Water

[bina]

ok, i can deal w/ letters that change sound according to placement; i can deal w/wierd silent letters, etc so far thai seems a pretty straight forward written language ( i mean after learning hebrew which doesnt look like english, learning a 'new' set of letters doesnt bother me) but>>

why does the word 'nam' (water) not have something depicting the 'm' sound at the end or to the side of it, but has a little 'thingy' over the saleh ah or whatever its called (the thing that looks like a 'resh' in hebrew or an upside down candy cane ....i mean, 'nom' milk doesnt do that, so 'nam' should be similar??

(by the way that is how i remember all the letters, by physical associations...sorry forgot how to pop up the virtual keyboard..

any way... so why???

the thais couldnt explain to me.... too drunk when i asked and they didnt understand why it bothers me at all....

[Khun Larry]

Who wants to know?

[meadish_sweetball]

ำ "am" is a compound vowel. When it comes to vowels in Thai, the combination of the same signs are used to represent different sounds. Thus, the symbol sara ee (เ - the closest equivalent in English spelling is "ay" although the Thai sound is NOT a diphtong (vowel glide) and should be pronounced like in Scottish English) is used as a compound part in sounds like "ia", "oey" "oe"/"er" and "eua" although it is difficult to see "why".

I cant give you an explanation as to "why" ำ "am" looks like it does; (Richard W is probably the man for that job) but only tell you that you have to memorize that the sound "am" is written ำ in 9 cases out of 10 and be done with it.

Another way to spell this sound is to use "mai han aakaat" ้ and mor maa ม , but this is an irregular way to spell the sound (seems more logical at first though, but logic is not always the best tool to apply to language learning).

A third way (also irregular) to produce the same sound is to use 2 ror reuas and and one mor maa, such as in the word for "karma" in Thai; กรรม kam

Edited March 8, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[konangrit]

ok, i can deal w/ letters that change sound according to placement; i can deal w/wierd silent letters, etc  so far thai seems a pretty straight forward written language ( i mean after learning hebrew which doesnt look like english, learning a 'new' set of letters doesnt bother me) but>>

why does the word 'nam' (water) not have something depicting the 'm' sound at the end or to the side of it, but has a little 'thingy' over the saleh ah or whatever its called (the thing that looks like a 'resh' in hebrew or an upside down candy cane ....i mean, 'nom' milk doesnt do that, so 'nam' should be similar??

(by the way that is how i remember all the letters, by physical associations...sorry forgot how to pop up the virtual keyboard..

any way... so why???

the thais couldnt explain to me.... too drunk when i asked and they didnt understand why it bothers me at all....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

น้ำ (Water) is made up of the Consonant[ น (N) and the vowel] ำ (AM) along with the tone mark ้ (MAI TOH).

The vowel ำ is what dipicts the 'm' sound as it is roughly pronounced as 'am'. The tone mark ้ mai toh indicates that this word is spoken with a high tone. In other words it can indicate a falling tone, depending on the initial consonant.

Edited March 8, 2005 by konangrit

[Richard W]

ำ "am" is a compound vowel. When it comes to vowels in Thai, the combination of the same signs are used to represent different sounds. Thus, the symbol sara ee (เ - the closest equivalent in English spelling is "ay" although the Thai sound is NOT a diphtong (vowel glide) and should be pronounced like in Scottish English) is used as a compound part in sounds like "ia", "oey" "oe"/"er" and "eua" although it is difficult to see "why".

• เอา ea is perfectly natural if you remember that Common Germanic *au yields Old English long /ea/, e.g. German Baum 'tree' and English beam/. Actually, I suspect it may effectively be โอา, with า being interpreted as a general length mark, as in ฤๅ. There are some pretty weird interpretations of this two part symbol around as combinations of other symbols - in Burmese it is interpreted as including a virama! (A virama is the helpful mark showing that a final consonant has no inherent/implicit vowel associated with it - the symbol is phinthu in Thai and is rarely used for Thai. )
  
• เออ = oe - Yep, I suppose the Thais must be crazy to use 'e' and 'o' instead of 'o' and 'e'.
  
• I've seen a statement that the symbols have been rearranged in เอีย. It would make a lot of sense if the original form were อีเย, but I don't know if that was the original form. It's entirely conceivable that เอือ has a similar history.
  

I cant give you an explanation as to "why"  ำ "am" looks like it does; (Richard W is probably the man for that job) but only tell you that you have to memorize that the sound "am" is written  ำ in 9 cases out of 10 and be done with it.

Actually, น้ำ [H]naam is one of the few words for which the symbol is appropriate! The hooked part is the /aa/ vowel in Indian alphabets. The circle, called nikkhahit in Thai, niggahita in Pali, is the symbol for an indeterminate nasal. When talking of India's most important alphabet, the Devanagari alphabet, it is called anusvara. When transcribing Sanskrit, it is written with a dotted m.

As most Indian alphabets have implicit vowels, anusvara by itself can imply /am/ or /an/ or even /ang/. Indeed, in the Lanna script, nikkhahit by itself now represents /ang/. In the Cambodian script, nikkhahit represents one type of /am/; nikkhait on the /aa/ vowel, represents a different type of /am/. This is probably very close to the root cause. The Thai combination is also used in the Lao and Lanna scripts for /am/. In the (Thai?) tradition of reading Pali, the plain word-final nikkhahit (typically used as an accusative ending) is pronounce /ang/. On the other hand, the traditional

pronunciation of plain nikkhahit (i.e. anusvara) for Sanskrit is /am/.

There are some even weirder combinations with nikkhahit. According to traditional Thai grammar, sara ue (อึ) is sara i + nikkhahit. The Royal Institute Dictionary even goes so far as to spell the Sanskrit singha สึห! Perhaps someone decided nikkhahit was just an arbitrary modifer (cf. Arabic tanwin, where the vowel symbols are doubled to indicate a final /n/). The Lana script uses a nikkhahit and a squiggle below (origiin uncertain) for the vowel sound ออ in open syllables, and Lao just uses what appears to be a nikkhahit in open syllables!

Another way to spell this sound is to use "mai han aakaat"  ้ and mor maa ม , but this is an irregular way to spell the sound (seems more logical at first though, but logic is not always the best tool to apply to language learning).

A third way (also irregular) to produce the same sound is to use 2 ror reuas and and one mor maa, such as in the word for "karma" in Thai; กรรม kam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ไม่ใช่ธรรมชาติ

Edited March 8, 2005 by Richard W

[yoot]

why does the word 'nam' (water) not have something depicting the 'm' sound at the end or to the side of it,

It's because อำ is a compound vowel which has ม as the final consonant.

There are 4 compound vowels which have the sound of the final consonants themselves,

อำ = อะ + ม

ไอ = อะ + ย

ใอ = อะ + ย

เอา = อะ + ว

And this is the reason why the syllables with these vowels are considered as live syllables even they are short vowels.

Another way to spell this sound is to use "mai han aakaat" ้ and mor maa ม , but this is an irregular way to spell the sound (seems more logical at first though, but logic is not always the best tool to apply to language learning).

A third way (also irregular) to produce the same sound is to use 2 ror reuas and and one mor maa, such as in the word for "karma" in Thai; กรรม kam

Words which pronounced as อำ can be written as อำ, อัม and อรรม following by these rules,

1. Thai words or words which transformed from the Eastern Languange except Pali and Sanskrit or corrupted from Bali/Sansrit อ before น and ม are written as อำ

E.g. จำ , ดำ , น้ำ , ไหหลำ , ฮุนหนำ , อนันต์-อำนนต์ , อมฤต-อำมฤต , อมหิต-อำมหิต ฯลฯ

2. Words from Pali/Sanskrit which have ป , ผ , พ , ภ , ม after them.

E.g. สัมประสิทธิ์ , อัมพร , สัมนา , คัมภีร์ ฯลฯ

But you may see some words which have ป , ผ , พ , ภ , ม after them and written as อำ ,it's because they are Thai words not Pali/Sanskrit e.g. อำเภอ ,อำพัน ,อำไพ ฯลฯ

3. Sanskrit words which have รฺม after อะ use อรรม .

E.g. กรรม , ธรรม , จรรม ฯลฯ

4. Some Sanskrit words which the final syllables pronounced as อำ can be used อัม even there are not ป , ผ , พ , ภ , ม after them.

E.g. บุษราคัม , ปกรณัม ฯ

There are some even weirder combinations with nikkhahit. According to traditional Thai grammar, sara ue (อึ) is sara i + nikkhahit. The Royal Institute Dictionary even goes so far as to spell the Sanskrit singha สึห! Perhaps someone decided nikkhahit was just an arbitrary modifer

As you know nikkhahit is represented ง as the final consonant of a syllable in Pali and ม in Sanskrit. And it can be อัง in Pali อัม in Sanskrit . Sometimes it can also be ง as the final consonant of a syllable in Pali and Sanskrit.

For สึห in The Royal Institute Dictionary ,It just looks like สระอึ ,in fact it's อิ with nikkhahit.

The example for these words, ( sorry I can type nikkhahit separate from consonants)

อํ - อัง or อัม , อิ(with nikkhahit above) - อิง or อิม , อุ (with nikkhahit above) - อุง or อุม , สึห - สิงห ฯลฯ

[Edward B]

Well if you can understand all that dribble then you're a better man than I Gangadin!

Note that น้ำ is pronounced น้าม (long vowel, high tone). It is one of those exceptions to the rule.

[yoot]

Note that น้ำ is pronounced น้าม (long vowel, high tone). It is one of those exceptions to the rule.

It's totaly wrong to say น้ำ is pronounced น้าม ( long vowel).

You may hear it's pronounced as น้าม but in fact ,for Thais when we write the pronunciation of this word we still have to write it as น้ำ ( short vowel ). There is no exception for this word.

[Edward B]

So are you saying that น้ำ is pronounced the same as ซ้ำ ???

I was trying to explain to other farangs that the pronunciation for น้ำ is different from other อำ words Perhaps you prefer 'naam'.

[yoot]

So are you saying that น้ำ is pronounced the same as ซ้ำ ???

Yes! น้ำ is pronounced the same as ซ้ำ , ช้ำ ,ล้ำ ,ค้ำ

I was trying to explain to other farangs that the pronunciation for น้ำ is different from other อำ words Perhaps you prefer 'naam'.

It's different because you did it.

Edited March 9, 2005 by yoot

[meadish_sweetball]

Hmm, khun yoot, I think you may be confusing spelling with pronunciation.

I know the word for water can only be spelt one way, but the normal pronunciation of the vowel sound in this word is not as short as in "sam" and "lam"... except for in compunds like "nam khaeng".

(I am not on a Thai keyboard now, sorry).

Edited March 9, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[yoot]

Hmm, khun yoot, I think you may be confusing spelling with pronunciation.

No.

I know the word for water can only be spelt one way, but the normal pronunciation of the vowel sound in this word is not as short as in "sam" and "lam"... except for in compunds like "nam khaeng".

น้ำ itself is short even it stands alone or in compounds. I don't know why your guys have the idea that it can be pronounced in different way. You might hear some Thais pronounced it as น้าม , this is incorrect but people are used to. I'm talking about the correct grammar. There is not such an exception as this. But for speaking lots of words are pronounced different from the spelling.

E.g. มั้ย the correct word is ไหม but people are used to pronounce it as มั้ย

ทานข้าวไหมครับ - ทานข้าวมั้ยครับ

ผมหิวน้ำ - ผมหิวน้าม

จะไปไหน - จะปายหนาย - จะไปหนาย -จะปายไหน

That was I mean.

[Richard W]

Note that น้ำ is pronounced น้าม (long vowel, high tone). It is one of those exceptions to the rule.

It's totaly wrong to say น้ำ is pronounced น้าม ( long vowel).

You may hear it's pronounced as น้าม but in fact ,for Thais when we write the pronunciation of this word we still have to write it as น้ำ ( short vowel ). There is no exception for this word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you saying that when speaking carefully, น้ำ is spoken with a short vowel? Would pronouncing it thus be seen as any more unusual than speaking carefully?

The textbooks in English generally teach this words as having a long vowel, though I have seen the remark that this is a Bangkok pronunciation. The RID on-line only indicates the pronunciation with a short vowel, but it tends not to mark vowel lengths which differ from the spelling. ไม้ is another example.

Incidentally, because of the small, fixed font-size and the age of some of the members, we should remember to mark Thai text as 'large' on this forum.

[meadish_sweetball]

Hmm, khun yoot, I think you may be confusing spelling with pronunciation.

No.

I know the word for water can only be spelt one way, but the normal pronunciation of the vowel sound in this word is not as short as in "sam" and "lam"... except for in compunds like "nam khaeng".

น้ำ itself is short even it stands alone or in compounds. I don't know why your guys have the idea that it can be pronounced in different way. You might hear some Thais pronounced it as น้าม , this is incorrect but people are used to. I'm talking about the correct grammar. There is not such an exception as this. But for speaking lots of words are pronounced different from the spelling.

E.g. มั้ย the correct word is ไหม but people are used to pronounce it as มั้ย

ทานข้าวไหมครับ - ทานข้าวมั้ยครับ

ผมหิวน้ำ - ผมหิวน้าม

จะไปไหน - จะปายหนาย - จะไปหนาย -จะปายไหน

That was I mean.

You and I follow different methods in our approach to this issue.

The method you use in this case is called "prescriptive" - you want to tell people how they should speak.

The method I use is called "descriptive". I describe the language such as it is used by most people, not as it "should be".

My supporting argument is that people spoke a Thai language before the Thai alphabet was invented.

This is true for every language - some languages do not have a writing system, but despite this fact, they are still languages, and they still have systems for grammar and pronunciation.

Writing systems are more or less static, but spoken language is dynamic and changes with time. New words are invented, and borrowed from other languages, and pronunciation changes with time. This is a natural process.

Honestly speaking Khun Yoot, in conversations with your family and close friends in informal situations, do you pronounce "ไหม" with a rising tone (siang jattawaa) or a high tone (siang trii)? What about น้ำ - short or long?

I have never heard ไหม or น้ำ pronounced like their writing suggests, except for when people read them out loud from a text.

For the sake of the argument, in the past, people used "kuu" and "meung" as normal pronouns - they were not impolite.

If you say that language conventions should be followed, then it is also wrong to use "khun" and "phom/diichan" for everyday speech today, we should all say "kuu" and "meung" instead. Right?

[bina]

whoaaa!!

first: in hebrew for instance, the word for lighter is 'matzat' and that is what i was taught in formal class; if i ask for a 'maztat' at a kiosk, i get a very strange stare and chances are the price goes up as i look like an american geek who studied with major rabbis and not your average person ; so i guess the same goes for thai: proper pronounciation as opposed to street (and eventually acceptable) pronounciation... we have an academy of the hebrew language that always decide on wierd spellings and pronounciations but in the streets, no one knows of these decisions except for teachers who should be pronouncing things properly: ex: ;'lingoa' instead of 'ligoa' (to touch) the 'n' disappears and most kids now adays dont even spell it properly in school....

น ำ cant get the hang yet of the virtual keyboard and cant put stickers on dual language keyboard... anyway, i just have to memorize certain combinations and accept them for what they are, no logic.... ok.... will struggle on.... thanx for all the input it is all very interesting actually , i'll definately remember this combo as 'em' sound....

[yoot]

You and I follow different methods in our approach to this issue.

The method you use in this case is called "prescriptive" - you want to tell people how they should speak.

The method I use is called "descriptive". I describe the language such as it is used by most people, not as it "should be".

You are right.

Are you saying that when speaking carefully, น้ำ is spoken with a short vowel? Would pronouncing it thus be seen as any more unusual than speaking carefully?

This is also correct.

The textbooks in English generally teach this words as having a long vowel, though I have seen the remark that this is a Bangkok pronunciation. The RID on-line only indicates the pronunciation with a short vowel, but it tends not to mark vowel lengths which differ from the spelling. ไม้ is another example.

ไม้ is the same case as น้ำ .

Why RID on-line doesn't show another pronunciation?

It's because there is only the one pronunciation of it as its form.

If it's irregular such as กำเนิด , RID on-line would show the correct pronunciation of it as กำ-เหฺนิด

Honestly speaking Khun Yoot, in conversations with your family and close friends in informal situations, do you pronounce "ไหม" with a rising tone (siang jattawaa) or a high tone (siang trii)? What about น้ำ - short or long?

Honestly speaking I use all ไหม ,มั้ย ,น้ำ ,น้าม

But in formal situations I often use ไหม and น้ำ.

For the sake of the argument, in the past, people used "kuu" and "meung" as normal pronouns - they were not impolite.

If you say that language conventions should be followed, then it is also wrong to use "khun" and "phom/diichan" for everyday speech today, we should all say "kuu" and "meung" instead. Right?

For your examples, these word were invented in the right way and acception. You can see these words shown in RID-online. But words in this discussion are acceptable only in informal situations. So if you ask any of Thai teachers about it the answer would be the same as mine.

Nowadays,most of Thai teachers said" why many of Thais speaking Thai in this way(some words with English accent or such words we named as ภาษาวิบัติ)?"

Does it mean they don't move with the progress of time? Many words have been changed, should we accept all of them ? If so I think we have to change our text books every years. And what will be happened with people who have learned it before it changed?

Edited March 9, 2005 by yoot

[Richard W]

If it's irregular  such as กำเนิด , RID on-line would show the correct pronunciation of it as กำ-เหฺนิด

Actually, this word is quite regular, especially if you know it's a derivative of เกิด. The only issue is how much this is a Thai rule as opposed to a Khmer rule.

Nowadays,most of Thai teachers said" why many of Thais speaking Thai in this way(some words with English accent or such words  we named as ภาษาวิบัติ)?"

Does it mean they don't move with the progress of time? Many words have been changed, should we accept all of them ? If so I think we have to change our text books every years. And what will be happened with people who have learned it before it changed? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obsolescence in the teaching of foreign languages is a common problem. One must accept the noble truth of impermanence (อนิจจัง, Anicca, sometimes rendered as Aniccam), which takes us back to the original topic.

[bina]

khun yoot, et al:

thank you all....

and actually, khun yoot, we do change textbooks every year unfortunately for us parents as it costs a fortune and we have to buy the books for the children, and the changes are often small and insignificant .....

[yoot]

and actually, khun yoot, we do change textbooks every year unfortunately for us parents as it costs a fortune and we have to buy the books for the children, and the changes are often small and insignificant .....

I know. But my point is textbooks should be changed if new things are acceptable by the rules or by the experiment not be changed because of people are used to especially studying language. If so what if we use cuz,luv,g8,ic ,u and so many which the new generation people use them in present time? Will you accept that it's correct and we have to change to use as them? Can we use it in the exam?

Thanks to all of you. We are here to exchange our point of views. Right? Nothing serious

[bina]

a new acceptable dialect will be called :: sms

black (american ) english took years to be recongnized as 'legal'.... etc.... so who knows....

[meadish_sweetball]

and actually, khun yoot, we do change textbooks every year unfortunately for us parents as it costs a fortune and we have to buy the books for the children, and the changes are often small and insignificant .....

I know. But my point is textbooks should be changed if new things are acceptable by the rules or by the experiment not be changed because of people are used to especially studying language. If so what if we use cuz,luv,g8,ic ,u and so many which the new generation people use them in present time? Will you accept that it's correct and we have to change to use as them? Can we use it in the exam?

Thanks to all of you. We are here to exchange our point of views. Right? Nothing serious

Definitely - thank you too. Fruitful discussion is the mother of civilization. :-)

To reply to your example:

I don't think we should change the spelling of words in Thai or English - but if the majority of the population change the original pronunciation or meaning of a word, the text books and language teachers must accept this fact and let their students know about it. Of course, they should mention the original meaning of the word so the student can understand that the new spelling or meaning can cause confusion or irritation among older or more educated speakers of the language.

If I were a teacher I might say something like this: "Yes, nowadays many people use irregular spellings like 'cuz, gr8, c ya" etcetera, and this is acceptable for casual SMS and chat communication but not suitable for business letters and formal texts. If you choose to use this language you run the risk of sounding uneducated or possibly disrespectful. On the other hand, if you speak too formally with your friends you run the risk of sounding boring or stiff. Please be aware of the difference."

In Sweden we have an old saying:

"Speak with the peasants in the manner of peasants, and use Latin with the scholars."

[sabaijai]

Just to offer my two satang, each of the five Thai instructors I've had over the years -- native speakers all -- taught me that น้ำ was pronounced with a long vowel and that this was an exception to the rule.

Beyond that, I've lived in Thailand 29 years now and can't recall ever hearing anyone pronounce that word with a short vowel. One has only to contrast it with the same word without the mai thoh - eg นำ - to hear the obvious difference.

There are other instances where what is taught doesn't accord with reality with regard to Thai language. As George McFarland pointed out in the 1940s, and backed by phonological testing, Thai has six tones, not five. Yet it is taught as having five tones ...

When usage and prescription differ that widely, textbooks should follow. If RID doesn't follow usage in this case, then it's simply behind the times. At least that's how English language dictionaries are revised, edition after edition.

By the way, does anyone know whether the RID remained exactly the same since its inception? I have two different print editions and the latest appears to be larger than the earlier one.

[yoot]

I have to say after discussing about this word, it's really stuck on my mind. I asked many people who are around and the answer of them were yes ,they pronounced it as long vowel but if anyone ask them it's short or long itself , they said the answer would be short. Then I seached on the internet and I was shocked. In many webboards this word was a topic of discussion among Thais too. None of each discussions I have read, all people agreed that it's long. It was about the same as I asked people who are around. Later I read on some papers which are reliable,the information mentions about this word is pronounced as long,but not all of Thais pronounced it as long. There still be a lot of people in countryside pronounced it as short. It's started to pronounce as long from people in the central of Thailand.Even in a paper from RID has mentioned about this word too. It says the original of this word was pronounced as short and distorted to long later. Why RID doesn't change the pronunciation to long? The explanation is although people are used to with the pronunciation of this word as long but people still be used to the form of it as short. All things which are used to is hardly to change. And the most important is there are many words which compound with น้ำ and pronounce as short,so it doesn't make sense to change it. On another paper mentions about this word in Laos, Laotian still pronounce this word as short. There are a lot of words are happened in this way,such as เช้า(morning)-ช้าว , ท่าน(you)- ทั่น ,เก้า (nine)-ก้าว ,etc. Laotian pronounce these words as their forms while Thais have changed them.

So, it seem I'm a little bit behind the times.

Beyond that, I've lived in Thailand 29 years now and can't recall ever hearing anyone pronounce that word with a short vowel. One has only to contrast it with the same word without the mai thoh - eg นำ - to hear the obvious difference.

I've lived in Thailand more than 40 years now. I often hear people pronounce this word with a short vowel even recently a dj on a radio station did it.

I have to apologize Edward B for saying his explanation is totally wrong.

I hope this would be clear for us.

Edited March 11, 2005 by yoot

[Edward B]

Appology accepted.

[snowleopard]

QUOTE(yoot @ 2005-02-18 23:44:34)

my Thai is perfect

I wouldn't say my Thai is perfect if it is not

คนฉลาดย่อมไม่พยายามทำในสิ่งที่เป็นไปไม่ได้

QUOTE(meadish sweetball @ 2005-03-09 18:09:01

Hmm, khun yoot, I think you may be confusing spelling with pronunciation.

QUOTES yoot

Hmm, khun yoot, I think you may be confusing spelling with pronunciation.

No.

It's totaly wrong to say น้ำ is pronounced น้าม ( long vowel).

There is no exception for this word.

I don't know why your guys have the idea that it can be pronounced in different way.

It's different because you did it

I asked many people who are around and the answer of them were yes ,they pronounced it as long vowel

Then I seached on the internet and I was shocked.

So, it seem I'm a little bit behind the times

การกระทำย่อมดีกว่าคำพูด จงทำก่อนพูด แล้วจึงพูดตามการกระทำของท่าน

The claim that your Thai is perfect has now been positively validated as false,and your imperfection has hereby been clearly shown and conclusively validated.

Your Thai is in fact imperfect and that fact has been proven beyond reasonable doubt,both in your posts and by your own public admission above!

I rest my case your honor.

ระฆังแตกเสียงก็ย่อมไม่ดัง

ลวดหนามในน้ำ

yoot

I've lived in Thailand more than 40 years now

Originally not by your own volition though but rather by involuntarily emerging onto the domestic scene as yet another of them wild hayseed specimen,among countless others,which was randomly sown and then allowed to mature into this fully immature runt on the fertile soil of this amazing land,all as a direct consequence of the rut and estrus which was once experienced by its preceding generation.

Speaking of that generation and of domestic inbreeding,here we can see how they both used to look like in their heydays of over 40 years ago.

And here's an undated pix from their Song-khran family reunion,with their son posing so proudly and smugly in the middle.

สำเนียงส่อภาษา กิริยาส่อสกุล=The tree is known by its fruit

คนอายุสี่สิบ ถ้าไม่เป็นหมอก็เป็นคนโง่ไปเลย

ความรู้ไม่ได้มีมาตั้งแต่เกิด

yoot

my Thai is perfect

I wouldn't say my Thai is perfect if it is not

ผมคิดว่าเธอสร้างความประทับใจว่าเป็นคนไม่ซื่อสัตย์

แมลงวันจะไม่บินเข้าปากที่หุบไว้หรอก

Anyway,happy Songkhran to everyone!

Snowleopard

[yoot]

this word was a topic of discussion among Thais too. None of each discussions I have read, all people agreed that it's long. It was about the same as I asked people who are around. Later I read on some papers which are reliable,the information mentions about this word is pronounced as long,but not all of Thais pronounced it as long. There still be a lot of people in countryside pronounced it as short. It's started to pronounce as long from people in the central of Thailand.Even in a paper from RID has mentioned about this word too. It says the original of this word was pronounced as short and distorted to long later.

If you read this clearly you might understand. Many Thai words are pronounced different from their form,but all Thais are used to with them. Thais in some parts of Thai may not pronounce it the same so no one correct and no one wrong,it depends. Why RID doesn't put the length in every pronunciation of Thai words? It's because if we spell it as it form we will get the correct pronunciation by itself. Don't ask every Thais if any words is short or long, they probably don't know , you can try this with you friend.

That's why I asked people who is around to test my understanding.

Sorry everyone here. I can't keep quiet while someone try to insult me. I hope everyone here would understand. I want to clear with "snowleopard". I join in this forum because I think I can help others who want to study Thai which is my langauge and I'm proud with my language. I haven't got any advantage from you guys. I just wonder why someone here seem want to offense me.

คนฉลาดย่อมไม่พยายามทำในสิ่งที่เป็นไปไม่ได้

You are right. Sometimes someone may do something wrong by not intend to do. I said "my Thai is perfect" and it means I can write , speak, and read them in the proper way. As someone here said no one perfect ,I think I shoud accept this to satisfy someone here who try to bite me. (คนที่คอยจิกคอยกัดคนอื่นตลอดเวลาแบบนี้ มีค่าน้อยกว่าแมลงหรือสัตว์เลื้อยคลานชั้นต่ำตัวหนึ่งซะอีก ) .I think you might be hurt that someone here can use Thai language better than you can but it doesn't make sense why you can't accept that. You are not native Thai . You have limit in Thai language the same as I have limit in English langauge. There is not any problem with me to accept that. (มันเจ็บปวดนักเหรอไง)

การกระทำย่อมดีกว่าคำพูด จงทำก่อนพูด แล้วจึงพูดตามการกระทำของท่าน

If you understand this sentense you should know that you did the same. You often give others the wrong explainations, but it isn't my behave to point out other's fault if it isn't effected to others. If I did it I'm ready to apologise if I'm wrong. (ผู้ที่เจริญแล้วย่อมรู้จักขออภัยเมื่อทำผิด และไม่คิดจองล้างจองผลาญผู้อื่น อย่างเช่นคนถ่อยบางคน)

คนอายุสี่สิบ ถ้าไม่เป็นหมอก็เป็นคนโง่ไปเลย

ความรู้ไม่ได้มีมาตั้งแต่เกิด

If you really have this idea , you are more foolish than I thought. People in forty's can be whatever they want. And yes, ความรู้ไม่ได้มีมาตั้งแต่เกิด. Should I expect this from you too?

ผมคิดว่าเธอสร้างความประทับใจว่าเป็นคนไม่ซื่อสัตย์

แมลงวันจะไม่บินเข้าปากที่หุบไว้หรอก

ถูกต้อง แมลงวันจะไม่บินเข้าปากที่หุบไว้หรอก เพราะฉะนั้น กรุณาหุบปากของคุณ ก่อนที่แมลงวันที่บินเข้าไปตายในปากคุณ จะส่งกลิ่นเหม็นมากไปกว่านี้

คุณคิดว่าสิ่งที่คุณพยายามจะยกมานี่ จะสร้างความประทับใจให้กับผู้อื่นได้หรือ ขอโทษ สำหรับผม มันเป็นสิ่งที่เด็กทารกที่ปากยังไม่สิ้นกลิ่นน้ำนม หรือไม่ก็คนที่ไม่มีความเป็นลูกผู้ชายเพียงพอเท่านั้น ถึงจะทำกัน หวังว่าคุณคงจะอ่านเข้าใจนะครับ

โชคดี และสุขสันต์วันสงกรานต์

Edited April 14, 2005 by yoot

[Richard W]

I haven't got any advantage from you guys. I just wonder why someone here seem want to offense me.

I think you might be hurt that someone here can use Thai language better than you can but it doesn't make sense why you can't accept that. You are not native Thai.

Leopards are not social animals.

[snowleopard]

this word was a topic of discussion among Thais too. None of each discussions I have read, all people agreed that it's long. It was about the same as I asked people who are around. Later I read on some papers which are reliable,the information mentions about this word is pronounced as long,but not all of Thais pronounced it as long. There still be a lot of people in countryside pronounced it as short. It's started to pronounce as long from people in the central of Thailand.Even in a paper from RID has mentioned about this word too. It says the original of this word was pronounced as short and distorted to long later.

If you read this clearly you might understand. Many Thai words are pronounced different from their form,but all Thais are used to with them. Thais in some parts of Thai may not pronounce it the same so no one correct and no one wrong,it depends. Why RID doesn't put the length in every pronunciation of Thai words? It's because if we spell it as it form we will get the correct pronunciation by itself. Don't ask every Thais if any words is short or long, they probably don't know , you can try this with you friend.

That's why I asked people who is around to test my understanding.

Sorry everyone here. I can't keep quiet while someone try to insult me. I hope everyone here would understand. I want to clear with "snowleopard". I join in this forum because I think I can help others who want to study Thai which is my langauge and I'm proud with my language. I haven't got any advantage from you guys. I just wonder why someone here seem want to offense me.

คนฉลาดย่อมไม่พยายามทำในสิ่งที่เป็นไปไม่ได้

You are right. Sometimes someone may do something wrong by not intend to do. I said "my Thai is perfect" and it means I can write , speak, and read them in the proper way. As someone here said no one perfect ,I think I shoud accept this to satisfy someone here who try to bite me. (คนที่คอยจิกคอยกัดคนอื่นตลอดเวลาแบบนี้ มีค่าน้อยกว่าแมลงหรือสัตว์เลื้อยคลานชั้นต่ำตัวหนึ่งซะอีก ) .I think you might be hurt that someone here can use Thai language better than you can but it doesn't make sense why you can't accept that. You are not native Thai . You have limit in Thai language the same as I have limit in English langauge. There is not any problem with me to accept that. (มันเจ็บปวดนักเหรอไง)

การกระทำย่อมดีกว่าคำพูด จงทำก่อนพูด แล้วจึงพูดตามการกระทำของท่าน

If you understand this sentense you should know that you did the same. You often give others the wrong explainations, but it isn't my behave to point out other's fault if it isn't effected to others. If I did it I'm ready to apologise if I'm wrong. (ผู้ที่เจริญแล้วย่อมรู้จักขออภัยเมื่อทำผิด และไม่คิดจองล้างจองผลาญผู้อื่น อย่างเช่นคนถ่อยบางคน)

คนอายุสี่สิบ ถ้าไม่เป็นหมอก็เป็นคนโง่ไปเลย

ความรู้ไม่ได้มีมาตั้งแต่เกิด

If you really have this idea , you are more foolish than I thought. People in forty's can be whatever they want. And yes, ความรู้ไม่ได้มีมาตั้งแต่เกิด. Should I expect this from you too?

ผมคิดว่าเธอสร้างความประทับใจว่าเป็นคนไม่ซื่อสัตย์

แมลงวันจะไม่บินเข้าปากที่หุบไว้หรอก

ถูกต้อง แมลงวันจะไม่บินเข้าปากที่หุบไว้หรอก เพราะฉะนั้น กรุณาหุบปากของคุณ ก่อนที่แมลงวันที่บินเข้าไปตายในปากคุณ จะส่งกลิ่นเหม็นมากไปกว่านี้

คุณคิดว่าสิ่งที่คุณพยายามจะยกมานี่ จะสร้างความประทับใจให้กับผู้อื่นได้หรือ ขอโทษ สำหรับผม มันเป็นสิ่งที่เด็กทารกที่ปากยังไม่สิ้นกลิ่นน้ำนม หรือไม่ก็คนที่ไม่มีความเป็นลูกผู้ชายเพียงพอเท่านั้น ถึงจะทำกัน หวังว่าคุณคงจะอ่านเข้าใจนะครับ

โชคดี และสุขสันต์วันสงกรานต์

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

หมาเห่ามักจะไม่กัด

ผู้ประสบความสำเร็จคือผู้ที่เผชิญกับความผิดหวังอย่างมีอารมณ์ขัน

สุขสันต์วันสงกรานต์เหมือนกัน=Same ๆ

[snowleopard]

I haven't got any advantage from you guys. I just wonder why someone here seem want to offense me.

I think you might be hurt that someone here can use Thai language better than you can but it doesn't make sense why you can't accept that. You are not native Thai.

Leopards are not social animals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

เสือย่อมไม่ทิ้งลาย

[yoot]

หมาเห่ามักจะไม่กัด

Ok. If you accept that you are a dog..so it was my mistake to think that you are a human being . Sorry, I shouldn't reply.