Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[hammered]

WHAT??? Could you explain this little more?

Kind of banter I guess. The CM/CR crowd of lannaites who state what a northerner is annoy the lower northerners, or at least the ones I know, and they hit back by mentioning the practice of selling kids which they claim still goes on in the lanna areas.

Anyway getting off topic.

By the way, I dont have a problem with describing such a small group as the red leaders as idiots or morons as that is not stereotyping an ethnic group etc

Edited to add: we are talking grassroots talk here and not that in a university or such.

Edited September 2, 2009 by hammered

[hammered]

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

I think we should just call the red leaders morons, not the followers! Again providing this link as reference to my assumption:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

And truely, after reading this you'll think moron is a too nice word to use

That interview is startling. The views on gay parades are not exaclty open minded but the suggestion that those wanting to hold rallies in CM should have their proposals vetted by this group first are nothing short of facistic or maybe more correctly mafioso in style as they are made by a self appointed lanna guardian group. There must be some irony that a group stating it has had its freedom of speech denied wants to deny other groups their similar rights.

These ideas on lanna cultrue and enforcement of it are extreme versions of what I alluded to in my lower northerner comment.

It is always worth reading the propoganda of either side and it wasnt avoided in this interview.

[noithip]

That interview is startling. The views on gay parades are not exaclty open minded but the suggestion that those wanting to hold rallies in CM should have their proposals vetted by this group first are nothing short of facistic or maybe more correctly mafioso in style as they are made by a self appointed lanna guardian group. There must be some irony that a group stating it has had its freedom of speech denied wants to deny other groups their similar rights.

These ideas on lanna cultrue and enforcement of it are extreme versions of what I alluded to in my lower northerner comment.

It is always worth reading the propoganda of either side and it wasnt avoided in this interview.

Thanks for at least reading it, it's hard to discuss things sometimes if people don't know what you are talking about!

[hammered]

That interview is startling. The views on gay parades are not exaclty open minded but the suggestion that those wanting to hold rallies in CM should have their proposals vetted by this group first are nothing short of facistic or maybe more correctly mafioso in style as they are made by a self appointed lanna guardian group. There must be some irony that a group stating it has had its freedom of speech denied wants to deny other groups their similar rights.

These ideas on lanna cultrue and enforcement of it are extreme versions of what I alluded to in my lower northerner comment.

It is always worth reading the propoganda of either side and it wasnt avoided in this interview.

Thanks for at least reading it, it's hard to discuss things sometimes if people don't know what you are talking about!

People should be aware of what these groups think and hearing it form a leader is pretty much open. Thanks for posting it. In this case the group in question would have some problems establishing that its credentials were indeed democratic. Some of the views were facistic. Also the quality of leadership seems poor being possibly delusional but almost certainly meglomaniacal.

[Scott]

I find it condescending when people refer to the northerners or the Issan people as stupid etc. There are lot of poorly educated people, but that doesn't make them stupid.

The crux of the problem is that the country is divided and the divide is getting bigger. Unless the gov't starts to use the political process to reconcile the problem, the situation will get worse. Unfortunately, in the North and to a lesser extend in Issan, this means that you will have the Red Shirts taking control and literally replacing the gov't. Since this group isn't really a political organization, they need to be held in check by the political process and that won't happen unless they are participating in a political process.

A lot of rhetoric and explanations will not replace campaigns and elections. Otherwise you have a further marginalized and more uncontrollable group. In essence, the northern and possibly the Issan region are headed in the same direction as the Southern provinces.

[Plus]

Until MCA mentioned it himself I didn't see any reference to Isanese as stupid in this thread. That was a trollish bait and we swallowed it.

I don't think reds will ever be reconciled with the rest of the country. Ever. So the strategy is to minimise their support base.

Also, reds DO have political representation, but there are signs that even some in PTP got fed up with their pointless campaigns. Even they realise that kicking the dead red horse will never bring them to power, they need to appeal to the rest of the country.

As a polical force both reds and PTP need to realise that they can't hang onto Thaksin coattails forever. But that's the thing - I don't think they are a political movement, just Thaksin fan club.

[Plus]

It doesn't matter if he is the most popular politician. Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Agreed but equally it's important to ensure the law and the judicial process is even handed and not in any sense politically "directed".

Thaskin should accept his punishment. He is guilty as hel_l and should admit it. Until he does, all the talk about even handidness is just a kindgarten level defence.

It's a common tactic now - catch yellows or Dems doing something fishy and then demand full exoneration for Thaksin or whoever you need to save, in the name of fairness. Look at Newin - the police chief going down for bloody Oct 7 crackdown, and a week later BJT proposed full amnesty for everyone involved in political protests in the past year. They mean they trade Patcharawat for letting airport thing go away.

See, it's not very important to them, just a bargaining chip.

Reds want political amnesty for coup makers in exchange for banned 111 freedom.

[Scott]

Plus, I wasn't referring to this particular thread as referring to people as stupid. Some posters have been consistent in denigrating them....but that's a side issue.

Part of the problem is that the split between the red shirts and the political party they tend to support may widen in which case you end up with a renegade group. This is what needs to be addressed.

They need to be brought into the political process, not alienated further by it. They are cultivating tactics which are counterproductive to the overall welfare of the country.

I've lived and worked in areas where the gov't has broken down and civil society has fallen apart. Living under the banner of 'war lords' isn't a cake walk. I'm not suggesting that Thailand is anywhere close to that, but they need to deal with the problem of alienating large swaths of people.

[Plus]

Plus, I wasn't referring to this particular thread as referring to people as stupid. Some posters have been consistent in denigrating them....but that's a side issue.

Where? I think I've read every post here, but the first time it was brought up is on the previous page by MCA without any proof.

Part of the problem is that the split between the red shirts and the political party they tend to support may widen in which case you end up with a renegade group.

So far it's a split between red leadership and red politicians. People will go and vote all the same. Or maybe reds will start their own party. Up to them. Nobody can assign them their representatives.

[frodo]

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

I think we should just call the red leaders morons, not the followers! Again providing this link as reference to my assumption:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

And truely, after reading this you'll think moron is a too nice word to use

Is this lady for real? She's a real nut case. Comparing the reds to Ghandi, (their leader compares himself to Nelson Mandela), basically stating they (the reds) will decide what democracy is and isn't even if it means denying basic rights to certain people, that the reds have never once did anything wrong, even during the songkran riots. I've seen that same theme from a few red fanatics on this board. Very frightening and nothing democratic about it about any of this.

[noithip]

Plus, I wasn't referring to this particular thread as referring to people as stupid. Some posters have been consistent in denigrating them....but that's a side issue.

Part of the problem is that the split between the red shirts and the political party they tend to support may widen in which case you end up with a renegade group. This is what needs to be addressed.

They need to be brought into the political process, not alienated further by it. They are cultivating tactics which are counterproductive to the overall welfare of the country.

I've lived and worked in areas where the gov't has broken down and civil society has fallen apart. Living under the banner of 'war lords' isn't a cake walk. I'm not suggesting that Thailand is anywhere close to that, but they need to deal with the problem of alienating large swaths of people.

Sorry to ask but did you read the interview with this "Rak Chiang Mai 51" co-founder / spokesperson / radio dj? I think they are the ones that alienate themselves from the rest of the country. It is hard to have discussions with fanatics. A group which admits that their members have publicly beaten to death a person and go on to talk about how much they are totally peaceful, just like Gandhi. A group showing signs of many aspects of neo-fascism, that many followers have no clue, what they are really about.

I think they should be dismantled, and the population has to get informed/educated about them.

The problem is that these people are dividing the people for their own agenda, because actually there is no divide, most people all over the country want the same things, they share a common language, they love HM. Surely there are differences in education, mentality, lifestyles, aso, if you compare Bangkok and some little village in Isaan, but isn't this the case everywhere in the world that rural and urban population have different ways of life? I think the divide everybody is talking about is man-made and just serving some peoples agendas.

First of all you have to create a divide only then you can talk about national reconciliation.

All in all IMHO what most people here really want is some sense of security, stability, and peace. And that's again just like any other place in the world.

The government has to do a better job educating the people, instead of constantly reacting to the reds, beeing always a step behind, they should start to make people remember what Thailand is all about (the three pillars): the people (nation), religion, HM the King (royal family)

If the nation starts to forget what unites them, it can only fail. Certain people have high interests in this and are investing in a collapse of this kind. The government has to wake up, and deal with a threat that is much bigger than just dissolving government house again. At the moment there are enough signs, that the very foundation of Thailand is under attack.

[Bukseeda]

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

I think we should just call the red leaders morons, not the followers! Again providing this link as reference to my assumption:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

And truely, after reading this you'll think moron is a too nice word to use

Would you mind copying and pasting the text of the interview here? My internet security won't let me on to that site.

[noithip]

I sent it by PM to you.

[mca]

Until MCA mentioned it himself I didn't see any reference to Isanese as stupid in this thread. That was a trollish bait and we swallowed it.

Ah. The old troll label used against somebody who doesn't agree with you. What I actually said was "intellectual morons" not "stupid" Not necessarily the same as "stupid" is it?

If you'd actually care to read my post instead of throwing the troll stuff around then you might have a point to make. Until then......

This is what I actually said

There seems to be a consensus on this thread from some quarters that Isaan people are some sort of intellectual morons without the necessary brains to make their own judgments about matters and who need to be led by the nose by their betters.

Basically aimed at the post quoted below. And if that isn't condescension of millions of people from the rice farmer to the doctor to the businessman who makes every poster on this forum (including myself) look like a pauper then I don't know what is.

How many of the folks on here with such an insight into how the Isaan people think have actually lived there for any length of time?

Because Thaksin threw a few social sops to the Issan people using other peoples money,

and made BIG press about doing it, leaving the people up north thinking finally someone did something.

And having co-opted the channels of information up there also, anythings done by others for the Issanese,

are not adequately communicated to them. Ignorance is bliss some say, which should not be confused with stupidity,

just not knowing of options or mitigating facts doesn't make one stupid, just poorly informed.

So now that there is seen a general need to address more problems up north and east,

that fact this IS being done in any way, is hidden as much as possible from the recipients.

Thaksin has much support because:

a ) he had a super good economy to work with and milked that to manipulate the Issanese.

He had little to do with a booming world economy at that time, nor pulling Thailand's bacon

from the fire of the Asian Tiger melt down, Dems and Chuan did, but Thaksin took full credit for that recovery..

b ) He privatised state industries, often sold to cronies, and used that ready cash to buy Issan's love.

c ) He kept the Issanese in the dark as much as possible about anything BUT his 'great deeds for them"

Dirt was never allowed to be heard, and actively silenced. But hagiographies were trumpeted.

d ) He robbed from other poor sections of the country to feed his base.

And, conveniently, calling it 'political punishment for not voting for him'.

e ) Developed schemes that made him and cronies money,

but also gave apparent hope to the poor of good luck. 2-3 digit lottery etc.

Drove the national hospital system into effective bankrupcy, while increasing the

private hospitals profits 10 fold, while telling the Issanese why they got such a great deal from it.

You know, many of his cronies had bought into many private hospitals at that time.

f ) He cynically played up fortune tellers, black magic, witchcraft and age old susperstitions

with a faux Budhist overlay, to identify more closely with back country people.

Turning Alms bowls up, dispelling bad luck, having others seen removing thorns from

graven images of himself, turning Karma notions on their heads, for political profit.

Don't look at what my left hand is doing,

since I am handing you 1,000 baht with my right hand.

(while taking 100,000 bt with the left)

Prestidigitation of a whole regions expectations.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[animatic]

It's delusional,

and then propagated as fact to many under-informed folk to get them upset.

S.O.P. Thaksin; control of masses is as or more important as money.

A good manipulation feels better, it's REAL POWER, oooh feel the burn baby!

Money is just a way to keep score.

These poor, not monetarily, but in opportunity for honest discourse, people

are being led down the garden path with promises that can't be kept,

no matter WHO is in charge of cutting the pie. Today realities are NOT

those of 6 years ago, nor is that good time likely to return soon.

Any time something is said about north eastern lack of education or being uninformed,

it is blithely and quickly twisted into a 'stop calling these northern folk stupid' threads.

It is effectively changing the discourse from:

Why are the under informed?

to

How dare you call them stupid!

Thus effectively side-tracking away from the dreaded

mind control by TRT/PPP/PTP /RED tacticians.

S.O.P. Thaksin's minions too. Standard Operating Procedures.

[hammered]

Personally I would go further. Anyone who thinks that stereotyping a group as all morons or for that matter all geniuses is almost certainly at least an intellectual midget if not a moron themself.

What next all Americans are brash and rude, all Brits talk with a plum in their mouth and are football hooligans or all Aussies are stupid?

I think we should just call the red leaders morons, not the followers! Again providing this link as reference to my assumption:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

And truely, after reading this you'll think moron is a too nice word to use

Is this lady for real? She's a real nut case. Comparing the reds to Ghandi, (their leader compares himself to Nelson Mandela), basically stating they (the reds) will decide what democracy is and isn't even if it means denying basic rights to certain people, that the reds have never once did anything wrong, even during the songkran riots. I've seen that same theme from a few red fanatics on this board. Very frightening and nothing democratic about it about any of this.

It is a classic that could be from some poltical satire, but it is real.

[animatic]

Because Thaksin threw a few social sops to the Issan people using other peoples money,

and made BIG press about doing it, leaving the people up north thinking finally someone did something.

And having co-opted the channels of information up there also, anythings done by others for the Issanese,

are not adequately communicated to them. Ignorance is bliss some say,

which should not be confused with stupidity,

just not knowing of options or mitigating facts doesn't make one stupid, just poorly informed.

To quote myself and put it BACK in context.

If you actually READ what I said instead of cherry picking certain words to argue an INCORRECT point,

you might be worthy of respect for your arguments.

But hey lets not let facts get in the way of arguing the masters point of view.

[mca]

It's delusional,

and then propagated as fact to many under-informed folk to get them upset.

S.O.P. Thaksin; control of masses is as or more important as money.

A good manipulation feels better, it's REAL POWER, oooh feel the burn baby!

Money is just a way to keep score.

These poor, not monetarily, but in opportunity for honest discourse, people

are being led down the garden path with promises that can't be kept,

no matter WHO is in charge of cutting the pie. Today realities are NOT

those of 6 years ago, nor is that good time likely to return soon.

Any time something is said about north eastern lack of education or being uninformed,

it is blithely and quickly twisted into a 'stop calling these northern folk stupid' threads.

It is effectively changing the discourse from:

Why are the under informed?

to

How dare you call them stupid!

Thus effectively side-tracking away from the dreaded

mind control by TRT/PPP/PTP /RED tacticians.

S.O.P. Thaksin's minions too. Standard Operating Procedures.

You're doing it again. Condescension to the max.

From your posts you seem to think that the entire population of Isaan consists of rice farmers without a satang to their name who never finished primary school and believe everything some guy in a necktie tells them sitting around finding out if the crops will be good this year from the village witch waiting for 200 baht from the Puu Yai Ban.

I'm side tracking nothing. You seem to be the one with his finger on the pulse of how over twenty million people think and act. Do you actually live in Isaan? Have you ever talked to an Isaan person about how "informed" they are or are your thoughts something you read and regurgitated here?

Stuff like "Mind controlled by the TRT/PPP/PTP/RED tacticians" just sounds hysterical and laughable.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[animatic]

It's delusional,

and then propagated as fact to many under-informed folk to get them upset.

S.O.P. Thaksin; control of masses is as or more important as money.

A good manipulation feels better, it's REAL POWER, oooh feel the burn baby!

Money is just a way to keep score.

These poor, not monetarily, but in opportunity for honest discourse, people

are being led down the garden path with promises that can't be kept,

no matter WHO is in charge of cutting the pie. Today realities are NOT

those of 6 years ago, nor is that good time likely to return soon.

Any time something is said about north eastern lack of education or being uninformed,

it is blithely and quickly twisted into a 'stop calling these northern folk stupid' threads.

It is effectively changing the discourse from:

Why are the under informed?

to

How dare you call them stupid!

Thus effectively side-tracking away from the dreaded

mind control by TRT/PPP/PTP /RED tacticians.

S.O.P. Thaksin's minions too. Standard Operating Procedures.

You're doing it again. Condescension to the max.

From your posts you seem to think that the entire population of Isaan consists of rice farmers without a satang to their name who never finished primary school and believe everything some guy in a necktie tells them sitting around finding out if the crops will be good this year from the village witch waiting for 200 baht from the Puu Yai Ban.

I'm side tracking nothing. You seem to be the one with his finger on the pulse of how over twenty million people think and act. Do you actually live in Isaan? Have you ever talked to an Isaan person about how "informed" they are or are your thoughts something you read and regurgitated here?

Stuff like "Mind controlled by the TRT/PPP/PTP/RED tacticians" just sounds hysterical and laughable.

And yet AGAIN you don't seem to understand the arguments.

It's not my fault you don't understand them.

An yet again you imply the opposite of my meaning because it fits your ends.

You clearly ONLY decide to include some of my posts in your over-view of me to fit your agenda.

Note I didn't say "agenized" posts ...

Most people can easily see Thaksin's manipulations,

and he isn't doing this stuff for upper middle class Bangkokians for sure.

If Thaksin truly believes this superstitious stuff then he's a nut,

if he doesn't he is a cynical abuser of his voter base's fears.

A person need not live full time IN Issan to know many Issan folks.

I have met with 3 Issan folks today, how about you?

Most here are younger and better informed, and THEY say,

back home many are not, and that worries them a lot.

Particularly the older ones don't want to listen to the younger ones, only fellow elders like village heads,

Kow Tow ethics and age/respect ethics in play, where truth need not be considered because

the 30 somethings are not old enough to hold the floor yet, in the elders unchanging opinions

You continually try and twist my distaste for Thaksin's manipulations

into some alleged dislike of much of the Thai populace. Disingenuous claptrap.

All you do is make your argument come up false.

Sorry controlling what information is seen and heard ANYWHERE is mind control.

Ad agencies have been doing this for years. Politicians even longer. Fascist dictators excel at this.

It is a classic central part of the divide and conquer political control theories.

[mca]

It's delusional,

and then propagated as fact to many under-informed folk to get them upset.

S.O.P. Thaksin; control of masses is as or more important as money.

A good manipulation feels better, it's REAL POWER, oooh feel the burn baby!

Money is just a way to keep score.

These poor, not monetarily, but in opportunity for honest discourse, people

are being led down the garden path with promises that can't be kept,

no matter WHO is in charge of cutting the pie. Today realities are NOT

those of 6 years ago, nor is that good time likely to return soon.

Any time something is said about north eastern lack of education or being uninformed,

it is blithely and quickly twisted into a 'stop calling these northern folk stupid' threads.

It is effectively changing the discourse from:

Why are the under informed?

to

How dare you call them stupid!

Thus effectively side-tracking away from the dreaded

mind control by TRT/PPP/PTP /RED tacticians.

S.O.P. Thaksin's minions too. Standard Operating Procedures.

You're doing it again. Condescension to the max.

From your posts you seem to think that the entire population of Isaan consists of rice farmers without a satang to their name who never finished primary school and believe everything some guy in a necktie tells them sitting around finding out if the crops will be good this year from the village witch waiting for 200 baht from the Puu Yai Ban.

I'm side tracking nothing. You seem to be the one with his finger on the pulse of how over twenty million people think and act. Do you actually live in Isaan? Have you ever talked to an Isaan person about how "informed" they are or are your thoughts something you read and regurgitated here?

Stuff like "Mind controlled by the TRT/PPP/PTP/RED tacticians" just sounds hysterical and laughable.

And yet AGAIN you don't seem to understand the arguments.

It's not my fault you don't understand them.

An yet again you imply the opposite of my meaning because it fits your ends.

You clearly ONLY decide to include some of my posts in your over-view of me to fit your agenda.

Note I didn't say "agenized" posts ...

Most people can easily see Thaksin's manipulations,

and he isn't doing this stuff for upper middle class Bangkokians for sure.

If Thaksin truly believes this superstitious stuff then he's a nut,

if he doesn't he is a cynical abuser of his voter base's fears.

A person need not live full time IN Issan to know many Issan folks.

I have met with 3 Issan folks today, how about you?

Most here are younger and better informed, and THEY say,

back home many are not, and that worries them a lot.

Particularly the older ones don't want to listen to the younger ones, only fellow elders like village heads,

Kow Tow ethics and age/respect ethics in play, where truth need not be considered because

the 30 somethings are not old enough to hold the floor yet, in the elders unchanging opinions

You continually try and twist my distaste for Thaksin's manipulations

into some alleged dislike of much of the Thai populace. Disingenuous claptrap.

All you do is make your argument come up false.

Sorry controlling what information is seen and heard ANYWHERE is mind control.

Ad agencies have been doing this for years. Politicians even longer. Fascist dictators excel at this.

It is a classic central part of the divide and conquer political control theories.

How many Isaan people have you met today? How old are you? 10?

Again you seem to be having trouble getting your head round the fact that I'm after you for your sweeping generalization of a whole group of people who you consider to be "ill informed" and under educated" (your words not mine).

For sure Thaksin is a manipulator. For sure he's got an agenda. But for every person who you consider to be "ill informed" and "under educated" I'll show you 10 more who aren't and base their decisions on what they consider to be best for their country and getting a free TRT t-shirt and a few hundred baht doesn't come in to the equation. It's their right to vote as they see fit and if they wanted to overlook Thaksin's major flaws and vote for the man that's not my or your business. They make their bed etc.

For every rice farmer in Isaan there's a man or woman working in a bank, as an engineer, as a nurse, etc. And the poor buggers who can't read or write are vastly outnumbered by people who completed at least high school and in many cases (even among the poorer families-fathers sell watermelons from the back of a pick up or driving a 10 wheel truck) are putting a kid through college.

Doesn't exactly fit in with your stereotype of 20 million people does it. It'd be like me saying every black guy is a mugger. Brainless.

[animatic]

You're doing it again. Condescension to the max.

From your posts you seem to think that the entire population of Isaan consists of rice farmers without a satang to their name who never finished primary school and believe everything some guy in a necktie tells them sitting around finding out if the crops will be good this year from the village witch waiting for 200 baht from the Puu Yai Ban.

I'm side tracking nothing. You seem to be the one with his finger on the pulse of how over twenty million people think and act. Do you actually live in Isaan? Have you ever talked to an Isaan person about how "informed" they are or are your thoughts something you read and regurgitated here?

Stuff like "Mind controlled by the TRT/PPP/PTP/RED tacticians" just sounds hysterical and laughable.

And yet AGAIN you don't seem to understand the arguments.

It's not my fault you don't understand them.

An yet again you imply the opposite of my meaning because it fits your ends.

You clearly ONLY decide to include some of my posts in your over-view of me to fit your agenda.

Note I didn't say "agenized" posts ...

Most people can easily see Thaksin's manipulations,

and he isn't doing this stuff for upper middle class Bangkokians for sure.

If Thaksin truly believes this superstitious stuff then he's a nut,

if he doesn't he is a cynical abuser of his voter base's fears.

A person need not live full time IN Issan to know many Issan folks.

I have met with 3 Issan folks today, how about you?

Most here are younger and better informed, and THEY say,

back home many are not, and that worries them a lot.

Particularly the older ones don't want to listen to the younger ones, only fellow elders like village heads,

Kow Tow ethics and age/respect ethics in play, where truth need not be considered because

the 30 somethings are not old enough to hold the floor yet, in the elders unchanging opinions

You continually try and twist my distaste for Thaksin's manipulations

into some alleged dislike of much of the Thai populace. Disingenuous claptrap.

All you do is make your argument come up false.

Sorry controlling what information is seen and heard ANYWHERE is mind control.

Ad agencies have been doing this for years. Politicians even longer. Fascist dictators excel at this.

It is a classic central part of the divide and conquer political control theories.

How many Isaan people have you met today? How old are you? 10?

Again you seem to be having trouble getting your head round the fact that I'm after you for your sweeping generalization of a whole group of people who you consider to be "ill informed" and under educated" (your words not mine).

For sure Thaksin is a manipulator. For sure he's got an agenda. But for every person who you consider to be "ill informed" and "under educated" I'll show you 10 more who aren't and base their decisions on what they consider to be best for their country and getting a free TRT t-shirt and a few hundred baht doesn't come in to the equation. It's their right to vote as they see fit and if they wanted to overlook Thaksin's major flaws and vote for the man that's not my or your business. They make their bed etc.

For every rice farmer in Isaan there's a man or woman working in a bank, as an engineer, as a nurse, etc. And the poor buggers who can't read or write are vastly outnumbered by people who completed at least high school and in many cases (even among the poorer families-fathers sell watermelons from the back of a pick up or driving a 10 wheel truck) are putting a kid through college.

Doesn't exactly fit in with your stereotype of 20 million people does it. It'd be like me saying every black guy is a mugger. Brainless.

You are holding up the ability to interact with Issan people as a benchmark to understanding them,

I answered and asked you your reference point. Not childish, it asking for points of reference.

Considering the dozens of threads that have covered the lack of adequate schooling opportunities and facilities,

and financial constraints; like school uniforms and books etc, preventing some North East people from attaining

a complete education, this is not a isolated, nor denigrating comment. Looking at the problem squarely doesn't

make you either condescending nor patronizing, I have said MANY MANY times on TVF that I am for increased

educational opportunities for ALL THAIS. This of course is blithely ignored. And under-educated doesn't mean

UN-educated, does it, No, it means not having the same level or time in school compared to those in some other

regions. And repeatedly stated this is not about regional stupidity. Nor a gloablist look as if Issan were some homogenized whole.

On a per capita basis do you think most Issan people get the same level of

educational opportunities and general level of education as people in Bangkok or other regions?

I wish they did. I don't see Thaksin as anything like a solution to this problem.

Sweeping generalizations like stereo-types are usually based on repeated truths,

that become folk lore and accepted, even after times have changed. But there is usually,

a kernel of truth throughout. Based on multiple sources this point about manipulation

of the information reaching Isasan folks is verifiable. It need not be sweeping for EVERY single person,

some puyais no the score better than their neighbors. Some parents DO listen to their kids too.

But I have seen the SAME level of 'don't dare to talk opposition' or you get hassled mindset in USA,

just before Bush was re-elected. It was disgusting and is clearly mirrored in many Issan corners today.

If they are fully informed of Thaksins major flaws and want to vote for him so be it.

But they also need to be informed of Thaksin's OPPONENTS good points and actual aims,

not spurious propaganda, if they are to be expected to vote properly,

IE with all available TRUE info. Informed consent of the voter.

My argument is not about Issan people being less intelligent, individually or as a total group, never was,

but AGAINST Thaksin's over-arching manipulation of what they GET to see and hear,

and the cultural idiosyncrasies he so cynically plays on to do it.

I suppose it is impossible to have a serious discussion of Thaksin's political manipulations here

without the word condescending thrown out as a slight, and let's add patronizing too if you like.

Since the two words seem to form a mobious loop within their respective definitions.

Edited September 2, 2009 by animatic

[mca]

You are holding up the ability to interact with Issan people as a benchmark to understanding them,

Well it certainly beats not interacting with them and trying to understand them doesn't it? What other point of reference would a person have without it? Wild guesses? Reading stuff in the media?

Seriously I'm not looking for an argument here. It's just the internet. But I genuinely want to know where you get your massive generalizations about Isaan people from when you interact with them in a miniscule way

.

On a per capita basis do you think most Issan people get the same level of

educational opportunities as people in Bangkok or other regions?

Sure. I want to dispel this myth that Isaan is just some giant paddy field with uneducated kids running around while their uneducated folks plant rice. It's simply not true. The vast, vast majority of Isaan kids (even the ones from the poorer families) are schooled up to M4 and beyond and the ones who aren't, well, that's not just Isaan. You'll find that everywhere in Thailand including Bangkok.

If they are fully informed of Thaksins major flaws and want to vote for him so be it.

But they also need to be informed of Thaksin's OPPONENTS good points and actual aims,

not spurious propaganda, if they are to be expected to vote properly,

IE with all available TRUE info. Informed consent of the voter.

My argument is not about Issan people being less intelligent, individually or as a total group, never was,

but AGAINST Thaksin's over-arching manipulation of what they GET to see and hear,

I'd like to credit Isaan people with a bit more common sense, shrewdness and political awareness than you obviously do.

[LawnGnome]

mca, you are way out of your league...better stay in the kiddy pool for the time being.

[mca]

Well if that's the best you can come up with to refute my arguments then I'm hardly shaking in my shoes at the viewpoint you're offering. From that effort (with the emphasis on "effort") it looks like you're standing at the edge of the kiddies pool with your waterwings on.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[Plus]

I see that Animatic went out of the way NOT to call Isanese stupid or no brained intellectual morons.

How did MCA came up with "There seems to be a consensus on this thread from some quarters.." is beyond me.

Given that this MCA's line started an off topic debate stretching for pages - yes, it was trollish. He accused "some quarters" of saying things they didn't say and forming some kind of consensus, and it all went down from there.

[mca]

Plus. You're obviously not exactly the sharpest tool in the box but do try to keep up.

Animatic referred to Isaan people (not some) as under educated, ignorant and uniformed. He has not brought any points to back up these condescending claims apart form a load of rhetoric.

Plus (sigh) I never said he called Isaan people stupid or intellectual morons no matter how much you want to believe it. I'll fully admit to using the word "intellectual morons" but by the dictionary definition of these words his opinions of over 20 million people fit that train of thought. You don't have to actually say something for people to form an opinion of where you're coming from do you? Or maybe this simple concept is "beyond you" also

Now anything concrete or original to add to refute my own opinions on Isaan people or is the "Troll" CD stuck on replay?

In fact I'll make it easy for you

Do you consider Isaan people under educated, ignorant and uniformed? Simple yes or no. Possibly not even beyond you.

At least this old troll will know where you stand.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mca

[Insight]

In my early days here back in 2001, when I frequented the bar scene a h3ll of a lot more than I do now (label me what you wish for that), the mantra I heard often from the folk working there about Thaksin was along the lines of...

"He's got so much money he'll put it back into Thailand and the economy"

"He doesn't need to be corrupt as he has all his money"

"He gives away lots of money so he's a good man"

"He will be good at managing the government because he is good with business"

Do you believe these statements now have any credibility, mca? Do you know anybody that does?

There's a difference between calling somebody stupid and calling somebody mislead. I don't think anybody here is using the former.

[Plus]

"Ignorance is bliss some say, which should not be confused with stupidity,

just not knowing of options or mitigating facts doesn't make one stupid, just poorly informed."

Poorly informed is nowhere near "intellectual morons"

"He kept the Issanese in the dark as much as possible about anything BUT his 'great deeds for them""

He was talking about Thaksin, and "being kept in the dark" is not being an "intellectual moron".

"He cynically played up fortune tellers, black magic, witchcraft and age old susperstitions

with a faux Budhist overlay, to identify more closely with back country people."

Yet again, nothing to suggest Animatic called them "intellectual morons".

It's you, MCA, who put these words into other's mouths, not forgetting that one Animatic's post itself doesn't qualify as "consensus in some quarters". Who else did you imply thinks that Isanese are "intellectual morons"?

[noithip]

Plus. You're obviously not exactly the sharpest tool in the box but do try to keep up.

Animatic referred to Isaan people (not some) as under educated, ignorant and uniformed. He has not brought any points to back up these condescending claims apart form a load of rhetoric.

Plus (sigh) I never said he called Isaan people stupid no matter how much you want to believe it. Sure I said "intellectual morons" but by the dictionary definition of these words his opinions of over 20 million people fit that train of thought

Now anything concrete or original to add to refute my own opinions on Isaan people or is the "Troll" CD stuck on replay?

@mca

Any way you are bitching about words never said for a special reason?

And if you reply it would be too kind to me your opinion about the interview of the "Rak Chiang Mai 51" spokeswoman?

If you are too lazy to go back the few pages that you where trying to type into somebody else keyboard here is the link, again:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

I would be really interested to know without beeing a totally uneducated and/or stupid and/or ignorant person, how could someone follow a woman like this?

Thank you

[mca]

I can't believe you're really this obtuse. tell me you're kidding.If you'd care to read my post you'd see I said that Animatic didn't say those words. If you really need somebody to completely verbalize something before forming an opinion based on other things they wrote then you must be all of 5 years old.

Plus where I'm from some quarters can refer to a single entity.

Poorly informed is nowhere near "intellectual morons"

He also used the word "ignorance" or is that a term used in reference to nuclear physicists where you're from?

He was talking about Thaksin, and "being kept in the dark" is not being an "intellectual moron"

As another point goes sailing into the stratosphere above your head. My point is that Thaksin didn't keep Isaan people in the dark with his B/S. They aren't daft. To suggest otherwise would indicate that yes, Isaan people are "intellectual morons'