Gays In Chiang Mai Vs. "lanna Culture"

[noithip]

I thought this may be from interest for the gay community. It is an interview with a "red-shirt" spokeswoman in the September edition of "Chiang Mai Citylife" magazine.

Quote:

Citylife: What about the Gay Pride Parade last year where your protesters forced the parade to cancel as well as intimidating and spitting on members of the gay community?

Kanyapak: Our third aim is to protect Lanna culture and we simply did not like the Gay Pride Parade. In the past there were no gays or ladyboys, but today they live together openly, they wear revealing clothes in the streets. We had to go out in force to protect our culture against this...

Full interview is here http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

Most disturbing...

[onni4me]

In the past there were no gays or ladyboys, but today they live together openly, they wear revealing clothes in the streets. We had to go out in force to protect our culture against this...

Makes me so sad always...anyway there have been Thai history professionals who have proved that there has existed a gay and ladyboy culture for centuries. Nothing new except this new trend of violent measures against minorities. Is violence Thai Lanna culture?

Living together? Revealing clothes? A threat to culture...let me laugh. Why not go back to ride with water buffaloes and ban cars that really destroy f.e. Chiang Mai?

Lanna art was subsequent cross cultural influences from Myanmar and Sukhothai had some effect on Lanna art and architecture, but a distinctive cultural identity existed up to the present.The charm and gentleness of the Northerners seldom fail to impress even the most demanding of visitors. Many fall in love with sweetness and delicated arts of Lanna.

The rich culture and history owe much to the influence of Burma and, to a certain extent Laos.Lanna is completely different from other provinces of Thailand in arts style and culture. It is generally acknowledged, throughout Thailand,

that the Northern women are the most beautiful and people friendliest and politest in the country..

[scorecard]

I thought this may be from interest for the gay community. It is an interview with a "red-shirt" spokeswoman in the September edition of "Chiang Mai Citylife" magazine.

Quote:

Citylife: What about the Gay Pride Parade last year where your protesters forced the parade to cancel as well as intimidating and spitting on members of the gay community?

Kanyapak: Our third aim is to protect Lanna culture and we simply did not like the Gay Pride Parade. In the past there were no gays or ladyboys, but today they live together openly, they wear revealing clothes in the streets. We had to go out in force to protect our culture against this...

Full interview is here http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

Most disturbing...

Another reinforcement of what ths 'mob' really are - thugs and self appointed vigilantes.

Quote: ".....we simply did not like the Gay Pride Parade." 'we' of course is the CM 51 red shirts and their self appointed role as arbitors of what is right and wrong, regardless of the laws of Thailand and regardless of the fact that the group concerned were granted a permit (by a properly constituted boby which represents and takes decisions for and on behalf of the populace of CM). Also ignoring that it was in fact a small parade, and regardless of the fact that the parade was about awareness of HIV and AIDS - all in the interests of CM.

Quote: "... In the past there were no gays or ladyboys, but today ...." Another reinforcement that this 'mob' are just a dangerous gang who have discovered that behaving as a violent mob brings attention and also discovering that they can get away with their violence, and also diplaying their naivety about the numerous configerations of life which exist all over the world. In fact it's well documented that Thailand (like every country in the world) has a rich and colorful 'gay' history.

Ignorant and dangerous!

[noctiluca]

I have already known when I first glanced at this topic that this must have been from a mouth of one of those "Love Chiang Mai" group.

Personally, I believe they do more harm than good to their community. They *may* have good intention and try to mislead people to agree with them, but action speaks louder than words. If they bother to "educate" themselves and open their mind, they would have learned long ago that we all coexist through out history, and yes that includes Lanna history.

Chiang Mai has been known for kind people and elegant and peaceful culture among Thais. This group simply destroys this notion with their blind loyalty to "He Who Must Not Be Named" and hatred towards anyone else who do not share their narrow-minded and absurd views. My only hope is that Chiang Mai and other Northerners are finally wise up to realize this imbecile group of people do not represent them and jettison these fanatics from their community once and for all.

Foreigners and visitors, please note. These group of thugs and their misnomer **DO NOT** represent Chiang Mai or Thai people. They just represent themselves as garbage of society. You couldn't even find the word "shame" in their vocabulary.

[Ijustwannateach]

*We're* not fooled, but I hope the 'Thainess' delusion- that notion that 'Thai culture' comes from a sexless and sterile Victorian etiquette, and has nothing to do with anything in the history or culture of Thailand- which has caught on with many of the richer and dottier central Thais doesn't become a 'Chiang Mainess' or 'Lannaness' which is used even in part as a stick for one group to use to beat gays. However, I'm personally convinced that gays are a strong enough part of culture that it is more likely that this aspect of their platform will be more likely to take them down.

[Paagai]

I'm sure many will disagree with me here and say gay people should always protest against homophobia in whatever form it takes. But, in the case of the CM Gay Pride, I think the best thing to do wtih the Red Shirts is ignore them, I don't believe that protest was anything to do with gays or lanna culture but just an excuse for another demonstration to maintain their momentum on behalf of their puppet master. At that time they were protesting about everything, and anything with the protesters being paid to be there. Ignore them and deny them the oxygen of publicity they so desparately crave...... well, at least until next year

[Sao Jiang Mai]

It was most disturbing talking to DJ Aom, it appears they have set themselves up to be the arbitrars and protectors of Lanna culture - whatever the hel_l that is...Culture evolves, I wish these people would too.

[Unfaithful]

These demon-filled Thais not only set themselves up as moral judges.They act as extra-judicial terrorists to violently force their perverted distortion of Thai Buddhism upon Thai Buddhists.They dishonor the gentle Buddha.They act worse than ignorant farangs.They ignore their own history and culture.

[PeaceBlondie]

I will not be as damning as Unfaithful, but I agree. Chiang Mai Rak 51 need not have left San Kamphaeng to notice that the Lanna Kingdom was a haven of hip-swiveling, high voiced Thai Buddhist lady boys. Go to Lamphun and Lamphang, where lady-boys are thicker than a plate of northern somtam. I live among local, gay, Sino-Thais who beat great-great-grandfather Seng Sae Khu (a Hakka Chinese immigrant from Meizhou, Guangdong who arrived in Siam in the 1860's) by 60 years.

[geriatrickid]

Is it possible that this person was quoted out of context or is not a representative of other redshirts?

I ask because I know a guy from the area that is gay and is a redshirt, but he too wasn't very enthused by the parade.

No, I'm not saying I support such nastiness, but I really would like to see or read other Thai redshirt opinions.

I think it's safe to say that, whether one is pro or anti parade, the typical person wouldn't interfere. If one is disturbed by such an event, one would simply avoid it, i.e. not participate or watch. Is it possible, that some people with a specific agenda are being opportunistic? i.e. In various western countries we see people that don't like gays or abortion rights or whatever, gravitate to certain political groups because those groups offer a parking spot. I mention this because I have met more "yellow shirts" that have a chip on their shoulder about evil farang cultural influences than I have redshirts. Ignorance and hate seems to cut across both sides of the political spectrum in Thailand.

[noithip]

Sorry for giving this thread a little bit stupid name, I just read it and posted it right away.

Actually I think their neo-fascist, while calling it traditional, point of view should be heard. Only by spreading information like this, getting people that don't have to personally deal with this kind of people involved, I see hope that there is a strong enough response to ideologies like this. These people are creating something that was never really there but are brainwashing people to think they are trying to save a culture. The culture they are talking about is, as pointed out by earlier posts, actually one of the most open minded. I feel disgusted by the idea of the scapegoat as only mean to find followers for a cause that has nothing to do at all with it. People get lurked into something they don't really understand and end up, through the dynamic of the masses, doing things they would have never thought of. To say things like yes we have publicly beaten an elderly person to death, but actually we are as peaceful as Gandhi, says it all. The followers are following like sheep, it's their leaders that are creating ideologies that are nothing less than insane.

Another example to this would be their mock funeral of Abhisit, which is a direct insult to Buddhist culture, yet stating to be protecting culture as such.

Let's hope this insanity doesn't grow, but finds an end!

[noithip]

Is it possible that this person was quoted out of context or is not a representative of other redshirts?

Follow the link in OP, it will take you to the interview.

There are many groups in the "red-shirt" movement, it is a tactical issue also explained in the interview. They do not all share the same ideologies. The only thing really uniting them is their demand to bring back Thaksin. The person interview is co-founder and spokesperson of the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group, and is an old family friend of Thaksin's family. A person that studied political science in Singapore, and was having a souvenir business in Chiang Mai.

[rixalex]

As always, you play the "i take no sides in this - both as bad as each other" card...

Ignorance and hate seems to cut across both sides of the political spectrum in Thailand.

but yet the underlining thrust of your post is to defend the reds and attack the yellows...

Is it possible that this person was quoted out of context or is not a representative of other redshirts?

I have met more "yellow shirts" that have a chip on their shoulder about evil farang cultural influences than I have redshirts.

[Ijustwannateach]

A really fast way to get this thread off-topic and closed would be to hijack it into one of the tired red-yellow controversies.

What ISN'T controversial- because it is a matter of public record- is that a large, aggressive mob composed of red-shirt political group members (whether gay or not) illegally oppressed a genuine, grassroots gay pride march in Chiang Mai with the apparent threat of violence.

What IS on topic- is their motivation for this single (gay-related) event and their justification for it. What ISN'T on topic is anything else political. Thanks for your understanding.

[geriatrickid]

Is it possible that this person was quoted out of context or is not a representative of other redshirts?

Follow the link in OP, it will take you to the interview.

Thank you. I couldn't open the link earlier and now I can. I read it 2X and I do see the context.

A. Citylife: What about the Gay Pride Parade last year where your protesters forced the parade to cancel as well as intimidating and spitting on members of the gay community?

Kanyapak: Our third aim is to protect Lanna culture and we simply did not like the Gay Pride Parade. In the past there were no gays or ladyboys, but today they live together openly, they wear revealing clothes in the streets. We had to go out in force to protect our culture against this. The people who were spitting were not red shirts; they were infiltrators who wanted us to look bad. It was not just us who wanted to stop this parade, villagers and the entire province of Chiang Mai called up our station to ask us to intervene. We were afraid that this would become an annual event, and we all know that Chiang Mai is a place for human trafficking.

B. Citylife: What if there is another gay parade planned?

Kanyapak: If in the future they wish to have a parade they can send us their proposal and if we think that it is polite then we will allow it, and even promote it. We can't have half dressed gay people climbing up pagodas and temples and showing disrespect to our culture.

Ok, so she denies the spitters were Redshirts. Maybe they were, maybe they were not. I think the key point is that she is distancing herself from the spitters which suggests that she is not in agreement with such behaviour. Even if they were associates of her group, her statement is an acknowledgement that such behaviour is inappropriate. She does have a valid point when she mentions it wasn't just her group that opposed the march.

In question B, I think she provides an indication of why some people would be upset. Gay pride parades can have some rather raunchy behaviour with private parts exposed. In a society where holding your gf/bf's hand in public is frowned upon, can you see why some people would get antsy? Sure, some of her fears are silly, but they are real to her. Perhaps, if someone had taken the time to meet with her and to educate her, the outcome could have been different. She even goes on to say that if the event is "polite" she would support the parade. Is it possible that what she was trying to say was that she was opposed to the fleshy type displays? (I know that it's sort of a cop out, but at least she says she isn't opposed to a gay pride parade, which should give some room for dialogue for the next event.) There's no point leaving her out of the planning. Someone has to reach out to her and show her that her fears are unfounded. What's needed is a solution, not an additional confrontation.

No I am not defending her behaviour . She blocked a lawful event and that was wrong. Nor is it her place to make laws or to dictate morality. Unfortunately, I think her mindset is reflective of a great many Thais and that's what some foreigners may have trouble understanding.

[Ijustwannateach]

GK, I think you should look up the thread in the Chiang Mai forum about the recent parade- ah, here it is. It was not one of the typical Pattaya bar-boy prostitution promotion parades. The way you are writing, it doesn't seem like you are truly familiar with the situation. Happy reading!

[onni4me]

In a society where holding your gf/bf's hand in public is frowned upon, can you see why some people would get antsy?

Er...excuse me but where in the fantasy land you live in?

I have noticed terrible degenerate practices taking place in this kingdom and people actually hugging and holding hands...and kissing in public. YES! Terrible horrible kissing is taking place. We need desperate measures to crack down on kissing and these disgusting practices.

It may be that there are people who don't hold hands but that might be due to hot weather and sticky hands. I believe that there exists no more that traditional Thailand. Things have changed and people do get influences from movies, ads and so on. They do drive motorbikes and cars not drive a water buffalo wagons. Men do not dress up in sarongs so much as they used to.

I sometimes hug my bf (mostly among family and close friends) and even hold his hand and so far haven't noticed anyone frowning upon me. But that must make me sex hungry disgusting farang that should be beaten to death by some mob. Maybe we could take some advice from Taliban how to hit people with sticks when dressed unproperly.

Maybe as geriatric you are, you could lead the crowd against modern winds waving your walking stick. Morals...bah!

[geriatrickid]

GK, I think you should look up the thread in the Chiang Mai forum about the recent parade- ah, here it is. It was not one of the typical Pattaya bar-boy prostitution promotion parades. The way you are writing, it doesn't seem like you are truly familiar with the situation. Happy reading!

The Chiang Mai organizers did indeed present a toned down conservative description of what would occur (as per the thread link), however, so too have the Phuket event organizers. If the Phuket gay pride parade/pageant is an indication of what can occur, then indeed there can be exposed flesh etc. For some it is upsetting. For others, it's no big deal. And that's the point. Her perception and others like her that see pictures from other events held in Thailand and have negative perceptions. The difference in Phuket is that the situation is well managed and there is a considerable marketing effort expended to allay negative feelings. It has become a business opportunity so that even those that are opposed shut up because everyone benefits. Do you remember years ago when the gay pride week was suggested for Phuket the negative reactions? Alot of people invested time explaining what it was about and in building a consensus. I think that they had a tougher time of it too as the sizeable muslim population was conservative in its outlook.

Perhaps if someone explained to her the upside, then she wouldn't be hostile. She is ignorant. Getting into a brawl with someone like this won't help matters next parade, because she'll still be stirring up sh-t. She has to be brought into the process.

[rixalex]

It may be that there are people who don't hold hands but that might be due to hot weather and sticky hands.

Most Thais have intimacy issues when in public and it has nothing to do with the weather. It's just not the done thing to display affection publicly - that's the way most of them are brought-up. Surprised you haven't noticed this.

[onni4me]

Surprised you haven't noticed this.

Yes, I never notice anything. Like the time when walking my evening walk around the lake seeing a couple f*****g on a bench. But luckily I am blind. And I am also revealing my cultural unsensitivity. Don't know anything about Thai or Thai culture.

Ignorant fuc_k, that I am. Need to be batted until death.

P.S. Sarcasm is a difficult form of writing.

Edited September 3, 2009 by onni4me

[rixalex]

Yes, I never notice anything. Like the time when walking my evening walk around the lake seeing a couple f*****g on a bench. But luckily I am blind. And I am also revealing my cultural unsensitivity. Don't know anything about Thai or Thai culture.

Ignorant fuc_k, that I am. Need to be batted until death.

P.S. Sarcasm is a difficult form of writing.

You are actually coming across as more agressive than sarcastic.

No need to take things so personally. No one was attacking you.

[PeaceBlondie]

Prior to the gay pride event that was forcibly stopped by hateful Rak 51 illegal criminal Thais of Lanna non-culture, local Thai organizers held meetings that explained those plans. I attended two such events. She (the Thai interviewed) knew this. She and the thugs of her Thai group had chances to advise, but they had no authority to disrupt the approved event. As a Thai citizen, she could have alerted the uniformed Thai police who were present, if an illegal act occurred. She did not act as a responsible, respectable Thai Buddhist should act. She violated Lanna culture. But maybe she dresses nice.

[endure]

In a society where holding your gf/bf's hand in public is frowned upon, can you see why some people would get antsy?

I sometimes hug my bf (mostly among family and close friends) and even hold his hand and so far haven't noticed anyone frowning upon me.

That's because holding hands and hugging a a member of the same sex is acceptable whereas to many Thais doing the same to a member of the opposite sex is not.

[Ijustwannateach]

Btw, GK, you sure do have a lot of gay friends...

I don't think that the leader of a group that illegally stopped a legimate event, with threat of violence- an event which you continue to allege with no evidence 'would have' been improper in some way, probably because you still haven't read the CM thread and still don't realise that this event was a horse of a completely different colour to ANYTHING done in any tourist zone- has any business being 'brought in' to a process of any type. Maybe she should be charged for her criminal behaviour, instead.

[rixalex]

I don't think that the leader of a group that illegally stopped a legimate event, <abridged> has any business being 'brought in' to a process of any type. Maybe she should be charged for her criminal behaviour, instead.

GK is working hard to play down and justify the actions and comments of a group simply because of who they are affiliated to. It's a theme that runs through most of his posts and contradicts his supposed neutrality.

[onni4me]

That's because holding hands and hugging a a member of the same sex is acceptable whereas to many Thais doing the same to a member of the opposite sex is not.

That's why I like it here so much...

Although, I believe that Songkhran seems to be an exception. Many young guys seem to use it an excuse to touch ladies going as far as grabbing their tits - normally rubbing some sort of baby powder mud into them. That wouldn't do in most European countries without being punched in the nose. Amazing Thailand, indeed.

[onni4me]

Yes, I never notice anything. Like the time when walking my evening walk around the lake seeing a couple f*****g on a bench. But luckily I am blind. And I am also revealing my cultural unsensitivity. Don't know anything about Thai or Thai culture.

Ignorant fuc_k, that I am. Need to be batted until death.

P.S. Sarcasm is a difficult form of writing.

You are actually coming across as more agressive than sarcastic.

No need to take things so personally. No one was attacking you.

Hmm...actually sarcasm has a Greek roots and originally meant 'ripping off one's flesh'. Can't be much more aggressive than that, I suppose.

I don't take things personally. People knowing me could confirm that. What I take personally is any kind of injustice. I just like to write here. Maybe it takes some edge off the stress that I confront on other areas like work. Cheaper than going to see a shrink...which might explain why so many here are more aggressive than in so called normal life. No offense to anyone.

[john b good]

It was most disturbing talking to DJ Aom, it appears they have set themselves up to be the arbitrars and protectors of Lanna culture - whatever the hel_l that is...Culture evolves, I wish these people would too.

When I replied in the other thread running on your interview with "this person" I really thought that "this person, this woman" who you interviewed had really missed out on her place and claim to immortality "and probably what she is really after is fame"

In reality she should have been with Jim Jones down in Jonestown, Guyana on November 18, 1978 when more than 900 disciples died. I think that she is a candidate for the next Jonestown event.

Hitler couldn't have brainwashed her any better.

(if they "both threads" are both talking about the same issue perhaps the mods might think it appropriate to merge the two threads)

Edited September 3, 2009 by john b good

[paulfromphuket]

GK, I think you should look up the thread in the Chiang Mai forum about the recent parade- ah, here it is. It was not one of the typical Pattaya bar-boy prostitution promotion parades. The way you are writing, it doesn't seem like you are truly familiar with the situation. Happy reading!

The Chiang Mai organizers did indeed present a toned down conservative description of what would occur (as per the thread link), however, so too have the Phuket event organizers. If the Phuket gay pride parade/pageant is an indication of what can occur, then indeed there can be exposed flesh etc. For some it is upsetting. For others, it's no big deal. And that's the point. Her perception and others like her that see pictures from other events held in Thailand and have negative perceptions. The difference in Phuket is that the situation is well managed and there is a considerable marketing effort expended to allay negative feelings. It has become a business opportunity so that even those that are opposed shut up because everyone benefits. Do you remember years ago when the gay pride week was suggested for Phuket the negative reactions? Alot of people invested time explaining what it was about and in building a consensus. I think that they had a tougher time of it too as the sizeable muslim population was conservative in its outlook.

Perhaps if someone explained to her the upside, then she wouldn't be hostile. She is ignorant. Getting into a brawl with someone like this won't help matters next parade, because she'll still be stirring up sh-t. She has to be brought into the process.

The Phuket event has not happened in the last two years due to the greed and then apathy of the so called commitee that had in the past made it such a commecial sucesss,

I I never saw any body part's say a few boy nipples.

The last event was largly organised by Falang bar owners whom at the end of the day got screwed by the Thai bar owners and refused to do it aagin, now the Thai's cant' organise a piss up on the beach, shame on them.

[scorecard]

Quote:

"....It was not just us who wanted to stop this parade, villagers and the entire province of Chiang Mai called up our station to ask us to intervene. We were afraid that this would become an annual event, and we all know that Chiang Mai is a place for human trafficking.

"The entire province of Chiang Mai called their radio station......." Seems a little bit over the top and a little ignorant and stupid that anybody would believe such a statement.

"...and we all know that CM is a place for human trafficking". 1) can't see any connection. 2). I'm tempted to say "Well why aren't the CM red shirt 51 group actively fighting human trafficking if you are so concerned about being the 'police' of CM province?"

B. Citylife: What if there is another gay parade planned?

Kanyapak: If in the future they wish to have a parade they can send us their proposal and if we think that it is polite then we will allow it, and even promote it. We can't have half dressed gay people climbing up pagodas and temples and showing disrespect to our culture.

If in the future they wish to have a parade they can send us their proposal ...

They have appointed themselves to be the police and the city council.