Merchant Of Death To Learn Fate Today

[Lancelot]

Using your example above if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and then moved to Thailand it would be perfectly legal to extradite him to Sweden as murder is a crime in both Sweden and Thailand. To compare this to the current situation if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and had then moved to Thailand I would assume the Thai courts would not allow him to be extradited to the USA if he wasn't a US citizen or murdered a US citizen.

OK Orac, point taken.

Lets put the shoe on another foot. Suppose the Russian had supplied arms to the insurgents in Southern Thailand, causing many casualties. Later he is apprehended by Thai security agents in the USA, but the US judicial system rules that he can not be extradited to Thailand.

I doubt the Thais would be happy with that decision.

[RKASA]

"In this situation, the US definitely hasn't played hardball. They rather naively left the issue to a Thai court. I am amazed they didn't just run him straight to the airport and head straight to the US."

We have gone back to the good ol Jimmy Carter days of even nice guys can win.  I am looking forward to things going completely bottom up.  

[Lancelot]

In this situation, the US definitely hasn't played hardball. They rather naively left the issue to a Thai court. I am amazed they didn't just run him straight to the airport and head straight to the US.

Agreed, they respected the sovereignty of their Thai "ally" and...

[fsuthai]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

That is so typical of the brain-washed, sanctimonious, "my country right or wrong" American bull anal-secretion, of 'our' generation...I'm an American septuagenarian also. I think nearly all of us once believed Americans were heroes and the country was "a beacon of hope" for the oppressed masses. Its taken me nearly 50 years to finally learn the rest of the story! It's mostly been "smoke and mirrors". While the text books and civics teachers were telling us how fortunate we were to be Americans (and we definitely were fortunate!), nobody said much about lingering racism (brown, black and yellow), growing fascism and empire building, ruthless exploitation of other countries native populations and resources [read: Confessions of an Economic Hitman...probably available online with a Google search], extreme religious intolerance, hate-mongering, and political meddling in State affairs, and, probably most importantly, the increasing erosion of our Constitutional guarantees of civil rights and liberties---which has obviously been approved by the ruling elite, funded by our avaricious, profit-driven, amoral corporations, and enacted by our "out-of-control" CIA criminals and thugs! I'm not anti-American, per se, but I'm definitely anti-American global conquest and 'new world order' plans!

I personally think Viktor Bout deserves prison time for some of his activities (but, maybe not). America has become a militaristic bully, is the world's biggest supplier (and user) of weapons of war, and, internationally, the most lawless nation in the world and biggest de-stablelizer of world peace! Bout did not break any Thai laws, so far as I know, and I'm happy that Thailand did not 'crumble' to the usual pressures (& probable expectations) of U.S. officials (DoJ & CIA). Even Bout doesn't deserve to be handed over to those goons that practice "enhanced interrogation" techniques, illegal renditions, no habeas corpus, and no legal redress. And, by the way, the U.S. federal prison system definitely still has some "country club" examples but those are generally reserved for a token crooked politician or other high ranking official that gets sloppy in his/her illegal-for-profit machinations. Viktor would likely go to "Gitmo" until he gave the CIA his international customer contact list and then be rehabilitated into the witness protection program where his new life/identity could be funded by U.S. taxpayers!

Anyhow, do a little research on your country before you start criticizing true patriots that dare to condem bad U.S.A. foreign (and domestic) policies! I still have a little faith left in the American people. Most, I believe, still know the difference between right and wrong...they just don't know enough about the horrible atrocities being committed in our names, by our govt.! {Oops, I probably just got added to the "terrorist watch list" by implicating the only terror group with "black ops" teams capable of remote controlling airplanes into the WTC towers, slamming a missile into the Pentagon & claiming it was hit by a passenger jet, imploding the towers with nano-thermite (only made by the U.S. military), and the audacity to claim that some muslims unable to fly a Cessna trainer well, could have accomplished such a fatal attack.} But, no matter, I love living in Thailand and have no immediate travel plans!

Just my humble opinion (and some conjecture), of course! Peace!

[clemine]

Thanks tv for such an entertaining morning! Just shows how bored I am.

Anyway some interesting sites of Victor's.

Victors Web Site

Some interesting reading here (the link on the site is broken)

Victors Airfreight Co

Always 2 sides to any story...

[fsuthai]

Nice to see you guys are all getting along so well......Thaivisa falang harmony at it's best....

I'm not an American but every once in a while I just get tired of semi-literate morons from the UK and EU countries when they get on this anti yank kick!!

When shit happens in the world and you can't handle it (which is almost always) who do you turn to?? USA.. When the USA gets involved you bitch and complain about yankee bullies. You people are always against everything....what exactly are you for??? The EU has lost the balls to stand up to anything...all they are capable off is talking.....study groups...protesting with bill boards and finger pointing when somebody else (usually the US) tries to do something about it. American foreign policy has often been flawed.....bad decisions have been made....but at least they try .....If the EU would shut up whining and help out....maybe we would start to get somewhere. Fat chance

And somebody suggested the UN should deal with this arms dealing thug!! The fuc_king UN is just the worlds most expensive debating society....

That's my two cents worth as an objective non-American...... Whine on...................

I wonder if some of you American haters were forced to choose between what Americans want for the world and what some of the regimes you seem to sympathize with want for the world........who would you run to??? Stupid question.....you could never be honest with your answer.......it's not just the Thai's who can't stand to lose face.. I wonder how many of you anti-American whiners have every set foot in the US.... I have spent a good deal of time there....and lots of time in the UK and EU countries too. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind which I would choose if I had to.....even taking into account the sometimes bad policy decisions made by US governments at times......find me a country that does not have bad government decisions!!!!

Sorry Vicco, you have a weak argument going there but thanks for trying! There are still a few good things about the USA...just can't think of many right off hand. You are right about whether most westerners would rather live in a world dominated by American imperialism or a middle eastern country like Afghanistan or Iran, dominated by Sharia law and forced muslim religious practice. However, most of us also prefer not to have to make such a choice! Screw the muslims and the christians. Both of those mystical belief systems want to control the world and will kill anyone standing in their way. (Buddhism, more a philosophy than a religion, is okay so long as they don't get 'pushy'.)

Those of us that prefer to 'question authority' and criticize bad US foreign policy would just like to see America become a good neighbor for a change and work for world peace rather than the true "merchant of death" it has been since Vietnam! We keep hoping to see such changes but, unfortunately, the new boss seems the same as the old boss! Maybe we can get someone like Kucinich or Paul elected next time; we need someone concerned about keeping America strong (not aggressive) and compassionate.

Viktor Bout was the victim of a lousily conducted 'sting' operation and should be allowed to return to his home, not handed over to CIA operatives, that do their own drug smuggling and arms sales to pay for "black ops" budgets...and who don't give a dam_n whether he is guilty as charged or whether they break international laws in his capture. It's a good decision by the Thai court IMHO.

[PETDCAT]

I am so proud of Thailand for standing up to the arrogant self righteous USA. Bravo to Thai Justice, a fair verdict…… I cant believe how many people are actually saying this. What a load of crap. What planet are you living on? Do you really think they are letting Him go for the reasons they are giving? This is the Land of Coups. If they like a law they will use it when and how they please. I am sure they were only too happy to grab headlines and face when He was captured. The USA was probably just as thrilled about having Him held in the Bangkok Hilton for 5 months. Why are they letting Him go? Good question.No doubt Victor backed the Brinks truck up to the courthouse but was that alone enough? Maybe. I would image with Victors past and His bank account He has a lot of influence in some parts of Thailand. By using the always flexible interpretation of Thai law, The Courts have found a way to play both sides. Collect cold hard cash from the Russkie and keep Him off the streets for 5 months for the Americans. Maybe the Americans really wanted Him to be extradited and maybe not. I doubt this decision was made entirely by Thailand.Greed is a selfish master and putting Victor in the Bangkok Hilton may have been a bad move. An arms dealer sitting in prison,could you imagine the new friends He has now? Would anyone be surprised if His product starts showing up on Thai soil? Sum num na. This is Thailand and things are not what they appear to be.

If the main concern was for legal reasons as given,why was this arrest allowed to take place at all?

[capt_canada42]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Do you have any idea what he is accused of? What about the liberties of the thousands he alleged to be responsible for the death of? However I don't see why usa has to continue to be the worlds self appointed police, the UN should really get there finger out and take control.

You at the top are an idiot the guys who supplies the weapons is almost as guilty as the guys who uses them.

The UN is useless because the 3rd world countries and first world countries have tied everything up so it has no power its hands are tied on everything.. Example the US under Bush would not release money for the fight against Aids in Africa because these countries supported abortion. There is too much politics attached to what happens in UN thus it has become useless.

[MUYTHAI]

Much as I hate to agree with TAWP (by that I mean on the principles and ethics of arms dealing), I do believe he has a point. If this guy didnt sell the arms then most likely the big arms companies would have done. When it comes to the sale of arms there is absolutely no ethics involved whatsoever. The CEOs of the major arms companies positively pray for continued war and death and destruction throughout the world. Only 25 years ago a group of freedom fighters were supplied with enough arms by the US,UK and France to last 100 years. They were the Mujahadeen, fighting against the Russians in Afghanistan. Their leader was a young guy called Osama Bin Laden. When objectives change he goes from freedom fighter to terrorist, I wonder who supplies him now?? You reap what you sow! How many of our troops have been killed in Iraq by US,UK and French bullets? We provided ALL the chemical weapons to Saddam which he used to attack the Kurds.

It is unfair to simply try this one man. The solution is simple. Get all of the worlds arms dealers in to a football stadium, lock the doors and then Napalm the f*****s!

I agree 100%. This guy is nothing compared to the US government and US arms manufactures and dealers who has been arming and training (School of the Americas, etc.) mass murdering ruling dicatators, right-wing death squads, "terrorist" groups (who the US calls "freedom fighters") for over 50 years now and still is doing so. Will these perps ever stand trial. Unfortunately not. If the USA China, and Russia can arm thugs all over the planet, why should this guy not be able to. Simple... because he is a small fish with no international political power and no false propaganda which most of the ignorant masses buy into.

The right-wing paramilitary death squads in Colombia were backed by the Colombian government and USA.. The paramilitary death squads purposely killed more civilians than FARC. And the article uses FARC as a terrorist example. What about the PDSs? Who armed them? The USA did. Shows where the bias lies.

I agree... napalm ALL the arms-manufacturing death merchants! Destroy all weapons now. Let people use different fighting styles (martial arts, etc.) if they feel the need to fight. It would be a peaceful and interesting experiment. Well, obviously not peaceful for for the death merchant legal arms manufacturers and dealers who would get a taste of their own medicine instead of innocent civilians who have been massacred in the 10s of millions in the last 70 years.

[RKASA]

"change he goes from freedom fighter to terrorist"

This is not that uncommon.  Germany helped England fight the freedom fighters in America and the French helped the freedom fighters.   Which would have been reported today as nothing more then the imperialist fighting each other and the Americans were just duped. The French were nothing more then arms agents and had a lot of CAI type black ops and the English funded everything with dope from China.

Have you ever played the game of risk.  Its best to plan your attack on your friend, before he attacks you, its not nice but you survive the war.  

[fridgemagnet]

Well - the Israelis just shoot people like him - remember the poor sod who designed Saddam's supergun. Not nice, but effective.

Perhaps Thailand would be a less unstable country if the military had offed Toxic.........

[LaoPo]

Bout is not a hero, nor a nice guy, he is an amoral SOB, and I have no sorrow for his plight.

I fully agree with you!

Not a single arms dealer is a hero nor a nice guy and that includes ALL private individuals, companies and governments selling arms and weapons, including the USA*, the largest arms producer in the world next to Russia, Britain, Germany and China.

They're all SOB's, aren't they ?

* The United States is also the top supplier of weapons to the developing world, accounting for around 36% of worldwide weapons sales, followed by Russia, Britain, Germany and China.[6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

I'm surprised that there's so much fuzz about one single arms dealer, this time from Russia, in an industry that has a yearly turnover of $ 1 Trillion.....

It seems to me that in this "Bout" case the US administration/DEA has the world's entire butter supply stock on top of it's head....producing and selling $ 360 Billion of that 1 Trillion

World's largest arms exporters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry..._arms_exporters

Mr. Bout, IMO, is just a small piece in a very large world wide secret puzzle and he probably act, transport and sell weapons with the permission of the Kremlin; aren't there hundreds of such -smaller- entities, worldwide and also in the US, acting as cover ups for the various Administrations, where ever ?

Like I said, they're ALL SOB's.

LaoPo

[Grey11]

I joined Thai Visa appx. three years ago. One of the major reasons was to use it as yet another avenue to keep abreast of the news in Thailand, a country my wife was born in 55 years ago. Until then I had no idea of the strong hatred that (it seems) the vast majority of Europeans have for Americans. A few people I know have learned a little of that dislike on visits to England & France. As I learned the extent of that hatred reading the Thai Visa posts each day I have since tried to relay that to anybody I ran into in the U.S. (a huge country with many differences in different states and regions). Seldom in my life have I heard Americans criticise Europeans. So they have no idea the hatred Europeans have for them - even though most Europeans know no Americans nor have they visited the U.S. except in such places as New York or Calif. where most Americans would say do not represent the vast majority of Americans politically or morally. I have invited every American I know to join Thai Visa to see what Europeans think of them and then decide if they want to spend their money in Europe. Sure, Europe can do without American tourists just as the U.S. can do without European tourists. I now live permanently in Phuket but, through the internet, continue to try to inform Americans what they are thought of by Europeans. My father was wounded and almost killed fighting in Europe and tens of thousands of American soldiers were killed and wounded badly and suffered the rest of their lives fighting in that war in which they thought they were helping their allies. Many Americans were isolationists (and I wish the country was isolationist today) and tried to stay out of the war but FDR was ready when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. He had been arming the British for more than a year. Had I been Pres. and had my way, I would have stayed out of the war and quickly established trade relations with Germany as soon as it was over.

[newsummerday]

...I agree... napalm ALL the arms-manufacturing death merchants! ...

You will need to purchase napalm first...

[Orac]

Using your example above if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and then moved to Thailand it would be perfectly legal to extradite him to Sweden as murder is a crime in both Sweden and Thailand. To compare this to the current situation if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and had then moved to Thailand I would assume the Thai courts would not allow him to be extradited to the USA if he wasn't a US citizen or murdered a US citizen.

OK Orac, point taken.

Lets put the shoe on another foot. Suppose the Russian had supplied arms to the insurgents in Southern Thailand, causing many casualties. Later he is apprehended by Thai security agents in the USA, but the US judicial system rules that he can not be extradited to Thailand.

I doubt the Thais would be happy with that decision.

Interesting scenario but why would the US refuse extradition as in this case as there would clearly be a crime commited against the sovreign territory of Thailand. The problem with the original situation is that the US has enacted laws that are not restricted to within their own sovreign territory or crimes against its own citizens - a closer analogy would be for Thailand to try and apply lesse majesty laws is the US and seek extradition of US citizens which would clearly not go down very well.

[Bolo]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

Stop waving your little flag around buddy.

We are not anti-American. We just don't like how the Americans meddle in affairs all around the world and use their clout to do whatever they please.

The US only entered WW2 when they themselves felt threatened. There was absolutely nothing altruistic about it, so get off your high horse.

If they'd entered the war when they should have it would have been a much shorter war.

Churchhill begged us to help if I recall.

[henryalleman]

This is an interesting but also fascinating case, both inherited by new world leaders: Obama and Medvedev but in fact, old cases from GW Bush and his friend Putin.

Thailand must have been under immense pressure from both sides and it's remarkable that they (read: Judge of the criminal court...right ?) were able to push off the US pressure, so far.

Sometimes America plays a strange role. On one hand they think they can ask for extradition of a Russian in a third country (Thailand this time) who they accuse of planning to sell weapons to Colombia (rebels) but at the same time they do not recognize the International Criminal Court* in The Hague.

It is in fact even more absurd: If an American or more Americans would be brought to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, the USA told the Court they will have (read: take) the right to storm the beaches of The Hague/The Netherlands and recapture this particular American or Americans...whether found guilty (by the Court) or not.

108 states are member of this Court, apart from the USA; fairness tells me that also China, India and Russia are critics of this Court.

Would America deliver a (war)-criminal to a nation who asks to extradite this particular individual(s) ?..Thailand maybe, Russia or Mexico ? hmmmm

Something to chew on.

* The International Criminal Court (ICC or ICCt) is a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression (although it cannot currently exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression)

LaoPo

Yes I remember when that came out..but wouldn't it be more accuarate to say "The Bush and Chaney Administration" intead of "The USA"? The reason they came out with this position is because they were worried about reprecussions from the Iraq debacle. Personally I would love to see them all get banged up at The Haugue.

When there was a law suit filled against the US by some Belgian who did like to take the US to the The Hague international court, the US treathend to move the NATO HQ from Belgium and take economic sanctions by not using the Port of Antwerp for their military transports. They also warned that they would banned the Port of Antwerp by not given them the anti terror safety license for all shipments to and from the US. The Belgian government backed down, that's why I say the game is not over yet regarding Bout. I hope the Thai government show more courage than mine.

[henryalleman]

I find interesting the fine definitions between sting and entrapment. In one case, a gold miner from Kalgoorlie (AUS) found an add for a Mexican hotel on a paedophile web-site, which said they could supply children to your specifications. He booked a room with 2 girls between the ages of 8-10.

Can't fly direct to Mexico from Aus, so he went via L.A. where he was arrested IN THE TRANSIT LOUNGE by the FBI, who run the add. Found guilty as he had paid a deposit, with his Amex no less.

In Thailand, if a police officer offers to sell you drugs, and you take them in your hand, you are guilty of possession. Bleeding heart liberals will tell you this is morally wrong, but it is also a cheap and effective way of apprehending persons with criminal intent.

Victor Bout was attempting to sell surface-to-air missiles. The shoulder launched versions are ineffective against military jets, better against helicopters, and far too good when it comes to civilian aircraft in take-off or landing. The possession of such a weapon is illegal in every country, perhaps not in combat zones.

When it comes to stopping some-one flogging these to all and sundry (hey FARC are nice guys) I'm all for whatever works. If politicaly correct extradition doesn't, next meeting blow his brains out

Do you have one? Laverda I mean

Had for many years. 1974 3C 1000 with Slater Bros mods No1492. Flat mate had a SF2 750, went to sea 6 months of the year and left me the keys. We had a pair of Guzzis too, mine a 500 Monza, his a Le Mans 2. Heady days!

You where a lucky b....

[Scott]

A lot of the usual clap-trap. This situation is relatively simple. The U.S. asked for extradition and the Thai Court denied it. Russia opposed his extradition, so he will likely return to Russia where he will be protected, but probably effectively neutralized. Not that another rooster won't take over in a heartbeat.

The politicing that will go on will now between Russia and the US.

My guess is that Thailand probably doesn't want to get caught in the middle of this. The US is more likely to be forgiving and the Russians may likely be more vindictive. That is based on the assumption that the US has more to lose in a battle with Thailand than Russia does.

[henryalleman]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

That is so typical of the brain-washed, sanctimonious, "my country right or wrong" American bull anal-secretion, of 'our' generation...I'm an American septuagenarian also. I think nearly all of us once believed Americans were heroes and the country was "a beacon of hope" for the oppressed masses. Its taken me nearly 50 years to finally learn the rest of the story! It's mostly been "smoke and mirrors". While the text books and civics teachers were telling us how fortunate we were to be Americans (and we definitely were fortunate!), nobody said much about lingering racism (brown, black and yellow), growing fascism and empire building, ruthless exploitation of other countries native populations and resources [read: Confessions of an Economic Hitman...probably available online with a Google search], extreme religious intolerance, hate-mongering, and political meddling in State affairs, and, probably most importantly, the increasing erosion of our Constitutional guarantees of civil rights and liberties---which has obviously been approved by the ruling elite, funded by our avaricious, profit-driven, amoral corporations, and enacted by our "out-of-control" CIA criminals and thugs! I'm not anti-American, per se, but I'm definitely anti-American global conquest and 'new world order' plans!

I personally think Viktor Bout deserves prison time for some of his activities (but, maybe not). America has become a militaristic bully, is the world's biggest supplier (and user) of weapons of war, and, internationally, the most lawless nation in the world and biggest de-stablelizer of world peace! Bout did not break any Thai laws, so far as I know, and I'm happy that Thailand did not 'crumble' to the usual pressures (& probable expectations) of U.S. officials (DoJ & CIA). Even Bout doesn't deserve to be handed over to those goons that practice "enhanced interrogation" techniques, illegal renditions, no habeas corpus, and no legal redress. And, by the way, the U.S. federal prison system definitely still has some "country club" examples but those are generally reserved for a token crooked politician or other high ranking official that gets sloppy in his/her illegal-for-profit machinations. Viktor would likely go to "Gitmo" until he gave the CIA his international customer contact list and then be rehabilitated into the witness protection program where his new life/identity could be funded by U.S. taxpayers!

Anyhow, do a little research on your country before you start criticizing true patriots that dare to condem bad U.S.A. foreign (and domestic) policies! I still have a little faith left in the American people. Most, I believe, still know the difference between right and wrong...they just don't know enough about the horrible atrocities being committed in our names, by our govt.! {Oops, I probably just got added to the "terrorist watch list" by implicating the only terror group with "black ops" teams capable of remote controlling airplanes into the WTC towers, slamming a missile into the Pentagon & claiming it was hit by a passenger jet, imploding the towers with nano-thermite (only made by the U.S. military), and the audacity to claim that some muslims unable to fly a Cessna trainer well, could have accomplished such a fatal attack.} But, no matter, I love living in Thailand and have no immediate travel plans!

Just my humble opinion (and some conjecture), of course! Peace!

A true patriot is the one who fight against his government to protect his country. I think you are one.

[henryalleman]

Nice to see you guys are all getting along so well......Thaivisa falang harmony at it's best....

I'm not an American but every once in a while I just get tired of semi-literate morons from the UK and EU countries when they get on this anti yank kick!!

When shit happens in the world and you can't handle it (which is almost always) who do you turn to?? USA.. When the USA gets involved you bitch and complain about yankee bullies. You people are always against everything....what exactly are you for??? The EU has lost the balls to stand up to anything...all they are capable off is talking.....study groups...protesting with bill boards and finger pointing when somebody else (usually the US) tries to do something about it. American foreign policy has often been flawed.....bad decisions have been made....but at least they try .....If the EU would shut up whining and help out....maybe we would start to get somewhere. Fat chance

And somebody suggested the UN should deal with this arms dealing thug!! The fuc_king UN is just the worlds most expensive debating society....

That's my two cents worth as an objective non-American...... Whine on...................

I wonder if some of you American haters were forced to choose between what Americans want for the world and what some of the regimes you seem to sympathize with want for the world........who would you run to??? Stupid question.....you could never be honest with your answer.......it's not just the Thai's who can't stand to lose face.. I wonder how many of you anti-American whiners have every set foot in the US.... I have spent a good deal of time there....and lots of time in the UK and EU countries too. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind which I would choose if I had to.....even taking into account the sometimes bad policy decisions made by US governments at times......find me a country that does not have bad government decisions!!!!

Sorry Vicco, you have a weak argument going there but thanks for trying! There are still a few good things about the USA...just can't think of many right off hand. You are right about whether most westerners would rather live in a world dominated by American imperialism or a middle eastern country like Afghanistan or Iran, dominated by Sharia law and forced muslim religious practice. However, most of us also prefer not to have to make such a choice! Screw the muslims and the christians. Both of those mystical belief systems want to control the world and will kill anyone standing in their way. (Buddhism, more a philosophy than a religion, is okay so long as they don't get 'pushy'.)

Those of us that prefer to 'question authority' and criticize bad US foreign policy would just like to see America become a good neighbor for a change and work for world peace rather than the true "merchant of death" it has been since Vietnam! We keep hoping to see such changes but, unfortunately, the new boss seems the same as the old boss! Maybe we can get someone like Kucinich or Paul elected next time; we need someone concerned about keeping America strong (not aggressive) and compassionate.

Viktor Bout was the victim of a lousily conducted 'sting' operation and should be allowed to return to his home, not handed over to CIA operatives, that do their own drug smuggling and arms sales to pay for "black ops" budgets...and who don't give a dam_n whether he is guilty as charged or whether they break international laws in his capture. It's a good decision by the Thai court IMHO.

You are right about whether most westerners would rather live in a world dominated by American imperialism or a middle eastern country like Afghanistan or Iran, dominated by Sharia law and forced muslim religious practice.

I think that most people would like to live in an EU country

[henryalleman]

I joined Thai Visa appx. three years ago. One of the major reasons was to use it as yet another avenue to keep abreast of the news in Thailand, a country my wife was born in 55 years ago. Until then I had no idea of the strong hatred that (it seems) the vast majority of Europeans have for Americans. A few people I know have learned a little of that dislike on visits to England & France. As I learned the extent of that hatred reading the Thai Visa posts each day I have since tried to relay that to anybody I ran into in the U.S. (a huge country with many differences in different states and regions). Seldom in my life have I heard Americans criticise Europeans. So they have no idea the hatred Europeans have for them - even though most Europeans know no Americans nor have they visited the U.S. except in such places as New York or Calif. where most Americans would say do not represent the vast majority of Americans politically or morally. I have invited every American I know to join Thai Visa to see what Europeans think of them and then decide if they want to spend their money in Europe. Sure, Europe can do without American tourists just as the U.S. can do without European tourists. I now live permanently in Phuket but, through the internet, continue to try to inform Americans what they are thought of by Europeans. My father was wounded and almost killed fighting in Europe and tens of thousands of American soldiers were killed and wounded badly and suffered the rest of their lives fighting in that war in which they thought they were helping their allies. Many Americans were isolationists (and I wish the country was isolationist today) and tried to stay out of the war but FDR was ready when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. He had been arming the British for more than a year. Had I been Pres. and had my way, I would have stayed out of the war and quickly established trade relations with Germany as soon as it was over.

May I remind you that Churchill had to beg on his knees before the US SOLD him the weapons. The US SOLD the weapons NOT GIVE.

The aiplanes for instance where dismantled and secretly smugled into Canada, because FDR did not want to upset the Germans. I don't know your age, but the older Europeans welcomed the GI's and adored them, but this did not last long. But that's another story, I don't like to shatter your dreams too much.

And I guess you have no idea of the arrogance of your fellow countrymen when they are abroad. They think that the Yanks are god's gift to earth and act accordingly.

PS did you ever ask what your Canadian neighbours think of the US?

Edited August 12, 2009 by henryalleman

[lazygourmet]

I joined Thai Visa appx. three years ago. One of the major reasons was to use it as yet another avenue to keep abreast of the news in Thailand, a country my wife was born in 55 years ago. Until then I had no idea of the strong hatred that (it seems) the vast majority of Europeans have for Americans. A few people I know have learned a little of that dislike on visits to England & France. As I learned the extent of that hatred reading the Thai Visa posts each day I have since tried to relay that to anybody I ran into in the U.S. (a huge country with many differences in different states and regions). Seldom in my life have I heard Americans criticise Europeans. So they have no idea the hatred Europeans have for them - even though most Europeans know no Americans nor have they visited the U.S. except in such places as New York or Calif. where most Americans would say do not represent the vast majority of Americans politically or morally. I have invited every American I know to join Thai Visa to see what Europeans think of them and then decide if they want to spend their money in Europe. Sure, Europe can do without American tourists just as the U.S. can do without European tourists. I now live permanently in Phuket but, through the internet, continue to try to inform Americans what they are thought of by Europeans. My father was wounded and almost killed fighting in Europe and tens of thousands of American soldiers were killed and wounded badly and suffered the rest of their lives fighting in that war in which they thought they were helping their allies. Many Americans were isolationists (and I wish the country was isolationist today) and tried to stay out of the war but FDR was ready when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. He had been arming the British for more than a year. Had I been Pres. and had my way, I would have stayed out of the war and quickly established trade relations with Germany as soon as it was over.

May I remind you that Churchill had to beg on his knees before the US SOLD him the weapons. The US SOLD the weapons NOT GIVE.

The aiplanes for instance where dismantled and secretly smugled into Canada, because FDR did not want to upset the Germans. I don't know your age, but the older Europeans welcomed the GI's and adored them, but this did not last long. But that's another story, I don't like to shatter your dreams too much.

And I guess you have no idea of the arrogance of your fellow countrymen when they are abroad. They think that the Yanks are god's gift to earth and act accordingly.

Hi Henry!

Don't you find bizarre that after 11 pages our (little) country has never been quoted?!?

"In March of 1995 Bout started a company in the Belgian city Oostend named Trans Aviation Network Group. The company had a difficult start when their main customer, the Afghani Northern Alliance, was pushed out of power by the Taliban. In May of 1995 a plane filled with weapons and ammunition destined for the Northern Alliance was intercepted in Afghanistan by the Taliban. The crew was held captive until 16th of August, 1996 when they managed to escape.

Not long after Bout had a new customer, the Taliban. It wasn't his first contact with the Taliban he had sold them weapons before but not in the large shipments he sent them now. Business was good. Bout enjoyed his life, in Oostend, Belgium he bought a mansion and had several expensive cars... But life in Belgium didn't stay sweet for long, in 1997 Belgian newspapers published reports about Bout's shady operation and when Belgian authorities started looking into his business Bout moved to the United Arab Emirates."

Source: http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/VictorBout.html

But for more about Belgium arms dealing, have a look at this one:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=120&contentid=1337&page=2

Conspiracy theory?!? Wat denkt U?

[tomashopkins]

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is an interesting dilemma. US and European governments have been and are doing exactly what Victor has done, selling arms to various guerilla groups and governments. For more, the West has by force installed right-wing brutal dictators in Southern America, in Iraq AND in Iran. The hel_l with democracy and the will of the people. The biggest weapons dealers are USA and then EU on this planet. USA has de facto MERCENARY army. This is classic case of "do as we say, not as we do".

Even Osama is seen as a freedom fighter among some Muslims. He wants US troops out of Saudi-Arabia. There Americans support very brutal "government" which uses religion and modern American weapons (like Apache helicopters) to put down everybody daring to question their power. Beheadings and stoning to death as punishment methods. Even Saddam Hussein was not that hard against Iraqis. How is that in any way fair and decent thing to do?

Yes is certainly IS a dilemma...

and I don't approve of ANY of these arms transactions as such.

The CIA has done all sorts of harm out there, it has done some good too.

But the 'residual byproducts' often come back to haunt all of us.

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

Osama and Taliban being classic examples.

Regardless of the governmental stupidities this guy Bout shouldn't be in this business.

Drinking Grape juice

Wife's watching Acadmy Fantasia

It is getting on to bedtime

As happens every night

Soupe de poulet a aile et poivre is good for the system

Keeps bright eyed and alert

I don't watch the whites of Vanna's eyes.

there is greater literature to peruse.

Infinite Jest is tonights tome dejour

As the war went so did most of our fathers,

and father's inlaw mine was french.

You must be confusing me with someone else.

Since you don't mention WHAT you call trash, no response is possible.

Hola animatic!

I really appreciate the poetry wars!

I hope to tip a pint with your someday! But the poem was in response to your denial

of the insturmental role the French played in winning the American revolution! Which by the way

is why I ended my last line with "Remember Yorktown!" Regards. Tomas

[bobbin]

I joined Thai Visa appx. three years ago. One of the major reasons was to use it as yet another avenue to keep abreast of the news in Thailand, a country my wife was born in 55 years ago. Until then I had no idea of the strong hatred that (it seems) the vast majority of Europeans have for Americans. A few people I know have learned a little of that dislike on visits to England & France. As I learned the extent of that hatred reading the Thai Visa posts each day I have since tried to relay that to anybody I ran into in the U.S. (a huge country with many differences in different states and regions). Seldom in my life have I heard Americans criticise Europeans. So they have no idea the hatred Europeans have for them - even though most Europeans know no Americans nor have they visited the U.S. except in such places as New York or Calif. where most Americans would say do not represent the vast majority of Americans politically or morally. I have invited every American I know to join Thai Visa to see what Europeans think of them and then decide if they want to spend their money in Europe. Sure, Europe can do without American tourists just as the U.S. can do without European tourists. I now live permanently in Phuket but, through the internet, continue to try to inform Americans what they are thought of by Europeans. My father was wounded and almost killed fighting in Europe and tens of thousands of American soldiers were killed and wounded badly and suffered the rest of their lives fighting in that war in which they thought they were helping their allies. Many Americans were isolationists (and I wish the country was isolationist today) and tried to stay out of the war but FDR was ready when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. He had been arming the British for more than a year. Had I been Pres. and had my way, I would have stayed out of the war and quickly established trade relations with Germany as soon as it was over.

Have you ever heard the phrase....."What have you done for me lately?"

Seriously though, I'm afraid you will have to add Canadians, Australians etc, in fact thinking citizens of most countries to your boycott list.

You are personalizing the issue and missing the point. At some point you will begin to resemble the average German citizen just prior to the beginning of WW2. Any criticism is seen as unjustified. Only later did reality set in. This is not say that the USA is equivalent to Nazi Germany but to show an extreme example of a decent people led astray and not appreciating how "rogue" their government had become....by stages.

The USA has a lot to answer to at some point. We are not all smoking wacky tobacco here. People are upset with American foreign policy. Live with it or agitate to change it. The average American citizen is a good as any other citizen. "We the People etc." But you will end up carrying the can for your government's policies. It ain't fair but it's life.

[RKASA]

Yes the French did save the battle of Yorktown, and without their help we would have lost that war.  The blockade of the Chesapeake was a dream come true.  Only as many as 30% of Americans really supported the war and another 30% didn't care ether way.  Many places are named for Lafayette whom I think of as one of my hero's.  

The US also helped in WWI and supplied the winning factor of supplies and a lot personnel in WWII.   They were late because the Republicans didn't want FDR to save face over years of failed programs to use the war as cover, but he did and then we did what we would have had to do at some point anyway.  

Most our resource went into the winning in Europe first because intel already knew Hitler had a bomb and rocket program that had to be slowed by knocking the  you know out of them daily.  The brits by night and the US by daylight bombing.   It saved the world from an unknown future and it took everyones help to get it done or it would have failed.  

We did not win the war in the pacific by ourself ether it took a lot of help from AU and NZ.  

Really in all of this we only asked for a place to bury our dead.  Occupations after the war were for rebuilding.  

The US is far from perfect and has made many mistakes, but to think thats not just as true of others and that their crap smells of roses is total hypocrisy.   The US has not cornered the market on being arrogant ether, just read the last 20 pages.  There is more then enough of that to go around.

But the topic is the Merchant of Death.  Don't like this guy he is no victim, but if you can't get him now they will later.   He is not going into retirement.   Let him go, the sooner he is loose the sooner one of many countries that wants him will get him.  We only tried and missed.  No big deal.

[animatic]

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is an interesting dilemma. US and European governments have been and are doing exactly what Victor has done, selling arms to various guerilla groups and governments. For more, the West has by force installed right-wing brutal dictators in Southern America, in Iraq AND in Iran. The hel_l with democracy and the will of the people. The biggest weapons dealers are USA and then EU on this planet. USA has de facto MERCENARY army. This is classic case of "do as we say, not as we do".

Even Osama is seen as a freedom fighter among some Muslims. He wants US troops out of Saudi-Arabia. There Americans support very brutal "government" which uses religion and modern American weapons (like Apache helicopters) to put down everybody daring to question their power. Beheadings and stoning to death as punishment methods. Even Saddam Hussein was not that hard against Iraqis. How is that in any way fair and decent thing to do?

Yes is certainly IS a dilemma...

and I don't approve of ANY of these arms transactions as such.

The CIA has done all sorts of harm out there, it has done some good too.

But the 'residual byproducts' often come back to haunt all of us.

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

Osama and Taliban being classic examples.

Regardless of the governmental stupidities this guy Bout shouldn't be in this business.

Drinking Grape juice

Wife's watching Acadmy Fantasia

It is getting on to bedtime

As happens every night

Soupe de poulet a aile et poivre is good for the system

Keeps bright eyed and alert

I don't watch the whites of Vanna's eyes.

there is greater literature to peruse.

Infinite Jest is tonights tome dejour

As the war went so did most of our fathers,

and father's inlaw mine was french.

You must be confusing me with someone else.

Since you don't mention WHAT you call trash, no response is possible.

Hola animatic!

I really appreciate the poetry wars!

I hope to tip a pint with your someday! But the poem was in response to your denial

of the insturmental role the French played in winning the American revolution! Which by the way

is why I ended my last line with "Remember Yorktown!" Regards. Tomas

Tomas. I took that as The SHIP The Yorktown WWII, sorry my mistake.

Yes the French did Arrive at Yorktown and were certainly an aid.

And there were several French officers giving freely their time in aid also.

Not sure if you know, but I did live for 10 years in France. 5 north 5 south.

And have driven around 150k kilo around the country seeing and visiting things.

I speak reasonably fluent French, and practice with visiting people often.

I doubt you know another American who knows who Engurand De Coucy was,

or why his tower was razed, or one-eyed Constable de France Olivier V de Clisson.

Huguenots, Madonnas Noir and sans coulots are better known.

I was simply saying, it was not a forgone conclusion that sans Française the revolution would have been lost.

Great reading are the recent bio's of John Adams,

Ben Franklin with new info about the Paris years, and 1776 much G. Washington info.

I would list the authors for you but the books are boxed at present.

Samual Smiths Olde Pale Ale, Watneys Red Barrel, Pelforth Brune, Coopers organic.

All will do admirably if we can find them.

The trappists don't float my egg nog though,

and Black n Tan tastes great, but is WAY too political... we won't go there.

[bobbin]

OK, again to all of you speculative punters who have absolutely no formal training in Thai law, let alone international law...I am not saying that palms were not greased, in fact they get greased everywhere, just look at the latest scandals in Chicago or NJ. But the Thai court's judgement rang true within the boundaries of international law. Under the prescripts of int law Colombia is a "contested state" under a condition of "belligerency." Which means outside STATES or INDIVIDUALS are free intervene exactly because to outcome of the conflict is "contested." And that is what the Thai court said today (by the way much more consistent with int law than the US State Dept). The FARC are not on Thailand's list of "terrorist organizations." Although the FARC is on the US list, but so is Cuba, so is Hamas, so is Hezbollah, all of which are NOT terrorist organizations. The Thai court's ruling is completely consistent within the constrainsts of international law. The US is proposing to build FIVE more military bases withing Colombia (as of this week) and any asshol_e who has the temerity to pick up a gun to challange THAT occupation will IMMEDIATELY be labeled as a "terrorist" by the US administration. Hillary, Barak and the rest can just go sit on their fingers and twirl. Under every definition of international law the FARC DOES HAVE belligerency status, which means that selling weapons to them is neither a violation of Thai law nor international law. And if you want to dispute me on this fact, simply pick up a book on internatonal law and go to the concept of "status of belligerency." THEN get back to me.

So I looked up "state of belligerency" as you suggested.

Highly unlikely that concept of international law was a cornerstone of the decision, as the last time it was applied to a "single state" was in the American Civil War!

[henryalleman]

I joined Thai Visa appx. three years ago. One of the major reasons was to use it as yet another avenue to keep abreast of the news in Thailand, a country my wife was born in 55 years ago. Until then I had no idea of the strong hatred that (it seems) the vast majority of Europeans have for Americans. A few people I know have learned a little of that dislike on visits to England & France. As I learned the extent of that hatred reading the Thai Visa posts each day I have since tried to relay that to anybody I ran into in the U.S. (a huge country with many differences in different states and regions). Seldom in my life have I heard Americans criticise Europeans. So they have no idea the hatred Europeans have for them - even though most Europeans know no Americans nor have they visited the U.S. except in such places as New York or Calif. where most Americans would say do not represent the vast majority of Americans politically or morally. I have invited every American I know to join Thai Visa to see what Europeans think of them and then decide if they want to spend their money in Europe. Sure, Europe can do without American tourists just as the U.S. can do without European tourists. I now live permanently in Phuket but, through the internet, continue to try to inform Americans what they are thought of by Europeans. My father was wounded and almost killed fighting in Europe and tens of thousands of American soldiers were killed and wounded badly and suffered the rest of their lives fighting in that war in which they thought they were helping their allies. Many Americans were isolationists (and I wish the country was isolationist today) and tried to stay out of the war but FDR was ready when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. He had been arming the British for more than a year. Had I been Pres. and had my way, I would have stayed out of the war and quickly established trade relations with Germany as soon as it was over.

May I remind you that Churchill had to beg on his knees before the US SOLD him the weapons. The US SOLD the weapons NOT GIVE.

The aiplanes for instance where dismantled and secretly smugled into Canada, because FDR did not want to upset the Germans. I don't know your age, but the older Europeans welcomed the GI's and adored them, but this did not last long. But that's another story, I don't like to shatter your dreams too much.

And I guess you have no idea of the arrogance of your fellow countrymen when they are abroad. They think that the Yanks are god's gift to earth and act accordingly.

Hi Henry!

Don't you find bizarre that after 11 pages our (little) country has never been quoted?!?

"In March of 1995 Bout started a company in the Belgian city Oostend named Trans Aviation Network Group. The company had a difficult start when their main customer, the Afghani Northern Alliance, was pushed out of power by the Taliban. In May of 1995 a plane filled with weapons and ammunition destined for the Northern Alliance was intercepted in Afghanistan by the Taliban. The crew was held captive until 16th of August, 1996 when they managed to escape.

Not long after Bout had a new customer, the Taliban. It wasn't his first contact with the Taliban he had sold them weapons before but not in the large shipments he sent them now. Business was good. Bout enjoyed his life, in Oostend, Belgium he bought a mansion and had several expensive cars... But life in Belgium didn't stay sweet for long, in 1997 Belgian newspapers published reports about Bout's shady operation and when Belgian authorities started looking into his business Bout moved to the United Arab Emirates."

Source: http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/VictorBout.html

But for more about Belgium arms dealing, have a look at this one:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=120&contentid=1337&page=2

Conspiracy theory?!? Wat denkt U?

You know and I know that Belgium has an reputation in the whealing and dealing of small weapons; Even the US marines use Belgian weapons. Its also a given fact that the port of Antwerp and the Ostend Airport are major hubs in weapons transport. And again, you know and I know that in Belgium eveything is possible(Thai politicians are greenhorns compared with their Belgian colleagues). Why do you think the licences for weapon export is regionalized and not under the control of the federal government anymore. Do you remember a few years ago the national government had to resign because of it. And the Walloon region is ruled by the most corrupt party possible, Thaksin is kindergarten material compared with them.

Many people don't seems to know that this little fuxxxng country is a major weapon exporter of small fire arms.

http://www.fnherstal.com/

on the walloon side and

on the Flemish side

Barco, specialized in computer systems and screens, is a major suplier of the US airforce and Navy.

http://www.barco.com/

are 2 big exporters of weapons or military Hi-Tech.

The US is a big country and in the picture, but the tiny Belgium has his merrits(?).

remember the weapon scandals

Dassault, Agusta, obussen, delivery of Hi-Tech machine guns to Chilli who never arrived there, machine guns to Nepal, the list is endlesly.

Many weaponry who can't be sold to countries in conflict are sold by the US by the Belgium connection in sideway's to those countries.

So its no surprise that shady figures like Bout find Belgium a very cozy place. And was there not some Belgian connection in the giant gun Saddam was building?

Personally I ever know an Zimbawian arms trader who came every 6 weeks to FN, Herstal, When he ordered some spare parts from my shop I always had to contact an employee of that company that his goods were arrived.

PS the spare parts had nothing to do with any arms;

[SomchaiCNX]

Funny, if you don't agree with an American you are anti US.