Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[Plus]

Maybe some othe facts speak to yourself and you can actually hear them, but it doesn't happen to me.

What's this, some kind of "voices in the head" attempt at sarcasm?

I don't dispute the 2001 background.I was talking - as I thought would have been obvious - about the 2007 elections which are dealt with in the Anfrel report.

It wasn't obvious at all, the whole reason that Anfrel was mentioned was because people were talking about 2001 elections results, and 2001 report was mentioned in the post with the link specifically. And it was mentioned again in some other post. Why do you assume that I know that you changed the subject to 2007 already? You didn't leave any pointers, either, not a single reference to any of the facts that everyone knows.

I don't know what's going on in your head, I'm not a mind reader.

No one disputes that PPP had the right to form a ruling coalition after 2007 elections. Of course their behaviour was later ruled as fraudulent and they were dissolved, and so in a sense their government was illegitimate from the start, but the court didn't declare any of their actions while in power as null and void. I think the law is designed like that more for convenience sake than for fairness - it would be a mess to apply "illegitimate" label retrospectively, but sitll, a thief is a thief from the moment he steals, he's just given benefit of presumed innocent until the court ruling. Now it's official - they were frauds in 2007 elections, they didn't become frauds just in December 2008.

It's pointless to argue if they could win without engaging in bribery of village heads, they just couldn't stop themselves, could they?

[jayboy]

Link here: pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/honestmistakemonash.doc interesting research from 2002 on corruption and the rise of Thaksin by Chula Univ., Chris Baker

So after all it was his money that brought him to power... not the electorate

Your conclusion does not follow from your posited earlier premise.If you are going to take an interest in these matters, I suggest you absorb more thoroughly all Acharn Pasuk and Chris Baker have to say.Certainly while stern critics of Thaksin they have never argued that he brought his way into power as opposed to having the electorate's support.A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.The problem for all of us with a Western liberal position is to understand why Thaksin maintains a huge reservoir of political support.Making silly and uninformed (I'm not accusing you of dishonesty) statements really doesn't help.

Ok, can you explain me your first sentence, please, seems my english is too poor to get it.(??)

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" as of

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again." (the first line of this couplet is often misquoted as "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," thus reinforcing the aptness of this very admonition, as the misquote betrays a certain want of learning.) (quote wikipedia "an essay on criticism")

Also I wouldn't see myself in a "western liberal position", but I do think to understand why Thaksin maintains to have a certain amount of support, as I stated earlier due to his brainwashing through media + populism + top level corruption. Berlosconi made it back, why Thaksin shouldn't, kind of a thing.

BTW it's nice that you refrain calling my statements dishonest, but silly instead.

This also doesn't change my perspective on the issue.

If you want a discussion on Alexander Pope so be it, but probably off topic.

My point remains valid I think.Why does Thaksin remain the most popular politician in the country? In The Pasuk/Baker series of current history the answer seems clear notwithstanding the man is something of a scoundrel.You can call it brainwashing if you like but that demeans the debate.On this forum there are a variety of views on either side, some informed some just silly.

[Plus]

It doesn't matter if he is the most popular politician. Popularity doesn't beat the law.

[mca]

Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Or a tank.

[noithip]

If you want a discussion on Alexander Pope so be it, but probably off topic.

My point remains valid I think.Why does Thaksin remain the most popular politician in the country? In The Pasuk/Baker series of current history the answer seems clear notwithstanding the man is something of a scoundrel.You can call it brainwashing if you like but that demeans the debate.On this forum there are a variety of views on either side, some informed some just silly.

First of all you started beeing a smart-ass by quoting Pope wrong! So since you are obviously a native speaker could you explain me the meaning of "scoundrel"? Is it a good thing? If yes, then bring him back! If not, let the scoundrel stay away from this country, it's so easy...

I know I'm below your league and you are well informed and all... but thankfully I'm able to keep demeaning the debate, and I will!

Ever had a political discussion with a local farmer? Should try!

Edited September 1, 2009 by noithip

[Scott]

Some time back there were some posts about the distribution of wealth in Thailand. It is really unfair to blame any of this on Thaksin. He did more for the poor than anyone. Under his employment, he had the wealthiest maid and driver in all of Thailand.

[animatic]

Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Or a tank.

Or truth.

[animatic]

Some time back there were some posts about the distribution of wealth in Thailand. It is really unfair to blame any of this on Thaksin. He did more for the poor than anyone. Under his employment, he had the wealthiest maid and driver in all of Thailand.

Irony, sarcasm and dry wit together from a mod... Land o Goshen!

Well it is right he should pay his maid a lot considering all the dirt to sweep under the rugs.

And the chauffeur would be over worked too, since Thaksin was always driving us all to drink.

Edited September 1, 2009 by animatic

[mauGR1]

Some time back there were some posts about the distribution of wealth in Thailand. It is really unfair to blame any of this on Thaksin. He did more for the poor than anyone. Under his employment, he had the wealthiest maid and driver in all of Thailand.

Irony, sarcasm and dry wit together from a mod... Land o Goshen!

Well it is right he should pay his maid a lot considering all the dirt to sweep under the rugs.

And the chauffeur would be over worked too, since Thaksin was always driving us all to drink.

[peoria]

Any news on the topic Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed? All I seem to be reading about are 2001 elections peppered with descriptions of members like:

dishonesty and ignorance

Making silly and uninformed

some just silly.

[Plus]

Fine, another theory about postponement - Three Stooges pissed of everyone one else in the red camp, including PTP MPs and members of Thaksin family. The petition was useless, numbers of people attending rallies have dropped (despite professed 7 million signatures), and there are allegations of them syphoning off Thaksin's money, too.

So, this time when they announced the rally no one else was told about beforehand, they met with lots of internal resistance.

[jayboy]

It doesn't matter if he is the most popular politician. Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Agreed but equally it's important to ensure the law and the judicial process is even handed and not in any sense politically "directed".

[jayboy]

If you want a discussion on Alexander Pope so be it, but probably off topic.

My point remains valid I think.Why does Thaksin remain the most popular politician in the country? In The Pasuk/Baker series of current history the answer seems clear notwithstanding the man is something of a scoundrel.You can call it brainwashing if you like but that demeans the debate.On this forum there are a variety of views on either side, some informed some just silly.

First of all you started beeing a smart-ass by quoting Pope wrong! So since you are obviously a native speaker could you explain me the meaning of "scoundrel"? Is it a good thing? If yes, then bring him back! If not, let the scoundrel stay away from this country, it's so easy...

I know I'm below your league and you are well informed and all... but thankfully I'm able to keep demeaning the debate, and I will!

Ever had a political discussion with a local farmer? Should try!

If you can correct me on misquoting Pope, you should know what a scoundrel is.Thaksin was undoubtedly such a person.My point was that it might illuminating to try to understand why he has so much support.Most of us can easily agree he isn't an admirable man.

[jayboy]

Any news on the topic Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed? All I seem to be reading about are 2001 elections peppered with descriptions of members like:

dishonesty and ignorance

Making silly and uninformed

some just silly.

I know of only one member who specialises in out of context quotes like this.Hmmm.... I wonder!

[animatic]

Because Thaksin threw a few social sops to the Issan people using other peoples money,

and made BIG press about doing it, leaving the people up north thinking finally someone did something.

And having co-opted the channels of information up there also, anythings done by others for the Issanese,

are not adequately communicated to them. Ignorance is bliss some say, which should not be confused with stupidity,

just not knowing of options or mitigating facts doesn't make one stupid, just poorly informed.

So now that there is seen a general need to address more problems up north and east,

that fact this IS being done in any way, is hidden as much as possible from the recipients.

Thaksin has much support because:

a ) he had a super good economy to work with and milked that to manipulate the Issanese.

He had little to do with a booming world economy at that time, nor pulling Thailand's bacon

from the fire of the Asian Tiger melt down, Dems and Chuan did, but Thaksin took full credit for that recovery..

b ) He privatised state industries, often sold to cronies, and used that ready cash to buy Issan's love.

c ) He kept the Issanese in the dark as much as possible about anything BUT his 'great deeds for them"

Dirt was never allowed to be heard, and actively silenced. But hagiographies were trumpeted.

d ) He robbed from other poor sections of the country to feed his base.

And, conveniently, calling it 'political punishment for not voting for him'.

e ) Developed schemes that made him and cronies money,

but also gave apparent hope to the poor of good luck. 2-3 digit lottery etc.

Drove the national hospital system into effective bankrupcy, while increasing the

private hospitals profits 10 fold, while telling the Issanese why they got such a great deal from it.

You know, many of his cronies had bought into many private hospitals at that time.

f ) He cynically played up fortune tellers, black magic, witchcraft and age old susperstitions

with a faux Budhist overlay, to identify more closely with back country people.

Turning Alms bowls up, dispelling bad luck, having others seen removing thorns from

graven images of himself, turning Karma notions on their heads, for political profit.

Don't look at what my left hand is doing,

since I am handing you 1,000 baht with my right hand.

(while taking 100,000 bt with the left)

Prestidigitation of a whole regions expectations.

Ignore that man behind the curtain, the great and powerful Oz has spoken,

Edited September 2, 2009 by animatic

[mca]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[noithip]

I have to add that the real "powerhouse" of Thaksin is not so much Isaan, it is Chiang Mai. There is a interview with one of the founders of the "Chiang Mai lovers" in the new edition of "Chiang Mai Citylife". It helps to understand the people behind the reds. They are even comparing themselfs with Mahatma Gandhi ! Interestingly they also say their funding comes from poor peoples donations ! One thing I found interesting apart that they hate gays was this quote:"For instance, with this drive to collect signatures to ask for His Majesty the King's mercy for Thaksin, the group which is submitting the signatures is Truth Today. The only reason they are submitting this petition, is because once it is submitted, it would be disrespectful towards HM for Truth Today to hold rallies or to go on stage and demand Thaksin's return. This is when other red groups can step in and continue the protests. This allows us a loop hole to continue our work."

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

More than disturbing I would say!

[jayboy]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread by from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Anyone who knows the North East would understand this to be nonsense

And the ethnic slur you refer to was very much the kind of rhetoric that was peddled at PAD rallies in Bangkok.It's essentially generated by an urban middle class fear that the long quiescent rural majority will demand fair political representation and an end to the skewed distribution of economic resources.It's a process that ocurred in other countries more than a century ago but it's happening now in Thailand.

And that's the real reason Thaksin is such a hated figure in some circles.

[mca]

I doubt many us would like it to be tarred with the " You're too uneducated to know what's good for you/You'd sell your soul for a couple of hundred baht/Red shirt thugs" brush.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[noithip]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread by from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Anyone who knows the North East would understand this to be nonsense

And the ethnic slur you refer to was very much the kind of rhetoric that was peddled at PAD rallies in Bangkok.It's essentially generated by an urban middle class fear that the long quiescent rural majority will demand fair political representation and an end to the skewed distribution of economic resources.It's a process that ocurred in other countries more than a century ago but it's happening now in Thailand.

And that's the real reason Thaksin is such a hated figure in some circles.

Quote by a Read spokesperson: " Our aims are firstly to fight for true democracy in Thailand, secondly, to show respect and protect people who do good in society, thirdly, to protect the sacred culture of Lanna and lastly, to help serve the poor and the needy."

I think the guys in Isaan will have difficulties adopting Lanna culture...

[mca]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread by from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Anyone who knows the North East would understand this to be nonsense

And the ethnic slur you refer to was very much the kind of rhetoric that was peddled at PAD rallies in Bangkok.It's essentially generated by an urban middle class fear that the long quiescent rural majority will demand fair political representation and an end to the skewed distribution of economic resources.It's a process that ocurred in other countries more than a century ago but it's happening now in Thailand.

And that's the real reason Thaksin is such a hated figure in some circles.

Quote by a Read spokesperson: " Our aims are firstly to fight for true democracy in Thailand, secondly, to show respect and protect people who do good in society, thirdly, to protect the sacred culture of Lanna and lastly, to help serve the poor and the needy."

I think the guys in Isaan will have difficulties adopting Lanna culture...

I think an awful lot of the guys in Isaan are getting bored of being thought of as "anti-government =pro Red"

[noithip]

I think an awful lot of the guys in Isaan are getting bored of being thought of as "anti-government =pro Red"

Finally we agree on something! Specially the people who can't stand Thaksin or don't give a dam_n about the reds.

[animatic]

The smear on farangs as racist against Issan folks didn't work, kids.

Try again.

[jayboy]

The smear on farangs as racist against Issan folks didn't work, kids.

Try again.

What are you talking about? Nobody mentioned farang views on Isaan people or anything else.

[mca]

A lot of the people I talk to were TRT/PPP supporters and wish Thaksin and the red shirts would stop their shenanigans as in their opinion they're (meaning the red shirts) playing right into the governments hands of tarring anti Democratic party folks with the same brush.

These folks still think the government has the agenda of controlling the populace at the behest of the real powers and feel true democracy hasn't a chance here.

How many "red shirt thug"s are there? A few thousand?

That still leaves an awful lot of people mightily pissed off with things like military coups etc.

[mca]

The smear on farangs as racist against Issan folks didn't work, kids.

Try again.

Your dictionary obviously has "condescending" and "racist" mixed up.

Plus your use of the word "kids" doesn't give you an air of intellectual insight into things we couldn't possibly comprehend. It just makes you look foolish.

[hammered]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

[hammered]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread by from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Anyone who knows the North East would understand this to be nonsense

And the ethnic slur you refer to was very much the kind of rhetoric that was peddled at PAD rallies in Bangkok.It's essentially generated by an urban middle class fear that the long quiescent rural majority will demand fair political representation and an end to the skewed distribution of economic resources.It's a process that ocurred in other countries more than a century ago but it's happening now in Thailand.

And that's the real reason Thaksin is such a hated figure in some circles.

Quote by a Read spokesperson: " Our aims are firstly to fight for true democracy in Thailand, secondly, to show respect and protect people who do good in society, thirdly, to protect the sacred culture of Lanna and lastly, to help serve the poor and the needy."

I think the guys in Isaan will have difficulties adopting Lanna culture...

My wife is form the lower north and all that lanna elitism of how only true northerners do this and that is despised where she comes from. Mind you the response to it: we dont sell our kids like they do in CM and CR is not of a particularly pleasingly intellectual level

Edited to add: not my wife's opinion but common in her area.

Edited September 2, 2009 by hammered

[noithip]

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

I think we should just call the red leaders morons, not the followers! Again providing this link as reference to my assumption:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

And truely, after reading this you'll think moron is a too nice word to use

[noithip]

There seems to be a consensus on this thread by from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters. Highly condescending from people who in the majority have most probably never spent any length of time there.

Anyone who knows the North East would understand this to be nonsense

And the ethnic slur you refer to was very much the kind of rhetoric that was peddled at PAD rallies in Bangkok.It's essentially generated by an urban middle class fear that the long quiescent rural majority will demand fair political representation and an end to the skewed distribution of economic resources.It's a process that ocurred in other countries more than a century ago but it's happening now in Thailand.

And that's the real reason Thaksin is such a hated figure in some circles.

Quote by a Read spokesperson: " Our aims are firstly to fight for true democracy in Thailand, secondly, to show respect and protect people who do good in society, thirdly, to protect the sacred culture of Lanna and lastly, to help serve the poor and the needy."

I think the guys in Isaan will have difficulties adopting Lanna culture...

My wife is form the lower north and all that lanna elitism of how only true northerners do this and that is despised where she comes from. Mind you the response to it: we dont sell our kids like they do in CM and CR is not of a particularly pleasingly intellectual level

Edited to add: not my wife's opinion but common in her area.

"Mind you the response to it: we dont sell our kids like they do in CM and CR is not of a particularly pleasingly intellectual level"

WHAT??? Could you explain this little more?