Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[hilly]

Thaksin said he did not want this rally to go ahead and I guess he withdrew his financial support so no great surprise. He must be pinning all his last hopes on the petition and does not want to risk rocking that boat.

[anterian]

This seems to me like a moral victory to the Reds, they can say to their supporters that the government is using every means available to prevent them from holding peaceful rallies. They, themselves are peacefully abiding by the law, even if being unfairly used by a government which is running scared.

[loveissan]

The irony runs thick in this thread.

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

Also amusing to see that those who supported a group who stormed an international airport and found it "good fun" are so outraged at a broken hotel door ::2 cents::

Firestar;

Very direct and correct. I hope some of these pad leaders and members can answer me these questions, #1 Why did the government let anyone near the pm car let alone near the motorcade in Pattaya. They had the supposed guy who they found immediately,out of the so-called horrid masses.they took him to jail, let him out for a smoke unhandcuffed and he has not been seen since.this is the leader of a nation and surrounded by police and security personel #2 how is it that that the yellow shirts can lock down the country for all that time ,and only they can allow commericial flight s out..as far as the violence, no one has mentioned the guy that was holding the gun and "Firing it into the direction of the crowd during the latter days of the pad fesco, not to mention the millons of baht loss by there seige.If you want to know where the luggage carriers went from the airport just pull up the film footage of the packing up the pad did on the last day. #3 why are these people so up in arms about thaksin, when this country has a lot of wrongdoers here to look for.He is no more a criminal than any one else in this mess before and after..

[loveissan]

Vindication for imposing the security measures. Obviously the reds want a violent revolution and they realized they were not ready to resist the new security measures. They could have had a PEACEFUL rally. That is clearly not what they wanted. Kudos to Abhisit for restraint before, but increased resistance in view of the reality of what these reds are REALLY all about (and it ain't democracy).

I disagree , you fool !

Of course they want a peaceful rally, but they realise that they are being 'set up' with all those security troops.

It is obvious that there will be some bad buggers seeded into the crowd to cause trouble, this will bring in the security and bingo! just what the government are looking for..........................WAKE UP! the Redshirts have.

You have been out maneouvered again!

[wayfarer108]

I know a fairly wide circle of Thai people who are either government officials or businessmen, and almost all of them would agree that Thaksin, despite his many faults, offered the "least worst" option for progressing the country towards first-world status. All agree that since he has gone, the country has gone backwards especially in terms of crime levels and police corruption.

They are not, however, Thaksin nor Red Shirt supporters and abhor the violence. They dont really have a voice although if pressed they would fall on the side of the Reds, but they dont agree with the hero-worshipping of Thaksin and dont want to see him back in power.

The only person I know who is a direct supporter of either side supports the Yellows and he is a high-ranking government official who lives in a huge house which he could not possibly have bought on his salary alone..

Interesting because I also have a wide circle of Thai acquaintances at various levels of the private and public sector, and most abhor the Reds in principle and tactics. I've noticed that most taxi drivers in Bkk, many of whom come from outside Bkk, whom I chat with about politics loudly claim to have disavowed the Red Manifesto since the Songkran battle.

I don't suppose you live in Isan? At any rate, I suppose it depends on who you know, and it just goes to show how subjective it is. Most polls seem to put the Red cause at a disadvantage however.

Reading through this thread, I find it amusing that so many farang expats have been duped into believing Red propaganda/mythology, ie that they represent a majority of the Thai population. Look at their leadership, no one from the poor there. How many Thailand-based NGOs support the Reds? Virtually none. At least the PAD had their support, for the most part. However the Suvarnabhumi takeover put quite a dent in their popularity.

[wayfarer108]

This seems to me like a moral victory to the Reds, they can say to their supporters that the government is using every means available to prevent them from holding peaceful rallies. They, themselves are peacefully abiding by the law, even if being unfairly used by a government which is running scared.

A classic example of wishful thinking. There is a lot more to the situation than the invocation of the ISA. I'd say it looks more like the Redskirts seem to be losing their way because of division in the ranks (factions that didn't want to attend, and more importantly Thaksin's publicly expressed reservations) and lack of popular support.

[tropo]

It's a simple equation, competence coupled with opportunity can make effective changes.

Incompetence coupled with vengeful paternalist fascism will only breed long term disorder,

and increased hatred.

Yeah, that's real simple. A solution from the text book on world peace.

Allow competent people to protest and take away all rights from incompetents.

Now who's going to decide who's competent and who's incompetent?

[animatic]

I know a fairly wide circle of Thai people who are either government officials or businessmen, and almost all of them would agree that Thaksin, despite his many faults, offered the "least worst" option for progressing the country towards first-world status. All agree that since he has gone, the country has gone backwards especially in terms of crime levels and police corruption.

They are not, however, Thaksin nor Red Shirt supporters and abhor the violence. They dont really have a voice although if pressed they would fall on the side of the Reds, but they dont agree with the hero-worshipping of Thaksin and dont want to see him back in power.

The only person I know who is a direct supporter of either side supports the Yellows and he is a high-ranking government official who lives in a huge house which he could not possibly have bought on his salary alone..

Interesting because I also have a wide circle of Thai acquaintances at various levels of the private and public sector, and most abhor the Reds in principle and tactics. I've noticed that most taxi drivers in Bkk, many of whom come from outside Bkk, whom I chat with about politics loudly claim to have disavowed the Red Manifesto since the Songkran battle.

I don't suppose you live in Isan? At any rate, I suppose it depends on who you know, and it just goes to show how subjective it is. Most polls seem to put the Red cause at a disadvantage however.

Reading through this thread, I find it amusing that so many farang expats have been duped into believing Red propaganda/mythology, ie that they represent a majority of the Thai population. Look at their leadership, no one from the poor there. How many Thailand-based NGOs support the Reds? Virtually none. At least the PAD had their support, for the most part. However the Suvarnabhumi takeover put quite a dent in their popularity.

I can say the same. Yes even Taxi Drivers are understanding the difference between anti-Thaksin and anti-Poor in Issan.

Which is a VERY wide difference, in intent and meaning.

Many high ranking politicians also did work in the private sector before entering politics.

Banks give loan's people who have worked hard and so can buy a big house,

and THEN go into politics.

[animatic]

It's a simple equation, competence coupled with opportunity can make effective changes.

Incompetence coupled with vengeful paternalist fascism will only breed long term disorder,

and increased hatred.

Yeah, that's real simple. A solution from the text book on world peace.

Allow competent people to protest and take away all rights from incompetents.

Now who's going to decide who's competent and who's incompetent?

Those that accomplish are competent, those that only bitch, moan or denigtrate,

are likely incompetent. Their actions will speak for themselves in any fair comparison.

This incompetent point is not aimed at Issan people nor the poor in general, as you seem to imply,

nor is it pro Yellow as you imply, but at the utterly ineffectual opposition party PTP,

not being even slightly a viable choice to run Thailand at this point in time.

Please explain why they are so qualified to run the country? Without Thaksin?

No one so far has yet to list the PTP accomplishments.

Harassing Abhisit at every turn is not adequate preparation, nor show of leadership abilities.

Nor did I say let competent people protest and take away rights.

So you can forget trying to bend my meaning for your partisan ends.

Thaksin will clearly return as avenger and despot in charge, if able to,

and having seen his vengeance, FIRST HAND, on those who simply

DIDN'T vote for TRT, I am not willing to stand by idly and wait for him to

rain terror on the country. That would be a very stupid thing to do.

[loveissan]

Vindication for imposing the security measures. Obviously the reds want a violent revolution and they realized they were not ready to resist the new security measures. They could have had a PEACEFUL rally. That is clearly not what they wanted. Kudos to Abhisit for restraint before, but increased resistance in view of the reality of what these reds are REALLY all about (and it ain't democracy).

I disagree , you fool !

Of course they want a peaceful rally, but they realise that they are being 'set up' with all those security troops.

It is obvious that there will be some bad buggers seeded into the crowd to cause trouble, this will bring in the security and bingo! just what the government are looking for..........................WAKE UP! the Redshirts have.

You have been out maneouvered again!

About the seeding that goes on;I personally was at the government house in Khon kean the last time the UDD was holding a rally.I watched as police and security personel was holding there briefing out side. I witnessed approximetly 30 plain clothes men. in formation with the uniformed personel.I don't think they were government gardners.I have seen these work in 2 ways.To agitate and promote violence and even start and perticipate this violence.The other reason was to gatehr intellegence for authority. Seeing some of the intellegence displayed form what passes the authorities here, I will go with the 1st option .reallyok, you have seen what many refuse,espically the man with the hat

[court]

Sunday rally postponed

BANGKOK: -- Pro-Thaksin protesters announced Saturday they decided to postpone their mass rally planned for Sunday as they are not allowed to gather under the internal security laws.

They said they planned to rally on September 5.

They would again postpone their rally if the government enforced the Internal Security Act again for their Sept 5 rally.

-- The Nation 2009-08-29

They will put it off until we plan to arrive in November again. Got stranded in Japan for 4 days last year

[animatic]

They don't need outside ringers to make the Reds go tits up.

They have enough INSIDE ringers to suffice.

[Arkady]

It is not clear whether Thaksin or the red leaders directly under his control intended the Songkran protests to turn violent in the way they did but, once it had started, they clearly saw the potential of using violent protest as a way to provoke bloody suppression by the military that could be a catalyst for political change in their favour. Now that seems to be the strategy. Obviously a peaceful rally with the ISA in force will not achieve that - so pointless.

[animatic]

Sunday rally postponed

BANGKOK: -- Pro-Thaksin protesters announced Saturday they decided to postpone their mass rally planned for Sunday as they are not allowed to gather under the internal security laws.

They said they planned to rally on September 5.

They would again postpone their rally if the government enforced the Internal Security Act again for their Sept 5 rally.

-- The Nation 2009-08-29

They will put it off until we plan to arrive in November again. Got stranded in Japan for 4 days last year

Late October to early November is the time for Thaksin's cash to be on the block.

Beware the Ides of October (15th odd and propitious day)

But take your vacations anyway. Phuket, Samui, Pattaya, Chaingmai and 95% of Bangkok

will be untouched by this, including the major airports. There will not be another major airport takeover.

If you are really worried book in and out of Samui or Phuket as a base for visiting.

Edited August 29, 2009 by animatic

[noithip]

About the seeding that goes on;I personally was at the government house in Khon kean the last time the UDD was holding a rally.I watched as police and security personel was holding there briefing out side. I witnessed approximetly 30 plain clothes men. in formation with the uniformed personel.I don't think they were government gardners.I have seen these work in 2 ways.To agitate and promote violence and even start and perticipate this violence.The other reason was to gatehr intellegence for authority. Seeing some of the intellegence displayed form what passes the authorities here, I will go with the 1st option .reallyok, you have seen what many refuse,espically the man with the hat

So you saw plain clothed policeman? First time in your life? And where have you seen them work in two ways? What a hillarious statement! but I like the idea with the gardeners, reminds me on somebody

[bangon04]

If they cant even organise a demonstration then theres no hope in Thailand if the Reds get into government .

There's the rub - they doubt their own ability to stage a (peaceful) demonstration, so blame the establishment. It does look like another shot in the foot....

[fxe1200]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Cronies here, cronies there, I admit they try hard to achieve a functioning democracy, but will the Thai people ever succeed?

[monkfish]

Not sure if this is to much of topic? If so mods please do delete it.

It is related to ISA though and makes interesting reading.

http://www.ahrc-thailand.net/index.php?opt...&Itemid=127

Edit: An example of how ISA can be miss used

Edited August 29, 2009 by monkfish

[WISteve]

Not allowed to protest? They were allowed to protest as long as it was civil or orderly. Perhaps that was too much to ask for.

That's not true.

They cooled their statements a bit after the fact, but Suthep (the guy who is really in control) came out with a blanket statement according to Agence France Presse:

"......"No demonstration will be allowed in the area under the Internal Security Act," Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban told reporters, adding that it would also cover the cabinet and prime minister's offices at Government House.

His announcement came just a day after Abhisit said the protesters would be allowed to mass in the area, but that they would be subject to the security law which allows the military to take to the streets."

The Himilayan/Agence France Presse

~WISteve

[Plus]

They couldn't block the govt house, they were free to assemble at Sanam Luang.

>>>

Re "moral victory" - sure, when going gets tough declare victory and retreat.

There is overwhelming concern about possibility of red demos inflicting damage to the country in one way or another, I bet all those people feel relieved now.

[h90]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

I am not aware that the red shirts do get a cut of the 10% surcharge that this government has planned on an outrageous loan that they are about to take out OR were you born yesterday?

You are not aware that most of the red shirts join for a 500 Baht per day.

[h90]

This seems to me like a moral victory to the Reds, they can say to their supporters that the government is using every means available to prevent them from holding peaceful rallies. They, themselves are peacefully abiding by the law, even if being unfairly used by a government which is running scared.

What MORAL victory can someone have who go in the small town outside, to offer 500 Baht for poor/uneducated people to join demonstrations in Bangkok??

Peacefully? Where have you been on Sonkran?

[TAWP]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

I am not aware that the red shirts do get a cut of the 10% surcharge that this government has planned on an outrageous loan that they are about to take out OR were you born yesterday?

You are not aware that most of the red shirts join for a 500 Baht per day.

I don't think any large mass and certainly no majority is getting payed 500B per day. If anyone is getting payed, it is the 'headhunters' one level above, that fills the minivans. And they are also the one touting the biggest distortion and propaganda, as taking the things said at the top and spun out of control, much like the chain-SMSs that is sent around.

[noithip]

You are not aware that most of the red shirts join for a 500 Baht per day.

500 Baht? Why you didn't tell me earlier? Where can I sign up? Maybe soon we'll get paid DIAMONDS!

[WISteve]

There is overwhelming concern about possibility of red demos inflicting damage to the country in one way or another, I bet all those people feel relieved now.

And closing the airport last December to install your own "shirt" for a PM didn't harm the nation in the least bit?

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

I am not aware that the red shirts do get a cut of the 10% surcharge that this government has planned on an outrageous loan that they are about to take out OR were you born yesterday?

You are not aware that most of the red shirts join for a 500 Baht per day.

Paid demonstrators are nothing new to Thailand on either side of the argument.

But wouldn't it be a shock to learn that some Thai people (without being paid) would prefer an elected government over a regime installed with money and thuggery?

~WISteve

[brahmburgers]

Yellows represent the status quo. The status quo is very comfortable for the elite, and that includes well off expats in plush condos with maids, drivers etc etc.

The reds, however amorphous, represent the future, and the future in this country will be more egalitarian than the present.

Red, yellow, shmellow, dred. Thailand doesn't need groups in colored shirts dictating the direction of the country, it needs robust political parties that have the brains and the balls to state their views publicly, to debate, .....and the maturity to allow others to express opinions that may differ with their own without going ballistic and threatening anti-defamation suits, et. al. Thailand's political landscape reflects the emotional maturity of its people. But things can get better. For starters, town hall-type meetings would be a step in the right direction - with politicos of various stripes presenting their views in open forums, and encouraging regular people to react, offer suggestions, vote freely, etc.

I don't get it. The BKP has an article today that says there is no problem with the "Reds" having their gathering as long as it's peaceful, and told them so. Is there a problem with the "peaceful" part with the "Reds"??

Yes. They want the option to get violent. They're at the end of their red rope, and their desperation is showing.

[Plus]

There is overwhelming concern about possibility of red demos inflicting damage to the country in one way or another, I bet all those people feel relieved now.

And closing the airport last December to install your own "shirt" for a PM didn't harm the nation in the least bit?

~WISteve

People are not worried about last year. Today they are worried about what's going to happen tomorrow, or next week, or October - whenever it is the reds are promising a big revolution.

[Coolmen]

My guess are that the Machiavelli Mind of the leader is loosing his stamina. Maybe slowly he understands the fact, that going against the establisment will lead him to nowhere! Would be cool to see what comes out of it. Credit where Credit is due, the runaway Former did one thing well. He created a rift within the haves and have nots, somethings unthinkable bevor. and possible out of this rift a Thailand emerges which can be proud of it self. Now it can not be proud of its doing and ongoing. Parlament debates are just first grade kindergarden from the opposition. All I can say as an Observer. Instead of spending hours over hours to block usefull actions by fabricate false evidence. Proof that you can do it better by just doing it. That would prove that you are right, but instead you go on and support financed unrest against the country. While the possible mastermind travels the world and visits with what politicans? Shame on you, but there is no shame because the face is long lost ready.

Remember the wise Words? We the Thais are on the brink to destroy our beloved Country. And only we the Thai People to blame for it. Take a turn please or you will get turned by the Tide. Say to yourself.

Purk Rao Tham Daii - Yes we can, either destroy or build up the choice is ours. That is democracy.

[tracer0]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

Maybe rain WILL fall and they don't want to pay to get everyone wet....

Whatever Its getting very close to booking dates where people have to decide where to go and if Thailand wants to have another screwed up tourist season well, they are doing it the right way. All these stupid demonstrations should stop

and ISAN is the first part of the country to feel the real negative effects....

[animatic]

My guess are that the Machiavelli Mind of the leader is loosing his stamina. Maybe slowly he understands the fact, that going against the establisment will lead him to nowhere! Would be cool to see what comes out of it. Credit where Credit is due, the runaway Former did one thing well. He created a rift within the haves and have nots, somethings unthinkable bevor. and possible out of this rift a Thailand emerges which can be proud of it self. Now it can not be proud of its doing and ongoing. Parlament debates are just first grade kindergarden from the opposition. All I can say as an Observer. Instead of spending hours over hours to block usefull actions by fabricate false evidence. Proof that you can do it better by just doing it. That would prove that you are right, but instead you go on and support financed unrest against the country. While the possible mastermind travels the world and visits with what politicans? Shame on you, but there is no shame because the face is long lost ready.

Remember the wise Words? We the Thais are on the brink to destroy our beloved Country. And only we the Thai People to blame for it. Take a turn please or you will get turned by the Tide. Say to yourself.

Purk Rao Tham Daii - Yes we can, either destroy or build up the choice is ours. That is democracy.

In general pretty on the mark.

Particularly the comments on PTP in opposition.

Not even conceptually ready to lead a nation.

They can barely run themselves without hitting walls.

And look at their 1st and 2nd string mentors...

What part of: You need to TRY not to get caught don't you understand?

Edited August 29, 2009 by animatic