How Is This For Thai Logic

[farangconnection]

This must be the ultimate in not losing face, or whatever you call it.

Here at the F.C. we have at last assembled a great team of staff, or so I thought. I pay each one 8,000 a month(11,000 with tips)

free board, lodging food and drink. So, that amounts to around 15,000-17,000 a month. A tad higher than the 3,000-4,000 most restaurants pay. The other day, oneof the waiters friends came tio visit him,and he sat outside drinking with him for four hours. We told his wife to have a word with him, to drink after hours if he must. She did, so he said " OK, I'm finished here now"

Yesterday, he came back, and took his wife, and her freind away from the job they love. OK, we have along list of replacements, and now the wage will drop to just above the minimum, but why? Why throw in a job you love, getting more money than you dreamed of because of a semi-telling off? It beats me.

[bdenner]

Congradulations on being able to get staff in the first place. Eddie at Eddies Sports Bar in Ban Dung (Udon Thani province) has never been able to keep em for more than a couple of weeks on basically the same package you offer. Soon as he points at a mop they head back to the rice paddies.

In fact one of his staff who had been there about a month disappeared into your neck of the woods with his motorbike and till receipts (you may remember I sent you a PM about her about 9 months ago) BTW she was eventually arrested in Buriram trying to steal another bike, Eddie got his back.

[noahvail]

From what you've described about your employees' wages and fringe benefits, it seems that you treat your staff rather well. So, why the ultimate in the biting-the-nose category? I can think of three reasons. First, could there be a real loss of face of the waiter because you told his wife, and did not confront him directly? (And the corollary, did she really light in to him about it?) The second, which may have greater weight, is that if someone is drinking for four hours during working hours, he might be an alcoholic. That might make him prone to rash and seemingly unwarranted decisions. Thirdly, there might be something going on in his life that is so overwhelming that your word to his wife was the final straw, and he snapped; there's no way of knowing that, of course, unless he told you, and that doesn't seem to have happened. I can understand his wife leaving your employ, to support her husband; but her friend as well? Nope, doesn't make sense. There's more here than meets the eye.

You're fortunate to have a waiting list to choose from. That speaks well for how you run your business.

Don't lose any sleep over it, it's not in your control.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

From what you've described about your employees' wages and fringe benefits, it seems that you treat your staff rather well. So, why the ultimate in the biting-the-nose category? I can think of three reasons. First, could there be a real loss of face of the waiter because you told his wife, and did not confront him directly? (And the corollary, did she really light in to him about it?) The second, which may have greater weight, is that if someone is drinking for four hours during working hours, he might be an alcoholic. That might make him prone to rash and seemingly unwarranted decisions. Thirdly, there might be something going on in his life that is so overwhelming that your word to his wife was the final straw, and he snapped; there's no way of knowing that, of course, unless he told you, and that doesn't seem to have happened. I can understand his wife leaving your employ, to support her husband; but her friend as well? Nope, doesn't make sense. There's more here than meets the eye.

You're fortunate to have a waiting list to choose from. That speaks well for how you run your business.

Don't lose any sleep over it, it's not in your control.

Agreed. For most Thais (and many farangs), the immediate emotional response will over-ride the logic of the situation, and by the time they get to thinking about it (if at all), they see they've painted themselves into a corner and have no easy exit. Thais rarely appear to learn from this experience though, and the next time will produce the same result. Then they wonder why their luck is so bad so its off-to-the-temple-for-some-tamboon-to-get-rid-of-the-bad-luck time

Edited September 4, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[pdavids]

You're not alone. We have a small resort and had employed a security guard for something like two years. He worked at night and basically slept, or watched the TV, through his entire shift anyway. He started to come in late - only 30 minutes or so - so we decided to ask him to sign on each night. "Too difficult," was the response and he turned and walked away.

[eljeque]

Find some laid-off factory workers

They show up on time, work throughout the day, never complain, and would greatly appreciate the salary.

[mca]

You're not alone. We have a small resort and had employed a security guard for something like two years. He worked at night and basically slept, or watched the TV, through his entire shift anyway. He started to come in late - only 30 minutes or so - so we decided to ask him to sign on each night. "Too difficult," was the response and he turned and walked away.

My wife had a similar situation. A bloke in our soi had been made redundant and asked my wife if their were any vacancies with her company. There weren't really but my wife gave him a position as a security guard seeing as he had a wife and 2 kids to support. The first day he arrived an hour late (and spent half the day round the back of the guardhouse with a ciggie on the go-trying to impress the bosses from the off obviously) and the second and third day he didn't turn up at all. Talk about my wife losing face seeing as she got him the job. He rolled up on the fourth day smelling of booze as if nothing had happened only for my wife to fire him on the spot. He didn't say a word Just got on his motorbike and rode off. Now his wife is going round the village telling anybody who'll listen what a bitch my missus is. I'd like to go up to his wife and tell her that her husband obviously loves the 100 Pipers more than her and the children.

I've got a load of stories about her firm like that. People who were justifiably sacked and then you see them sitting outside the local minimart at one of those chessboard tables rolling their own cigarettes with half a bottle of lao kao on the go. I could very slightly understand their attitude if they had some sort of real social security system to fall back on but these folks have families and not a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of.

Edited September 4, 2009 by mca

[TheJalapenoKid]

interesting to hear as i will be looking to employ soon..... crazy!

[farangconnection]

From what you've described about your employees' wages and fringe benefits, it seems that you treat your staff rather well. So, why the ultimate in the biting-the-nose category? I can think of three reasons. First, could there be a real loss of face of the waiter because you told his wife, and did not confront him directly? (And the corollary, did she really light in to him about it?) The second, which may have greater weight, is that if someone is drinking for four hours during working hours, he might be an alcoholic. That might make him prone to rash and seemingly unwarranted decisions. Thirdly, there might be something going on in his life that is so overwhelming that your word to his wife was the final straw, and he snapped; there's no way of knowing that, of course, unless he told you, and that doesn't seem to have happened. I can understand his wife leaving your employ, to support her husband; but her friend as well? Nope, doesn't make sense. There's more here than meets the eye.

You're fortunate to have a waiting list to choose from. That speaks well for how you run your business.

Don't lose any sleep over it, it's not in your control.

What got me the most was, they waited until I was in hosp[tal here in Ubon to make their move. I am happy to say though, all the vacancies have been filled, for half the wages. Andall family members.

[Dave the Dude]

What got me the most was, they waited until I was in hosp[tal here in Ubon to make their move. I am happy to say though, all the vacancies have been filled, for half the wages. Andall family members.

You must be a bloody scary Boss, Martin

Seems like nothing but scandal in Surin lately

Dave

[MJP]

As my very own Thai sister-in-law says "When you're dealing with Thai's, you're dealing with children".

She adores the West, not because of any material trappings (she actually reckons you're better off over here once tax, cost of living etc are taken out) but because Westerners are much less emotional about silly things and much more pragmatic.

I also learned the ways of employment over here from a restauranteur I know. When I said, "you tight b@stard, how can anyone live on that", he said he'd tried the big employment packages. Good salary, board and food, profit share and bonus, health insurance and dental plan - seriously not bad at all, the staff would see him as a soft touch or become "too big for their boots" and really start taking the pi$$. Many would get the hump and leave, it was a nice place to work too.

[NanaFoods]

I would tend to think it has more to do with what noahvail said about not telling him directly - actually, telling his wife. The faux pas (in his perception) lowers his status in his family - in front of his drinking buddy, no less.

Big loss of face.

Most up-country Thai men just aren't mature enough to handle that, no matter how old and "experienced" they are. As another said, they are slaves to their emotions, and never seem learn from experience, so being "experienced" loses meaning.

He probably stewed, brewed, fumed, and lost sleep for days, over something you and I wouldn't think twice about. Too funny.

Well, at least your biz will be that much more profitable with the new employees working for the going rate.

My experience is that it is of no benefit, and may actually be a detriment, to pay above the going rate. I have a tendency to want to be a little generous myself (perhaps as you do) and had some problems as a result (that my wife warned me about, and I ignored).

So now I let my wife take care of setting employee pay and all has been well. This way, they will willingly work overtime if/when I need it, as this is how they can earn time-and-a-half for overtime pay. They even come in on time... well, most of them, anyway.

[IMA_FARANG]

This must be the ultimate in not losing face, or whatever you call it.

Here at the F.C. we have at last assembled a great team of staff, or so I thought. I pay each one 8,000 a month(11,000 with tips)

free board, lodging food and drink. So, that amounts to around 15,000-17,000 a month. A tad higher than the 3,000-4,000 most restaurants pay. The other day, oneof the waiters friends came tio visit him,and he sat outside drinking with him for four hours. We told his wife to have a word with him, to drink after hours if he must. She did, so he said " OK, I'm finished here now"

Yesterday, he came back, and took his wife, and her freind away from the job they love. OK, we have along list of replacements, and now the wage will drop to just above the minimum, but why? Why throw in a job you love, getting more money than you dreamed of because of a semi-telling off? It beats me.

You handled it badly. You talked to his wife asking her to talk to him. You should have gone directly to him and spoken to him. I know this may not seem reasonable to you, but you made him lose face and be shamed in front of his wife. Quite seriously, how would you feel if one of your business associates went to your wife and complained to her about your management of the business, instead of coming to you directly? Think about it.

[Dave the Dude]

Quite seriously, how would you feel if one of your business associates went to your wife and complained to her about your management of the business, instead of coming to you directly? Think about it.

I know the answer to that !, but best leave it to Mountain to answer

[longstebe]

It must be frustrating on your part.

The dude is clearly a tool.

Gizza job mate

[farangconnection]

Quite seriously, how would you feel if one of your business associates went to your wife and complained to her about your management of the business, instead of coming to you directly? Think about it.

I know the answer to that !, but best leave it to Mountain to answer

As the sign on the wall says

" If you think our staff are rude and impolite, you should see the manager"

In actual fact it was my wife that asked her, girl to girl like.

It is best for us anyway, we have the quietest two months of the year coming up, and to keep them on I was going to pay the salaries from my own pocket anyway.

[Changian]

I'm waiting for a thread from a Thai guy entitled 'How is this for Farang management' in which he tells how he quit his job after the management of the restaurant in which he worked decided to reprimand him by getting his wife to do the dirty work and pass on the warning instead of handling the situation themselves. He then poses the question 'Is this how farangs run businesses in their own country? And if not, why do they do it here?'

[farangconnection]

I'm waiting for a thread from a Thai guy entitled 'How is this for Farang management' in which he tells how he quit his job after the management of the restaurant in which he worked decided to reprimand him by getting his wife to do the dirty work and pass on the warning instead of handling the situation themselves. He then poses the question 'Is this how farangs run businesses in their own country? And if not, why do they do it here?'

One, your reading abilities are not too good, he was not reprimanded, just advised.

Two. Trying to save his face, was our objective in asking his wife to 'advise' him, as she did not do it in front of his friend, but waited until they were alone.

In fact my wife told her not to say anything in front of his friend.

I also think the thread which you are looking for indeed would be entitled " How's this for Farang Management"

with a subtitle of " How was I allowed to sit drinking for four hours when I should have been working and still got a job?",

because I do not know where you come from writing <deleted> like you have, but almost anywhere else in the World, he would have had his marching orders as soon as he opened the bottle.

Or maybe you are Thai yourself and support this ridiculous behaiviour, in that case as I have rebuked you, and am actually not management ,you might go away sulking and never post on here again.

[Dave the Dude]

I'm waiting for a thread from a Thai guy entitled 'How is this for Farang management' in which he tells how he quit his job after the management of the restaurant in which he worked decided to reprimand him by getting his wife to do the dirty work and pass on the warning instead of handling the situation themselves. He then poses the question 'Is this how farangs run businesses in their own country? And if not, why do they do it here?'

Hi Changian

I believe this has been handled in a very Thai way. They(Thai's) do not deal with problems 'face to face' like us farangs. Its is quite normal to get a 3rd party to pass on the news.

Maybe your Thai experience has been gained from outside Isaan (Walking St or Pat Pong? )

Dave

[manjara]

I would agree that paying too much may cause a problem. The thais will think that they are important and therefore must be seen to 'swan around' being important, hence the 4 hour drinking session.

The other thing I have felt in Thailand is that the Thais will very quickly give up on anything that becomes difficult, regardless of the consequences.

[finninuk]

I'm waiting for a thread from a Thai guy entitled 'How is this for Farang management' in which he tells how he quit his job after the management of the restaurant in which he worked decided to reprimand him by getting his wife to do the dirty work and pass on the warning instead of handling the situation themselves. He then poses the question 'Is this how farangs run businesses in their own country? And if not, why do they do it here?'

One, your reading abilities are not too good, he was not reprimanded, just advised.

Two. Trying to save his face, was our objective in asking his wife to 'advise' him, as she did not do it in front of his friend, but waited until they were alone.

In fact my wife told her not to say anything in front of his friend.

I also think the thread which you are looking for indeed would be entitled " How's this for Farang Management"

with a subtitle of " How was I allowed to sit drinking for four hours when I should have been working and still got a job?",

because I do not know where you come from writing <deleted> like you have, but almost anywhere else in the World, he would have had his marching orders as soon as he opened the bottle.

Or maybe you are Thai yourself and support this ridiculous behaiviour, in that case as I have rebuked you, and am actually not management ,you might go away sulking and never post on here again.

Very well said Farang Connection. Most people I agree would have just sacked him on the spot. Have you thought, that is what he wanted?

[farangconnection]

I'm waiting for a thread from a Thai guy entitled 'How is this for Farang management' in which he tells how he quit his job after the management of the restaurant in which he worked decided to reprimand him by getting his wife to do the dirty work and pass on the warning instead of handling the situation themselves. He then poses the question 'Is this how farangs run businesses in their own country? And if not, why do they do it here?'

One, your reading abilities are not too good, he was not reprimanded, just advised.

Two. Trying to save his face, was our objective in asking his wife to 'advise' him, as she did not do it in front of his friend, but waited until they were alone.

In fact my wife told her not to say anything in front of his friend.

I also think the thread which you are looking for indeed would be entitled " How's this for Farang Management"

with a subtitle of " How was I allowed to sit drinking for four hours when I should have been working and still got a job?",

because I do not know where you come from writing <deleted> like you have, but almost anywhere else in the World, he would have had his marching orders as soon as he opened the bottle.

Or maybe you are Thai yourself and support this ridiculous behaiviour, in that case as I have rebuked you, and am actually not management ,you might go away sulking and never post on here again.

Very well said Farang Connection. Most people I agree would have just sacked him on the spot. Have you thought, that is what he wanted?

Could be........................he didn't get his wish. Wow, when I was his age I dreamed of a job like that.

How does it work in the Thai military, if a Sergeant shouts " You little piece of <deleted>, I've seen better dressed turds" do they go home.

I didn't and that's what I was always told.

[longstebe]

"Sh!tty arse kid" comes to mind.

It's just a shame the other 2 didn't have the choice to stay.

He's probably working his little nuts off on a building site for 200 baht per day.

Bless him

[bergen]

"Sh!tty arse kid" comes to mind.

It's just a shame the other 2 didn't have the choice to stay.

He's probably working his little nuts off on a building site for 200 baht per day.

Bless him

If he's paid 200 - he's fortunate

My guess is the wife now has to work twice as much (somewhere) and he'll be on the lao khao

Edited September 8, 2009 by bergen

[farangconnection]

"Sh!tty arse kid" comes to mind.

It's just a shame the other 2 didn't have the choice to stay.

He's probably working his little nuts off on a building site for 200 baht per day.

Bless him

If he's paid 200 - he's fortunate

My guess is the wife now has to work twice as much (somewhere) and he'll be on the lao khao

She worked twice as hard as him here.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

I think the most useful (and insightful) comment on this thread so far was from the Thai lady who noted "When you are dealing with Thais, you are dealing with children". This seems very astute to me with one possible caveat. Thai women are often by far more sensible and pragmatic (mature even) that Thai men, which possibly helps to explain why western men are so popular with Thai women. After all, in my experience, it's the women who still have to feed the kids when the useless Thai husband has quit his job again or spent the money on drink and fags and playing the alpha/beta game with his mates.

The word feckless spring to mind.

Not all but many.

Edited September 8, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[tmd5855]

I think the most useful (and insightful) comment on this thread so far was from the Thai lady who noted "When you are dealing with Thais, you are dealing with children". This seems very astute to me with one possible caveat. Thai women are often by far more sensible and pragmatic (mature even) that Thai men, which possibly helps to explain why western men are so popular with Thai women. After all, in my experience, it's the women who still have to feed the kids when the useless Thai husband has quit his job again or spent the money on drink and fags and playing the alpha/beta game with his mates.

You may have a point there?

Interesting

Food for thought, will ask the TGF?

[barky]

This must be the ultimate in not losing face, or whatever you call it.

Here at the F.C. we have at last assembled a great team of staff, or so I thought. I pay each one 8,000 a month(11,000 with tips)

free board, lodging food and drink. So, that amounts to around 15,000-17,000 a month. A tad higher than the 3,000-4,000 most restaurants pay. The other day, oneof the waiters friends came tio visit him,and he sat outside drinking with him for four hours. We told his wife to have a word with him, to drink after hours if he must. She did, so he said " OK, I'm finished here now"

Yesterday, he came back, and took his wife, and her freind away from the job they love. OK, we have along list of replacements, and now the wage will drop to just above the minimum, but why? Why throw in a job you love, getting more money than you dreamed of because of a semi-telling off? It beats me.

You handled it badly. You talked to his wife asking her to talk to him. You should have gone directly to him and spoken to him. I know this may not seem reasonable to you, but you made him lose face and be shamed in front of his wife. Quite seriously, how would you feel if one of your business associates went to your wife and complained to her about your management of the business, instead of coming to you directly? Think about it.

Kind of agree, BUT, it's still good riddence to bad rubbish nevertheless

[waddy]

This must be the ultimate in not losing face, or whatever you call it.

Here at the F.C. we have at last assembled a great team of staff, or so I thought. I pay each one 8,000 a month(11,000 with tips)

free board, lodging food and drink. So, that amounts to around 15,000-17,000 a month. A tad higher than the 3,000-4,000 most restaurants pay. The other day, oneof the waiters friends came tio visit him,and he sat outside drinking with him for four hours. We told his wife to have a word with him, to drink after hours if he must. She did, so he said " OK, I'm finished here now"

Yesterday, he came back, and took his wife, and her freind away from the job they love. OK, we have along list of replacements, and now the wage will drop to just above the minimum, but why? Why throw in a job you love, getting more money than you dreamed of because of a semi-telling off? It beats me.

He was probably telling his mate about the bar he had bought and put in a farang manager and you

have ruined it by telling him off in his bar .

[bellagrego]

I remember my first day on the job with the biggest company on earth. I was a buyer/negotiator. The boss told me, "Hold them down to what they ask for " Sounded sill at the time, but I came to understand it. It holds true for Esaan in the wage and girl offerings as well. paying more than market is lunicy as it shows weakness and bad business acumen, Thais as well as others have no respect for those traits and will walk all over you.

russ