Job Req: Thai Nationality Only

[cgit6]

Is it the same here? let me try to focus again on concerns related to what it means to be a professional: to have a career rather than just a job. In what industries do we find Thais that truly differentiate here?

<deleted> are your talking about..Job/Career ? boils down to the same...amount of money you get paid

My Professional career has been over 20 years....but in my eyes its still only a job, and I do my job or practice my career because it gives me money to do the things I want to do or buy.

"Boils down to" is different than being the same in nature. If a doctor apporached his career as a store clerk does his job then you might have a some issues with medical treatment (uh..hey dont we find that?)

So in technology, knowledge workers need to monitor short and long-term trends and learn about new processes (not just new software) in order to have a logical progression of work (and possibly jobs) towards a career.

[cgit6]

Another tidbit of info: in manufacturing, the ISO process management scheme has become quite popular. Inherited directly from this standard we see the ITIL process management & certification for technology work. An IT professional (rather than just the jobber) would be one who at least reviews whether or not the ITIL standard makes sense and gauge its value in the marketplace. Then, I cannot imagine why IT managers wouldn't be hot to hire ITIL-certified workers over the uncertified.

[Soutpeel]

Another tidbit of info: in manufacturing, the ISO process management scheme has become quite popular. Inherited directly from this standard we see the ITIL process management & certification for technology work. An IT professional (rather than just the jobber) would be one who at least reviews whether or not the ITIL standard makes sense and gauge its value in the marketplace. Then, I cannot imagine why IT managers wouldn't be hot to hire ITIL-certified workers over the uncertified.

So what is your point....appears to me you just have sour grapes cos you cant get a job in Thailand and it seems we are going way off topic and this is digressing into a not Thai related discussion...

Edited August 22, 2009 by Soutpeel

[beano2274]

Another tidbit of info: in manufacturing, the ISO process management scheme has become quite popular. Inherited directly from this standard we see the ITIL process management & certification for technology work. An IT professional (rather than just the jobber) would be one who at least reviews whether or not the ITIL standard makes sense and gauge its value in the marketplace. Then, I cannot imagine why IT managers wouldn't be hot to hire ITIL-certified workers over the uncertified.

Logical answer = MONEY

You are too expensive and the costs of getting your Visa and WP sorted, plus all the tax stuff for every employee (Requirement for your Visa) is more than the minimum salary in Bangkok.

Just base yourself here and work in the Middle East or other areas, there are always jobs

try www.bayt.com

[cgit6]

Another tidbit of info: in manufacturing, the ISO process management scheme has become quite popular. Inherited directly from this standard we see the ITIL process management & certification for technology work. An IT professional (rather than just the jobber) would be one who at least reviews whether or not the ITIL standard makes sense and gauge its value in the marketplace. Then, I cannot imagine why IT managers wouldn't be hot to hire ITIL-certified workers over the uncertified.

Logical answer = MONEY

You are too expensive and the costs of getting your Visa and WP sorted, plus all the tax stuff for every employee (Requirement for your Visa) is more than the minimum salary in Bangkok.

Just base yourself here and work in the Middle East or other areas, there are always jobs

try www.bayt.com

Thanks

[cgit6]

Another tidbit of info: in manufacturing, the ISO process management scheme has become quite popular. Inherited directly from this standard we see the ITIL process management & certification for technology work. An IT professional (rather than just the jobber) would be one who at least reviews whether or not the ITIL standard makes sense and gauge its value in the marketplace. Then, I cannot imagine why IT managers wouldn't be hot to hire ITIL-certified workers over the uncertified.

So what is your point....appears to me you just have sour grapes cos you cant get a job in Thailand and it seems we are going way off topic and this is digressing into a not Thai related discussion...

nice jab! you asked a question and i answered it you moron

[dondraper]

I have to agree with all the posters. I get regular emails from Thai employment agencies and most jobs specify:

* Thai nationals only

* Sex specified - male or female

* Age specified - usually 23 to 30yo

* Nearly all jobs ask for a uni degree.

The few jobs I have applied for (where the above is open / not specified) I have been offered Thai wages. I have pointed out I am farang (from Australia), even included a picture of me in the application.

It turns out a few Thai companies (in the hospitality industry) want a farang face but want to pay Thai wages. The last job I knocked back was paying 35,000 baht a month - at a resort, where rooms start at 6,000 baht a night!

Peter

Welcome to the free market where one's value is determined by their output.

[livinthailandos]

as a employer and a farang I can go with most points on the topics. As far as IT goes and I am not making this up, my thai wife cousin he got lucky enough to get to study abroad in english where he got a Masters degree and on in computer science and various other computer language his salary every month is about 4,000 dollars but he is also a university teacher in thailand. He told me that many farang do come to thailand but they expect a lot of money that most companies won't pay, his words not mine. Mind you his monthly money comes from 2 jobs though 2 days a week at the university and 6 days working I know that equals 8 but he works after he's done with the university that day.

Many hotels I'm aware of do have foreigners working there but usually if there a GM the requirements are a lot. I'll give you some basic ideas and idea on salary mind you this has been from what I know and contacts with some hotels.

A. Should have more than 10 Years experience in the Hotel Industry

B. 5 Years or more as a General Manager

C. Have Master's Degree

D. Able to work long hours

E. Mostly Taking Care of Guests

F. Age is usually 35 years or older

G. Stable Employment History

With hiring a GM you wind up also have to do a 1 year contract, Work Permit, Salary usually starts 100,000 baht or more depending on Hotel Rating and size of hotel. Mind you this can be less though. Plus you also need to realize that companies have to pay taxes for hiring a foreigner. Please also realize that realistically wages in thailand are not high compared to most western countries. Most thai's I know would love to have a job that pays 40,000 thats considered a high salary for lots of thai's that I know. Most though won't reach that due to

lack of skills

Lack of leadership

English skills that aren't high enough

lack of experience

just a few examples to name a few anyway. Most of the high professional thais aren't in the tourism industry if they are there in high level positions. Sorry one more thing I forgot to note as someone who has gotten resumes for foreigners you need to realize unless you've got some skill that no one else has to hire you will cost me more than hiring a Thai. Plus I'll have to pay tax for hiring you, and get you a work permit.

[PattayaParent]

<br />

The few jobs I have applied for (where the above is open / not specified) I have been offered Thai wages. I have pointed out I am farang (from Australia), even included a picture of me in the application.<br /><br />It turns out a few Thai companies (in the hospitality industry) want a farang face but want to pay Thai wages. The last job I knocked back was paying 35,000 baht a month - at a resort, where rooms start at 6,000 baht a night!

<br /><br /><br />Really... being offered Thai wages..... in Thailand...OMG.. <img src="style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> ....a another farang scam...inform your embassy immedately.<br /><br />I always took other TV posters comments about Western Arrogance in Thailand in other threads with a pinch of salt...but after reading some of these post, beginning to agree with them....How dare a Thai company offer a Farang a Thai salary, how dare they ask for Thai nationals only....<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Well if they want to charge double entrance fees to places because they see a Farang face then they should be expected to pay double salary to get a Farang face to work for them.

[MrHammer]

Not only will I only hire Thai nationals, you can bet that if equally qualified, I'm only going to hire the attractive ones. My hiring comments notebook would be in the middle of a multimillion $ lawsuit if my company was stateside.

One thing I love about this place. When you say PC, everyone thinks personal computer.

When you hire Thai you also avoid those pesky farangs who just might have an opinion other than kap/kha or other monosyllable sounds used to show their allegiance to whomever is the oldest fart in the workplace.

I do agree with you on the hiring attractive just-out-of-college ladies to scour around the office (If I had an office). I certainly admire Thais in this respect. You seem to get that everything just gets a little better with cute girls around Sadly in my country, we have to hire the least attractive women in the most manly suits or risk a lawsuit for discrimination.

[MrHammer]

On a more serious note, there's no point in getting a Thai job for career purposes when they pay so little. I can easily make more than a university educated Thai with years of experience, working no more than 3-4 hours a day freelancing online. When I'm getting back in the career rat race, I'll try to get a job in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan even Europe and then convince the boss that frequent trips to Thailand are an absolute neccesity.

[dondraper]

Why do u guys think u deserve more than a Thai to do the same job?

[cgit6]

Why do u guys think u deserve more than a Thai to do the same job?

Simple: expertise often yields overall cost savings. Greater expertise can result in drastically lower total costs of ownership (TCO) of tech and often gives a competitive advantage- especially in the fast-moving tech industry.

In any industry, you will find varying levels of competency and commitment to work. In my experience, asian cultures and education systems are not individualistic ...and with few exceptions produce low-quality software engineers (individuality drives creativity drives innovation). As for IT specialists, it is hard to find cutting edge technologists outside of the US, Europe and Australia.

Opining about Thailand (warning just one asshol_e's opinion): it is remarkable the total lack of sophistication here (in part due to the socialization & indoctrination)...in fact, few majors hardly qualify as mature adults. So, another direct answer to you're question: because I'd think a mature adult would be desireable, unless source perspective is childish as well. This is a national epidemic that should be a cause for great concern... but, the indoctrination is a solid mountain few overcome.

(Of course many westerners here fall under that immature heading as well, but the few adults I have met here are invariably western- it is the one key benefit to living in Thailand: the chance to meet very cool people from all over the globe on almost a daily basis)

[Carmine6]

Why do u guys think u deserve more than a Thai to do the same job?

Simple: expertise often yields overall cost savings. Greater expertise can result in drastically lower total costs of ownership (TCO) of tech and often gives a competitive advantage- especially in the fast-moving tech industry.

In any industry, you will find varying levels of competency and commitment to work. In my experience, asian cultures and education systems are not individualistic ...and with few exceptions produce low-quality software engineers (individuality drives creativity drives innovation). As for IT specialists, it is hard to find cutting edge technologists outside of the US, Europe and Australia.

Opining about Thailand (warning just one asshol_e's opinion): it is remarkable the total lack of sophistication here (in part due to the socialization & indoctrination)...in fact, few majors hardly qualify as mature adults. So, another direct answer to you're question: because I'd think a mature adult would be desireable, unless source perspective is childish as well. This is a national epidemic that should be a cause for great concern... but, the indoctrination is a solid mountain few overcome.

(Of course many westerners here fall under that immature heading as well, but the few adults I have met here are invariably western- it is the one key benefit to living in Thailand: the chance to meet very cool people from all over the globe on almost a daily basis)

Implicit or explicit in your postings is that you are better than the available Thai IT talent. And that may very well be the case for certain situations. The problem is unless you can translate that into to being worth more to the emloyer than the additional costs and bureacratic hoops, it doesn't matter. Do companies in Thailand need the latest and greatest or is it just fine keeping what they already have? What does the latest and greatst get them that would outweigh the upgrade and training costs? Do you have a track record of actually saving companies money or just the potential to?

You say sophistication in Thailand is low and then expect that being sophisticated should somehow benefit the employer. How? Do they save money, get higher sales, or just have a higher cost employee?

Unless you can find the situation where your skills or experience will benefit, there's no reason to expect anyone to prefer you.

[endure]

Turn the situation round 180 degrees. Imagine that you have a Thai applying for a job in the USA who apparently (you've not given us any details of your qualifications) is as qualified as you are. Why would any US employer take the time to interview, obtain a green card for, pay for relocation for a Thai national when they could employ someonje who lives round the corner? The fact that you're a farang is not a USP.

[Valjean]

It comes down to work permit issues.

To hire you, a farang, a Thai company will need 2million capitalisation and 4 thai workers. 2 farangs = 4mil and 8 thais and on and on. So some companies either cannot afford it or have reached their quota.

Then there is the time and cost of getting the WP, they'll need to fly you out to obtain a B visa then apply for the WP.

Actually its not that different from elsewhere in the world. Look at the USA, the company will have to obtain a greenmcard/wp for the foreigner. And to get one they will have to explain to the govt why they cant hire a local and need to hire you instead.

That and the question...what makes you sooo special??.....

The 4 Thai's aren't actually needed for a WP. They are needed though when it comes to extending the visa based on employment. Having said that things may have changed since I got my last WP.

I'm not sure about this but as I haven't followed the exact details in the process that my bookkeeping firm uses to get my and one expat working for me visas/WP so maybe you're right. In any event the 2 million per WP is accurate and be it Visa or WP my payroll tax report needs to have a 4:1 ratio. I'm right on the edge and believe me come the end of the month if I don't have someone I better hire them and the authorities have come around and see if people are really working.

All of my customers are outside of Thailand and I hire a number of freelancers in the US, at US wages, for skills I can't get here. And I hire some Philipines freelancers at their local wages for skills they have. If the WP/visa wasn't an issue perhaps I'd bring in one more expat but to be honest I woudn't think to pay US wages. That's my business model - lower costs.

Also keep in mind that you are still competing against the US and Europe in many IT jobs. I have a specialized web developer doing projects in the US at $100 per hour (in his day job he's a VP at mid-sized digital agency). I have experinced copywriters and writers at $50-$75 per hour. I have fresh Thai IT grads at $3.50 per hour. If I'm going to pay top dollar then in this type industry I can look anywhere and find the best. Overall I try to blend my costs. Especially in IT this is very fluid - I don't have any agenda Thai versus anyone else. I'm just a business trying to get the best product or service out there and make as much as I can in the process. You need to see yourself as part of this global job market.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Remember you are in Thailand, and first and foremost they will look after their own.

As others have stated, salary, cultural differences, work permit paperwork (which by the way is a hel_l of a lot), etc etc. are the main sticking points.

Just doing the paperwork takes a lot of manpower hours, so easier to get a Thai national for the job. Also a Thai will do what they are told to do without asking a question, Farangs won't.

It works the same in most other countries, first you try and get your own countrymen a job if that doesn't work then you try the immigrants.

This has been the only sensible response in this thread so far. Well done.

Closest to the truth as well.

[dondraper]

Why do u guys think u deserve more than a Thai to do the same job?

Simple: expertise often yields overall cost savings. Greater expertise can result in drastically lower total costs of ownership (TCO) of tech and often gives a competitive advantage- especially in the fast-moving tech industry.

In any industry, you will find varying levels of competency and commitment to work. In my experience, asian cultures and education systems are not individualistic ...and with few exceptions produce low-quality software engineers (individuality drives creativity drives innovation). As for IT specialists, it is hard to find cutting edge technologists outside of the US, Europe and Australia.

Opining about Thailand (warning just one asshol_e's opinion): it is remarkable the total lack of sophistication here (in part due to the socialization & indoctrination)...in fact, few majors hardly qualify as mature adults. So, another direct answer to you're question: because I'd think a mature adult would be desireable, unless source perspective is childish as well. This is a national epidemic that should be a cause for great concern... but, the indoctrination is a solid mountain few overcome.

(Of course many westerners here fall under that immature heading as well, but the few adults I have met here are invariably western- it is the one key benefit to living in Thailand: the chance to meet very cool people from all over the globe on almost a daily basis)

How about ability to speak the local language? Is that a factor?

[Heng]

I would most definitely hire a foreigner over a local IF it was worth it. It's ridiculous to think local businessmen, especially those at the upper tiers wouldn't and in most cases already do the same. The 'I'd show Dhanin Chearavanont how to run CP or Banthoon Lamsam how I'd run K-Bank' comments from the I'm here on 90 day 'runs' crowd are laughable at best.

[petercallen]

Thai jobs are for thai people unless they cannot find a suitable appilicant, best you go back to your home country to find employment.

[Moonrakers]

@ the OP:

Your arrogance here is remarkable.

You have received much advice on this matter yet you choose to disregard it because you, somehow, are superior. To you it seems inconceivable that Thailand might just have somebody who is just as qualified as yourself and that's not even taking into account the language issue.

Read the advice given, take it on board, re-think your plan of attack and be willing to compromise. otherwise you will be Owaiting for a long time before you get even an interview.

[cgit6]

Why do u guys think u deserve more than a Thai to do the same job?

Simple: expertise often yields overall cost savings. Greater expertise can result in drastically lower total costs of ownership (TCO) of tech and often gives a competitive advantage- especially in the fast-moving tech industry.

In any industry, you will find varying levels of competency and commitment to work. In my experience, asian cultures and education systems are not individualistic ...and with few exceptions produce low-quality software engineers (individuality drives creativity drives innovation). As for IT specialists, it is hard to find cutting edge technologists outside of the US, Europe and Australia.

Opining about Thailand (warning just one asshol_e's opinion): it is remarkable the total lack of sophistication here (in part due to the socialization & indoctrination)...in fact, few majors hardly qualify as mature adults. So, another direct answer to you're question: because I'd think a mature adult would be desireable, unless source perspective is childish as well. This is a national epidemic that should be a cause for great concern... but, the indoctrination is a solid mountain few overcome.

(Of course many westerners here fall under that immature heading as well, but the few adults I have met here are invariably western- it is the one key benefit to living in Thailand: the chance to meet very cool people from all over the globe on almost a daily basis)

Implicit or explicit in your postings is that you are better than the available Thai IT talent. And that may very well be the case for certain situations. The problem is unless you can translate that into to being worth more to the emloyer than the additional costs and bureacratic hoops, it doesn't matter. Do companies in Thailand need the latest and greatest or is it just fine keeping what they already have? What does the latest and greatst get them that would outweigh the upgrade and training costs? Do you have a track record of actually saving companies money or just the potential to?

You say sophistication in Thailand is low and then expect that being sophisticated should somehow benefit the employer. How? Do they save money, get higher sales, or just have a higher cost employee?

Unless you can find the situation where your skills or experience will benefit, there's no reason to expect anyone to prefer you.

Yop, we IT folk are acutely aware of these perception (oft misperception) issues:

1) In my experience so far, "Thai IT talent" is an oxymoron.. (unless they are western educated)

2) Many a time the latest and greatest will save a company money (sometimes that is the point of a new release), though sometimes not, but that prompts this: a) How many companies do you know actually conduct proper budget and technical analysis (+ think long term enough for TCO), and The real point is that "IT talent" implies a level of critical thinking not widely found.

3) I think there is a niche for actual IT talent, but perhaps it's typically going to be found in the large enterprise arena- maybe your MNCs or with other farang-managed shops who realize hiring someone with the mentality a 12yo is an effort in futility.

[cgit6]

@ the OP:

Your arrogance here is remarkable.

Thanks- I've earned it.

[Moonrakers]

I rest my case.

[p_brownstone]

3) I think there is a niche for actual IT talent, but perhaps it's typically going to be found in the large enterprise arena- maybe your MNCs or with other farang-managed shops who realize hiring someone with the mentality a 12yo is an effort in futility.

The majority of Companies who have the need for top grade IT specialists will indeed be MNC's - and the IT function will almost always be based in the Head Office overseas and the new Systems or whatever developed there and simply transferred to the Thai subsidiary when they are already tested and become the Company-wide standard.

I agree too with other Posters who criticise your arrogance and "Farang is always better" attitude - that will not endear you to potential employers here.

Patrick

Edit for Typo

Edited August 23, 2009 by p_brownstone

[cgit6]

1) In my experience so far, "Thai IT talent" is an oxymoron.. (unless they are western educated)

But then, who else sees that "IT Management" is often an oxymoron?

For instance, in the west you get companies where the bean counters and sales types get promoted to top decision-making spots (unlike japan where the engineers get the respect) where a company's budget and goal setting goes as far as a single quarter

[cgit6]

I agree too with other Posters who criticise your arrogance and "Farang is always better" attitude - that will not endear you to potential employers here.

Patrick

Edit for Typo

Of course that's an assumption based on perception here... it is of course ridiculous to translate that over to the work environment. Are farangs the only arrogant workers with high expectations?

[cgit6]

I rest my case.

Yuo dont see any hypocrisy in your lunacy here?

[soundman]

This inflamatory topic has turned nasty. No point continuing.

Closed.