Civil Servants Told To Sign Government Petition Or Lose Jobs

[Plus]

I was writing about the questioning -almost interrogation- of the anti-Thaksin brigade about the OP article.

For the past couple of pages no one questions the OP article.

The question is its source and methods the information was obtained.

It would be real shame if even parts of it came from unattributed and anonymous tweet messages and then passed as "news" on ThaiVisa, BY ThaiVisa.

Anyone with a spare 300 baht could post a hundred tweets describing any imaginary event he wishes in full detail and from different perspectives. And it would look like a flood.

Is this how ThaiVisa News is possibly created? I hope not.

[LaoPo]

I was writing about the questioning -almost interrogation- of the anti-Thaksin brigade about the OP article.

Is this how ThaiVisa News is possibly created? I hope not.

Ask Administration perhaps ?

LaoPo

[Insight]

I have no reason to question the journalist, but I sure do question how so many members of ThaiVisa all ended up married to Civil Servants!

The civil service is one of the biggest employers in Thailand

[Scott]

I am not sure who your attack is aimed at, ThaiVisa or at the journalist. Journalists subscribe to a code of ethics and stories are developed and facts are checked. Good journalists don't always divulge their sources. You may recall the guy who was referred to as "Deep Throat" that brought down Nixon, but was never named. He eventually came forward on his own.

It does not take a stretch of the imagination to believe that a government-sponsored initiative would involve the agencies of the gov't, i.e., the Civil Service. The credibility of the story doesn't take a giant leap to make it believable.

[Insight]

I am not sure who your attack is aimed at, ThaiVisa or at the journalist. Journalists subscribe to a code of ethics and stories are developed and facts are checked. Good journalists don't always divulge their sources. You may recall the guy who was referred to as "Deep Throat" that brought down Nixon, but was never named. He eventually came forward on his own.

It does not take a stretch of the imagination to believe that a government-sponsored initiative would involve the agencies of the gov't, i.e., the Civil Service. The credibility of the story doesn't take a giant leap to make it believable.

Very well worded, but missing the ultimate point of the article being complete <deleted>.

There is no "government-sponsored initiative" to have all civil servants sign this counter petition. Several posters have been on TV and mentioned they know people who haven't been forced to sign the petition in any way. The article first says people could loose their jobs by not signing, and then indicates people are being paid to sign. Which way round is it?

It soon becomes apparent that the article in question is based on hearsay (sounds like typical old-wives gossip, Thai style) with nothing concrete to back it up, yet at from the headline at the very least (Civil Servants Told To Sign Government Petition Or Lose Jobs) is stated as fact.

If a pro-PAD supporter posted a similar article about the so-called "Finland Deceleration" it'd get ripped to shreds based on a similar lack of compelling evidence, and rightly so.

If you want to keep peddling this BS the very least you could do is get a proof reader.

[NCFC]

The information on people being intimidated and told to meet signature quotas came from talking to civil servants employed in the north and northeast of Thailand. Other events are reported from having spoken to and in some cases obtained written accounts of events from eyewitnesses to those events.

Thanks for reading

Ummm, calling Bulls**t on this. If they are "forcing" people to sign, why not force everyone? If they are forcing everyone, why do we have "eyewitness" accounts that there isn't even any mention of a petition within the civil service offices, let alone the forcing of signatures? This sounds like too much of a UDD set up, and is also probably why this has not been covered in the regular news outlets.

Perhaps by seeding this story into online forums, the UDD hopes that the regular news outlets will pick it up just because they love "stories" like this and may not do any fact-checking before printing it.

Sorry, but this government wouldn't do something as stupid as this. It sounds too much like a heavy-handed Thaksin move, and even if you don't like Abhisit, you must admit that he has much more political finesse. Even if this story was true, you can bet that it would have been done without his knowledge.

Look like this story has burst your bubble, hasn't it? Truth has a habit of being uncomfortable.

[Plus]

I am not sure who your attack is aimed at, ThaiVisa or at the journalist. Journalists subscribe to a code of ethics and stories are developed and facts are checked. Good journalists don't always divulge their sources. You may recall the guy who was referred to as "Deep Throat" that brought down Nixon, but was never named. He eventually came forward on his own.

It's one thing to hide the identity of the source it's quite another to invent your "sources".

Phrases like "reports are filtering out" sound like tweet messages. Also - who is filtering them?

[Lite Beer]

A post has been set invisible while under Moderation review. Together with a reply to it.

[hammered]

Considering all Thai governments without exception have always used the interior ministry to influence elections, why would anyone be suprised at this. Opposition parties also have always used their alternative networks to do the same.

Thai democracy at work.

[Ferwert]

I see your point Lao Po. You are quite right to notice the immediate skepticism. I initially resisted temptation to question the veracity and sources of the article because it all seems rather pointless. I am neither yellow nor red, but I do support Abhisit, for the time being at least. I rather despise Thaksin, but that is really neither here nor there.

I reckon people simply question the article because it makes some very damaging accusations and because there are no corroborating reports by other press. It in no way means that the events described didn't occur, only that there isn't enough information to make that determination.

"I am neither yellow or red...."

Yes you are.

You are "yellow"

Sorry to break this to you way2muchcoffee.

All yellow and sympathisers of the PAD/old paternalistic politics (P/OPP) people say that.

They hope they can create an illusion of non-partisanship, and then solemnly declare their support for P/OPP positions, hoping that their faux unalligned status gives them more credibility.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Ferwert

[way2muchcoffee]

Yellow signifies alignment with PAD specifically. That is not who I support. You mistakenly assume support for one particular politician as alignment with his party and also with a former community organization now turned political party of their own. I don't support the Democrat party in general as my support is limited to Abhisit based on actions he has taken and statements he has made. Simply because the democrat party and Abhisit in particular benefitted by PAD actions does in no way make them the same animal or organization. You know this to be true.

Consider this: A person could be a Thaksin supporter, but not necessarily support PTP, or Rak Chiang Mai 51.

Edited August 15, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[Ferwert]

Considering all Thai governments without exception have always used the interior ministry to influence elections, why would anyone be suprised at this. Opposition parties also have always used their alternative networks to do the same.

Thai democracy at work.

Hammered, in addition to the facts in Le Fevre'e report, I heard an additonal piece of information, that puts all those individual actions of the "Governors" into context.

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province.

They obviously pushed this directive down the line.

That is why you see individual actions taken by lower levels to meet that goal, using whatever opportunities that fall in their way, or whatever initiatives they feel comfortable with. It obviously varies from province to province and even between local authorities.

[Mario2008]

Thaivisa is for people to ask questions and exchange ideas and opinions. A lot of debate is going on about the current political situation. How ever, it seems that the political debate for a large part turns into the same discussion, without discussing the actual news. Having the same discusion over and over again is disrupting the real discussion of the news. We therefor ask that members stick to the topic being discussed and will delete any posts that are off topic or which contents are already elswhere discussed. Our intention is to make the topics more interesting to everyone and lent an ear to different opinions regarding the topic being discussed.

In this regard we would like to remind people that giving an opinion is allowed, but we don't allow lobbying. When posting one gives his personal view, not that of any group.

To further improve the quality of the ongoing political debate we ask members to abide by the following rules when posting:

- discuss the topic, not the person who posted.

- respect each others point of views

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

[sriracha john]

Hammered, in addition to the facts in Le Fevre'e report, I heard an additonal piece of information, that puts all those individual actions of the "Governors" into context.

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province.

Apart from the as-yet-uncorroborated "facts" in the OP, do you have any corroboration or even the source of your latest addition?

Additionally, a response from the questions put forth to you yesterday, that remain unresponded to, would be nice.

Refer to:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2942226

Edited August 15, 2009 by sriracha john

[hammered]

Considering all Thai governments without exception have always used the interior ministry to influence elections, why would anyone be suprised at this. Opposition parties also have always used their alternative networks to do the same.

Thai democracy at work.

Hammered, in addition to the facts in Le Fevre'e report, I heard an additonal piece of information, that puts all those individual actions of the "Governors" into context.

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province.

They obviously pushed this directive down the line.

That is why you see individual actions taken by lower levels to meet that goal, using whatever opportunities that fall in their way, or whatever initiatives they feel comfortable with. It obviously varies from province to province and even between local authorities.

I dont doubt it. One reason why no government has ever gone for elected governors is that the interior ministry uses them to influence things. This has always historically been the way of Thai polity. To be in government bestows this manipulative power. Right now the Newinites control and use the ministry and they are very adept at traditional politics. Mind you any current party in control of that ministry would abuse that power.

The power of the interior ministry to influence though is declining.

[Plus]

Plus,

I cannot quite see your point here. As a journalist I am sure Mr Le Fevre receives many e-mail, twitters or whatever making all sorts of accusations - I am not a journalist but I get 100s of unsolicited e-mails on a daily basis but this doesn't mean I am in cohoots with the odd nigerian general or two. Surely what is important here is that if accustations are made, and I am sure most journalists receive many unsubstantiated claims on a daily basis, particularly if they are thought to be sympathetic to a cause, it is the job of a responsible journalist to verify these claims partly through thier own sources and possibly through contacts provided by the original source. As long as these sources are who they claim to be, which I am sure would be part of the verification process. I notice from his previous response to my question that he has obtained some written responses from eyewitnesses...

I have no problems with recaps of what has been posted on tweeter, as long as it is clearly stated that it is the source.

John has said he obtained the info for his story from interviews with eye-wtinesses and I have no problems with that either.

Earlier I asked how many people he interviewed, because it appeared that he covered the whole country and some regions reported abuse of power. Was it really the case? Or was it a case of one or two interviews projected on the rest of the country. From reading the article lots of people assumed that it was a nationwide policy.

And a tweet question still remains - how much info for that article, if any, came from unattributed and unverified tweets posted on the Internet?

And a few quotes posted by dp25 - what's the relationship between "redtweeter" and John, and what's the deal with requesting to publish a coup story, and in exchange for what?

>>>

These are fair question for the only news reporter allowed to publish his own articles on TV and start new threads from those articles. If he wants to be taken seriously, he should "come clean".

[TAWP]

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

I think this is what several posters is asking for...

[teetersb]

I would like to ask Ferwert if there is any way he could corroborate these statements he posed to Hammered:

""Hammered, in addition to the facts in Le Fevre'e report, I heard an additonal piece of information, that puts all those individual actions of the Governors into context.

After reading Le Fevre's report I see only unverifiable speculation from a Tweet, nothing that can be considered fact, nor any sources! I heard is hearsay and gossip, again, I don't see any verification here only a segue into statements by several officials that obfuscate the original premise of the article. .[/font]

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province

If "all Governors" were given these "marching orders", why are Chaiyapum and Chiang Mai provinces the only ones mentioned? There also seems to be some discrepency from some of the other Thaivisa members with relatives working in CM government offices, which disputes these claims. Any response?

They obviously pushed this directive down the line.

How?

I am one of the silent majority, on this forum, that usually just reads and is amused, amazed, bewildered and befuddled by the submissions here, but sometimes I have a little spare time to actually post and I hope that Ferwert will respond to this with something other than his usual Limbaugh style rhetoric.

[hammered]

Has Thai Visa set itself up as a news agnecy now? There seem to be a lot of these John LeFevre posts with Thai Visa News Bangkok or something attached. Sorry if I missed some announcement but it does seem people are a bit confused.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

don't bash up this guy too much he's just trying to make a living! and don't question the "news" content because it is posted by the owner of the site not the author, otherwise you are all getting banned like me!

BTW do i have to sign out before beeing banned?

It doesn't matter too much.

[sabaijai]

It may indeed be true in places, just as we can safely assume that there are people who have signed the red petition that equally were paid/rewarded/escaped consequences for doing so.

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

[Ferwert]

It may indeed be true in places, just as we can safely assume that there are people who have signed the red petition that equally were paid/rewarded/escaped consequences for doing so.

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

Sabaijai, this is incorrect.

The signatories to the "citizen's supplication" were not paid.

They were not coerced.

It is not 'common knowledge' anywhere, because it did not occur.

I have been at the heart of this entire Red Shirt phenomenon for weeks, and know it not to be true.

I liken such a bald, unsubstantiated statement as a 'drive-by swipe'. Similar to someone throwing mud at a wall, hoping some of it sticks.

This whole Government over-the-top-paranoid anti-petition initiative was definitely a coercive/payment action as the evidence shows.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Ferwert

[TAWP]

It may indeed be true in places, just as we can safely assume that there are people who have signed the red petition that equally were paid/rewarded/escaped consequences for doing so.

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

Sabaijai, this is incorrect.

The signatories to the "citizen's supplication" were not paid.

They were not coerced.

It is not 'common knowledge' anywhere, because it did not occur.

Here we go again...

[animatic]

It may indeed be true in places, just as we can safely assume that there are people who have signed the red petition that equally were paid/rewarded/escaped consequences for doing so.

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

Sabaijai, this is incorrect.

The signatories to the "citizen's supplication" were not paid.

They were not coerced.

It is not 'common knowledge' anywhere, because it did not occur.

I have been at the heart of this entire Red Shirt phenomenon for weeks, and know it not to be true.

I liken such a bald, unsubstantiated statement as a 'drive-by swipe'. Similar to someone throwing mud at a wall, hoping some of it sticks.

This whole Government over-the-top-paranoid anti-petition initiative was definitely a coercive/payment action as the evidence shows.

Shamed would work too,

Or simply the age old the implication that something won't get done when they want it.

Puyai bans certainly don't need specific threats, thye indicate what they want

and all villagers know what it means to go against them.

Mind control is an awesome thing, and a true horror in the wrong hands.

Let the Midnight Special shine it's Thaksin Light on you.

Better be smiling.

[LaoPo]

Surprising how bad some members are able to read:

To further improve the quality of the ongoing political debate we ask members to abide by the following rules when posting:

- discuss the topic, not the person who posted.

- respect each others point of views

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

This was posted today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Civil-Servan...72#entry2943972

LaoPo

[politeexpat]

My wife, a mid-level government employee of an Amphur thought this story was already in the Bangkok Post because it IS NO SECRET TO THAI PEOPLE that pressure to sign the petitions (from all sides) is heavy and a lot is at stake. (forget rule of law, face and public opinion is important)

It seems that the people looking to squash this story as unfounded aren't bothering to read the posts. Different people close to the reality of it have posted. The context, explanation, track record of standard operating procedure in Thailand politics for a long time can be found in this thread. Many posts don't find it surprising at all. Especially people the understand the difference from big city Thailand and rural Thailand and political strongholds.

Would you like the name of my wife ? she can tell you all about it after she has time on her hands because she will lose her job.

Unfortunately the story from the Thai newspaper that reported this story DAYS AGO hasn't made it me, and or has been translated yet.

When the time comes, if you naysayers are willing to retract your statements and eat crow then all the weird negativity will be worthwhile.

Just because someone you know hasn't been pressured, or you haven't read it in Reuters or on the BBC means your world vision is safe. But unfortunately the counter arguments are all personal, rather than factual. Geez, no wonder I don't read this forum or post very often.

Edited August 15, 2009 by politeexpat

[catmac]

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

Amazing, that just a few hours after we were instructed by the Mods via Mario2008 to wisely "post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present", we have a blatant, unsubstantiated rumour presented as "fact" by another Mod!

It is simply not "common knowledge" at all. just another dollop of unfounded mud flung at your opponents in the hope that some will stick! It reminds me of all those "common knowledge" allegations that everyone attending red rallies was being paid to be there (you remember all those "a friend of my maid's sister's cousin's neighbour said that..........") - not a single soul ever went because they actually believed in the red message.

[Plus]

It seems that the people looking to squash this story as unfounded aren't bothering to read the posts.

No, not at all. We just want to know what the story is founded on exactly.

We want to know what professional standards does this journalist follow? Is he a member of any accredited journalist organization, or is he self-proclaimed "journalist"? Who among real, professional journalists can vouch for his credibility? Who will take responsibility if he goes off the rails?

There's a contract between the public and the media - we put certain amount of trust in the media, and the media is accountable for what it reports to us. Where does John Le Fevre fit in this? Is he accountable in any way?

Until all that can be settled to OUR satisfaction, we will treat his "news" on their own merit - someone somewhere has probably said something, or it could have been a hoax from the start.

[TAWP]

It's common knowledge in the north that local tambon heads have coerced and/or paid residents to sign the Red petition.

Sabaijai, this is incorrect.

The signatories to the "citizen's supplication" were not paid.

They were not coerced.

It is not 'common knowledge' anywhere, because it did not occur.

Ferwerts statement seems to collide with:

/.../ thought this story was already in the Bangkok Post because it IS NO SECRET TO THAI PEOPLE that pressure to sign the petitions (from all sides) is heavy and a lot is at stake. (forget rule of law, face and public opinion is important)

Surprising how bad some members are able to read:

I agree, especially this part:

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

Since you, LaoPo, are objective - and not leaning to either side - surely you would agree?

[Mario2008]

2 posts deleted for commenting on each other, not the topic.