Thaksin Supporters Claim 5.6m Signatures

[Insight]

FYI - The author of this article, John Le Fevre, is a well known red shirt sympathiser. Previously known on here as Photojourn.

Facts quoted in the OP to be taken with as much salt as a recent Bangkok Post poll.

/edit - attach best image I can find:

Then you clearly haven't read enough of what I've written.

Yeah, I had problems getting past the one titled "Thailand Prime Minister dead man walking as Asean leaders flee Pattaya"....

What next? Suthep Swims With The Fishes For Taking Leave...?

Edited August 2, 2009 by Insight

[rixalex]

And it leaves off the Songkran fomenting insurrection, LM, and rioting charges.

And the flight from justice / bail jumping charges too.

And just one more whilst we are at it.... surely he bears some responsiblity for the actions of the lawyers he paid to represent him who turned up with that lunchbox - after all, i truly don't believe they would have pulled such a stunt without him giving the nod.

Edited August 2, 2009 by rixalex

[jayboy]

Issuance of two and three-digit lottery tickets by the Government Lottery Bureau.

Damage to state: 37.790 billion baht. +

Care to explain exactly how the state was damaged here? I challenge you or anyone else to produce an articulate argued case.

Most reasonable observers felt on the lottery charge there was no damage at all, indeed the opposite.Nor was there any evidence of corruption.The offence was essentially one of illegal procedure, though not of course yet proved.I'm not condoning sloppy procedural practice by the way.

Of course if one takes one opinions from the Nation or Bangkok Post in a lazy uncritical way, I suppose it doesn't much matter.But to those who wonder about the list of charges consider this.If an outright lie such as the lottery charge is passed around as fact how unreliable might be the other charges.The reality is that the charges against Thaksin are rather thin.

[njpski]

The petition's signatures to be verified by Abhisit, but who will verify the verification process.

[brahmburgers]

Issuance of two and three-digit lottery tickets by the Government Lottery Bureau.

Damage to state: 37.790 billion baht. +

Care to explain exactly how the state was damaged here? I challenge you or anyone else to produce an articulate argued case.

Imagine this:

1. a nationwide lottery generating tens of billions of baht, with a relative pittance paid out to winners (happened in Thailand)

2. the proceeds from the lottery designated to pay for social needs, schools, etc. (happened in Thailand)

3. a three person troika assigned to oversee the lottery proceeds (happened in Thailand)

4. As it all happened during T's time as PM, guess who got himself appointed head of the 3-person committee? Yes, good guess. It was T himself.

If you connect the dots, you see how easy it was for T (who at that time had total grip on power) could take those tens of billions and spend them as he pleased. Perhaps there was some oversight in the sense that the money had to be spent on gov't projects. Who is someone like T going to spend it on if he can't put the dough into one of his numbered accounts overseas? Simple, he makes splashy payments to the constituencies that most support him. He even said as much publicly. So that's part of the equation why so many Issan residents, and those in C.Mai and the north still support him. They've seen how eager he is to rain money on them. They don't care where the money originated from or whether it was earmarked for other purposes. They see T handing them money, and they think he's the greatest.

Incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion that T himself reads and may even contribute to this forum. Don't get me wrong, I think that would be capital if he did so - and I fully believe in the open exchange of ideas. I would be v. surprised if some of his closest people don't follow and contribute to T.Visa discussions. In lieu of that, I challenge Mr. T or any of his associates to refute charges of illegally meddling with the lottery proceeds. Up to you, gang.

Edited August 3, 2009 by brahmburgers

[mc2]

Incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion that T himself reads and may even contribute to this forum.

haha , i think he would have better things to do with his time

[sriracha john]

Issuance of two and three-digit lottery tickets by the Government Lottery Bureau.

Damage to state: 37.790 billion baht. +

Care to explain exactly how the state was damaged here? I challenge you or anyone else to produce an articulate argued case.

Most reasonable observers felt on the lottery charge there was no damage at all, indeed the opposite.Nor was there any evidence of corruption.The offence was essentially one of illegal procedure, though not of course yet proved.I'm not condoning sloppy procedural practice by the way.

Of course if one takes one opinions from the Nation or Bangkok Post in a lazy uncritical way, I suppose it doesn't much matter.But to those who wonder about the list of charges consider this.If an outright lie such as the lottery charge is passed around as fact how unreliable might be the other charges.The reality is that the charges against Thaksin are rather thin.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thaksin-30-M...97.html&hl=

Thaksin And 30 Members Of His Cabinet Indicted, total of 47 indicted on a variety of charges

Meanwhile, the AEC panel probing the two-and three-digit lottery scam had found more evidence of irregularities in the use of funds earned from sales, AEC member Udom Fuangfung said.

The panel extended its investigation after finding the Social Development and Human Security Ministry had returned 700 million baht to the Government Lottery Office (GLO) and the Education Ministry had handed over several hundred million more, claiming the money was student grants between 2003-2004.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thaksin-Accu...24#entry1508124

15 Billion Baht of lottery proceeds misused, AEC says

Udom said the panel suspected irregularities. It believed that had the money been used in accordance with the law, the agencies would have exhausted the funds. The AEC will summon GLO officials over the unused money.

The committee reported that all 47 individuals were alleged to violate the 1974 Government Lottery Act for their involvement in the lottery scheme’s initiation and approving such lottery without authorization.

The group has also violated the 1948 Treasury Reserves Act for unauthorized spending of earned revenues from lottery sales along with breaching three other monetary laws by illegally acquired tax exemption privileges.

[fxe1200]

Issuance of two and three-digit lottery tickets by the Government Lottery Bureau.

Damage to state: 37.790 billion baht. +

Care to explain exactly how the state was damaged here? I challenge you or anyone else to produce an articulate argued case.

You can find more information here:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/07...er-government-l

If an outright lie such as the lottery charge is passed around as fact how unreliable might be the other charges.The reality is that the charges against Thaksin are rather thin.

The charges against are not thin at all, but due to the fact that massive corruption is involved, the conviction is not easy. Some possible witnesses will not speak, as they are involved in these scams as well, and gained high amounts of bribes. Evidence might have been destroyed by the winners of these cases, who sit in respective positions. This all is commonplace in Thailand and that really makes it difficult for the prosecutor to convict those criminals. How far Thaksin goes, to reach a verdict in his favour, is documented in the SNACKBOX case, when lawyers of Thaksin tried to bribe court officials with 2Mio. Baht, hidden in their snackboxes. All three lawyers were sentenced. Thaksin was not sentenced, because there was no evidence, that the 2Mio. came from him. That says it all.

[jayboy]

Issuance of two and three-digit lottery tickets by the Government Lottery Bureau.

Damage to state: 37.790 billion baht. +

Care to explain exactly how the state was damaged here? I challenge you or anyone else to produce an articulate argued case.

Imagine this:

1. a nationwide lottery generating tens of billions of baht, with a relative pittance paid out to winners (happened in Thailand)

2. the proceeds from the lottery designated to pay for social needs, schools, etc. (happened in Thailand)

3. a three person troika assigned to oversee the lottery proceeds (happened in Thailand)

4. As it all happened during T's time as PM, guess who got himself appointed head of the 3-person committee? Yes, good guess. It was T himself.

If you connect the dots, you see how easy it was for T (who at that time had total grip on power) could take those tens of billions and spend them as he pleased. Perhaps there was some oversight in the sense that the money had to be spent on gov't projects. Who is someone like T going to spend it on if he can't put the dough into one of his numbered accounts overseas? Simple, he makes splashy payments to the constituencies that most support him. He even said as much publicly. So that's part of the equation why so many Issan residents, and those in C.Mai and the north still support him. They've seen how eager he is to rain money on them. They don't care where the money originated from or whether it was earmarked for other purposes. They see T handing them money, and they think he's the greatest.

Incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion that T himself reads and may even contribute to this forum. Don't get me wrong, I think that would be capital if he did so - and I fully believe in the open exchange of ideas. I would be v. surprised if some of his closest people don't follow and contribute to T.Visa discussions. In lieu of that, I challenge Mr. T or any of his associates to refute charges of illegally meddling with the lottery proceeds. Up to you, gang.

As I expected, by way of interim response, no adequate description of Thaksin's alleged lottery charge.The sloppy and confused response above is more or less what I expected.It doesn't even mention the underground lottery which was at the heart of the problem.I suspect the poster hasn't even done his research and believes anti -Thaksin fervour is a substitute for intellectual rigour and a respect for the facts.Well I don't like Thaksin either but I equally don't like lies, propaganda and dishonesty.

[Koo82]

Hello, this shows how popular Thaksin is to the Thai people. The numbers are high for the amount of signatures, but do we know if all the signatures are from the correct people or real people? Maybe these people do not understand the law as written in this article, but it is like the elections in that maybe some people will get more money to sign on. Cheers.

News and information are spreading both yellow and red. People's understanding has developed a lot, unlike 10 years ago. People now are leading politicians sometimes. Those who think they can buy a vote for a few hundred Baht is outdated. If you doubt it, give money to people and ask them to vote for Democrat Party and see their response.

The reds are checking the petitions before they announce official number.

[Jingthing]

Incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion that T himself reads and may even contribute to this forum.

haha , i think he would have better things to do with his time

Like what? Go shopping at the mall?

The reds are checking the petitions before they announce official number.

The same group of violent thugs behind BLACK SONGKRAN. And we should trust them for one second exactly why?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Jingthing

[fxe1200]

As I expected, by way of interim response, no adequate description of Thaksin's alleged lottery charge.The sloppy and confused response above is more or less what I expected.It doesn't even mention the underground lottery which was at the heart of the problem.I suspect the poster hasn't even done his research and believes anti -Thaksin fervour is a substitute for intellectual rigour and a respect for the facts.Well I don't like Thaksin either but I equally don't like lies, propaganda and dishonesty.

Who cares? If Thaksin would be sentenced with just 50% of the charges, that would be enough for the rope. Anyhow, Thaksin is a criminal and this is not going to change, even if he wins that "lottery case", or comes back with a propaganda channel on TV.

He had been sentenced, he skipped bail, and if we look back a couple of years: Who ordered the "no mercy" war against drugs in Thailand, with around 2.500 possibly innocent people killed? Thaksin is dangerous and morally completely degenerated. If some people here in this forum can't see this, they do have my condolences.

Open your eyes! This advice applies also to those, who insist on their academic degrees, or trying to distinguish theirselves by using a famous formula as their nickname in this forum.

[Koo82]

Jingthing,

After Black Songkran, the reds were charged because they violated traffic law and had meetings of more than 5 persons. I don't understand why you call them thugs.

If you want to talk about buses, do you know the reds couldn't get near Government House but buses were driven in the area easily? Soldiers controlled the situation since 4am and thousands of soldiers and media were on BKK streets but no one could produce a photo of red shirts who hijacked buses.

If you want to talk about gas tankers, do you know the one parked at Pullman Kingpower Complex didn't raise any concern? Were the Kingpower Company and Pullman Hotel horrified because "the reds" threatened to blow up the tanker? Not at all. Only the one at Din Daeng worked but can you prove that the reds drove and parked there? All I can find about the tanker at Din Daeng is this video that CNN got in the morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUookwKLG5I

What's your comments when PAD occupied Government House 3 months and 2 main airports for a week?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Same tactic here again Koo, we are not talking about PAD - who will face their day in court - but of your reds. People died, accept it, apologise for it, pay for it.

[Jingthing]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

[Koo82]

As I expected, by way of interim response, no adequate description of Thaksin's alleged lottery charge.The sloppy and confused response above is more or less what I expected.It doesn't even mention the underground lottery which was at the heart of the problem.I suspect the poster hasn't even done his research and believes anti -Thaksin fervour is a substitute for intellectual rigour and a respect for the facts.Well I don't like Thaksin either but I equally don't like lies, propaganda and dishonesty.

Who cares? If Thaksin would be sentenced with just 50% of the charges, that would be enough for the rope. Anyhow, Thaksin is a criminal and this is not going to change, even if he wins that "lottery case", or comes back with a propaganda channel on TV.

He had been sentenced, he skipped bail, and if we look back a couple of years: Who ordered the "no mercy" war against drugs in Thailand, with around 2.500 possibly innocent people killed? Thaksin is dangerous and morally completely degenerated. If some people here in this forum can't see this, they do have my condolences.

Open your eyes! This advice applies also to those, who insist on their academic degrees, or trying to distinguish theirselves by using a famous formula as their nickname in this forum.

Becoming a "criminal" because he signed for his wife to buy a land . Seller was happy because they could sell. Buyer has no fault what so ever. But husband became criminal.

I don't like when reading 2,500 people were killed in during drug wars, but I don't have any sympathy for those who sell drugs. If your family had someone using drugs or your family member was killed because a drug user wanted money to buy drugs, you would love Khun Thaksin for this "no mercy" war. Now people say drugs can be bought 80 Baht per piece and you can buy any time. I don't know how true this statement is because I don't do drugs. Khun Thaksin said in his phone in that people who sell drugs and underground lottery were the first people who protested against Khun Thaksin. He made that lottery to be official and used the money to send students to study overseas. Many poor students never dream of good education let alone studying overseas.

I have opened my eyes after so many years getting one sided information. Those who bring benefits to people will get their votes. Those using guns and tanks can be governments but they never win people's hearts.

[Publicus]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

And this list is only a warmup. The complete list includes up to the present suggestions or threats by the Red Shirt mob instigating army units to move against army units. If true, this conflict has now gone to a new and extremely dangerous dimension.

[Jingthing]

The last post, a true classic. The lover of justice and democracy shamelessly rationalizing the extra judicial murders of thousands of Thai citizens WITHOUT TRIAL, almost all of these people POOR PEOPLE. at the same time rationalizing the richest man in Thailand CONVICTED IN A THAI COURT, running away from justice scott free. You couldn't make this stuff up. True believing, its kind of a disease.

[Jingthing]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

And this list is only a warmup. The complete list includes up to the present suggestions or threats by the Red Shirt mob instigating army units to move against army units. If true, this conflict has now gone to a new and extremely dangerous dimension.

Agreed. In any case the red shirt movement is a movement of VIOLENT STREET THUGS.

[hammered]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

And this list is only a warmup. The complete list includes up to the present suggestions or threats by the Red Shirt mob instigating army units to move against army units. If true, this conflict has now gone to a new and extremely dangerous dimension.

This power struggle is at a very unstable and dangerous level right now and things are unpredictable. I doubt there is a lot of trust out there right now

And we have the asset seizure case ongoing. That is a critical case.

[Koo82]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

I didn't see any molotov cocktails in any red meeting, at least in 4 big meetings I have gone to.

Abhisit and Suthep already left the Interior Ministry before the reds arrived on 12th April. Thai pbs has videos to prove it.

They only went inside the resort with ping pong bombs collected from the spot to ask Abhisit why the blues attacked them. Earlier, they were done with their submitting letter to the Summit and went back to Bangkok, but on their way out, the blues blocked their way and attacked them. Some reds were severely injured and were sent to hospital. If there'd been no blues, the Summit would have been done nicely. Tell me who controls those blues and why nothing is done to punish the blues.

"Murder of poor market workers"? Do you have anything to show me?

I only read in this forum a yellow killed a red instantly when thinking the reds shot Sondhi

Hatred towards those of different political colours reached alarming new heights last Saturday night when a man wielding a samurai sword stabbed and slashed a red-shirted woman to death and wounded another in Nakhon Ratchasima.

Other information I have was the reds in Chiangmail killed a yellow because yellows came in to ask for problems. Why didn't the yellows avoid the reds knowing Chiangmai is a strong red base?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Koo82

[frodo]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

Lest we forget pro-democracy fighters shutting down a parade in Chiang-Mai

Attacking police and damaging property due to an arrest of a gun carrying individual at the Chiang-Mai Airport.

What do we know, Jingthing. Our red sources on TV continually inform us that these people never carry weapons and are incapable of any violence or being thugs.

[Koo82]

Luckily I watched D-Station that day before it was closed. The man holding gun is a red leader. He showed the gun the reds took from Interior Ministry and said the reds were shot at IM.

Next someone can show a photo reds bringing guns that they took from soldiers on 12th April to Police and commented Police caught reds having guns

In your other 3 photos, 3 of them covered face. I don't deny many reds are violent, but I don't accept if you say "anyone caught wearing red is the reds". Don't you know there were many fake reds during Black Songkran? The real reds seldom cover face in April. Recently they do because of the flu.

[Siripon]

Kwanchai's mob attacked the PAD in the park in Udon last year with iron bars and staves. Red shirts attacked police and destroyed their pickups in Chiang Mai 2 weeks ago. The brutal killing of the father of the leader of the PAD in Chiang Mai last year.

[frodo]

Luckily I watched D-Station that day before it was closed. The man holding gun is a red leader. He showed the gun the reds took from Interior Ministry and said the reds were shot at IM.

Next someone can show a photo reds bringing guns that they took from soldiers on 12th April to Police and commented Police caught reds having guns

In your other 3 photos, 3 of them covered face. I don't deny many reds are violent, but I don't accept if you say "anyone caught wearing red is the reds". Don't you know there were many fake reds during Black Songkran? The real reds seldom cover face in April. Recently they do because of the flu.

Right! Which is it Koo? You say two things now. The guy is a leader and he say's this is the gun that was used to fire at the red shirts. The next sentence you say something different about the gun. Personally, I don't believe either story.

I am finally glad to see you admit for a change that "many reds are violent," and the photos say it all. If many reds are violent as you now admit, does that make them a thug?

[sriracha john]

You're right Koo... this isn't a Thai Red Shirt... it's American baseball pitcher that plays for the Cincinnati Reds demonstrating his "flaming fastball" pitch... while his fellow Cincinnati teammate below shows off his split-finger Molotov pitch...

btw, thank you for the dramatic shots of Reds in Action, frodo...

Edited August 3, 2009 by sriracha john

[jayboy]

As I expected, by way of interim response, no adequate description of Thaksin's alleged lottery charge.The sloppy and confused response above is more or less what I expected.It doesn't even mention the underground lottery which was at the heart of the problem.I suspect the poster hasn't even done his research and believes anti -Thaksin fervour is a substitute for intellectual rigour and a respect for the facts.Well I don't like Thaksin either but I equally don't like lies, propaganda and dishonesty.

Who cares? If Thaksin would be sentenced with just 50% of the charges, that would be enough for the rope. Anyhow, Thaksin is a criminal and this is not going to change, even if he wins that "lottery case", or comes back with a propaganda channel on TV.

He had been sentenced, he skipped bail, and if we look back a couple of years: Who ordered the "no mercy" war against drugs in Thailand, with around 2.500 possibly innocent people killed? Thaksin is dangerous and morally completely degenerated. If some people here in this forum can't see this, they do have my condolences.

As expected, at least on the lottery case, the charges just collapse when subjected to scrutiny.The line is usually, as in this case," ....I don't really understand the charges, can't be bothered or don't have the capacity to do any research...but the man's evil so must be guilty of something."Again the usual response in the absence of understanding or being able to make the case for the thin charges actually brought aginst him is to seek certain proof in Thaksin's drug war activities.But these charges have never been raised aginst him by the Thaksin hating elite possibly for the reasons that are known to every politically aware Thai.

[hammered]

I don't understand why you call them thugs.

Molotov cocktails.

Attacks on PM Abhisit's life.

Closing down the Asean summit by mob.

Murder of poor market workers.

Repeating threats to murder yellow sympathizers in red regions.

I didn't see any molotov cocktails in any red meeting, at least in 4 big meetings I have gone to.

Abhisit and Suthep already left the Interior Ministry before the reds arrived on 12th April. Thai pbs has videos to prove it.

They only went inside the resort with ping pong bombs collected from the spot to ask Abhisit why the blues attacked them. Earlier, they were done with their submitting letter to the Summit and went back to Bangkok, but on their way out, the blues blocked their way and attacked them. Some reds were severely injured and were sent to hospital. If there'd been no blues, the Summit would have been done nicely. Tell me who controls those blues and why nothing is done to punish the blues.

"Murder of poor market workers"? Do you have anything to show me?

I only read in this forum a yellow killed a red instantly when thinking the reds shot Sondhi

Hatred towards those of different political colours reached alarming new heights last Saturday night when a man wielding a samurai sword stabbed and slashed a red-shirted woman to death and wounded another in Nakhon Ratchasima.

Other information I have was the reds in Chiangmail killed a yellow because yellows came in to ask for problems. Why didn't the yellows avoid the reds knowing Chiangmai is a strong red base?

The yellow supporter killed in Chiang Mai was the father of a PAD local radio station DJ. He was basically dragged form his car, beaten, and shot. It was quite nasty. As the family lived and worked in Chiang Mai it would have been hard to avoid the reds who iirc had surrounded the radio station to protest and the man was killed when trying to leave the station

All murders in this polital power struggle should be condemned and those responsible should be brought to justice.

[hammered]

As I expected, by way of interim response, no adequate description of Thaksin's alleged lottery charge.The sloppy and confused response above is more or less what I expected.It doesn't even mention the underground lottery which was at the heart of the problem.I suspect the poster hasn't even done his research and believes anti -Thaksin fervour is a substitute for intellectual rigour and a respect for the facts.Well I don't like Thaksin either but I equally don't like lies, propaganda and dishonesty.

Who cares? If Thaksin would be sentenced with just 50% of the charges, that would be enough for the rope. Anyhow, Thaksin is a criminal and this is not going to change, even if he wins that "lottery case", or comes back with a propaganda channel on TV.

He had been sentenced, he skipped bail, and if we look back a couple of years: Who ordered the "no mercy" war against drugs in Thailand, with around 2.500 possibly innocent people killed? Thaksin is dangerous and morally completely degenerated. If some people here in this forum can't see this, they do have my condolences.

As expected, at least on the lottery case, the charges just collapse when subjected to scrutiny.The line is usually, as in this case," ....I don't really understand the charges, can't be bothered or don't have the capacity to do any research...but the man's evil so must be guilty of something."Again the usual response in the absence of understanding or being able to make the case for the thin charges actually brought aginst him is to seek certain proof in Thaksin's drug war activities.But these charges have never been raised aginst him by the Thaksin hating elite possibly for the reasons that are known to every politically aware Thai.

I totally agree that those charges should be brought. In fact if anyone wants to see demcoracy progress in Thailand it is vital that they are. Along with a whole rake of other stuff of course;)

[fxe1200]

Who cares? If Thaksin would be sentenced with just 50% of the charges, that would be enough for the rope. Anyhow, Thaksin is a criminal and this is not going to change, even if he wins that "lottery case", or comes back with a propaganda channel on TV.

He had been sentenced, he skipped bail, and if we look back a couple of years: Who ordered the "no mercy" war against drugs in Thailand, with around 2.500 possibly innocent people killed? Thaksin is dangerous and morally completely degenerated. If some people here in this forum can't see this, they do have my condolences.

Open your eyes! This advice applies also to those, who insist on their academic degrees, or trying to distinguish theirselves by using a famous formula as their nickname in this forum.

I don't like when reading 2,500 people were killed in during drug wars, but I don't have any sympathy for those who sell drugs. If your family had someone using drugs or your family member was killed because a drug user wanted money to buy drugs, you would love Khun Thaksin for this "no mercy" war.

That does not justify the killing of innocent people, those remarks remind me of the "Kristallnacht" back in 1938!