Living In China After Thailand

[thaihome]

One of the problems I have with the Han Chinese is their utter self-obsession; it is the hard-wired way they view the "outside world" and the many minorities within China's own borders. Its in their DNA, so to speak; they often don't even realize they are behaving in a culturally insulting way, particularly as they interact with the "minority" (ie:non-Han) groups, which can be incessantly referred to as a minority even if they comprise the majority of the population in their ancestral homeland.

I think that goes a long way toward explaining how the oldest living culture on earth can be one of the most backward in the 20th Century.

Their educational system and culture are not ideal for accepting new ideas or creating innovative ones of their own. It is a top-down command culture even today and students often learn by rote memory. I will ask newbies I deal with to write a particular story and often get back a numbered list of statements parroted from some other document, which often have only a passing relationship with reality. Even logic flies out the window -- they will happily report that a lumber mill in the Inner Mongolian desert covers 100 square kilometers. They will not wonder if that can be possible in a land with no trees and will defend the assertion because some local government official told them so.

That said, many do get beyond that and there are some incredibly creative Chinese. They are smart people anyway, so with the sheer numbers of people here, China certainly has the most geniuses in the world. I think you will see incredible innovation come out of here very soon; and it is probably already happening.

Now that is a very good post. Even better that you brought up the issue of the Han versus the rest of China.

TH

[EffectiveAnger]

I’ve lived in both China and Thailand and here are my pros and cons about each:

China

Cons

The weather was cold, much colder than Thailand and for most of the year it was gloomy (where I lived and traveled). The people were always loud and fighting in very crowded places and they seemed to be extremely stressed out, especially in Shanghai. There's very little English writing (i.e. signs, menus, etc.) and few people who speak English so there's a serious language barrier. In Thailand, there's always someone around who will try to speak English unless you go far from the cities. I found the level of deceitfulness and lack of transparency to be worse in China than any place I've ever been. The government is unfair when it comes to issuing visas to Americas as they charge us a lot more than any other people on earth. Last time I went, I had to pay about 5k baht just to get in. The food was unbearable for me. I found it tasteless, fried and full of grease. The only TV station in English was a nationalist pro-government, anti-western propaganda program that repeated its shows over and over all day, day after day and week after week.

Pros

The stores seem to have plenty of western food items and I enjoyed shopping at places like Metro. I like to cook and really enjoyed doing that over there. People do tend to be more objective (by comparison with other countries I’ve visited) when having discussions, but not all of them. I appreciated the level of modesty and sense of self-respect amongst the women. And they seemed to have their priorities in order.

Thailand

Cons

Crazy political instability! The general lack of intellectual conversations. People seem to be overly concerned about ‘face.’ There is a general lack of sincerity. One must always second guess everything and wonder about the intension. People seem to be overly concerned about the way they always look, while failing to make any effort for inner self-improvement. Every bad dead gets washed over by alms giving and temple visits. There is a lack of seriousness shown, especially when it comes to education, death and pain. Corruption affects every aspect of life here. There is little or no concern for animals as there are homeless pets roaming the streets everywhere and no government animal shelters. There is a strong class divide! Foreigners are charged more money than locals regardless of wealth. Farangs are the target of too many scams, especially at the airports.

Pros

Great weather all year round! It’s a wonderful place to be on vacation. People will generally go out of their way to help you with the smallest of things (with the exception of electronics). Everything is sabai sabai so not much of any fighting or yelling even when there’s heavy traffic. There’s plenty of stuff to do, so you don’t have to be bored.

[david96]

There is no doubt China has come a long way in the last 30 years. And this it gets top marks for.

But China (PRC) is still Communist. Not Democratic like Japan and India.

China is seen as a potential threat in the future. It intends to become a superpower.

The West is kowtowing to China. Eg, Australia is willing to sell uranium to China but not

to India.

China is seen as an alterative political and economic model to western capitalism.

And it may be right.

Japan started in 1868 and ended with WW2.

What will China do?

In todays media (Australia) report that Australia and the US are considering military

exercises with China.

A bit like the US and Great Britain having military exercises with Japan and Germany before WW2.

History tends to repeat itself.

I thought Communism was the enemy of Freedom and Democracy in the USA.

[ferd54]

The government is unfair when it comes to issuing visas to Americas as they charge us a lot more than any other people on earth.

They do that because its the same amount that the US charges foreigners who apply for a visa to the US; they are far nicer to me than my government is to foreign nationals who want to work in the US.

[EffectiveAnger]

The government is unfair when it comes to issuing visas to Americas as they charge us a lot more than any other people on earth.

They do that because its the same amount that the US charges foreigners who apply for a visa to the US; they are far nicer to me than my government is to foreign nationals who want to work in the US.

Why don't they do the same for other nationals? They don't have this same sort of tit-for-tat regulation with any other citizens, only Americans. And it's very strange how they dole out visas, a lot of people don't get one and there's no reason given. They just basically say, "we are not obligated to give anyone a visa or to give you a reason for our refusal either." I was never refused, but I saw quite a few people in line who were being refused.

The amount went up right after the American government sold weapons to Taiwan. So it was a knee-jerk response.

[JR Texas]

I’ve lived in both China and Thailand and here are my pros and cons about each:

China

Cons

The weather was cold, much colder than Thailand and for most of the year it was gloomy (where I lived and traveled). The people were always loud and fighting in very crowded places and they seemed to be extremely stressed out, especially in Shanghai. There's very little English writing (i.e. signs, menus, etc.) and few people who speak English so there's a serious language barrier. In Thailand, there's always someone around who will try to speak English unless you go far from the cities. I found the level of deceitfulness and lack of transparency to be worse in China than any place I've ever been. The government is unfair when it comes to issuing visas to Americas as they charge us a lot more than any other people on earth. Last time I went, I had to pay about 5k baht just to get in. The food was unbearable for me. I found it tasteless, fried and full of grease. The only TV station in English was a nationalist pro-government, anti-western propaganda program that repeated its shows over and over all day, day after day and week after week.

Pros

The stores seem to have plenty of western food items and I enjoyed shopping at places like Metro. I like to cook and really enjoyed doing that over there. People do tend to be more objective (by comparison with other countries I’ve visited) when having discussions, but not all of them. I appreciated the level of modesty and sense of self-respect amongst the women. And they seemed to have their priorities in order.

Thailand

Cons

Crazy political instability! The general lack of intellectual conversations. People seem to be overly concerned about ‘face.’ There is a general lack of sincerity. One must always second guess everything and wonder about the intension. People seem to be overly concerned about the way they always look, while failing to make any effort for inner self-improvement. Every bad dead gets washed over by alms giving and temple visits. There is a lack of seriousness shown, especially when it comes to education, death and pain. Corruption affects every aspect of life here. There is little or no concern for animals as there are homeless pets roaming the streets everywhere and no government animal shelters. There is a strong class divide! Foreigners are charged more money than locals regardless of wealth. Farangs are the target of too many scams, especially at the airports.

Pros

Great weather all year round! It’s a wonderful place to be on vacation. People will generally go out of their way to help you with the smallest of things (with the exception of electronics). Everything is sabai sabai so not much of any fighting or yelling even when there’s heavy traffic. There’s plenty of stuff to do, so you don’t have to be bored.

Fascinating to read your impressions........they are so different from mine.

To me, the weather is great in some places in China.......not too far north or south and it is very nice. Of course, in the far north it is very cold in the winter (I like seeing snow for a bit).

But you said about Thailand, "great weather all year round." Not in my view........living in Thailand is like living inside a mosquito infested hot house most of the year.

Maybe you are from Siberia and hate the cold.........no problem in China, just live down south.

People loud, fighting and stressed out? I will tell you the truth, I have never seen people fight and get aggressive in China like you are talking about. But I do see it almost daily in Thailand.........I think Thais are far more aggressive and prone to anger than most Chinese people. The language itself appears loud to our ears........maybe that is one reason for your impression.

Some person can cuss you out in French and it sounds wonderful. Some person can say something nice in Russian or German and it often sounds bad.

I have seen Chinese push and shove getting in line for food or trying to get on a bus.........almost always too crowded even though the transportation system is well developed.......I think Asian in general are a bit more aggressive than Westerners when it comes to these things.

I agree with you about English signs..........almost absent, but it is China, not the USA. That is why I always get a Chinese person to write down in Chinese where I want to go. There are more English signs in Thailand, but still not a lot.

Food........I think it is wonderful, probably some of the best food on the planet. My guess is that you were up north where the food can indeed be bad. There is a big difference between northern and southern Chinese food. Most of what "we" like is from the area around Hong Kong and the mainland area adjacent to it. Thai food, in comparison, is nothing special at all.........talk about dry, boring stuff............yuck!

TV..........absolutely, it is as bad or perhaps worse than Thai TV..........never watch it anyway.

I agree with what you said about having discussions with Chinese and women. I have a Thai wife but would much rather have a Chinese wife.

Stores.........same as Thailand........also lots of Western food places.

Agree with most of the negatives you mentioned about Thailand.

There are good and bad things about every country.

[EffectiveAnger]

There is no doubt China has come a long way in the last 30 years. And this it gets top marks for.

But China (PRC) is still Communist.

"According to their own analysts, Communist China has the largest disparity between urban rich and rural power in the world. Even in these heady days, this is something this Marxist-Leninst state will have to fix, considering China's 750-million-strong peasantry."

Lonely Planet.

_______________

So what's the point of being communist then when the whole theory was designed to shorten the gap between rich and poor and yet it's not working at all in China (the largest 'communist' country in the world).

[doggie888888]

I actually thought the level of English in Shanghai was Ok-ish for a non English speaking country. Most street names, subway signs are bilingual now...Chinese names are written in pinyin. Hua Hai Lu, Heng Shan Lu, Nanjing Lu etc. I was seldom lost and even if I were, so what...it's so safe in Shanghai.

There is even a fantastic SMS system where you key in the name of the place you want to go to (in pinyin) and it returns with the address in both chinese script for the driver and in pinyin for the non Chinese reader.

Although I know very little Chinese, I found the consistent "romanisaton" into a,b,c,d,e....very manageable. It would have been a nightmare for me if everything was in Chinese characters!!!

The other place which had a surprising (for me anyway) level of English is Guilin (where those towering limestone hills are)...almost every shopkeeper or restaurant, which looked so local, could find some staff person who could manage some basic English!!!

[ferd54]

To keep on the general theme of my original post, I would like to offer the following personal "case study":

* In Thailand, one of my functions was to write, edit and maintain a company website. The place was then purchased by a very rich Sino-Thai who put his 28-year-old daughter in charge as manager. She was uncomfortable with foreign men (perhaps all men), so hired and communicated (almost solely) with female Thais. A so-called IT specialist girl was hired who didn't know <deleted> all; she kept screwing the whole thing up royally. I tried patience at first, which was met with the prerequisite "Kaaa" and a smile -- and of course she had absolutely no intention of doing what I asked. The manager and this girl cooked up all kinds of crazy ideas on how to run a website and computer network. Due to my growing frustration, the manager stopped speaking with me entirely and the girl thought her status grew immeasurably; all the while she continued to trash the website and system. That's when I moved on to China.

In the three years since the website was down about half the time, the system was hacked and insulting and sexually explicit communication was sent out to individual customers and after two years of nonsense this girl was finally fired.

* When I got to China I was gun shy about local maintenance of a computer network, especially when I saw a rough older woman who showed up to get me onto the system the first time. I shouldn't have worried at all; the system is extremely well maintained, never down and extraordinarily fast compared to the speeds seen in Thailand. It's top notch.

And I never have to hear that fake "Kaaa".

Just a thumbnail sketch of why Thailand is such a mess. Face and personal agendas above all else. The level of incompetence really is astounding.

[JR Texas]

To keep on the general theme of my original post, I would like to offer the following personal "case study":

* In Thailand, one of my functions was to write, edit and maintain a company website. The place was then purchased by a very rich Sino-Thai who put his 28-year-old daughter in charge as manager. She was uncomfortable with foreign men (perhaps all men), so hired and communicated (almost solely) with female Thais. A so-called IT specialist girl was hired who didn't know <deleted> all; she kept screwing the whole thing up royally. I tried patience at first, which was met with the prerequisite "Kaaa" and a smile -- and of course she had absolutely no intention of doing what I asked. The manager and this girl cooked up all kinds of crazy ideas on how to run a website and computer network. Due to my growing frustration, the manager stopped speaking with me entirely and the girl thought her status grew immeasurably; all the while she continued to trash the website and system. That's when I moved on to China.

In the three years since the website was down about half the time, the system was hacked and insulting and sexually explicit communication was sent out to individual customers and after two years of nonsense this girl was finally fired.

* When I got to China I was gun shy about local maintenance of a computer network, especially when I saw a rough older woman who showed up to get me onto the system the first time. I shouldn't have worried at all; the system is extremely well maintained, never down and extraordinarily fast compared to the speeds seen in Thailand. It's top notch.

And I never have to hear that fake "Kaaa".

Just a thumbnail sketch of why Thailand is such a mess. Face and personal agendas above all else. The level of incompetence really is astounding.

Totally agree with this statement of yours w/ regard to Thailand: "The level of incompetence really is astounding." That fact is reflected in virtually every sector of the society..........and it is certainly the opposite of China where, in general terms, competency as opposed to incompetency is rewarded.

To the poster that pointed out the rural-urban divide in China..........yes, it is large because of the large numbers you are working with. But, the good news for China is that its economy continues to grow and the birth rate has been reduced (the rate of population growth is not nearly as great as in the past).

The challenge is that every economic step forward is taken away by another mouth to feed. It will take a long time for this to reverse itself, but it is happening. The middle class is growing.......the culture is changing.

[LaoPo]

One of the problems I have with the Han Chinese is their utter self-obsession; it is the hard-wired way they view the "outside world" and the many minorities within China's own borders.

Don't you think, speaking about Han Chinese, you're generalizing a bit ?

The Han Chinese make up some 92% of the total population in China or more than 1.200.000.000 people, out of the 1.338.000.000.

And these 1.2 Billion people are all utter self-obsessed ?

It's the problem with most people, whether from Western or Eastern countries, even from China.

Most have difficulties with comprehending how may people live on that piece of earth. If you've met Han Chinese it depends who you met and where and under what circumstances. Maybe you met the wrong people; wrong people are everywhere, also in China or your own country.

But to generalize about 1.2 Billion Han Chinese is a bit overdone, wouldn't you agree ?

edit:

BTW, I just read that 98% of Taiwan's population is Han Chinese and 75% in Singapore and about 20 percent of the entire (Chinese) global human population.

LaoPo

Edited September 4, 2009 by LaoPo

[ferd54]

But to generalize about 1.2 Billion Han Chinese is a bit overdone, wouldn't you agree ?

Well, you're right ... I haven't met and talked in depth with all 1.2 billion of them.

My impressions come after intensive, daily work in the media here, working with a wide range of veteran, new, young and older. I have had a direct hand in editing literally thousands of stories on subjects from business to the environment, history, culture, personalities, etc.

The protests surrounding the Olympic torch relay last year really brought this out. Even long-time husbands of Chinese here learned the hard way not to discuss the Dali Lama with their spouses; it caused incredible discord if it was brought up. To the Han Chinese, there is only one angle on the subject (theirs), and that was the case among the younger, more international group as well.

I have personally edited many, many stories that repeatedly refer to the "ethnic minority Miao people" or some other group. The story before edited will use this label up to six or eight times. I have asked why they cannot simple be called "the Miao people" and am told that the term is a direct translation from the Chinese and that is how they are always called. The writers are keen, as always, to learn why it might be better to do it another way, but are perplexed why I would get worked up over such a "trivial" detail. Such sensitivity seems outside their frame of reference.

So next time you meet a Chinese American, call them a person from the Chinese ethnic minority group in the US, or how about this: "Members of the ethnic minority Chinese people in San Francisco gathered today to celebrate...."

I just think it speaks to the mindset of the Han.

[LaoPo]

But to generalize about 1.2 Billion Han Chinese is a bit overdone, wouldn't you agree ?

Well, you're right ... I haven't met and talked in depth with all 1.2 billion of them.

My impressions come after intensive, daily work in the media here, working with a wide range of veteran, new, young and older. I have had a direct hand in editing literally thousands of stories on subjects from business to the environment, history, culture, personalities, etc.

The protests surrounding the Olympic torch relay last year really brought this out. Even long-time husbands of Chinese here learned the hard way not to discuss the Dali Lama with their spouses; it caused incredible discord if it was brought up. To the Han Chinese, there is only one angle on the subject (theirs), and that was the case among the younger, more international group as well.

I have personally edited many, many stories that repeatedly refer to the "ethnic minority Miao people" or some other group. The story before edited will use this label up to six or eight times. I have asked why they cannot simple be called "the Miao people" and am told that the term is a direct translation from the Chinese and that is how they are always called. The writers are keen, as always, to learn why it might be better to do it another way, but are perplexed why I would get worked up over such a "trivial" detail. Such sensitivity seems outside their frame of reference.

So next time you meet a Chinese American, call them a person from the Chinese ethnic minority group in the US, or how about this: "Members of the ethnic minority Chinese people in San Francisco gathered today to celebrate...."

I just think it speaks to the mindset of the Han.

Interesting story but I'm surprised that you yourself are so surprised about the attitude they have, especially when you are working, editing so many thousands of articles. I assume you edit English (Chinglish) to proper English, whether English/English or American English ? Or are you editing from Mandarin into English?

If you indeed "have had a direct hand in editing literally thousands of stories on subjects from business to the environment, history, culture, personalities, etc." you probably are very well aware that this kind of "business"/press/publications is extremely sensitive in China since most of it is controlled media.

The people who are discussing with you over (in your eyes) minor differences about ethnic minority groups do so because they're probably told/instructed so and are afraid to lose their jobs; some might even also belong to the Communist Party, which, as you know is considered an important pre in society. (different than what most in the west think)

Of course the Tibet/Dalai Lama issue was (and still is) a very sensitive topic in China; I'm always surprised that we westerners think that the only countries with propaganda are China, Russia, former Soviet Union states etc. We seem to forget that we have been brainwashed the same way in our so called "free" press about the same countries.

Since I was brought up I heard bad, very bad stories about the Russians and Soviets; I can still see the outcome of that propaganda when Russians are discussed on Thaivisa

I rarely see a friendly remark about Russians on TV...doesn't that say something or are we, -Farang- from western countries, better than they are ? Or do they perhaps have different social and culture behavior than we do ?

Interesting also that you mentioned San Francisco since that's exactly where my business partner and I built a tourist attraction back in the '80's (one of a kind in the US). Our local partner (asked by us to join because of his know-how) was a second generation Chinese; his father traveled as a dead poor boy of 11 yo by steamboat from China to San Francisco and "made it".

A very warm, kind and highly respected Chinese family in the Bay area, also in the "real" American society. He was playing tennis on a daily basis with one of the Levi's owners from the Haas-family; not exactly Chinese...

But indeed, they are still considered to be Chinese or Chinese Americans, the same as black people are considered to be (still) African Americans next to the Latin Americans.

Isn't it a bit odd, a bit strange that most people don't speak anymore about German Americans, Dutch Americans, Italian Americans, Polish Americans...I could go on...

or would it be because WE install those ethnic differences (Chinese, Black, Latin) or is it maybe because of their skin colours, eye-shape...or maybe both ?

Most people can see if someone is black, looks Asian or Latin, but it's a lot more difficult to point if it's an Italian, German, Polish or Belgian fellow isn't it?

Since China's roller coaster started moving some 25-30 years ago more and more people in the West became aware that something spectacular was happening but only few (percentage-wise) traveled to China, for holidays or business but the main factor, spreading around the world about China is something sad....FEAR!

Fear for the unknown.

Many people can "feel and touch" Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, USA, South America, Thailand, Indonesia even...but China is still a closed book for them and they fear it because they know so little about it.

It needs time.

LaoPo

[j_cheung]

But to generalize about 1.2 Billion Han Chinese is a bit overdone, wouldn't you agree ?

I have personally edited many, many stories that repeatedly refer to the "ethnic minority Miao people" or some other group. The story before edited will use this label up to six or eight times. I have asked why they cannot simple be called "the Miao people" and am told that the term is a direct translation from the Chinese and that is how they are always called. The writers are keen, as always, to learn why it might be better to do it another way, but are perplexed why I would get worked up over such a "trivial" detail. Such sensitivity seems outside their frame of reference.

So next time you meet a Chinese American, call them a person from the Chinese ethnic minority group in the US, or how about this: "Members of the ethnic minority Chinese people in San Francisco gathered today to celebrate...."

I just think it speaks to the mindset of the Han.

Excellent insights over the apparent naivety and broad brushstrokes of assumption that many Chinese make of others today. However, I have to say that could be reflected upon how the Europeans once thought of the people who they had colonized at an earlier age too.

What really constitute a "Chinese"? Is it just the inevitable that all 'ethnic minorities' eventually become just another Han (or "white") wannabe or something more than that. Would one's country be much more bountiful in wisdom & wealth if all citizens equally little and big contribute rather than merely being imposed by the majority from above? If we take that the ancient Chinese stated that the people of 中原 'zhongyuan' only resided along banks of the Yellow river, there wouldn't be the richness and breath of diversity from the peoples on the Yangtze and Pearl rivers and Sichuan plains throughout its long civilization.

As I recall there are 5 stars on that flag - not just one big one. It is my sincerest hope that the young eventually realize this.

As for your 'recommendation, however, belittling Americans or other citizens of Chinese descent over this seems most inappropriate. Having experienced similar slights prior to & during the civil rights movement, we were deeply saddened but perhaps not surprised over the manner in which many minorities were roughly handled by certain mainland authorities and their commercial proxies.

[on-on]

People will generally go out of their way to help you with the smallest of things (with the exception of electronics).

For some reason this observation is cracking me up. Like you walked around Thailand with a broken iPod for a year asking for help or some similar image.

Why don't they do the same for other nationals? They don't have this same sort of tit-for-tat regulation with any other citizens, only Americans.

They went up after our government raised visa fees and imposed restrictions on them after 9/11. I researched this because I had visited not too long after it all happened and kept finding conflicting prices online. Brazil, I believe, did the same thing. Basically, it's their way of telling us they're not a shit country to be trifled with and they expect the same treatment we would extend to other world powers. Whether you agree with their point of view, it was definitely provoked. There's information about this online if you Google around. It's a well-worn topic.

Here's the official announcement from the Chinese Embassy in DC:

Whereas the U.S. Embassy and Consulates General in China raised U.S. visa fee to $100 as from November 1, 2002, the Chinese Embassy and Consulates General in the United States are instructed to adjust the Chinese visa fee for U.S. citizens in light of reciprocity. The new rates are as follows, and will take effect as of May 1, 2003.

Single entry visa: $50

Double entry visa: $75

Multiple entry visa for six months: $100 Multiple entry visa for twelve months: $150

After 9/11 and since the outbreak of U.S.-Iraq War, strengthening national security has become an important goal and task of every country. Out of security concern, the Chinese Embassy and Consulates General in United States will cease, on and from May 1, 2003, mail ( including express delivery) service for application of Chinese visas. Applicants are required to come to the visa office for visa application. If an applicant cannot come personally, he/she may entrust a relative or friend or travel/visa agent to come to the visa office for application process.

Embassy of the P.R.C. in The United States of America

April 10, 2003

You can taste the dripping sarcasm.

[LaoPo]

Here's the official announcement from the Chinese Embassy in DC:

Whereas the U.S. Embassy and Consulates General in China raised U.S. visa fee to $100 as from November 1, 2002, the Chinese Embassy and Consulates General in the United States are instructed to adjust the Chinese visa fee for U.S. citizens in light of reciprocity. The new rates are as follows, and will take effect as of May 1, 2003.

Single entry visa: $50

Double entry visa: $75

Multiple entry visa for six months: $100 Multiple entry visa for twelve months: $150

After 9/11 and since the outbreak of U.S.-Iraq War, strengthening national security has become an important goal and task of every country. Out of security concern, the Chinese Embassy and Consulates General in United States will cease, on and from May 1, 2003, mail ( including express delivery) service for application of Chinese visas. Applicants are required to come to the visa office for visa application. If an applicant cannot come personally, he/she may entrust a relative or friend or travel/visa agent to come to the visa office for application process.

Embassy of the P.R.C. in The United States of America

April 10, 2003

You can taste the dripping sarcasm.

What are you trying to say...?...dripping SARCASM....? One can also implement this as humor. If those fees are still the same, they kept the VISA fees the same for 6 years, since 2003!

And, a visa for the US is double the amount. Why ?

BTW, the VISA fees for China are the same in my own country in Europe as they are for the US.

LaoPo

[ferd54]

As I recall there are 5 stars on that flag - not just one big one.

Yes, that's curious in that minority group status is incessantly reinforced. It would be interesting to know exactly why the starts were included. But then the ruling party calls itself Communist, but China is far from a worker's paradise and even bans trade unions. So what's in a name or on a flag can well be just theater.

[manjara]

Very interesting topic!

I am married to a Thai woman and lived in Bangkok for over 6 years (now in Turkey), my brother is married to a Chinese woman and lives in Tianjin (since 2002).

My impressions are that while Thailand is a nation of children (petulant, moody, fun-loving, lacking in forward-planning and ability to handle any kind of responsibility, ignorant - not the same as stupid!), China is a nation of adults (serious, very conscious of their positions/fashion, meticulous planners, regimented and industrious, intelligent).

There are times when I love the Thai attitude, and times when it drives me mad. I often feel like I'm the only responsible person in my entire family and have to ration money much like I ration sweets for the kids. I would love to be able to have conversations about the future with my wife, but anything requiring effort/sacrifice in the current moment is just not on and the span of attention when talking about 'serious' things is no longer than our 5 year old daughter.

My brother has none of these issues and his wife is actively doing financial planning, saving for second properties, pensions etc.

Of course it's a complete generalisation, but the general pattern is that way. I know some thais that are capable, but they are few and far between.

As far as food goes, there is good chinese and good thai. I like hot chilli, so thai food gets my vote, but I love chinese too.

Thailand will have to change eventually, or they will slide further into obscurity, as Vietnam. Cambodia and potentially even Myanmar start to emerge

[zink]

The government is unfair when it comes to issuing visas to Americas as they charge us a lot more than any other people on earth.

They do that because its the same amount that the US charges foreigners who apply for a visa to the US; they are far nicer to me than my government is to foreign nationals who want to work in the US.

Why don't they do the same for other nationals? They don't have this same sort of tit-for-tat regulation with any other citizens, only Americans. And it's very strange how they dole out visas, a lot of people don't get one and there's no reason given. They just basically say, "we are not obligated to give anyone a visa or to give you a reason for our refusal either." I was never refused, but I saw quite a few people in line who were being refused.

The amount went up right after the American government sold weapons to Taiwan. So it was a knee-jerk response.

Yes they do. It's not limited just to US.

[JR Texas]

Very interesting topic!

I am married to a Thai woman and lived in Bangkok for over 6 years (now in Turkey), my brother is married to a Chinese woman and lives in Tianjin (since 2002).

My impressions are that while Thailand is a nation of children (petulant, moody, fun-loving, lacking in forward-planning and ability to handle any kind of responsibility, ignorant - not the same as stupid!), China is a nation of adults (serious, very conscious of their positions/fashion, meticulous planners, regimented and industrious, intelligent).

There are times when I love the Thai attitude, and times when it drives me mad. I often feel like I'm the only responsible person in my entire family and have to ration money much like I ration sweets for the kids. I would love to be able to have conversations about the future with my wife, but anything requiring effort/sacrifice in the current moment is just not on and the span of attention when talking about 'serious' things is no longer than our 5 year old daughter.

My brother has none of these issues and his wife is actively doing financial planning, saving for second properties, pensions etc.

Of course it's a complete generalisation, but the general pattern is that way. I know some thais that are capable, but they are few and far between.

As far as food goes, there is good chinese and good thai. I like hot chilli, so thai food gets my vote, but I love chinese too.

Thailand will have to change eventually, or they will slide further into obscurity, as Vietnam. Cambodia and potentially even Myanmar start to emerge

Good post..........interesting to think about the child vs adult analogy. I think when you live in Thailand, you miss the "adult." When you live in China, you miss the "child."

But I can't believe any person would prefer Thai food over Chinese food (which has many dishes very similar to Thai food and more).

You are absolutely correct about Thailand needing to change in order to avoid sliding into obscurity.....in particular Vietnam and Cambodia are growing at a fierce pace........but so is Malaysia.

Thailand is falling way behind..........now there is a new "crackdown" on tourists w/ visas in Thailand..........what total idiots.

[carmine]

After more than a decade in Thailand I took a job in Beijing about three years ago. I actually like it better in China. I have written up some of the differences for those who might be curious. For those who are not, I apologize for the length and suggest you read another topic.

Some pros and cons:

Public Transport:

Beijing transport is now top-class, with a subway, bus and taxi system that can rank with any of the best in the world. Bus and subway so cheap they are almost free. Taxis are everywhere, well-regulated and very affordable. Motorcycles are banned from the city. Traffic cameras everywhere, so no one runs red lights. Traffic is very bad at certain times and places, but nowhere near that of many Thai cities. There is actual enforcement, so tickets are issued and they bite hard enough to really hurt. If you want a car, many affordable options because China makes so many cars (it's actually the largest car market in the world now).

Noise:

Beijing is much more quiet. Large dogs are banned, and the one little dog permitted per family is so beloved it is never thrown out onto the street, so there are no packs of feral dogs barking and snarling at night. And while the Chinese are extremely loud people, I have never been disturbed at my home by a neighbor's noise. No two-stroke bikes. They do honk the car horn excessively, unlike Thailand. Construction noise can be a problem, but that too is well-regulated so it doesn't last all night, etc.

Girlfriend:

China's one-child policy has resulted a generation of little princesses that are so self-absorbed that studies say many could meet the definition of pathological narcissism; they will freely tell you how cute, lovely, clever, etc. (all at once) they are, when they might be nothing of the sort, but they truly believe it. They have been thoroughly spoiled by two sets of grandparents and their own parents. Until they learn by hard experience, they expect that other people are there to serve them.

I met a girl much younger than me and we began dating, and she didn't seem to realize that there were two people involved. After enough of her selfish behavior, I broke it off. A few months later we started seeing each other again – with me far more wary – and she seems to have changed. Now we have something closer to a normal give-and-take relationship. It's just no one ever set boundaries for her before. The one-child policy has had a huge negative social impact, but maybe there was no choice given the population and relative poverty of the nation, especially when it was enacted.

That said, she is in many ways very reliable and conscientious. After so many years in Thailand I thought she was lying to me about how she spent her time, but when it all played out, I was wrong, but luckily I hadn't really accused her of seeing another guy. I still have a hard time trusting people here after my years in Thailand and all the disappointing experiences I had trying to find trustworthy mates/friends.

(Incidentally, she is beautiful, and there indeed are a lot of beautiful women here. As well, they seemed to be better educated and hard-working).

I also have a couple of Chinese guys who are my friends and I like and respect them. I never came remotely close to having a Thai guy as my true friend.

Cost of living

Beijing is quite a bit more expensive than Thailand, but the pay and quality of life are far superior. On balance, a better deal.

Food

Thailand has it hands down. North Chinese cooking is just loaded with oil – in fact they call it "edible oil" and it is a significant ingredient in many dishes. You see old people hauling five-gallon containers of the stuff home all the time. But Thai food beats about any cuisine. The fresh vegetables in China are far superior and the beef as good as the U.S. I've basically gone back to a beef diet. Because this is a temperate climate, vegetables and fruit grow more slowly and seem much richer as a result. As well, parts of China have natural black soil as good as Canada, U.S. and the Ukraine.

Housing

My apartment in Beijing has central heating, air conditioning and hot water. Broadband internet is available everywhere. All appliances, etc. work fine and there has never been a power cut.

Weather

The work they did for the Olympics really did improve things greatly. BKK and Chiang Mai are far more polluted in my opinion. We are now going into the autumn season with cool nights and clear skies. In winter it can get damned cold, especially the wind howling in from Mongolia and Siberia, but I have found that I have far more energy and enjoy wearing heavy clothes (at least as the cold weather begins). It can get brutal, however, and one is thankful to see the first buds of spring. On balance, I think I prefer four seasons. In Thailand it's hot, rainy and hot, and killer hot.

Police

No drunk policemen with guns here. In fact, one rarely sees a uniformed policeman, but I understand there are undercover police everywhere. Extremely safe place. Women go about their business at all times without much concern for personal safety. I'm too old for such nonsense, but I have heard that expat vs Chinese fights do occasionally happen in the Sanlitun area – the only place I've seen here that reminds me of the kind of tourist ghettos one sees in Thailand – between drunks. It seems a similar tale: 10 Chinese guys come to the aid of their friend. Only here, the foreigner is quickly deported and that's the end of the story.

Government

Visa: Once you receive a visa you do not have to keep checking in. In my case I have a one-year working visa which required a medical check on blood, TB, blood pressure and basic heart EKG. Then you have to register with the police in the city district, then you're done. You can also leave and re-enter without needing a re-entry stamp.

Of course one is well aware of the Big Brother approach to government, but in my life, the only real impact so far is the annoying habit of blocking internet sites. But most users – expat and Chinese – are proficient in using a proxy server and simply go around the firewall. I decided I wouldn't try to tell the Chinese how to run China, so the fact there is no democracy hasn't ruined my life. You who live in Thailand live with a government dominated by godfathers, the elite and all the rest that I can't go into. Is that better than the Chinese approach? All this red, yellow and whatever shirt stuff started as I was leaving Thailand and I was very ready to bid it farewell.

Biggest upsides in China:

Infrastructure is vastly superior and much more opportunity. More reliable relationships.

Biggest downsides:

Far too many people, far too many people who are extremely loud, and a period of very cold weather.

Thanks for a very informative post. I have no wish to commit my longterm future to Thailand but definately want to remain in this region....just not here!! Maybe this is an option

[on-on]

What are you trying to say...?...dripping SARCASM....? One can also implement this as humor. If those fees are still the same, they kept the VISA fees the same for 6 years, since 2003!

And, a visa for the US is double the amount. Why ?

BTW, the VISA fees for China are the same in my own country in Europe as they are for the US.

LaoPo

Unfortunately I can't understand the context or meaning of any of your comments, but as far as what the Chinese post you quoted means, you know, res ipsa loquitur. "You raised this, so we're raising that."

[LaoPo]

What are you trying to say...?...dripping SARCASM....? One can also implement this as humor. If those fees are still the same, they kept the VISA fees the same for 6 years, since 2003!

And, a visa for the US is double the amount. Why ?

BTW, the VISA fees for China are the same in my own country in Europe as they are for the US.

LaoPo

Unfortunately I can't understand the context or meaning of any of your comments, but as far as what the Chinese post you quoted means, you know, res ipsa loquitur. "You raised this, so we're raising that."

That's mutual; why use Latin if "the thing itself speaks" or: Res ipsa loquitur. Not: "You raised this, so we're raising that."

sigh

LaoPo

[FarangForce5]

Very interesting thread with lots of different view points. I have never personally visited China (yet) but I know a lot of close friends and business associates who have spent many years in almost every corner of China. About 90% prefer Thailand over China, hands-down. The main complaints they have about China are similar to the ones Im reading here, specifically the loud people and overcrowding, and that people are very rude (or at least less friendly) compared to Thailand. I don't want to hear anyone try and tell me that Thais are only friendly to us because they want something from us. If you really believe that then I suggest you start spending more time away from the go-go bars, cause you're clearly making no effort to experience the real side of this country and the 98% of the people it's comprised of...

[LaoPo]

Very interesting thread with lots of different view points. I have never personally visited China (yet) but I know a lot of close friends and business associates who have spent many years in almost every corner of China. About 90% prefer Thailand over China, hands-down. The main complaints they have about China are similar to the ones Im reading here, specifically the loud people and overcrowding, and that people are very rude (or at least less friendly) compared to Thailand. I don't want to hear anyone try and tell me that Thais are only friendly to us because they want something from us. If you really believe that then I suggest you start spending more time away from the go-go bars, cause you're clearly making no effort to experience the real side of this country and the 98% of the people it's comprised of...

Funny you say that as I never said so but I know you weren't addressing this to me. I suggest you have a look in China for yourself as most people in China are equally friendly as Thai people are.

I've never encountered rude or unfriendly people but I'm just a single human being but one who has been coming to Thailand as well as China for over 30 years.

If 90% of your friends prefer Thailand over China I think they're quite close but you cannot compare the two countries.

Knowing both countries quite well I think doing business in China is preferred over LOS but living in Thailand is preferred over China; it depends who, what, where, family...etc.

LaoPo

[on-on]

That's mutual; why use Latin if "the thing itself speaks" or: Res ipsa loquitur. Not: "You raised this, so we're raising that."

sighLaoPo

No, it's not mutual, because you translated the Latin and understood the post - ergo it was completely clear to you. I understand you're a prolific and much-appreciated poster here for good reason, but I don't particularly appreciate your passive aggressive posts and inability to speak directly and in clear English. I still have no idea what about the original post was confusing to you. Lest this turn into a typical forum penis measuring contest, why don't you just state clearly what was of concern so that I can address it? I was not attacking you, I was sincerely noting my confusion because your English was poorly worded and because the plethora of emoticons made it difficult to ascertain your exact meaning (as opposed to irony or sarcasm). I'd be happy to answer if I knew what you were attacking and/or confused by. As I said, the quotation in the original post stands for itself. If you have concerns or disagreements you require clarifications for, state them clearly.

Edited September 12, 2009 by on-on

[LaoPo]

That's mutual; why use Latin if "the thing itself speaks" or: Res ipsa loquitur. Not: "You raised this, so we're raising that."

sighLaoPo

No, it's not mutual, because you translated the Latin and understood the post - ergo it was completely clear to you. I understand you're a prolific and much-appreciated poster here for good reason, but I don't particularly appreciate your passive aggressive posts and inability to speak directly and in clear English. I still have no idea what about the original post was confusing to you. Lest this turn into a typical forum penis measuring contest, why don't you just state clearly what was of concern so that I can address it? I was not attacking you, I was sincerely noting my confusion because your English was poorly worded and because the plethora of emoticons made it difficult to ascertain your exact meaning (as opposed to irony or sarcasm). I'd be happy to answer if I knew what you were attacking and/or confused by. As I said, the quotation in the original post stands for itself. If you have concerns or disagreements you require clarifications for, state them clearly.

..I beg your pardon ?

I am and was absolutely not passive aggressive as you wrote and maybe you misunderstood my message completely (see below).

I suppose we write/speak a different kind of English and since my mother tongue isn't English I have to steer my small "English" boat with the paddles I have; maybe they're shorter than yours and if so, so be it.

But my boat always arrive although below my avatar it says: "Life is about the journey not arrival".

I always try to do my best but this is the first time I have complaints about my English but there must be a first time for everything I suppose.

Thank you for commenting that my English was poorly worded; I have to work much harder on my English. You better let me know which English tongue you were born with. Maybe you can help me.

But if you click on the link below, where my answer is, you might want to see what I meant:

The China Embassy message says: "".....to adjust the Chinese visa fee for U.S. citizens in light of reciprocity."

......to which I commented: ""One can also implement this as humor. ""

I wrote so because you wrote: ""You can taste the dripping sarcasm.""

Your world....my world ?

I wrote with a sense of humor; you saw sarcasm...as you saw bad things in my message; passive aggressiveness...poor English.

Maybe you're watching too many spooky movies ?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Living-China...63#entry3002463

LaoPo

[Svenn]

Girlfriend:

China's one-child policy has resulted a generation of little princesses that are so self-absorbed that studies say many could meet the definition of pathological narcissism; they will freely tell you how cute, lovely, clever, etc. (all at once) they are, when they might be nothing of the sort, but they truly believe it. They have been thoroughly spoiled by two sets of grandparents and their own parents. Until they learn by hard experience, they expect that other people are there to serve them.

Absolutely true. I talked to several university professors at a top uni in Beijing and they all were complaining about how all the students come to school the first day thinking they are 'kings'... because their parents and family have always smothered and spoiled them. Incidentally, I believe that man-child selfishness explains a lot of the self-absorbed Chinese social behavior Westerners despise. Unfortunately, it causes many new students to commit suicide, because they realize they are no longer 'the king' of their little world.

[LaoPo]

Girlfriend:

China's one-child policy has resulted a generation of little princesses that are so self-absorbed that studies say many could meet the definition of pathological narcissism; they will freely tell you how cute, lovely, clever, etc. (all at once) they are, when they might be nothing of the sort, but they truly believe it. They have been thoroughly spoiled by two sets of grandparents and their own parents. Until they learn by hard experience, they expect that other people are there to serve them.

Absolutely true. I talked to several university professors at a top uni in Beijing and they all were complaining about how all the students come to school the first day thinking they are 'kings'... because their parents and family have always smothered and spoiled them. Incidentally, I believe that man-child selfishness explains a lot of the self-absorbed Chinese social behavior Westerners despise. Unfortunately, it causes many new students to commit suicide, because they realize they are no longer 'the king' of their little world.

...Generalizing.... before the summer of 2009 started, 6 million Chinese students graduated.....6 million!

A few weeks ago 10 millions newbies did exams for any of the many universities; quite a few of them will not make it; the best brains will succeed and go on.

Those exams are not for pussies I tell you. It extremely harsh to get access to a university at all in China and let me tell you that there's no place for queens or kings.

You chaps are generalizing.

LaoPo

[ferd54]

Very interesting thread with lots of different view points. I have never personally visited China (yet) but I know a lot of close friends and business associates who have spent many years in almost every corner of China. About 90% prefer Thailand over China, hands-down. The main complaints they have about China are similar to the ones Im reading here, specifically the loud people and overcrowding, and that people are very rude (or at least less friendly) compared to Thailand. I don't want to hear anyone try and tell me that Thais are only friendly to us because they want something from us. If you really believe that then I suggest you start spending more time away from the go-go bars, cause you're clearly making no effort to experience the real side of this country and the 98% of the people it's comprised of...

I have found the Chinese to be very friendly if you can break through the cultural and language barriers, very friendly indeed.

But the average on-the-street experience can be appalling. After you get battered on the sidewalk by people just blindly charging around, you can go into a shop where people are shouting at the top of their lungs; after your purchase you might receive your change in wadded-up bills that are tossed on the counter along with a plastic bag thrown own top for you to pack you own goods, which is probably for the best if you have bought anything like bread or pastries, because those too will be battered and smashed and placed at the bottom, of course.

They don't mean to be rude; that's just how they behave. Of course the majority don't shout all the time and spit and crash into you, but the ones that do certainly get your attention and can overwhelm the experience.

But for long-term relationships, I find them to be far more reliable than Thais. Everything is on the surface in Thailand, all the smiles and "gentle" behavior. Underneath that is an entirely different reality. For me personally, I would rather deal with a bearcat in my face than a snake behind my back.