Foreigner-funded Land Ownership

[cmdream]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

[iainiain101]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

The article states "Foreigner" funded land, not 'Farang'.

Iain

[cmdream]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

The article states "Foreigner" funded land, not 'Farang'.

Iain

Sorry, I did not know there was a difference. Please explain.

[iainiain101]

Well I have been told an Asian from say Singapore or China is not 'Farang', but they are a "Foreigner" in Thailand.

Iain

Edited August 30, 2009 by iainiain101

[sassienie]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

How can it be a land grab, if the land was obtained illegally in the first place. More like a land give back.

When you say; cover your asses, do you mean try and hide the fact that the land is illegally owned, or ensure everything is completely legit?

I can see a purge happening against those who flaunt the laws of Thailand.

The fact is, the law is the law however much one doesn’t agree with it or hope the authorities turn a blind eye.

If the government decides to sequester real estate or land illegally owned by behind the scenes foreigners, than there is no point in moaning about it. Don’t take the risk in the first place or conduct your business 100% legally in Thailand as imposed by Thai law.

Edited August 30, 2009 by sassienie

[IanForbes]

I have to agree with you, Sassienie. I wish we had a bit more of Thailand's regulations in Canada. New Zealand was wise in it's laws in regards to foreign ownership of land and public access. Certain rich Americans wanted to buy up fishing rights along some famous rivers and were not allowed to do so.

[Donnyboy]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

How can it be a land grab, if the land was obtained illegally in the first place. More like a land give back.

When you say; cover your asses, do you mean try and hide the fact that the land is illegally owned, or ensure everything is completely legit?

I can see a purge happening against those who flaunt the laws of Thailand.

The fact is, the law is the law however much one doesn't agree with it or hope the authorities turn a blind eye.

If the government decides to sequester real estate or land illegally owned by behind the scenes foreigners, than there is no point in moaning about it. Don't take the risk in the first place or conduct your business 100% legally in Thailand as imposed by Thai law.

dont think it will be a problem unless you are sitting on a sizeable plot

[elektrified]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

How can it be a land grab, if the land was obtained illegally in the first place. More like a land give back.

When you say; cover your asses, do you mean try and hide the fact that the land is illegally owned, or ensure everything is completely legit?

I can see a purge happening against those who flaunt the laws of Thailand.

The fact is, the law is the law however much one doesn't agree with it or hope the authorities turn a blind eye.

If the government decides to sequester real estate or land illegally owned by behind the scenes foreigners, than there is no point in moaning about it. Don't take the risk in the first place or conduct your business 100% legally in Thailand as imposed by Thai law.

I agree with that 100%.

[Donnyboy]

I have to agree with you, Sassienie. I wish we had a bit more of Thailand's regulations in Canada. New Zealand was wise in it's laws in regards to foreign ownership of land and public access. Certain rich Americans wanted to buy up fishing rights along some famous rivers and were not allowed to do so.

Shania Twain bought up 60,000 acres in Wanaka, NZ awhile back. I think it was lease hold thou. Wanaka is a beautiful spot.

[wedders]

I'm a bit confused by this development. Although I agree 100% that speculators who buy up swathes of land in their wives' names are circumventing the law and this should be stamped on, what about the situation where the farang half of a couple provides all the funds to buy a house and the small patch of land it sits on, and lives there permanently.

Not my situation - I've always been wary of the company etc loopholes in buying property in Thailand, and have rented instead. Still, I am getting married, and buying a place somewhere together, in my wife's name because that's the law, was something I might have considered eventually. Does this new law provide an exemption for genuine cases, ie couples buying and living in a house with a small piece of land?

[Rasseru]

The article states "Foreigner" funded land, not 'Farang'.

Iain

Sorry, I did not know there was a difference. Please explain.

Farang are, more or less, just 'white' or 'Caucasian' foreigners. Foreigners are the whole lot.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Rasseru

[dru2]

My first post - but after more than 20 years residence in Thailand I'm still surprised how often the term 'Farang' is misunderstood.

A Farang is not just any 'foreigner' (foreigners are collectively 'khon tang prathet' = 'people from outside the country'), but is always a Caucasian Westerner. The term probably originates from the Arabic farangee, perhaps before that from the old medieaval French term 'Frank').

By contrast, South Asians and Middle Easterners are (Khon) Khaek, Chinese are (Khon) Jin, Japanese are (Khon) Yipun, Koreans are (Khon) Kaoree and so on. There are rude names too - certainly for Chinese (Jek) and Japanese (Yun), but not, as far as I am aware, for Westerners. Of course, I may be wrong here!

It's not surprising that the term 'Farang' is so often misunderstood as just meaning 'foreigner'. Yesterday's Bangkok Post ran a rather shallow article by a Danish-Korean woman who describes herself as a 'Farang Asian', and in the same article she objects to being approached by 'Farang Indians'. Of course, the Bangkok Post's proof readers are notoriously inept, but still, the fact remains, Farang means - exclusively - white Westerner.

Dru

[iainiain101]

I'm a bit confused by this development. Although I agree 100% that speculators who buy up swathes of land in their wives' names are circumventing the law and this should be stamped on, what about the situation where the farang half of a couple provides all the funds to buy a house and the small patch of land it sits on, and lives there permanently.

Not my situation - I've always been wary of the company etc loopholes in buying property in Thailand, and have rented instead. Still, I am getting married, and buying a place somewhere together, in my wife's name because that's the law, was something I might have considered eventually. Does this new law provide an exemption for genuine cases, ie couples buying and living in a house with a small piece of land?

This is not a new law.

As I understand it when you buy a house you will have to sign a statement saying that the house is 100% your wifes. Part of the issue seems to be that people divorce and foreigners have challenged the ownership in Thai courts and won. Basically what is yours before you married is yours after you divorce (in Thailand), and it is not too difficult to prove the Mrs did not have the money before you married, foreign bank transfer detail seems to do the trick.

There also seems to be some resentment that Thai spouses receive cash from us that is not taxed in Thailand as income. (this is purely a personal observation based on conversations with various bank officials)

To be honest renting is the probably the safest option. This of course can lead to arguments as your spouse has been indocrinated from birth to believe:

1. that they must own property, renting is throwing money away.

2. Thailand is for Thais, no foreign ownnership!!!

Catch 42.

Iain

[alfieconn]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

na

Edited August 31, 2009 by alfieconn

[personchester]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

The above phraseology .... does not make much sense, i.e. "land ownership by foreigners married to Thais", or "Farangs who bought land in their wife's name"... foreigners cannot own land here so they can't buy it, the Thai wife owns the land, and it is her name that is on the Chanot not the name of the foreign husband, she may no doubt have received the money from him but it was her that bought the land not the foreign husband, the question that legally arises is "where did she get the money from" if it was her husband and that is/was illegal then one has to ask why did the land office proceed with the purchase without asking for details of the funding, this will be a strong defense, it is said that the above matter is still in legislature that seems to indicate that it is a new insertion into the property law and, since laws cannot be enforced retrospectively past transactions will not cause problems.

Moreover, land ownership using a Thai nominee is illegal in Thailand, thus it is impossible for a foreigner to legally own land here.

There may of course be arrangements whereby the Thai land owner (wife or whoever) agrees to return the money should the land/property be sold, but this is entirely a private arrangement.

Thailand should regard the marriage of a Thai woman to a foreigner who provides funds to her so that she can buy land in her name as a lottery win, with no legal problems.

[Gonsalviz]

Isn't there somewhere in the rules about a visa extension that you can or must pay an income to the Thai spouse whereupon she pays taxes on this money.

Isn't this money hers to do with as she pleases? i.e. purchase land?

[hml367]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

The above phraseology .... does not make much sense, i.e. "land ownership by foreigners married to Thais", or "Farangs who bought land in their wife's name"... foreigners cannot own land here so they can't buy it, the Thai wife owns the land, and it is her name that is on the Chanot not the name of the foreign husband, she may no doubt have received the money from him but it was her that bought the land not the foreign husband, the question that legally arises is "where did she get the money from" if it was her husband and that is/was illegal then one has to ask why did the land office proceed with the purchase without asking for details of the funding, this will be a strong defense, it is said that the above matter is still in legislature that seems to indicate that it is a new insertion into the property law and, since laws cannot be enforced retrospectively past transactions will not cause problems.

Moreover, land ownership using a Thai nominee is illegal in Thailand, thus it is impossible for a foreigner to legally own land here.

There may of course be arrangements whereby the Thai land owner (wife or whoever) agrees to return the money should the land/property be sold, but this is entirely a private arrangement.

Thailand should regard the marriage of a Thai woman to a foreigner who provides funds to her so that she can buy land in her name as a lottery win, with no legal problems.

A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves.

Does that help it make more sense?

And I believe the issue that the law is trying to affect is the control of the land.

MSPain

Edited August 31, 2009 by hml367

[alant]

simply protectionism, nothing more nothing less

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I have a different take from most of you, different from the camp that says 'you can't/shouldn't own land anyway so quit whining' and also different from the camp that says 'my wife and I should be able to own a small plot or a house and live on it'. This is because it isn't about you, it's about her.

My point is that the foreign party completely doesn't matter in any of this, it's the rights of Thai women that are under threat. In the Bad Old Days, Thai women who were married to foreigners were prevented from legally owning land! So by marrying a foreigner, they lost some of their constitutional rights. Even more peculiar, this de facto applied selectively to Thai women marrying a foreign man, and not to Thai men marrying a foreign woman, making it a sexist situation as well.

Happily this situation ended over a decade ago.

The current efforts that I see going on to me represent a move back to the Bad Old Days: Any Thai woman who wants to own land and who happens to be married to a foreigner will now have to fight for her right to own property, and demonstrate how she obtained the money. This INCLUDES cases where the Thai woman actually does have money herself, or for example sells family land to purchase another plot: it will now all be under government/legal scrutiny because of the person she chose to marry.

My personal situation is pretty similar to the above, except that we had the good sense not to register any marriage exactly for the reason that we didn't trust the Thai government to not go back on the 1997 Constitution which cemented equal rights for Thai women. Since then we've of course seen that constitution shredded in a military coup, and in return got something doctored to cater to particular powers-that-be. And they might just get away with putting extra scrutiny on business deals by women, who may have to end up proving that the're not married to a foreigner and/or demonstrate where the money came from.

Edited August 31, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Isn't there somewhere in the rules about a visa extension that you can or must pay an income to the Thai spouse whereupon she pays taxes on this money.

No.

Isn't this money hers to do with as she pleases? i.e. purchase land?

As a free Thai citizen, ANY Thai has the right to do with their money as he/she pleases, provided they obtained that money legally, as income, a gift, an inheritance, a lottery win or otherwise. Current efforts probably don't even sync with the mess that currently passes for a constitution.

[hml367]

Isn't there somewhere in the rules about a visa extension that you can or must pay an income to the Thai spouse whereupon she pays taxes on this money.

No.

Isn't this money hers to do with as she pleases? i.e. purchase land?

As a free Thai citizen, ANY Thai has the right to do with their money as he/she pleases, provided they obtained that money legally, as income, a gift, an inheritance, a lottery win or otherwise. Current efforts probably don't even sync with the mess that currently passes for a constitution.

Hello Mr. Kwai.

How is it you know the Thai legalities in this? Just wondering.

MSPain

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> How is it you know the Thai legalities in this? Just wondering.

A former military government printed millions of booklets of the new constitution. We read it, before using it as toilet paper.

Edited August 31, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[rethaired]

My first post - but after more than 20 years residence in Thailand I'm still surprised how often the term 'Farang' is misunderstood.

A Farang is not just any 'foreigner' (foreigners are collectively 'khon tang prathet' = 'people from outside the country'), but is always a Caucasian Westerner. The term probably originates from the Arabic farangee, perhaps before that from the old medieaval French term 'Frank').

By contrast, South Asians and Middle Easterners are (Khon) Khaek, Chinese are (Khon) Jin, Japanese are (Khon) Yipun, Koreans are (Khon) Kaoree and so on. There are rude names too - certainly for Chinese (Jek) and Japanese (Yun), but not, as far as I am aware, for Westerners. Of course, I may be wrong here!

It's not surprising that the term 'Farang' is so often misunderstood as just meaning 'foreigner'. Yesterday's Bangkok Post ran a rather shallow article by a Danish-Korean woman who describes herself as a 'Farang Asian', and in the same article she objects to being approached by 'Farang Indians'. Of course, the Bangkok Post's proof readers are notoriously inept, but still, the fact remains, Farang means - exclusively - white Westerner.

Dru

I have read that the term farang originates from the word "farangset" (Francais > faran-sai), which would make sense since the French were around for a long time in the region (Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam). The Arab connection seems a bit farfetched IMHO.

[dru2]

My first post - but after more than 20 years residence in Thailand I'm still surprised how often the term 'Farang' is misunderstood.

A Farang is not just any 'foreigner' (foreigners are collectively 'khon tang prathet' = 'people from outside the country'), but is always a Caucasian Westerner. The term probably originates from the Arabic farangee, perhaps before that from the old medieaval French term 'Frank').

By contrast, South Asians and Middle Easterners are (Khon) Khaek, Chinese are (Khon) Jin, Japanese are (Khon) Yipun, Koreans are (Khon) Kaoree and so on. There are rude names too - certainly for Chinese (Jek) and Japanese (Yun), but not, as far as I am aware, for Westerners. Of course, I may be wrong here!

It's not surprising that the term 'Farang' is so often misunderstood as just meaning 'foreigner'. Yesterday's Bangkok Post ran a rather shallow article by a Danish-Korean woman who describes herself as a 'Farang Asian', and in the same article she objects to being approached by 'Farang Indians'. Of course, the Bangkok Post's proof readers are notoriously inept, but still, the fact remains, Farang means - exclusively - white Westerner.

Dru

I have read that the term farang originates from the word "farangset" (Francais > faran-sai), which would make sense since the French were around for a long time in the region (Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam). The Arab connection seems a bit farfetched IMHO.

In fact it really is quite probable. Arab sailors were visiting Thailand for many centuries before Vasco da Gama made it round the Cape of Good Hope. When Europeans eventually arrived in the 16th century no doubt the Arab traders would have told the Thais that these hairy white newcomers were 'farangee'... Interestingly, when we first turned up in Burma the locals decided to call us 'white Indians'. Apologies for going on at length, I know this is a land ownership thread. Still, I think we can agree that Farang = white Europeans, and that the proposed law is aimed at all foreigners, not just Farang.

[caf]

I have to agree with you, Sassienie. I wish we had a bit more of Thailand's regulations in Canada. New Zealand was wise in it's laws in regards to foreign ownership of land and public access. Certain rich Americans wanted to buy up fishing rights along some famous rivers and were not allowed to do so.

How do you feel then. Ian, about Thais owning large parcels of land abroad, eg London, when we can't here. And can ordinary Thais hold currency in overseas banks. I was told they are not allowed to.

[cmdream]

I have a different take from most of you, different from the camp that says 'you can't/shouldn't own land anyway so quit whining' and also different from the camp that says 'my wife and I should be able to own a small plot or a house and live on it'. This is because it isn't about you, it's about her.

The current efforts that I see going on to me represent a move back to the Bad Old Days: Any Thai woman who wants to own land and who happens to be married to a foreigner will now have to fight for her right to own property, and demonstrate how she obtained the money. This INCLUDES cases where the Thai woman actually does have money herself, or for example sells family land to purchase another plot: it will now all be under government/legal scrutiny because of the person she chose to marry.

My personal situation is pretty similar to the above, except that we had the good sense not to register any marriage exactly for the reason that we didn't trust the Thai government to not go back on the 1997 Constitution which cemented equal rights for Thai women. Since then we've of course seen that constitution shredded in a military coup, and in return got something doctored to cater to particular powers-that-be. And they might just get away with putting extra scrutiny on business deals by women, who may have to end up proving that the're not married to a foreigner and/or demonstrate where the money came from.

Winnie you are a big bag of wisdom. The part of this law that is troublesome is that the Thai wife must prove she had the money for the land purchase. That she did not get the money from her Farange or foreign husband and then issue him a 30 year lease. That the decision of the local inspector is final and there is no appeal. Draconian to say the least ! This to be carried out by local inspectors is scary.

[cmsally]

I have a different take from most of you, different from the camp that says 'you can't/shouldn't own land anyway so quit whining' and also different from the camp that says 'my wife and I should be able to own a small plot or a house and live on it'. This is because it isn't about you, it's about her.

The current efforts that I see going on to me represent a move back to the Bad Old Days: Any Thai woman who wants to own land and who happens to be married to a foreigner will now have to fight for her right to own property, and demonstrate how she obtained the money. This INCLUDES cases where the Thai woman actually does have money herself, or for example sells family land to purchase another plot: it will now all be under government/legal scrutiny because of the person she chose to marry.

My personal situation is pretty similar to the above, except that we had the good sense not to register any marriage exactly for the reason that we didn't trust the Thai government to not go back on the 1997 Constitution which cemented equal rights for Thai women. Since then we've of course seen that constitution shredded in a military coup, and in return got something doctored to cater to particular powers-that-be. And they might just get away with putting extra scrutiny on business deals by women, who may have to end up proving that the're not married to a foreigner and/or demonstrate where the money came from.

Winnie you are a big bag of wisdom. The part of this law that is troublesome is that the Thai wife must prove she had the money for the land purchase. That she did not get the money from her Farange or foreign husband and then issue him a 30 year lease. That the decision of the local inspector is final and there is no appeal. Draconian to say the least ! This to be carried out by local inspectors is scary.

The guys at the Or Bor Tor are going to love... this one if it comes about.

It seems to be another one of their efforts to keep the local govt happy and increase their local power.

Govt members have taken notice of the fact that Isan is full of farangs and are using it to their political advantage.

That's a bit tongue in cheek but there could be an ounce of truth to it.

[cmdream]

I have a different take from most of you, different from the camp that says 'you can't/shouldn't own land anyway so quit whining' and also different from the camp that says 'my wife and I should be able to own a small plot or a house and live on it'. This is because it isn't about you, it's about her.

The current efforts that I see going on to me represent a move back to the Bad Old Days: Any Thai woman who wants to own land and who happens to be married to a foreigner will now have to fight for her right to own property, and demonstrate how she obtained the money. This INCLUDES cases where the Thai woman actually does have money herself, or for example sells family land to purchase another plot: it will now all be under government/legal scrutiny because of the person she chose to marry.

My personal situation is pretty similar to the above, except that we had the good sense not to register any marriage exactly for the reason that we didn't trust the Thai government to not go back on the 1997 Constitution which cemented equal rights for Thai women. Since then we've of course seen that constitution shredded in a military coup, and in return got something doctored to cater to particular powers-that-be. And they might just get away with putting extra scrutiny on business deals by women, who may have to end up proving that the're not married to a foreigner and/or demonstrate where the money came from.

Winnie you are a big bag of wisdom. The part of this law that is troublesome is that the Thai wife must prove she had the money for the land purchase. That she did not get the money from her Farange or foreign husband and then issue him a 30 year lease. That the decision of the local inspector is final and there is no appeal. Draconian to say the least ! This to be carried out by local inspectors is scary.

The guys at the Or Bor Tor are going to love... this one if it comes about.

It seems to be another one of their efforts to keep the local govt happy and increase their local power.

Govt members have taken notice of the fact that Isan is full of farangs and are using it to their political advantage.

That's a bit tongue in cheek but there could be an ounce of truth to it.

Yes, as I read it, the local inspector has full authority. If the Thai wife cannot prove thru bank statements, income etc. at the time of purchase that she had the funds to buy the land he will make an assessment of land value only, any improvements, such as a 5 million baht house, will not be included in the assessment. He will write a check for the amount assessed and she must walk away, no appeal.

[lannarebirth]

If all you have to do is take care of the Or Bor Tor, than one shouldn't worry too much. They will find a mutually acceptable solution.

[Bill97]

[quote name='cmdream' date='2009-08-31 22:11:55' post='2980061'

as I read it

The it that you are reading the Chiang Mai Mail article, right? If so you are putting a lot of faith in their ability to accurately summarize a proposed law. Do you think that they got a legal translation of the law before they wrote or do you think their reporter is qualified to accurately summarize the law? Perhaps the story was just put in to attract readership as newspapers often do.

A lot of fuss about a lot of speculation started by someone that does not know a farang from a foreigner and who suggests that foreigners can buy land in Thailand without meeting some high conditions for investment or VIP Card status.