Thailand Fever

[villagefarang]

The more time you spend reading about something the less time you spend doing it. Too many people living an armchair existence or virtual life if you like. If all this stuff is so necessary how did people survive before. I just think most of this genre is a waste of time.

By way of example. I would relate my experiences and insights to my brother who would say so-and-so wrote a book about that and that I should read it. He would rather read about it while I would rather do it myself. I'm not convinced that those who need an instruction book to get through life will garner much from such books.

Edited August 22, 2009 by villagefarang

[venturalaw]

Sorry mods- duplicate.

Edited August 22, 2009 by venturalaw

[venturalaw]

The more time you spend reading about something the less time you spend doing it. Too many people living an armchair existence or virtual life if you like. If all this stuff is so necessary how did people survive before. I just think most of this genre is a waste of time.

By way of example. I would relate my experiences and insights to my brother who would say so-and-so wrote a book about that and that I should read it. He would rather read about it while I would rather do it myself. I'm not convinced that those who need an instruction book to get through life will garner much from such books.

I don't 'NEED' the books. As I said they provide information that I can either use to enhance the experience or ignore. At least I am providing myself with a choice. For those of us who read, I am speaking for those who DO NOT decide to sit in an armchair and read about a museum rather than going out and experiencing it. But when laying in bed at night, I might want to research and plan my day by reading about what is available.

Now the same could be said about one who chooses to criticize people via the internet, could it not? Is it your preference to sit at home and type on your keyboard about how you prefer to be out experiencing life? Is this how you are experiencing life - by offering your opinions to strangers via the internet? At least when one is reading a book they are presumably learning. What are you gaining by criticizing those who choose to read? Is this your method of experiencing life?

[bangla]

When I started out here, they didn't have all these silly books. I have never understood people's need to read about life, rather than experiencing it. If you have half a brain, you will do at least as well as all these so-called experts, trying to make a buck selling you what you should already know anyway.

some people have better things to do than reinventing the wheel.

you probably didn't go to school either and experienced your way to diploma's?

[bangla]

Incidentally 90% of my thai mates agree that 90% of the opinions from the more "extreme" posters is 90% B.S

86,6% of all statitics are BS.

[bifftastic]

That book is crap - full of wrong facts.

lol 'wrong facts'

what an excellent concept....'yes that may well be a fact but it's a wrong fact' LOL

[KBTexas]

I've read the book, and so has my wife, and we both agree that while it is not perfect, it is a good starting point for conversation. My biggest concern with the book, although probably realistic, was that the women were assumed to come from the sex industry. Nothing is said about how values are different for different social castes within Thai culture, and they do differ. Another poster said his wife was upset after reading the book. Mine was a bit too, because the book assumes the women are sex workers This is very disgraceful behavior to 'proper' Thai women and they are not very good at putting themselves into a different point of view. ;-) After I explained the idea of 'assumption' and asked her to think of it as if the woman was an office worker, she was a bit more open to discussion.

Thai's have a concept called nam jai, literally, juice of the heart, but really meaning being compassionate and helping others, without expecting something in return. For honorable Thai's, it is a central concept..help because it is the right thing to do, not because you expect reward for it. Personally, I like this concept much better than the 'what's in it for me?' western idea, and I see it in day to day life within my wife's family. (and obtw, not all Thai families expect you to be the ATM...but that is a LONG discussion)

My wife's family is much more Westernized and liberal than most Thai families, but they are still Thai through and through. They know I am farang, and will make social gaffs, and laugh about it instead of being upset by it. Like when I called my mother-in-law a dog (ma vs mae)...she could have easily gotten offended and been upset by that, but she realized that it was an honest mistake when my wife explained that 'ma' in English was slang for mother (after she elbowed me in the ribs), and still laughs about it to this day. (even though I have learned mae) They also understand that Western concepts of marriage are different, and I was not asked to 'pay' for my wife, which impressed me quite a lot. I DO understand my wifes commitment to her parents, and while a little excessive in Western standards, I think perhaps we might learn a thing or two from it. I help my mom too...though she is very independent and does not expect the help. It is one thing my wife and her family liked about me, because it was a thing they could understand.

Oh well, you asked about the book. It is like any other book. Read it, have your girlfriend/wife read it, and use it as a place to start your discussions. I don't agree with all of it, and my wife did not agree with all of it, but it did provide a central theme for us to talk about the differences of our cultures and the ways we can accept those differences. What more do you ask from a book?

Best Regards,

KBTexas

[fridgemagnet]

Well at least Sanmigelight has given us a break for a while..

I found the book too ' rose coloured spectacles' in it's approach.

I feel that it should have made stronger points as to our differences in thinking - eg - generosity being more of a power thing.

also

Should you find your girlfriend is 'playing away', you can throw her out, or accept the lies with a knowing look. Confession is out. Confrontation verboten.

Thais are bad liars - nobody gets called on anything over here, so no need to learn to lie well.

Thais do not consider the consequences of their actions, preferring, generally to not think too much, and just live. This helps to understand the high murder rate in Thai.

Money - spend it all, now. That is, if it's your partners money.

Debts? What foreign concept is this - you mean you want that money back?

Lastly, Chinese Thai are very different from Thai Thai

Edited August 22, 2009 by fridgemagnet

[fridgemagnet]

That's meant to be a little tongue in cheek. Not to be taken too seriously.

KB Texas - I like your comment.

Edited August 22, 2009 by fridgemagnet

[KBTexas]

snip...

I feel that it should have made stronger points as to our differences in thinking - eg - generosity being more of a power thing.

Should you find your girlfriend is 'playing away', you can throw her out, or accept the lies with a knowing look. Confession is out. Confrontation verboten.

Thais are bad liars - nobody gets called on anything over here, so no need to learn to lie well.

Thais do not consider the consequences of their actions, preferring, generally to not think too much, and just live. This helps to understand the high murder rate in Thai.

Money - spend it all, now. That is, if it's your partners money.

Debts? What foreign concept is this - you mean you want that money back?

Lastly, Chinese Thai are very different from Thai Thai

Do you mean the Western concept of charity? Yes, you are right...

Probably more of a problem if your s.o. came from the sex industry the book talked about

Westerners are much better liars than Thai's. Not sure this is a positive.

Or LA or Washington, DC. Seems to me that this is a worldwide fault in humans.

Absolutely untrue. My wife is the most frugal person I have ever met.

Again, absolutely untrue. Maybe for some, or even many, but not for all. You paint with a very broad brush.

I will have to take your word for that, since I have never personally interacted with Chinese Thai.

Perhaps I am just one of the lucky ones, but I read all of the time on here how Thai's are liars and cheats and thieves, and just do not see it unless I go somewhere like Phuket where fleecing the tourist is a sport. The people I have met are warm, honest, caring people with a pretty laid back attitude, and are friendly and helpful and much more understanding than they get credit for. It's one reason I seldom post here...because the prevailing attitude is one of derision and superiority. (I am not saying everyone here is like that, so save the text missiles folks) Yes, Thai's are DIFFERENT than Western peoples, but if you look, you can see the same good and bad in London, Atlanta, Sydney and Bangkok. Been there, seen it.

I am of the opinion that you get what you give. If you give respect, you get respect. If you give attitude, you get attitude.

Best Regards,

KBTexas

[KBTexas]

That's meant to be a little tongue in cheek. Not to be taken too seriously.

KB Texas - I like your comment.

oops...didn't see your followup until after I posted. ;-) Heh, but at least I got it off my chest.

[IanForbes]

Perhaps I am just one of the lucky ones, but I read all of the time on here how Thai's are liars and cheats and thieves, and just do not see it unless I go somewhere like Phuket where fleecing the tourist is a sport. The people I have met are warm, honest, caring people with a pretty laid back attitude, and are friendly and helpful and much more understanding than they get credit for. It's one reason I seldom post here...because the prevailing attitude is one of derision and superiority. (I am not saying everyone here is like that, so save the text missiles folks) Yes, Thai's are DIFFERENT than Western peoples, but if you look, you can see the same good and bad in London, Atlanta, Sydney and Bangkok. Been there, seen it.

I am of the opinion that you get what you give. If you give respect, you get respect. If you give attitude, you get attitude.

Best Regards,

KBTexas

I like your attitude, KBTexas. You've learned from both experience and reading. I agree with what you say, and there are no absolutes in regards to Thai behaviour. I've seen all aspects of the Thai culture, from extreme generosity to an almost total ATM concept. I have seen it with the bar girls and out where no farangs exist.

[venturalaw]

I've read the book, and so has my wife, and we both agree that while it is not perfect, it is a good starting point for conversation. My biggest concern with the book, although probably realistic, was that the women were assumed to come from the sex industry. Nothing is said about how values are different for different social castes within Thai culture, and they do differ. Another poster said his wife was upset after reading the book. Mine was a bit too, because the book assumes the women are sex workers This is very disgraceful behavior to 'proper' Thai women and they are not very good at putting themselves into a different point of view. ;-) After I explained the idea of 'assumption' and asked her to think of it as if the woman was an office worker, she was a bit more open to discussion.

Thai's have a concept called nam jai, literally, juice of the heart, but really meaning being compassionate and helping others, without expecting something in return. For honorable Thai's, it is a central concept..help because it is the right thing to do, not because you expect reward for it. Personally, I like this concept much better than the 'what's in it for me?' western idea, and I see it in day to day life within my wife's family. (and obtw, not all Thai families expect you to be the ATM...but that is a LONG discussion)

My wife's family is much more Westernized and liberal than most Thai families, but they are still Thai through and through. They know I am farang, and will make social gaffs, and laugh about it instead of being upset by it. Like when I called my mother-in-law a dog (ma vs mae)...she could have easily gotten offended and been upset by that, but she realized that it was an honest mistake when my wife explained that 'ma' in English was slang for mother (after she elbowed me in the ribs), and still laughs about it to this day. (even though I have learned mae) They also understand that Western concepts of marriage are different, and I was not asked to 'pay' for my wife, which impressed me quite a lot. I DO understand my wifes commitment to her parents, and while a little excessive in Western standards, I think perhaps we might learn a thing or two from it. I help my mom too...though she is very independent and does not expect the help. It is one thing my wife and her family liked about me, because it was a thing they could understand.

Oh well, you asked about the book. It is like any other book. Read it, have your girlfriend/wife read it, and use it as a place to start your discussions. I don't agree with all of it, and my wife did not agree with all of it, but it did provide a central theme for us to talk about the differences of our cultures and the ways we can accept those differences. What more do you ask from a book?

Best Regards,

KBTexas

It's been a few years since I read it, but I recollect that there was a chapter about dating a Thai woman who is a bar girl and/or from the sex industry, but that was it - the book did not 'assume' that Thai women are 'sex workers'.

[KBTexas]

It's been a few years since I read it, but I recollect that there was a chapter about dating a Thai woman who is a bar girl and/or from the sex industry, but that was it - the book did not 'assume' that Thai women are 'sex workers'.

It was set up in the beginning of the book IIRC, and most situations in the book were for the 'awkward' moments her background may cause.

Like you, I read it a couple of years ago, so I may misremember, but I thought that was the case. I know my wife thought that was the case from reading both the Thai and English version, because I had to convince her to read it differently.

Best Regards,

KBTexas

[villagefarang]

I still say some aspects of life are more experiential. You can read all you want about balancing on a surfboard but it won't make you a surfer. You can read about, or watch all the sports you want on TV, and it won't make you an athlete. You can read about hiking the Grand Canyon or climbing a mountain but it is not the same as doing it.

When it comes to human interaction, sometimes our experiences and even mistakes are more valuable when learning about life. We learn much more from our mistakes than from our successes or what we read. But then again, this is only my point of view and everyone is free to muddle through life as they wish.

When I started out here, they didn't have all these silly books. I have never understood people's need to read about life, rather than experiencing it. If you have half a brain, you will do at least as well as all these so-called experts, trying to make a buck selling you what you should already know anyway.

some people have better things to do than reinventing the wheel.

you probably didn't go to school either and experienced your way to diploma's?

[GungaDin]

Kaosoi.

If there was a competition for best post of the month, you'd win hands down.

I wish that I could write like you.

In fact the replies are pretty good too & useful, apart from the 34 year old chav & the village idiot.

I haven't read the book but I may do now.

Someone mentioned a new edition of Thailand-Culture Shock,

I hope this time they include chapters about,

Cheating

Lieing (sp)

Dishonesty

Theft

Murder

& Corruption

I like the Thais, there's never a dull moment here.

edit: Try to get a copy of "The Revolutionary King", I couldn't put it down! Try the 2nd hand bookshops.

It has nothing to do with relationships but may give you an insight into Thailand's social stratas... etc.

[KBTexas]

I like your attitude, KBTexas. You've learned from both experience and reading. I agree with what you say, and there are no absolutes in regards to Thai behaviour. I've seen all aspects of the Thai culture, from extreme generosity to an almost total ATM concept. I have seen it with the bar girls and out where no farangs exist.

Thanks for the kind words Ian. I am not saying these things do not exist, just that I have not personally run into them with our Thai friends.

I think if we could put ourselves in the shoes of some of those whose 'decisions' are so scorned here, we would find that perhaps our own views might be a bit different. I've never had to worry about feeding or educating my children, so I have no experience that allows me to second guess whatever decisions were arrived at, and as such, will not venture my opinion on that decision unless asked for it by the person who made it. I was raised to make sure my own house was in order, and I wish that was a bit more common than it is.

However, that does not lead to good entertainment on the farang board.

Best Regards,

KBTexas

[villagefarang]

I'm not criticizing self-help addicts, I'm just encouraging people not to be gullible armchair wimps. It is not that difficult. You will figure it out, without some self-proclaimed expert telling you how. You see, I'm actually empowering the sheep while debunking the value of shepherds.

I might also add, that in my experience people read to support their preconceived notions rather than to learn.

The more time you spend reading about something the less time you spend doing it. Too many people living an armchair existence or virtual life if you like. If all this stuff is so necessary how did people survive before. I just think most of this genre is a waste of time.

By way of example. I would relate my experiences and insights to my brother who would say so-and-so wrote a book about that and that I should read it. He would rather read about it while I would rather do it myself. I'm not convinced that those who need an instruction book to get through life will garner much from such books.

I don't 'NEED' the books. As I said they provide information that I can either use to enhance the experience or ignore. At least I am providing myself with a choice. For those of us who read, I am speaking for those who DO NOT decide to sit in an armchair and read about a museum rather than going out and experiencing it. But when laying in bed at night, I might want to research and plan my day by reading about what is available.

Now the same could be said about one who chooses to criticize people via the internet, could it not? Is it your preference to sit at home and type on your keyboard about how you prefer to be out experiencing life? Is this how you are experiencing life - by offering your opinions to strangers via the internet? At least when one is reading a book they are presumably learning. What are you gaining by criticizing those who choose to read? Is this your method of experiencing life?

Edited August 23, 2009 by villagefarang

[Padrino]

I have not read the book so my opion about it may not be completely accurate. But from what you described it sounds like the author is not giving the full picture of Thailand. What you described is very much what one would expect if you marry a poor Isaan girl. In essence, if you marry outside your social class then these demands and ways of thinking are typical. However, that is not fair to put all of Thai people into that category. If a poor Thai man marries a poor Thai girl, all the rules change. If a middle-class marries a middle class, it changes again. The expectations above don't apply.

The author may have lived here longer than me, but I think the author's view is based on his/her own experience. I have a different one. I have lived in Thailand and got tired of the money conversations, sad stories, and paying for her and all her friends, and calling back her missed calls because I was not important enough to spend a few baht on a telephone call.

I started to focus on the same type social class of women I would back home. And behold, it is so refreshing to be with someone who doesn't want money, is independent, and actually pays for dinner sometimes. I think the book is focused on the middle class foreigner -to- poor uneducated Thai relationship. Thai men don't date outside their social class. The reasons are exactly as you described in the book.

I guess if you want to deal with those headaches, that's up to you.

On the button - hear hear! People are always knocking Thai women but if you hang out with poor, uneducated, lower class (apologies) women in my country you will see the same attitudes and trends. Like you say, go for an independent woman who doesn't mind getting up at 7am to do a hard days work. However, regardless of income when you date a woman in Thailand i think the onus is still on the man to pay for things, many women in the UK still like that old fashioned approach too, and many men are often happy to be the provider (alpha status , pride etc). Also worth remembering that even independent women in Thailand may still be earning under 8k a month, they may be sharing a room and from a poor family but struggled to get a good education and pride themselves on not being a 'real thai lady' not one of the bar bunch. If you dated such a girl you would still end up paying for everything because no doubt she couldn't afford much on her wage. However she may well be an absolute gem of a GF.

There are 'poor' good women here - in fact plenty of them , my apartment block is full of single 9-5's who never seem to go out other than work and a trip to the washing machine. Strike a balance, i would hate to date a pretentious Siam shopping Victoria Beckham wannabe , but then i dont want a heartless gold digger.

That book is obviously marketed at what they consider to be the average Thai-farang relationship. As a general guide it might serve a purpose, as a relationship guide i think it is presumptious and condesending. There is no guide to life and every relationship has some individuality when compared with another- You have to feel your way through and find your own destiny and spirituality - follow your instinct not your d***, a better read for most out here would be The Celestine Prophecy (great book)

[IanForbes]

Padrino, I think you and villagefarang said the same thing, but you said it much better and don't have to explain what you meant to say. I agree that all "book knowledge" has to be backed up with personal experiences. A rookie quarterback might have all the book learning in the world but will get destroyed if thrown into the game without getting some LIVE experience previously. It's no different from some 40 year old guy who could never get a date back home and then lands with no support in a town like Pattaya. He'll get eaten alive by the bar girls. No amount of book learning is going to help him. I think that is what villagefarang was trying to say.

[villagefarang]

Where is the fun in being too concise? I prefer relating ideas in a more stylized or abstract form and then watching which three words readers focus on, while disregarding the whole meaning and intent of the message. The fixations and rants, tell me much more about the readers than they would openly admit. It is kind of like a test. You sometimes refer to it as stirring the pot. People are so boring a predictable but it is still fun to watch them squirm from time to time.

Padrino, I think you and villagefarang said the same thing, but you said it much better and don't have to explain what you meant to say. I agree that all "book knowledge" has to be backed up with personal experiences. A rookie quarterback might have all the book learning in the world but will get destroyed if thrown into the game without getting some LIVE experience previously. It's no different from some 40 year old guy who could never get a date back home and then lands with no support in a town like Pattaya. He'll get eaten alive by the bar girls. No amount of book learning is going to help him. I think that is what villagefarang was trying to say.

[bangla]

A rookie quarterback might have all the book learning in the world but will get destroyed if thrown into the game without getting some LIVE experience previously.

so you're saying a rookie quarterback who hasn't read a book in his live won't be destroyed in the game?

i think the one who has read about the game will be best prepared, or not?

It's no different from some 40 year old guy who could never get a date back home and then lands with no support in a town like Pattaya. He'll get eaten alive by the bar girls. No amount of book learning is going to help him. I think that is what villagefarang was trying to say.

i don't think thailand fever will prepare you for the bar life in pattaya, phuket or bangkok.

the book isn't about that.

[bangla]

the whole idea that books are bad is very hilarious btw.

why not hold some book burning party somewhere.

[mahtin]

"And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy."

[villagefarang]

"And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy."

I'm impressed. I didn't know King Lear was in the house;)

[mahtin]

"And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy."

I'm impressed. I didn't know King Lear was in the house;)

A Level set book

[villagefarang]

"And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy."

I'm impressed. I didn't know King Lear was in the house;)

A Level set book

Both learned and humble. A gentleman indeed.

[lioness]

The day I feel the need to read a book to manage a relationship, I will Quit. Just another money making mission I think.

[bangla]

yeah right..

that's why billions of women read those glossy's about relationships.

how many vogue quizzes have you done, lioness?

[villagefarang]

The day I feel the need to read a book to manage a relationship, I will Quit. Just another money making mission I think.

Finally an intrepid soul, loose among the sheep.