The Stock Market

[lannarebirth]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

I use to send emails to ASX in early days. Asking them things like 'why is my stock sold down by one share everyday? Its CLEARLY manipulated, Doesn't matter what counter bid I offer its automatically recalculated to close by one share?

have watched my stock go from 15c to 10c . ASX does NOTHING and has a standard reply email. The markets are ethical? please spare me... Have seen stocks capped until most stops triggered and margins called. EXT was a spectacular example collapsing from $5 to $2 in one day on no news before flying to $11. MANIPULATED!

Market takes no prisoners. I have learned along with the rest of the pack that a large order pulled as a critical support is about to be hit can and often does collapse the s/p making for a nice bounce. I have been stung many times playing by the rules. What rules?? its a joke. The problem are the BIG boys and the ASX`has a vested interest and needs them more than us. I dont see a solution when the ASX is the problem!

Zorro, the are no BIG boys in the ASX. Witha GDP lower than California, Texas, New York, Spain, Russia, etc. Less than half that of Italy. I see you just edge out Mexico.

I played in the Sydney Futures Market once upon a time and it is so thin I actually moved the Index. That's frightening. Hey anyway, best of luck.

[zorro1]

okay bigger boys with bigger $ and fancy expensive bot machines

Lanna Im just saying there are 2 sets of rules. Some posters are happy to be honest and manipulated, good luck to them they will need it.

Edited July 7, 2010 by zorro1

[badge]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

Oh c'mon. It's niot a matter of being smart enough, it just doesn't work over the long haul. Even if it works for you 3 times in a row, the fourth might blow you up.

[...]

I disagree.

The gentle coercion or exploitation of algos Ive mentioned previously, involves taking no directional view on a market, and only a very brief time spent in the market, and thus at risk.

I know people that have built fortunes turning markets, and continue to do so today.

[sokal]

There is a certain organization - called the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) who regulate trading of all financial Markets (including Commodities). If you are "in error" of SEC Regulations you can be fined - or your trading "priviledges" can be restricted - IF AND ONLY IF THEY CAN PROVE YOUR SPECIFIC ERRORS.

As Badge correctly points out - there are "Market Forces" which you will have to learn to deal with and accept (or better - understand) if you aim to make a living as Trader. Blaming "manipulators" on your lack of understanding will get you "0" results.

You sound like the CEO of Goldman Sachs

There is a reason Goldman had a 100% perfect trading record last quarter. Good luck trading with these corrupt <deleted>

Go Holland

[badge]

If the ASX actually enforced this law by having a no cancel for the day ( your locked in ) or at least a brokerage fee if you change your mind then we may actually have a 'fair market" this along with a total ban against algo trading may restore some faith.[...]

So you can only place orders, cannot cancel them?? Preposterous. Im sorry, I dont sit down each day and decide what orders I will place and thats that; I react.

Algo trading is so misunderstood, often lumped in with HFT, black boxes etc

HFT - does not dictate direction, merely exacerbates, by fractions of a tick. When I place a trade Im usually looking for more than a fraction of a tick, so has no effect on me whatsoever.

Black boxes/Algos - Could be anything from buying until noon each day and selling until 2pm, buying every 2 minutes, buying each time more than 50 contracts hit the offer, buying each time 2000 contracts join the bid, buying if the skies blue... Can dictate direction, but will be trades any human can make, and thus a null point for other traders.

[zorro1]

If the ASX actually enforced this law by having a no cancel for the day ( your locked in ) or at least a brokerage fee if you change your mind then we may actually have a 'fair market" this along with a total ban against algo trading may restore some faith.[...]

So you can only place orders, cannot cancel them?? Preposterous. Im sorry, I dont sit down each day and decide what orders I will place and thats that; I react.

Algo trading is so misunderstood, often lumped in with HFT, black boxes etc

HFT - does not dictate direction, merely exacerbates, by fractions of a tick. When I place a trade Im usually looking for more than a fraction of a tick, so has no effect on me whatsoever.

Black boxes/Algos - Could be anything from buying until noon each day and selling until 2pm, buying every 2 minutes, buying each time more than 50 contracts hit the offer, buying each time 2000 contracts join the bid, buying if the skies blue... Can dictate direction, but will be trades any human can make, and thus a null point for other traders.

Badge have you ever placed an order and then canceled just before being hit? Thats illegal. There are different types of bots. Some with more illiquid stock if selling are unbeatable and often collapse an S/p with the sole intention of buying back cheaper/ Me and you can not trade the fractional amounts the bot does putting us at a disadvantage. A bot tapping into the buy can be devastating. Thats not an even playing field in my book

Edited July 7, 2010 by zorro1

[Abrak]

okay bigger boys with bigger $ and fancy expensive bot machines

Lanna Im just saying there are 2 sets of rules. Some posters are happy to be honest and manipulated, good luck to them they will need it.

Big boys don't play penny stocks.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Abrak

[zorro1]

Speaking of bots here is another traders view posted today on hot copper. Its regarding a stock called MEO which I hold. for 5 months it has been tapped down from 60c to 27c every day without fail extinguishing any rally start. I hold in the 30'S

bot virus attacks (TrevTheRev)

Like a diseased rat nibbling at the SP . No wonder everybody hates them & wants them eradicated.

They should be charged per trade like everybody else, which would be one more step towards reducing market manipulation.

If we could only vote them out of existence, There must be some way to get rid of this disgusting , vulgar practise .

But no , it's just another form of legalised criminal corruption , it will never change. Just be aware of it & use it to your advantage, if you can.

Life is never ever fare, but you can be luck sometimes.

TTR

[zorro1]

okay bigger boys with bigger $ and fancy expensive bot machines

Lanna Im just saying there are 2 sets of rules. Some posters are happy to be honest and manipulated, good luck to them they will need it.

Big boys don't play penny stocks.

Thats true. I used to hold a lot of mid caps and the big boys do play them. At least with penny I have a little more control (in my mind at least )

Only hold 1 mid cap, Meo .

[badge]

Badge have you ever placed an order and then canceled just before being hit? Thats illegal. There are different types of bots. Some with more illiquid stock if selling are unbeatable and often collapse an S/p with the sole intention of buying back cheaper/ Me and you can not trade the fractional amounts the bot does putting us at a disadvantage. A bot tapping into the buy can be devastating. Thats not an even playing field in my book

Its not illegal at all, as mentioned previously; 'When the facts change, I change my mind'.

A bot is a very basic algo, that is told by a human trader to sell XXXX amount of a stock, at XXX price, or by a certain time, or on an alternate tick etc. Its not a case of being 'beatable', its simply someone buying/selling in tranches as opposed to 1 or 2 single orders, presumably because the order book couldnt handle the volume without the price moving alot.

They obviously dont wish to collapse an S/p either, thereby giving themselves worse price fills? Yet lets pretend your right momentarily, why not simply buy once theyve collapsed the S/p? Or why not do it yourself?

I can trade any fraction the exchange allows, theres no secret increments for 'big boys'. If that were the case, why not pay $20k p.a. and become a member of the exchange, like the 'big boys'?

Posting the derision of other young ladies crying foul doesnt offer any support to very basic, erroneous concepts either, or as I liek to refer to them, excuses

Next.

[badge]

Speaking of bots here is another traders view posted today on hot copper. Its regarding a stock called MEO which I hold. for 5 months it has been tapped down from 60c to 27c every day without fail extinguishing any rally start. I hold in the 30'S

bot virus attacks (TrevTheRev)

Like a diseased rat nibbling at the SP . No wonder everybody hates them & wants them eradicated.

They should be charged per trade like everybody else, which would be one more step towards reducing market manipulation.

If we could only vote them out of existence, There must be some way to get rid of this disgusting , vulgar practise .

But no , it's just another form of legalised criminal corruption , it will never change. Just be aware of it & use it to your advantage, if you can.

Life is never ever fare, but you can be luck sometimes.

TTR

...And in 5 months you havent realised you should have sold at 60c? Or bought at 27c?

[zorro1]

Speaking of bots here is another traders view posted today on hot copper. Its regarding a stock called MEO which I hold. for 5 months it has been tapped down from 60c to 27c every day without fail extinguishing any rally start. I hold in the 30'S

bot virus attacks (TrevTheRev)

Like a diseased rat nibbling at the SP . No wonder everybody hates them & wants them eradicated.

They should be charged per trade like everybody else, which would be one more step towards reducing market manipulation.

If we could only vote them out of existence, There must be some way to get rid of this disgusting , vulgar practise .

But no , it's just another form of legalised criminal corruption , it will never change. Just be aware of it & use it to your advantage, if you can.

Life is never ever fare, but you can be luck sometimes.

TTR

...And in 5 months you havent realised you should have sold at 60c? Or bought at 27c?

didnt buy at 60c. Whats with the cryptic, just say it man, what are you saying?

[zorro1]

Badge have you ever placed an order and then canceled just before being hit? Thats illegal. There are different types of bots. Some with more illiquid stock if selling are unbeatable and often collapse an S/p with the sole intention of buying back cheaper/ Me and you can not trade the fractional amounts the bot does putting us at a disadvantage. A bot tapping into the buy can be devastating. Thats not an even playing field in my book

Its not illegal at all, as mentioned previously; 'When the facts change, I change my mind'.

A bot is a very basic algo, that is told by a human trader to sell XXXX amount of a stock, at XXX price, or by a certain time, or on an alternate tick etc. Its not a case of being 'beatable', its simply someone buying/selling in tranches as opposed to 1 or 2 single orders, presumably because the order book couldnt handle the volume without the price moving alot.

They obviously dont wish to collapse an S/p either, thereby giving themselves worse price fills? Yet lets pretend your right momentarily, why not simply buy once theyve collapsed the S/p? Or why not do it yourself?

I can trade any fraction the exchange allows, theres no secret increments for 'big boys'. If that were the case, why not pay $20k p.a. and become a member of the exchange, like the 'big boys'?

Posting the derision of other young ladies crying foul doesnt offer any support to very basic, erroneous concepts either, or as I liek to refer to them, excuses

Next.

Badge dont know how long you have traded but you come across as a tad naive.

They obviously dont wish to collapse an S/p either, thereby giving themselves worse price fills?

Lets take a real case scenario. and there are many

Steven Dattels takes on RIO in a bidding war for EXT and together they drive the price from 50c to $2 and then momentum takes over and everyone wants a piece. He now holds x million shares average $2

Share shoots to nearly $5 in a few months. Then the BOT appears . He is selling down his holding taking profit relentlessly triggering stops. BOt stops (at 1.98 , I bought at $2.40) and he aggressively buys again and fact is it went to $11 in a few months after.

summary

BOT triggers stops punters lose a fortune margin calls etc

dattels takes his PROFIT and BUYS buys it all back on market sending the s/p through the roof

dattels wins both ways , punters lose big time. MANIPULATION

I sold my shares at $3.90 Buggah

Me and you badge can not control or out bid this bot. IM Surprised you need this explained?

Edited July 8, 2010 by zorro1

[zorro1]

Badge you said this

"I can trade any fraction the exchange allows, theres no secret increments for 'big boys'. If that were the case, why not pay $20k p.a. and become a member of the exchange, like the 'big boys'?"

your kidding right? you can place a 1 share trade? what platform are you using and what are you paying? You cant do that but big boys can

20k? badge your missing the point, mom n pops dont have that sort of money or the money to run it , thats the reason we are disadvantaged.

Edited July 8, 2010 by zorro1

[BlackJack]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

[Abrak]

Zorro,

The 'ramp and dump' strategy you describe you may think of 'manipulation' or 'unethical' or simply stock market Darwinism.

The first point though is that it is based on 'real' orders and not 'phony' ones. (Of course, and here it does get 'dodgy', it is often the case that the actual volumes arent 'real' on the basis that a Group of investors might just be passing stocks between themselves to give the illusion of volume.)

However the success of the strategy is based on the principle that after the stock has doubled and the volume has gone up 5x, the stock 'gains its own momentum'. So new investors come in the stock goes higher volume increases and the 'manipulators' 'dump'. It actually doesnt bother me much because those 'new investors' who bought simply because the stock has doubled and the volume has increased 5x are really too stupid to be investing in stocks in the first place. (Especially 'manipulated' penny stocks on margin.)

I do however, agree with you that 'market closing' in the last 30 seconds of trade is pretty irritating and silly. They stopped that in Thailand by holding a 5 minute 'auction' after trading is closed to determine the closing price.

Actually if you wish to ramp a stock and make money, the first rule of 'ramping' is to find a significantly undervalued stock that is worth ramping.

[Parvis]

"(Especially 'manipulated' penny stocks on margin.)"

Perhaps I still live in the Ice ages - but - since when are penny stocks "marginable"?????????????????.

[zorro1]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

I had a lot of KCN at $2.50..sold out way to early but 30%-40% gains to good to walk away from. Nobody talks stock much here. Super traders always win without disclosure. I did talk about and posted my holdings and what I paid for them, there halfway in the thread somewhere. No one else did though

[zorro1]

Zorro,

The 'ramp and dump' strategy you describe you may think of 'manipulation' or 'unethical' or simply stock market Darwinism.

The first point though is that it is based on 'real' orders and not 'phony' ones. (Of course, and here it does get 'dodgy', it is often the case that the actual volumes arent 'real' on the basis that a Group of investors might just be passing stocks between themselves to give the illusion of volume.)

However the success of the strategy is based on the principle that after the stock has doubled and the volume has gone up 5x, the stock 'gains its own momentum'. So new investors come in the stock goes higher volume increases and the 'manipulators' 'dump'. It actually doesnt bother me much because those 'new investors' who bought simply because the stock has doubled and the volume has increased 5x are really too stupid to be investing in stocks in the first place. (Especially 'manipulated' penny stocks on margin.)

I do however, agree with you that 'market closing' in the last 30 seconds of trade is pretty irritating and silly. They stopped that in Thailand by holding a 5 minute 'auction' after trading is closed to determine the closing price.

Actually if you wish to ramp a stock and make money, the first rule of 'ramping' is to find a significantly undervalued stock that is worth ramping.

"So new investors come in the stock goes higher volume increases and the 'manipulators' 'dump'. It actually doesnt bother me much because those 'new investors' who bought simply because the stock has doubled and the volume has increased 5x are really too stupid to be investing in stocks in the first place"

I agree in general but those that weren't stopped did go on to double their money at $11 in a very short period in this one assuming they all sold at the top its trading at $6.50 now they still in front. 2 individuals held 2 million shares at 20c for 5 years and still post today. One sold at $10 the other still holding. Obscene amounts

[Abrak]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

I had a lot of KCN at $2.50..sold out way to early but 30%-40% gains to good to walk away from. Nobody talks stock much here. Super traders always win without disclosure. I did talk about and posted my holdings and what I paid for them, there halfway in the thread somewhere. No one else did though

As I understand it, a listing or sale is part of their license. Thais wont like it because it is a foreign controlled company and foreigners wont buy it because their is no room on the foreign board.

[Abrak]

BTW, I dont know if anyone has seen this but it is very funny....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-20/kingsgate-may-raise-600-million-from-thai-unit-ipo-financial-review-says.html

Presumably they meant $60m.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Abrak

[nakachalet]

zorro1

your ref page is nonexsiting.... as was reported at 100708 thurs at 18:50....

perhaps, it is a typo....

Time to talk about the markets again since we have "blood on the streets"

Who is ready for the plunge? As of Friday we have completed the 2nd biggest rally in U.S stock history. My position has been strong buy since November 2008 and have a very substantial holding

Here are a few charts on gold, silver, etc and more importantly where the DOW is heading. The charts arnt mine but this guy knows his stuff

http://docs.google.c...hq6g_89c9d2q3f7

[nakachalet]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

I had a lot of KCN at $2.50..sold out way to early but 30%-40% gains to good to walk away from. Nobody talks stock much here. Super traders always win without disclosure. I did talk about and posted my holdings and what I paid for them, there halfway in the thread somewhere. No one else did though

zorro1

with all due respect....

what you said is just not true.... this attached summary has also been posted a week or so ago..... for the month of june 2010....

and i again agree with you wholeheartedly that more traders, if and when they have some unengaged time.... should post some of their trades....

and i believe only a handful would be willing to post their month end summary.... for one reason or another....

it is just humanly virtually impossible to have winning trades every session.... imho....

just do not let your irrational emotion overrides your trading plans.... cheers everyone.... :jap:

Edited July 8, 2010 by nakachalet

[zorro1]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

BlackJack

you may have lucked out with your KCN entry. The chart shows a change in momentum with a yellow buy alert

triangle just formed, this needs to be confirmed with a green triangle for a safer entry however both stochastic and macd are starting to turn up although not crossed yet

[Abrak]

The BOI says Thailands in great shape and getting better except for some street fires recently.

Is anyone trading Thai stocks or am I in the wrong forum.

I bought into ASX KCN Kingsgate (Thailand gold mine) recently and they have a Thai sub that may do well when they have their IPO

I had a lot of KCN at $2.50..sold out way to early but 30%-40% gains to good to walk away from. Nobody talks stock much here. Super traders always win without disclosure. I did talk about and posted my holdings and what I paid for them, there halfway in the thread somewhere. No one else did though

zorro1

with all due respect....

what you said is just not true.... this attached summary has also been posted a week or so ago..... for the month of june 2010....

and i again agree with you wholeheartedly that more traders, if and when they have some unengaged time.... should post some of their trades....

and i believe only a handful would be willing to post their month end summary.... for one reason or another....

it is just humanly virtually impossible to have winning trades every session.... imho....

just do not let your irrational emotion overrides your trading plans.... cheers everyone.... :jap:

To be honest, I cant think of a single person, other than maybe your wife, who would be interested in your open positions at the end of June. If you are looking for investment advice, I dont think this is the best place to come.

P.S. Although as you have started I would like to see your latest bank account statements.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Abrak

[badge]

Zorro - Ive previously addressed all the points you raise and have no inclination to repeat myself.

Bonne Chance.

[zorro1]

LOL badge doesnt want to talk and Arbrak thinks its wrong to discuss stock on a stock thread. Leave you guys to it, this thread way to HI-SO for lil ol me

[Abrak]

LOL badge doesnt want to talk and Arbrak thinks its wrong to discuss stock on a stock thread. Leave you guys to it, this thread way to HI-SO for lil ol me

Actually I don't think it is wrong to discuss stocks but this is a 'stockmarket' thread rather than a stock thread.

Really I just think they should be separate threads. More importantly I don't see the relevance of posting your historic positions and dealings. A stock thread should be about what you think you should be buying or selling now. As a final thought I am not entirely convinced that anyone is even interested in that. flying once accused me of not giving any investment ideas, so I did post a couple on a different thread. They were stocks that both went up and I reiterated buying them. One has risen 4 fold in 4 months since I mentioned it. But nobody was either interested or even paid attention. btw it doesnt bother me, my whole point to Flying at the time is that they would mean nothing to anyone and would be of no interest. So in even a stock thread I don't really think people are interested in other peoples ideas, they are certainly not interested in their current positions, historic dealings and it hardly seems likely that anyone has the vaguest interest in individual Aussie penny stocks in a stockmarket thread.

You always have a slight logical disconnect between daily movements of the Dow and the fact that you only trade penny stocks.

[Parvis]

"You always have a slight logical disconnect between daily movements of the Dow and the fact that you only trade penny stocks."

I am not sure if anyone is interested/able to track/predict the movement of the Dow - or is even aware of the potential.

Individuals talk about doubling/tripling or more in 2-3 month or 5 years. But they don't appear to be aware that you could have tripled in 3 days - since 7-06 - in a StockMarket Index. Perhaps this is beyond the capability of individuals in this tread - and I would be interested to hear to the contrary. Or perhaps individuals feel this is impossible.

So - what is the next movement of the Dow? - Up ofcourse - is it tradeable? - sure if your timing is good - but you should already be in since 1.5 hours ago - or not yet be out (since 7-06).

Edited July 8, 2010 by Parvis

[coolhandjoe]

Who would buy BP shares right now?