Thailand Fever

[kaosoi]

Hello,

A few weeks ago in a post on another topic someone suggested to me I read "Thailand Fever" in order to better understand my Thai girlfriend.

I got my hands on a copy and wanted to ask for some thoughts about the book from anyone else who has read it.

Briefly, it attempts to explain some (not all) key Western values and key Thai values and how these need to be understood and can often clash in a relationship. The book focuses on most typically a male Westerner having a Thai girlfriend (but says some points are still relevant to other combinations). It is co-authored with a Western man who has lived here a while explaining the Thai perspective to us Westerners and a Westernised Thai lady explaining values and thinking that are important to Farangs to the Thai reader. The book is written bilingually.

The key Western values cited are 1. independence (say from parents, and controlling your own affairs) 2.Privacy (my business, my space) 3. Fairness 4. Equality 5. Truth (as opposed to face saving lies).

The key Thai values are 1. Generosity (Thais derive self-esteem through giving, helping others) 2. Honouring debts 3. Honouring the ultimate debts to, especially, parents 4. the importance of hierarchy 5. saving face & avoiding confrontation 6. lastly, there is no privacy in Thailand - they tend not to like to be left alone.

Although I have some gripes with the book I think it is valuable for couples as at least a talking point and as a way of "walking in each others shoes" and trying to understand why perspectives and reactions to various things may differ. For example, a couple may have an argument about something and at the root of it is different cultural perspectives. If both sides are aware of the perspectives they can, and this is a key stated thesis of the book, COMPROMISE. It says if you are not prepared to compromise your values then you should not go through with your relationship.

I guess I am still forming my views about the book but some initial concerns are as follows:

1. Most importantly, did it favour Thai values over Western ones? 20 pages on Western values and 34 on Thai. The Westerner must accept that he has to pay dowry, have his girlfriends parents live with him one day and subsidise his girlfriend and her family. The female author tells the Thai female reader that she must tell her partner how much money she needs but must also be clear with him that she can get it no other way. It explains to her that (I paraphrase) "although your boyfriend can probably afford the things you ask him for" it is important to him that equal effort is put in. Also, the book tries to explain that Westerners are not all rich and that although salaries in Western countries are higher than Thailand the cost of living is too. It said a few other things in this vein but I sometimes wondered if the book was an apology for how Westerners should give money to Thais.

2. Did you recognise the values? I think it does mention key Western values though I wondered if some of them were only mentioned as a counterpoint to Thai values (but maybe vice versa could be said). Following on from #1 above the one that did strike me most was generosity in Thais. They get self-esteem from generosity and that is why they might ask you (the Farang) for things - because they want to make you feel good?? Well, I am still trying to digest this one. It sounds a bit contrived and also I just have not experienced much generosity here - it sounds like an ideal society to be pampered, in fact. This lack, though, is perhaps just due to my own limited experience. How about you - would you agree with this point about generosity and have you experienced it much?

Another thing about the values - saving face. I appreciate that this is important to Thais and should be considered sensitively. I personally have a problem with it as a value - I think saving face to the detriment of truth can be dangerous as well as plain immature. However, my other concern here was the distinction (or lack thereof) between saving face and just trying to impress the neighbours. An example being Thai families showing off the dowry at a wedding or women wearing gold as a sign of wealth. That is not saving face.

The book itself says both value systems are good and serve to maintain Social cohesion.

3. Sometimes the female Thai author threw in comments that, perhaps, misperceived Western thinking or were just pain crass.

In a part of the book explaining how important indebtedness to parents is for Thais she says that in the West it is opposite where parents have to take care of their children and have to put up with bad behaviour from them, as duty. She just overdoes it here and doesn't suggest that kids still have to respect their parents in Western countries too. I think she just doesn't get that parent usually feel a responsibility to provide for their children up to a certain age (say 18ish). The most important difference though is that Western parents do not feel their children owe them anything in contrast with Thai families.

In the same chapter she says that "your Western boyfriend doesn't understand you help your parents because you want to, not because you have to". Yet elsewhere in the book it mentions how Thai children are inculcated from an early age about their debt to their parents.

One good thing about the book is that it is non-judgemental and takes seriously that the male Westerner may have met his girlfriend in a bar. If that is the case it tries to take the relationship seriously and is sympathetic to especially the bargirl portraying her as often someone from a poor background rather than just the two dimensional gold digger that often seems to be the portrayal. However, again the female author says some strange things. She says that prostitution is not very socially acceptable in Western countries (even if you work in a "fancy" club) because the woman is losing her autonomy and this is a key Western value. In my experience, the key reason that prostitution is attacked in the West is due to the objectification of women - but this is not mentioned at all.

And there is a part of the book (in chapter 5) which is dedicated to spotting "abusive Westerners" . There is only mention of bad Westerners here - not bad Thais. And here I cringed when she wrote that an abusive Westerner can be spotted as someone who, amongst other things, expects "sex for free" and doesn't support you or your family (advocating that you "drop him" if this is the case). This made me think that the book was a polemic for Thais to get money and against Westerners rather than something trying to support mutually loving relationships.

There is some mention of "Thai Gold diggers" abusing generosity being that parents can sometimes get greedy when asking for level of dowry. I think if it wants to take the bargirl issue seriously it should perhaps mention something about gold diggers there, but maybe that is beyond the scope of the book.

OK, that is enough. In spite of the concerns mentioned above I liked the book and thought it worth reading. As I said, I am still forming my views (my GF is reading the book now) and would be interested in hearing other people's. It would be especially interesting to hear a Thai person's view (or what did your wife or GF think?).

[yabaaaa]

I liked number 2 rule best for Thais

[kyb789]

I have not read the book so my opion about it may not be completely accurate. But from what you described it sounds like the author is not giving the full picture of Thailand. What you described is very much what one would expect if you marry a poor Isaan girl. In essence, if you marry outside your social class then these demands and ways of thinking are typical. However, that is not fair to put all of Thai people into that category. If a poor Thai man marries a poor Thai girl, all the rules change. If a middle-class marries a middle class, it changes again. The expectations above don't apply.

The author may have lived here longer than me, but I think the author's view is based on his/her own experience. I have a different one. I have lived in Thailand and got tired of the money conversations, sad stories, and paying for her and all her friends, and calling back her missed calls because I was not important enough to spend a few baht on a telephone call.

I started to focus on the same type social class of women I would back home. And behold, it is so refreshing to be with someone who doesn't want money, is independent, and actually pays for dinner sometimes. I think the book is focused on the middle class foreigner -to- poor uneducated Thai relationship. Thai men don't date outside their social class. The reasons are exactly as you described in the book.

I guess if you want to deal with those headaches, that's up to you.

[Harcourt]

I bought the book a few years ago when I first started dating my GF. I found the book to be useful only to a limited extent because it expressed a very Americocentric view of "Western" men and values which did not always fit me, an Antipodean with mixed culture background.

I think the book would be usefull to couples because of it's dual language feature, and it certainly has some good advice, looking now in retrospect. But I'd add the proviso that individuals need to point out to their partners where the book doesn't quite cover their own case......the authors could not have done much better, though, as it would have been extremely difficult to get away from generalising.

It's not an expensive book, and I would reccomend it, not as a "bible" but as an interesting POV that sometimes/often matches the POV of the readers, be they Thai, or general "Western".

[EvilDrSomkid]

@ kaosoi and Harcourt.

Thanks for posting your observations on this book. I was thinking about getting it, but now I will DEFINITELY NOT buy it.

Don't need it either.

Man, assuming that the western man has to provide the GF with money? BS. Women can work.

[Harcourt]

I bought the book a few years ago when I first started dating my GF. I found the book to be useful only to a limited extent because it expressed a very Americocentric view of "Western" men and values which did not always fit me, an Antipodean with mixed culture background.

I think the book would be usefull to couples because of it's dual language feature, and it certainly has some good advice, looking now in retrospect. But I'd add the proviso that individuals need to point out to their partners where the book doesn't quite cover their own case......the authors could not have done much better, though, as it would have been extremely difficult to get away from generalising.

It's not an expensive book, and I would reccomend it, not as a "bible" but as an interesting POV that sometimes/often matches the POV of the readers, be they Thai, or general "Western".

I should add that I in no way was implying an aspersion to the Americocentric angle of the book.... just that for ME it's a tad different in some ways and so doesn't always apply.

[sanook2me]

I bought it last year.

I found it quite interesting but when i showed it to my Thai misses pointing out a few things that she may find useful like westerners enjoy a quiet time by themselves etc..

She skimmed through it and threw it on the table and said something like

"you think i'm like her, want your passport and have a big family to feed" bah!

That was that then!

I think farangs may find it interesting to read and it could be used like the bible....as its written iin Thai and English/German etc...so you find your problem and suggest she reads that page....

[bifftastic]

I have not read the book so my opion about it may not be completely accurate. But from what you described it sounds like the author is not giving the full picture of Thailand. What you described is very much what one would expect if you marry a poor Isaan girl. In essence, if you marry outside your social class then these demands and ways of thinking are typical. However, that is not fair to put all of Thai people into that category. If a poor Thai man marries a poor Thai girl, all the rules change. If a middle-class marries a middle class, it changes again. The expectations above don't apply.

The author may have lived here longer than me, but I think the author's view is based on his/her own experience. I have a different one. I have lived in Thailand and got tired of the money conversations, sad stories, and paying for her and all her friends, and calling back her missed calls because I was not important enough to spend a few baht on a telephone call.

I started to focus on the same type social class of women I would back home. And behold, it is so refreshing to be with someone who doesn't want money, is independent, and actually pays for dinner sometimes. I think the book is focused on the middle class foreigner -to- poor uneducated Thai relationship. Thai men don't date outside their social class. The reasons are exactly as you described in the book.

I guess if you want to deal with those headaches, that's up to you.

I've read the book and it doesn't just talk about poor isaan bar girls, it mentions the changing views in Thai society, slowly changing! but concentrates on cultural differences and general views that people who grow up in a certain culture deem to be inate in everyone, and tries to adress the fact that they are not the same in cultures that have developed indeppendently for thousands of years.

In my opinion, and it does say this in the book, everyone is different irrespective of social class, and any relationship needs understanding and discussion for it to work. I think the book will spark off many of those discussions between people in a relationship and for that it is very worthwhile. It should be fairly obvious to everyone that a book will not solve all your problems but if it gets you talking about them then I think it' a good thing.

As for sticking with your own 'social class' well, when i met my g/f who is poor with 2 kids to support, she took her last 400baht from the ATM and gave it to me. I'm working class myself and yes, I will be sticking to 'my own class' ie people who are genuine and don't care where you come from, what you do for a living or what they've heard about 'people like you'. Can't abide a snob!

[sanmiguellight]

OK ive never read one of these books, but do they start by western man comes to Thailand and enjoys himself so much being gods gift to women, the pace, smells and excitement LOS offers that is nothing like his quiet life back home. Eventually he grows fond of Noi at his favourite bar, she's a girl from Isaan who has 2 kids and abusive ex husband who we later find out she is still married to, and has to work bar to pay for family, she's such a beautiful girl with a lovely complexion and is so gentile and feminine, nothing like the girls back home.

He pays her to leave bar when he's away sorting his finances out back home to come to LOS and live with Noi happily ever after, but on his surprise visit to BKK finds out she'd still in the bar, but he still loves her as she's different yadayadaydada ...... but she cant understand why he thinks 30,000bht a month is enough for her to leave bar when he is rich and can afford to give her much more if he really loves her.

Somewhere in the middle of all this is the clash of Thai and Western values on issues such as money, money and money, bit on the family structure stuff, something about making sure you point your feet at people in LOS as its part of their culture, more culture stuff, too much alcohol, meeting her family who are so poor and live in a hut this enables him see why she does the job she does ... more cliched bargirl meets farang stories and eventually the book finishes and you now know a bit about Thai culture and you'll never be like Western man in this book!

If youve got to read these kind of books my friend to understand your Misses and relationship i'm thinking youve problems.

Edited August 17, 2009 by sanmiguellight

[bangla]

OK ive never read one of these books..

maybe you should.

your story has nothing to do with the thailand fever book.

you can read the first 35 pages for free here.

http://thailandfever.com/

[Chaimai]

I loved it and found it very useful in the early days of my relationship.

[Dave the Dude]

I loved it and found it very useful in the early days of my relationship.

Same same

[sanmiguellight]

OK ive never read one of these books..

maybe you should.

your story has nothing to do with the thailand fever book.

you can read the first 35 pages for free here.

http://thailandfever.com/

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

Edited August 17, 2009 by sanmiguellight

[endure]

I loved it and found it very useful in the early days of my relationship.

Same same

Me too.

[bifftastic]

The thread starts....Thailand fever...have you read it? and then there are some posts that start with...

I haven't read this book but....

wierdos!

[bangla]

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

cause and effect in one post

[abdulrahman]

I loved it and found it very useful in the early days of my relationship.

I read it time ago,found some useful things,it's american biased,it's only a book,not the solution to all your problems!

My wife didn't like it,maybe because of some truth about the Thais,in thai,so,no much discussion.

Class:no problem,most TV members are married with rich,Chula graduated Thai-Chinese women,

Only other farangs marry an Isaan girl,not them! :D

[sanmiguellight]

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

cause and effect in one post

Maybe some of us are slightly more experienced with women back home, and dont feel need to read a fcuken book about them or their mysterious culture to gain understanding.

I also don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind blows, though im sure i could read a book to tell me this.

[sanmiguellight]

This is Chris Pirazzi, the author of Thailand Fever.

Now i can safely predict that by his somewhat librarian esq look he was never too successful with the women back in America, thus isnt in a position to give advice on women or relationships as i'd be willing to put money on that he never really had a whole lot to do with women before he got off the plane in BKK 10 yrs ago.

Edited August 17, 2009 by sanmiguellight

[bangla]

so much anger and bitterness.

you do post a lot for someone who isn't interested in this topic/book.

Edited August 17, 2009 by bangla

[sanmiguellight]

so much anger and bitterness.

you do post a lot for someone who isn't interested in this topic/book.

There is no anger or bitterness here, I am merely replying to people who have commented on what i wrote.

Why do you think he looks like a bit of a lady's man?

[Geekfreaklover]

I've skimmed through it as someone lent me a copy. There was a part in it about 'Farang men needing space' which I showed my girlfriend, which helped the clingy situations I find uncomfortable.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[bangla]

so much anger and bitterness.

you do post a lot for someone who isn't interested in this topic/book.

There is no anger or bitterness here, I am merely replying to people who have commented on what i wrote.

Why do you think he looks like a bit of a lady's man?

maybe he has a golden willy and perhaps he can make women make noises you've never heard before

how do you know what women wants because you "couldn't care less about understanding women".

if you get involved with someone from a different culture than your own then you should make an effort to try to understand it otherwise the relationship is doomed.

maybe the story you wrote is your personal experience but it has absolutely nothing to do with this book.

read it before you judge it.

[Harcourt]

OK ive never read one of these books..

maybe you should.

your story has nothing to do with the thailand fever book.

you can read the first 35 pages for free here.

http://thailandfever.com/

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

I'm sure parts of the book would be useful for homosexual relationships too.

[endure]

OK ive never read one of these books..

maybe you should.

your story has nothing to do with the thailand fever book.

you can read the first 35 pages for free here.

http://thailandfever.com/

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

I'm sure parts of the book would be useful for homosexual relationships too.

They are

[sanmiguellight]

OK ive never read one of these books..

maybe you should.

your story has nothing to do with the thailand fever book.

you can read the first 35 pages for free here.

http://thailandfever.com/

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

I'm sure parts of the book would be useful for homosexual relationships too.

So Mr PC/Liberal thinks he's a bit of a comedian by having a cheap shot about homosexuals ...... i'm sure this book is better in the hands of people who found their partner off the internet, people such as yourself.

[sanmiguellight]

maybe he has a golden willy and perhaps he can make women make noises you've never heard before

how do you know what women wants because you "couldn't care less about understanding women".

I dont need to read a book to get knowledge about women, such wisdom is gained through being alive and meeting people.

if you get involved with someone from a different culture than your own then you should make an effort to try to understand it otherwise the relationship is doomed.

I wrote a topic recently asking "What is Thai Culture" and got pretty much no examples of differences. I never had culture until the age of 18 (34 now) until middle class w4nkas on TV and in the press started labelling everything with culture ie Football culture, working class culture, work culture, black culture etc.....

maybe the story you wrote is your personal experience.

Nope, i read Thaivisa for my inspiration.

[Harcourt]

I havent got a gf ..... and dont really care for reading about Thai culture or understanding Thai women .... in the same way i couldnt careless about English culture or understanding English women ..... so i'll give this book a miss.

I'm sure parts of the book would be useful for homosexual relationships too.

So Mr PC/Liberal thinks he's a bit of a comedian by having a cheap shot about homosexuals ...... i'm sure this book is better in the hands of people who found their partner off the internet, people such as yourself.

Hahaha. It's not a shot at homosexuals, it's a shot at a guy that doesn't seem to like women....that's where the comedy is.

[Harcourt]

So Mr PC/Liberal thinks he's a bit of a comedian by having a cheap shot about homosexuals ...... i'm sure this book is better in the hands of people who found their partner off the internet, people such as yourself.

For someone who hasn't read the book, who hasn't got a partner (at least not a female partner), who is not interested in anyone's culture, and gets his inspiration from an internet forum, I am not sure what you are trying to imply about internet dating.

I am sure though that you could be correct that the book might be useful to people who found their partner off the internet. Sure, why not? As well it could help those that met in a bar, at university, or through friends.....

[Jaydillon]

Hello,

A few weeks ago in a post on another topic someone suggested to me I read "Thailand Fever" in order to better understand my Thai girlfriend.

I got my hands on a copy and wanted to ask for some thoughts about the book from anyone else who has read it.

Briefly, it attempts to explain some (not all) key Western values and key Thai values and how these need to be understood and can often clash in a relationship. The book focuses on most typically a male Westerner having a Thai girlfriend (but says some points are still relevant to other combinations). It is co-authored with a Western man who has lived here a while explaining the Thai perspective to us Westerners and a Westernised Thai lady explaining values and thinking that are important to Farangs to the Thai reader. The book is written bilingually.

The key Western values cited are 1. independence (say from parents, and controlling your own affairs) 2.Privacy (my business, my space) 3. Fairness 4. Equality 5. Truth (as opposed to face saving lies).

The key Thai values are 1. Generosity (Thais derive self-esteem through giving, helping others) 2. Honouring debts 3. Honouring the ultimate debts to, especially, parents 4. the importance of hierarchy 5. saving face & avoiding confrontation 6. lastly, there is no privacy in Thailand - they tend not to like to be left alone.

Although I have some gripes with the book I think it is valuable for couples as at least a talking point and as a way of "walking in each others shoes" and trying to understand why perspectives and reactions to various things may differ. For example, a couple may have an argument about something and at the root of it is different cultural perspectives. If both sides are aware of the perspectives they can, and this is a key stated thesis of the book, COMPROMISE. It says if you are not prepared to compromise your values then you should not go through with your relationship.

I guess I am still forming my views about the book but some initial concerns are as follows:

1. Most importantly, did it favour Thai values over Western ones? 20 pages on Western values and 34 on Thai. The Westerner must accept that he has to pay dowry, have his girlfriends parents live with him one day and subsidise his girlfriend and her family. The female author tells the Thai female reader that she must tell her partner how much money she needs but must also be clear with him that she can get it no other way. It explains to her that (I paraphrase) "although your boyfriend can probably afford the things you ask him for" it is important to him that equal effort is put in. Also, the book tries to explain that Westerners are not all rich and that although salaries in Western countries are higher than Thailand the cost of living is too. It said a few other things in this vein but I sometimes wondered if the book was an apology for how Westerners should give money to Thais.

2. Did you recognise the values? I think it does mention key Western values though I wondered if some of them were only mentioned as a counterpoint to Thai values (but maybe vice versa could be said). Following on from #1 above the one that did strike me most was generosity in Thais. They get self-esteem from generosity and that is why they might ask you (the Farang) for things - because they want to make you feel good?? Well, I am still trying to digest this one. It sounds a bit contrived and also I just have not experienced much generosity here - it sounds like an ideal society to be pampered, in fact. This lack, though, is perhaps just due to my own limited experience. How about you - would you agree with this point about generosity and have you experienced it much?

Another thing about the values - saving face. I appreciate that this is important to Thais and should be considered sensitively. I personally have a problem with it as a value - I think saving face to the detriment of truth can be dangerous as well as plain immature. However, my other concern here was the distinction (or lack thereof) between saving face and just trying to impress the neighbours. An example being Thai families showing off the dowry at a wedding or women wearing gold as a sign of wealth. That is not saving face.

The book itself says both value systems are good and serve to maintain Social cohesion.

3. Sometimes the female Thai author threw in comments that, perhaps, misperceived Western thinking or were just pain crass.

In a part of the book explaining how important indebtedness to parents is for Thais she says that in the West it is opposite where parents have to take care of their children and have to put up with bad behaviour from them, as duty. She just overdoes it here and doesn't suggest that kids still have to respect their parents in Western countries too. I think she just doesn't get that parent usually feel a responsibility to provide for their children up to a certain age (say 18ish). The most important difference though is that Western parents do not feel their children owe them anything in contrast with Thai families.

In the same chapter she says that "your Western boyfriend doesn't understand you help your parents because you want to, not because you have to". Yet elsewhere in the book it mentions how Thai children are inculcated from an early age about their debt to their parents.

One good thing about the book is that it is non-judgemental and takes seriously that the male Westerner may have met his girlfriend in a bar. If that is the case it tries to take the relationship seriously and is sympathetic to especially the bargirl portraying her as often someone from a poor background rather than just the two dimensional gold digger that often seems to be the portrayal. However, again the female author says some strange things. She says that prostitution is not very socially acceptable in Western countries (even if you work in a "fancy" club) because the woman is losing her autonomy and this is a key Western value. In my experience, the key reason that prostitution is attacked in the West is due to the objectification of women - but this is not mentioned at all.

And there is a part of the book (in chapter 5) which is dedicated to spotting "abusive Westerners" . There is only mention of bad Westerners here - not bad Thais. And here I cringed when she wrote that an abusive Westerner can be spotted as someone who, amongst other things, expects "sex for free" and doesn't support you or your family (advocating that you "drop him" if this is the case). This made me think that the book was a polemic for Thais to get money and against Westerners rather than something trying to support mutually loving relationships.

There is some mention of "Thai Gold diggers" abusing generosity being that parents can sometimes get greedy when asking for level of dowry. I think if it wants to take the bargirl issue seriously it should perhaps mention something about gold diggers there, but maybe that is beyond the scope of the book.

OK, that is enough. In spite of the concerns mentioned above I liked the book and thought it worth reading. As I said, I am still forming my views (my GF is reading the book now) and would be interested in hearing other people's. It would be especially interesting to hear a Thai person's view (or what did your wife or GF think?).

The only Thai value is CASH my friend,sorry but that's how things work over in LOS