American Pensioner Arrested For Underage Sex

[The_Moog]

This is a big topic. Not really going anywhere though !

Edited March 11, 2005 by The_Moog

[sriracha john]

Mr. Hall,

For delicious eating, would you choose a fresh aromatic fruit or one ravaged with age?

It is a human thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

go easier on the Jose Cuervo next time.....

making an analogy between fruits and humans?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't be the first.

Sexual desire is an appetite. Different people have different tastes. Within this context, people live in society and must follow the rules of the realm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and the rules of the realm as previously noted are that, for an American, going overseas and soliciting a prostitute under the age of 18 is against the rules... and he will be duly punished for breaking the rules of the realm.

[Boon Mee]

This is a big topic. Not really going anywhere though !

Yeah...like "Rain"...

[toastwars]

This is a big topic. Not really going anywhere though !

Yeah...like "Rain"...

But with less humour, repeats itself on multipul threads and this ones writers take their opinions far to seriously and defend it's existance with a fervour bordering on fanatacism

[pedro01]

Pedro was spot on whith his reply to my post ? I AM Pedro...

Michelle Wie at 14 playing golf & 16 year old professional tennis players are hardly the same as 16 year old girls prostituting themselves to dirty old men to get a new mobile phone.

Pedro - my apolgies for confusing you with IssanAlex however.....

Michelle Wie at 14 playing golf and 16 year old tennis players is exactly the same as a 16 year old girl prostituting herself to "dirty old men" as you put it.

They're all doing what they're good at.

This is a crime without a victim unless the man gets sentenced.

The law should be there to protect innocent and naive juveniles in Thailand and anywhere else in the world.

It doesn't sound like this girl needs a lot of protection.

In the Uk not long before I moved to Thailand there was a case of a 26 year old man who picked up a girl in a nightclub who told him she was 17.

He was married, with kids and had a good job.

It turned out she was 14 and she told her mates, who told their parents, who told the police.

Putting aside the moral issue of his philandery - the man lost his job, his house, and his wife and was put on a sex offenders register - so who was the victim?

Your other point about making allowances for age is a non argument and could never stand in a court of law.

Its may ok for a 18 year man to go with a 15 year old girl is it?

What about a 20 year old man? and a 15 year old girl Still ok?

What about 25 - maybe ok maybe not.

How about 35 years - no thats not ok.

34 then?

33 then?

At what age exactly do you become a dirty old man?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At what age exactly do you become a dirty old man?

I dunno - how old are you ?

[pedro01]

This is a big topic. Not really going anywhere though !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah...like "Rain"...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But with less humour, repeats itself on multipul threads and this ones writers take their opinions far to seriously and defend it's existance with a fervour bordering on fanatacism

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See the little 'x' in the top right-hand corner - give it a click

[JML]

Slim, are you a troll??? I will take a stab at the fact that you have NEVER played a sport in your entire life.

Michelle Wie at 14 playing golf and 16 year old tennis players is exactly the same as a 16 year old girl prostituting herself to "dirty old men" as you put it.

They're all doing what they're good at

You are a troll, aren't you? Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to become a world champ athlete? Do you have any remote understanding? Can you begin to grasp it? I know you do not. Compared to the rest of the population on this planet, I was *extremely* good at two of the sports I chose ... and still, fell short of world class. And the number of hours, sweat and tears it took ... just be as short of world class as I was.

How much effort does it take for a young, impressionable CHILD to spread her legs for some old man for money? How much skill, how much effort does it take to be "good at" it?

The law should be there to protect innocent and naive juveniles in Thailand and anywhere else in the world.

It doesn't sound like this girl needs a lot of protection.

And just how do you think they become this way? Because of people like you who seem to advocate this type of cruelty. Just because 12 year olds are getting boffed in Thailand does not make it right for it to happen. What the heck do you think happens to these girls? That they just go on having normal lives? That there are no repercussions? There are no psycological scars? These women that are molested at such a young age that they are permanently on the road to prostitution. And THEN you on your aloof platform deem to criticize them because now they are tarts. Call them whores, and say that now they are beyond proper laws, because proper laws are for proper women.

Are you, too from a messed up family? Do you have no children? I don't, but I sure as ###### remember how impressionable I was when I was that age. Of course they want their phones, their toys. Didn't you? Can you image what it is like to be them, to be molested at a young age, and then later be told by an adult that it is ok to take the money, "We are just going to play a little game?"

Putting aside the moral issue of his philandery - the man lost his job, his house, and his wife and was put on a sex offenders register - so who was the victim?

What? Repeat that first sentence again ... he was married, having sex with an underage woman ... but put aside those legial issues ...who was the victim? The victims were his wife and kids, not this ass.

Ahh, how I hate insulting people behind a cowardly keyboard, but wow, you need a good look at these ideas you put out for everyone to see.

I am no bible basher, no major philanthropist. I have no problem with prostitution between two adults. I have no problem with the sexual desires of men. I love women, but even more, I think children should have a chance to be just that ... children. Why do people have such desire to pervert them so early on? Some kind of insecurity, some kind of obsession to corrupt others to be as corrupt as they are?

And I don't want to have anyone tell me I don't deserve to be here ...

ผมพูดภาษาได้เก่งแล้วนะ

I deserve to be here just as much as every other foreigner who has a valid visa does. Unfortunately, that means as much right as some of these pedophiles that come here, at least until they break the law.

[toastwars]

Help is available

you do not need to suffer, you can break the cycle

[aoc1234]

In Brazil, a 16 year old girl is considered a woman and you wouldn't have this kind of fuss.

Brazilian law protects minors from sexual violation. Engaging in sexual intercourse with a virgin woman between the ages of 14 and 18 by taking advantage of either her "inexperience or her confidence" is a crime. The punishment for such intercourse is an imprisonment term of two to four years. Similarly, it is a crime to corrupt, or facilitate the corruption of, a person between the ages of 14 and 18 by engaging in sexual acts or persuading such a person to witness such acts. This crime is punishable by one to four years of imprisonment.

(cut & pasted from ageofconsent.com)

the age of consent here in thailand is 16, period. another fishy story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, not period.  Can be 15, 16, or 18 depending on the circumstances.  Read up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AOC in Thailand is 15, but

" Whoever, for sexual gratification of that person or of the third person, commits sexual intercourse or any other act against a person who is over fifteen (15) years but not yet over eighteen (18) years of age, with or without his or her consent, in a place for prostitution, shall be punished with imprisonment of one to three years and a fine of twenty thousand to sixty thousand baht.

Note it says "in a place of prostitution". This confirms what a previous poster said about being required to take 15-17 y/o prostitutes somewhere else. There is too much on the site to quote here. Go read.

Now due to US Federal statues, it is illegal for any of the residents of any of these 27 states to have sex with a 16 year old in Thailand. There are also (federal) laws that apply when someone crosses state lines for sex.

So how can the US federal court prosecute you just because of which state you are resident of? And even this is murky, some people could claim they had moved states or were no longer a US resident therefore not resident of any state etc... Seems quite absurd to arbitrarily say you're a federal criminal just because of which state you are legally resident of. This disparity is even more absurd than most Thai issues & doings which people on this site discuss / moan about.

Also this means that if a 18 year old US citizen has sex with a 17 year old in another country while on holiday, then if s/he lives in the 'wrong state' then they can be prosecuted as a paedophile under Federal laws? I might be incorrect but as I understand it there is a different crime class (within the US) for sex with a minor & child molestation, but according to the above discussion they are seen the same thing when done in another country. Also how does consent (from the 'victim’s' parents) enter into this? It is coming across that the US Federal law is draconian in contrast to the US state's laws.

As far as the law is concerned I think people are not being articulate when differentiating between any action that the Thai authorities might take, versus any action the US might take under it's laws.

Under Thai law I believe (but sure) that the only crime he has committed (if any) is paying for a prostitute aged 16-18. Since if she was not being paid for sex it would be legal (?), I doubt this is the same Thai law as those governing paedophilia & doubt the penalty is very harsh - but I might be wrong of course.

In any case (for the record) I have read on Thai embassy websites that for sex with prostitutes:

1. they must be over 18 &

2. prostitution is illegal but ONLY for the person receiving the money, the client is not breaking Thai law (unless under 18)

It should also be noted the grey area where you give a bar girl some cash the next morning after never bringing up the issue of money - Thais generally don't consider this to be prostitution in the legal sense.

If any one is sure of the exact laws and likely penalties please speak up - I have only written much of the above based on what has been said above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The U.S. sex-tourist prevention act (or whatever they called it) makes it illegal for ANY U.S. citizen from ANY state, regardless of that state's age of consent, to engage in sex in a foreign country with someone under 18, whether paid for or not, whether he traveled to the country for sex or not. This applies EVEN when both parties are over the age of consent both in the country where the act takes place and in the state where the U.S. citizen is resident (the federal government claims that the state has no jurisdiction over its residents outside its borders, but that the federal govt. has jurisdiction in foreign countries for this purpose -- but not for when CIA operatives are torturing suspected terrorists). And yes, the U.S. citizen is officially from then on, for the rest of his life, even after serving the 30 years or whatever, officially a pedophile, required to register with the local police everywhere they move, with their name, address and picture in the national sex offenders registry, and therefore subject to local lynch mobs, fire bombings or whatever the local pharisees decide is just. This would apply to an 18 year old U.S. high school senior exchange student getting it on with a French 17 year old girl he meets in Paris, although of course selective prosecution would take over and justice would be blind to the offense. On the other hand, if a 16 year old girl comes to the U.S. to visit their relative working in, say, Las Vegas, then it would all be perfectly legal for a man of any age to bonk the 16 year old (as long as no money changes hands and as long as the man is a Nevada resident at the time of the bonking).

It's ridiculous! And the U.S. is busy going round the world pressuring other countries to raise their age of consent and pass similar sex-tourist laws.

[PvtDick]

Bloody spoil sports!

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

See the little 'x' in the top right-hand corner - give it a click

Toastie has posted 6 nondescript, forgettable times on this subject - that only started late last night, and he doesn't even like this topic.

With 30 posts and 2.9 of all posts today, he continues to hold the dubious accolade of 'Today's Top Poster'. (As he does every day).

[jomama]

.

They were locked together in the throes of beastly passion.

Her ripe apricot buttocks juxtaposed with his withered loins.

His thin mottled lips brushed her Devil's Pillows, oh how he was tempted by the Forbidden Fruit, but for him, it was the elixir of life, his passport to eternal youth.

Her nubbin came into view....

..... he coughed , clenched his wrinkled buttocks and simultaneously broke wind and dribbled weakly from his warty member.

"I love you long time Mr Louis"

"Call me 'Grandpa' "

"Grandpa - make me squeal like a piggy"

His false teeth fell on her firm pointy knockers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...upon reaching his much-sought goal, he withdrew his soon-flaccid love-sword, rolled onto his back, wiped the drool from the side of his fruit-ripe lips, clasped his hands across his hairy, porcine belly, and said ....

[Richard Hall]

Mr. Hall,

For delicious eating, would you choose a fresh aromatic fruit or one ravaged with age?

As long as the "fruit" is legal age and there is consent between two legal age adults, isn't this a free choice?

I am talking now about legal age younger people, and the reality is that a huge percentage of older adults are attracted to them very much.

Irrespective of nationality.

Thaiquila,

thanks for the feedback and explanations although I'm still pondering about the WHY in that "...huge percentage of older adults are attracted to very young people". A psychological thing, a hormonal issue, is it about the feel of power or just narcism and denying the fact that one has turned into an unattractive mummy and needing that very specific kick to get the worn out equipment going?

Since the thread started to get off track afterwards and even war arose among two sides how about a compromise for everyone:

Ain't Mom always tell us that eating unripe fruits is gonna give us a stomache ache and/or the running? Guess a very wise advise. Stick to the "ripe fruits" as indicated and everything is going to be fine. If one cannot for whatever reason well, it's like farting against the wind. Bear the consequences

Now it appears like exactly this is going to happen with our 61 year old "friend" what this fine thread is all about and frankly said why give a &lt;deleted&gt; about him particularly since he even alraeady had a criminal history in terms of sexual assaults. Afterall, let's all benefit from this by learning our lesson of not eating unripe fruits or farting against the wind. Shoot I lost it afterall, what was that thread all about

My personal feeling is that hanging out with girls below twenty for whatever reason can be extremely annoying particularly if they start talking. Wonder what those heroes do with them after the big bang. Chat about which guy of F4 is actually cuter, head for the disco, go roller skating or buy them a new outfit for their Barbie doll?

If is just about the bang why not just get a blow up doll with freckles, a ponytail and dressed in a school uniform? At the long run it's gonna be cheaper, less annoying, more appropriate and the best thing it'll be legal and ain't gonna get ya into the cage.

And so the 61 year old fart got his little kinky girly rubber doll out, excercised his lungs greatly by giving it a blow, satisfied his senses and lived happily ever after as good ol' well respected uncle Tom with his little secret in the drawer. Ain't happy ends just great?

[toastwars]

[Richard Hall]

Hope that pacifier (translates "dummy" for the Brits among us) is above the legal age!

[Merlin]

[...snip]

It should also be noted the grey area where you give a bar girl some cash the next morning after never bringing up the issue of money - Thais generally don't consider this to be prostitution in the legal sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...so never pay them for sex - just pay them to leave in the morning!

[shamelessly ripped off from someone else]

[skippy_nl]

Just a question for the group.

If you (a man age unknown not relevant ) have consensual sex with a Thai girl between the age of 16 and 18, and you give her a present ( say a half bath gold chain ) as a token of your appreciation can you them be charged with paying for it.

Even if the young lady takes the gold back to the shop for cash.

[mr_lob]

[...snip]

It should also be noted the grey area where you give a bar girl some cash the next morning after never bringing up the issue of money - Thais generally don't consider this to be prostitution in the legal sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...so never pay them for sex - just pay them to leave in the morning!

[shamelessly ripped off from someone else]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeh - thats what Charlie Sheen says isn't it?

[peterdigger]

This entire story is crap. Check the facts. The legal age for consentual hetero sex in Thailand is 15, not bloody 16 ! There are a billion whores in the Kingdom. Read between the lines. Who did he upset ? Or was it just that he took pretty pictures and did not pay enough ? Who knows ? Who cares ?

[PvtDick]

His relationship with her was commercial, which makes the age of consent 18. He was also taking naughty photos, which is against the law.

[arthsch]

i stay long time here already. in thailand is no need for sex with children - a lot of small bodies are here. but 2 examples: i know a girl, she is 18 years old and her mother 31. if the mother got the baby in an age of 13 years, nobody was interested. --- in a bangkok go-go bar onetimes jumped a drunky girl, wearing very few clothes, on my knees and was very happy to meet me. it was a neighbour's daughter. she was this time about 13 years old, with an id-card of a relative. her body was as like as marlyn monroe in her best age. she prefered sex with japan-me, how she told me. now she is 20 years, already married with a farang since 3 years. i am against child-sex, of course, but this both girls were really still children? - and what's with the rich old chinese men, if they employ schoolgirls in the holydays? and what's with "the green crop" in payao?

[Ijustwannateach]

Just wanted to clarify a bit on the issue of American law. It's my understanding that the (thin) excuse America's government has to extend its jurisdiction over its citizens' behavior on foreign soil is an extension of its constitutional control over "interstate commerce," in other words between the states and between the U.S. and other foreign nations.

That means that they can prosecute citizens going abroad for the purpose of committing various crimes- that would explain the legal device used to arrest the guy mentioned before in this thread, who hadn't even left the states.

So, if someone happened to break what would be a U.S. law while living abroad in general, theoretically there would be no jurisdiction. In other words, if I'm a tourist who comes over here and spends every night out picking up 16 yo's, then as long as I'm not from one of the states listed as having a 16yo age of consent, I could theoretically be charged on my return home. Actually, this would be true even if I lived in a state where the age of consent was 18 and travelled over the state line FOR THE PURPOSE of having sex with a 16 or 17 year old. Naturally, it's kind of hard to prove in court (they must have had that pervy guy under surveillance for some time).

Being a long term resident in Thailand, however, for the purpose of living and especially working, we U.S. citizens are technically no longer subject to that form of jurisdiction. While we work legally here in Thailand, the laws of the land are Thai. I'm sure, however, the recent power-hungry mob in Washington would like the *perception* to be that Americans are always subject to American law everywhere in the world, but legally (even by American law) this is not the case.

"Steven"

[arthsch]

[...snip]

It should also be noted the grey area where you give a bar girl some cash the next morning after never bringing up the issue of money - Thais generally don't consider this to be prostitution in the legal sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...so never pay them for sex - just pay them to leave in the morning!

[shamelessly ripped off from someone else]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeh - thats what Charlie Sheen says isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[arthsch]

we are farang. whatever we are doing, we have to pay! thats thai-law!

[creamontop]

I did not want to go through most of this crap.

It sound like lots in here are trying to blame a country system. But in fact this is all useless speaches. None in here will change it anyway.

Never forget one thing :

Being a guest in another country (like Thailand) does imply you addapt to this country legal system.

If not, get lost, take a plane and go home. How crazy some laws may sound to you and your own personnal points of view.

So whatever the background of both persons here is, Old fart or young stupid chick, both broke a Thai law.

Being the old fart, an adult for quiet some time, he should have though twice before putting his tail out of his pants. He merrits whatever he gets now.

Being the youngster, someone in the primary stage of sexual behaviour (or even not, but only experimenting with sex), should have considered getting it from someone of its own age. It would not have hurt that much at the end concerning law.

Two years 16 <-> 18 make a big difference towards law, not towards sex. so all think twice and make sure you wont make the same stupid mistake with underaged in Thailand. ASK FOR THE ID CARD !!

[shotover]

I wish the mods would step in and move any posts addressing the endless debate about the appropriateness of prostitution and age of consent laws to another thread, and focus this thread on what actually happened, and which laws (regardless of their approriateness) apply.

The 11 March ThaiRath newspaper had a lengthy article on the arrest, but I cannot read Thai well enough to provide a decent translation. Any volunteers?

According to the Bangkok Post:

"A 61-year old American male was yesterday arrested for having sex with a 16-year-old schoolgirl in a Bangkok hotel.

Police raided the suspect's hotel room after receiving a tip from an Education Ministry official, PolCol Surat Udomrat, head of the child welfare division, said.

An education official observed the man and girl, who was wearing her school uniform, enter one of the capital's small hotels which cater to lovers seeking to rent a bedroom for just a few hours.

Police said the girl told them the suspect paid her 5,000 baht to have sexual intercourse and pose for nud_e photos. AP"

According to the Nation:

"A naked 15-year old girl was saved yesterday when police burst into a room at a love motel and nabbed a 61-year-old Amercian man who was allegedly about to rape her.

Acting on a phone call reporting the man entering the short-time hotel with a girl in a school uniform, Pol Colonel Surat Udomrat, head of the Child Welfare Division, led the raid on his room at the Penthouse Hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 11.

The man, identified as Louis Joseph Chiavacci, was also in the nud_e.

The girl told police that she knew Chiavacci through an older friend and that he had offered her Bt 2,000 to pose for photos in her uniform. After the shoot, Chiavacci asked her to undress, promising her Bt 5,000 if she posed nud_e.

Once she had complied she started to fear that he was going to rape her.

More than 400 nud_e pictures of the student and other young girls were found in four digital-camera memory cards belonging to Chiavacci, Surat said.

The man was charged with molesting a girl under 18 and taking a minor away from her parents."

[britmaveric]

More than 400 nud_e pictures of the student and other young girls were found in four digital-camera memory cards belonging to Chiavacci, Surat said.

Geezer definitely has a problem - prob out to sell the photos. Too many for personal use.

[wolf5370]

Someone said...

So what about that low life P.O.S German c*nt last year that infected up to 200 young teenage girls with HIV (and paid them B3000-B5000 for the privilege)? The Thai 'authorities' could only arrest him for overstaying his tourist visa and deport him.....

If I remember right it was his ex-wife that stated this. No 'girl' came forward and a HIV test was never performed. Therefore, they kicked him out for the crime he had committed (perhaps just in case, or simply because he was an overstay - reason is mute, he is gone).

Like Tornado, I'm a bit mixed emotionally about this. From what I know of Thai law and the "facts" given in the opriginal post (ussuming they are Facts!) he was guilty of using a prostitute's services. She was under 18, but not in a brothel, so the under 18 law does not apply. She is 15 or 16 - either is legal. Prostitution is not.

That all aside, I can understand the the Thai authorities wanting to publicise this and make him known (after all he is a criminal and therefore fair game - even if not a child molester). They do two things by doing this: 1 - they show the world that they are acting tough and don't want this sort of tourist, and 2 - they, hopefully, deter others coming to do the same. Thereby, doing what Government prime directive is and trying to protect their citizens.

My wife was 20 when I married her. She is 7 years my junior. In the UK, most people thought she was 16 (they only stopped at that value perhaps because 16 is the minimum limit to marry as well as of consent). I had know her for over 2 years and knew members of her family as friends and business partners for many years more; so I did not have the unblinkered eyes to see 'how she looked' because I knew too well 'what she was' - age wise.

Why am I saying this? Well, most Thais, both sexes, look much younger than they are to Western eyes. To me a 16 y/o Thai girl would look anywhere from say 10 to 15 - usually the towards the lower end of that scale too. Morally, I would run a mile from such a relationship. I have serious concerns for any man that is attracted, sexually, to someone that looks 10. Even if they are, that they can not control these urges enough to resist knowing tghe morales of society (regardless of whether someone, or everyone, else breaks them).

If you need/want to pay for sex, then fine by me. Go to a bar or whatever and find a nice girl. In LOS, at 25 they look like 16 Western girls anyway, so you get your "newly ripe mango" to miss-quote an earlier post. Why eat before its ripe?

I think the arguement as to why these girls do this, or to how they spend the proffits is at best superfluous and just muddies the water.

So, in short, to me, he is legally guilty of the misdemenor of paying for sex, but not of child molesting . However, morally he is slime and should be sent home with a black mark in his passport.

[may be the 61 y/o is dyslexic and thought she was 61 too?]

Cheers.

[IsaanAlex]

After the shoot, Chiavacci asked her to undress, promising her Bt 5,000 if she posed nud_e.

Once she had complied she started to fear that he was going to rape her.

So it appears that he didn't even screw her; what's the problem here then...

IA

PS. If it went from 2,000 to 5,000 baht just to go from schoolgirl pics to nube pics I can only wonder how much he'd have paid her to bone her. I'm thinking 7500 baht or so.

good wage

[Anon999]

It seems to me that this forum is populated by a large number of perverts who do not have of have had 16 year old daughters. Unless of course you are all happy for YOUR 16 year old daughter to have sex, paid or otherwise, with a 61 year old man with a record of sexual assault and weapons offences. From some of the posts it would appear that he would be welcome as a son-in-law.

Maybe someone can explain their own morals on this as it appears that you were dragged up with an amoral attitude.

Regardless of the law the real question is how many of you who are being blase about this will be looking for sex with sixteen year olds in school uniform when you are 61? Let's hope you all get locked up and have the key thrown away before then.

Furthermore you cannot assume she's a trollope bearing in mind he had already tried it on with her twice before he was arrested.

Just for the record I had a Thai wife for 16 years and have Thai relatives and friends in England and Thailand.