ล้อมรอบ

[Rionoir]

ฉันล้อมรอบไปด้วยคนบ้า

Can someone help me understand the grammar here. I was playing around with Rosetta Stone today just seeing what types of things were actually covered, and came across ล้อมรอบ which I was not familiar with before. If I'm not mistaken, I wrote this sentence correctly, and it means "I am surrounded by crazy people." However, I'm very confused why it wouldn't be written "ฉันถูกล้อมรอบ..." to make it passive? I'm also not familiar with ไปด้วย, I assume it operates differently than putting ด้วย after a verb, but maybe I hope someone can clear this up and give me a explanation of this whole sentence. Thanks much!

ไรอั้น

[tgeezer]

ฉันล้อมรอบไปด้วยคนบ้า

Can someone help me understand the grammar here. I was playing around with Rosetta Stone today just seeing what types of things were actually covered, and came across ล้อมรอบ which I was not familiar with before. If I'm not mistaken, I wrote this sentence correctly, and it means "I am surrounded by crazy people." However, I'm very confused why it wouldn't be written "ฉันถูกล้อมรอบ..." to make it passive? I'm also not familiar with ไปด้วย, I assume it operates differently than putting ด้วย after a verb, but maybe I hope someone can clear this up and give me a explanation of this whole sentence. Thanks much!

ไรอั้น

Hello, if you put ถูก would you not have to put ถูกคนบ้าล้อม ?

I think that you would have to say that ไป here is after a verb indicating เรื่อยไป, ไม่หยุด sense of continuance.

If the RS says it means 'I am surrounded' then that is what it means, since they wrote the book, but like you I think it says 'I surround'. but ฉันล้อม means 'I surround'

So how does RS do it?

How about if we say that ล้อมรอบ being two words could be read as an intransitive verb, a state of being surrounded, then ไป serves to intensify the meaning of that adjective-like verb. To put it into English you cant get any more surrounded than surrounded, so you would probably say 'beset on all sides'.

In other words I don't know but its something to talk about, I hope.

[kriswillems]

I Agree.

Some words don't need ถูก for being passive.

For instance:

รำคาญ = to be annoyed by

กวร = to annoy

รำคาญ = ถูกกวร

ไป intensifies the sentence or indicates that the verb (surrounding) has been going on for a while (and not just started).

So, here you could say: completely surrounded.

[SoftWater]

I Agree.

Some words don't need ถูก for being passive.

For instance:

รำคาญ = to be annoyed by

กวร = to annoy

รำคาญ = ถูกกวร

ไป intensifies the sentence or indicates that the verb (surrounding) has been going on for a while (and not just started).

So, here you could say: completely surrounded.

My understanding is that ถูก is only used to form the passive with verbs that indicate the subject has been harmed or has suffered in some way. Merely being surrounded by the crazies doesn't yet imply they've done something bad to you!

[Rikker]

That's the traditional rule, SoftWater, but through external influence (apparently of English), ถูก has come to be used as a neutral passive more and more often. For example, there's a Thai song, อยากถูกเรียกว่าแฟน "I want to be called 'boyfriend'" -- clearly this isn't a negative meaning.

Some Thai traditionalists I've talked to dislike this change. I find it to be overused. But as the passive is becoming more common in Thai, ถูก is losing its negative connotations. Meanwhile, โดน remains wholly negative.

In this case, I think ถูกล้อมรอบ is acceptable, even if not necessary.

[Rionoir]

Hrm.. so what if I said something like "the protestors ล้อมรอบตำรวจ" .. If it can be used either way, how would you know who is surrounding who in that sentence? LoL

[Rikker]

You can tell because of the word ด้วย, a preposition that here means "by" or "with".

"X ล้อมรอบ Y" is a simple transitive verb phrase, and can only be interpreted as "X surrounds Y."

"X ล้อมรอบด้วย Y" is a passive verb phrase, and can only be interpreted as "X is surrounded by Y."

[tgeezer]

You can tell because of the word ด้วย, a preposition that here means "by" or "with".

"X ล้อมรอบ Y" is a simple transitive verb phrase, and can only be interpreted as "X surrounds Y."

"X ล้อมรอบด้วย Y" is a passive verb phrase, and can only be interpreted as "X is surrounded by Y."

You do know that ล้อมรอบ is not a word don't you? The simple verb is ล้อม

[Rikker]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a compound word / phrase, with two component words.

[tgeezer]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a compound word / phrase, with two component words.

Well I was hoping that รอบ may have meant something which you would supply, but โดยรอบ is part of the definition of ล้อม so I suppose that รอบ is superfluous.

Edited September 9, 2009 by tgeezer

[Rikker]

รอบ means "around" or "surrounding". Coupled with ล้อม it makes a euphonic double -- in colloquial pronunciation, it's alliterative (ล้อมลอบ), and the vowels also rhyme. It serves to sound nice, as well as emphasize the idea of being surrounded.

[tgeezer]

รอบ means "around" or "surrounding". Coupled with ล้อม it makes a euphonic double -- in colloquial pronunciation, it's alliterative (ล้อมลอบ), and the vowels also rhyme. It serves to sound nice, as well as emphasize the idea of being surrounded.

Thanks I am definitely missing the language in-action, I must try to get a Native speaker who doesn't speak English to read through the dictionary and some of the things on this forum to straighten out my thought processes.

[meadish_sweetball]

In Thai, it appears very few things are superfluous.

On the contrary I find it often seems that the rule is 'the more the merrier' both in terms of participants in social life, and in the number of words used to express a thought.

[Briggsy]

"ฉันล้อมรอบไปด้วยคนบ้า"

"ฉัน"เป็นใคร?

[tgeezer]

In Thai, it appears very few things are superfluous.

On the contrary I find it often seems that the rule is 'the more the merrier' both in terms of participants in social life, and in the number of words used to express a thought.

I mean superflous in sense of expanding-on, adding or reducing emphasis, which if in ล่้อมรอบ รอบ is there for the purpose of euphoney, it is superflous.

Since รอบ is contained in two of the definitions for ล้อม but not all, they may be thus construed for one of the other reasons alluded to above, that of adding emphasis to the meaning of another definition; a non literal meaning: gathering round for malevolent purpose, a thing which one might feel คนบ้า might do. So; gathered around with malicious intent and joined-up, without gaps, completely surrounded etc. This is probably too far fetched and doesn't change much except nuance.

I notice that Briggsy is also confused as to how we can make this verb not an action of the subject ฉัน. I have not seen any examples of ล้อม being used trasitively so perhaps it is only an intrasitive verb (I have read 'stative' which I suspect may be another way of saying it) one of those which in English need 'am' or 'is' so ฉันล้อมรอบ could stand alone and in fact in English must, so that the modifier คนบ้า can add information. The examples in RID are very simple ล้อมรั้ว ล้อมค่าย which I think backs me up in that รั้ว simply adds info. the subject is in a state of being surrounded and the means is in the form of a fence. ไป shows a non-static situation and is ด่้วย a simple preposition made necessary by the addition of ไป?

I may not have this right, it is just a feeling, and I don't use many resources so is as far as I can go with the limited examples I have, and look forward to learning more of the meaning of this verb.

[DavidHouston]

Here is an example from a newspaper several years ago with uses the verb "ล้อมรอบ" in a transitive sense, where "หมู่บ้าน" is the direct object:

ฝนเริ่มตกหนัก ทำให้ดินจากภูเขาที่ล้อมรอบหมู่บ้านถล่มลงมาทับบ้านเรือน 2 หมู่บ้านกว่า 90 หลัง

The rain began to fall heavily which caused the soil from the mountains surrounding the two villages to wash down and inundate over 90 of the homes there.

[Rionoir]

"ฉันล้อมรอบไปด้วยคนบ้า"

"ฉัน"เป็นใคร?

Sorry?  Why do u ask?

[tgeezer]

Here is an example from a newspaper several years ago with uses the verb "ล้อมรอบ" in a transitive sense, where "หมู่บ้าน" is the direct object:

ฝนเริ่มตกหนัก ทำให้ดินจากภูเขาที่ล้อมรอบหมู่บ้านถล่มลงมาทับบ้านเรือน 2 หมู่บ้านกว่า 90 หลัง

The rain began to fall heavily which caused the soil from the mountains surrounding the two villages to wash down and inundate over 90 of the homes there.

Thanks David, now we have two, ฉันล้อมรอบไปด้วยคนบ้า ภูเขาล้อมรอบหมู่บ้าน Could หมู่บ้านล้อมรอบโดยภูเขา be the similar syntax?

Or should the first be คนบ้าล้อบรอบผม or could it be both? Perhaps, grammatically Thai is not so particular. The more the merrier but you can see why the Rionoir asked the original question.

[Rikker]

I mean superflous in sense of expanding-on, adding or reducing emphasis, which if in ล่้อมรอบ รอบ is there for the purpose of euphoney, it is superflous.

Since รอบ is contained in two of the definitions for ล้อม but not all, they may be thus construed for one of the other reasons alluded to above, that of adding emphasis to the meaning of another definition; a non literal meaning: gathering round for malevolent purpose, a thing which one might feel คนบ้า might do. So; gathered around with malicious intent and joined-up, without gaps, completely surrounded etc. This is probably too far fetched and doesn't change much except nuance.

I notice that Briggsy is also confused as to how we can make this verb not an action of the subject ฉัน. I have not seen any examples of ล้อม being used trasitively so perhaps it is only an intrasitive verb (I have read 'stative' which I suspect may be another way of saying it) one of those which in English need 'am' or 'is' so ฉันล้อมรอบ could stand alone and in fact in English must, so that the modifier คนบ้า can add information. The examples in RID are very simple ล้อมรั้ว ล้อมค่าย which I think backs me up in that รั้ว simply adds info. the subject is in a state of being surrounded and the means is in the form of a fence. ไป shows a non-static situation and is ด่้วย a simple preposition made necessary by the addition of ไป?

I may not have this right, it is just a feeling, and I don't use many resources so is as far as I can go with the limited examples I have, and look forward to learning more of the meaning of this verb.

รอบ is also a conjunction. In English, the verb "surround" and the conjunction "around" happen to have the same root, so it sounds strange to say "to surround around", but saying "to circle around" is grammatical. So this is another possible analysis of what's going on grammatically here in Thai.

From a random internet search: ตึกใหญ่ล้อมรอบบ้าน = "large buildings surround(ing|ed) the house". Literally, "Large buildings surround around (the) house". So this shows it's not just an intransitive verb.

You're right though that รอบ is not strictly necessary, as in this headline, also find via Google:

พันธมิตรล้อมบ้าน "นพดล" ถูกชาวบ้านขับไล่ = "PAD surrounds Nopadol's house, gets chased away by locals"

Keep in mind that headline Thai is necessarily usually more succinct. But one can find plenty of examples of ล้อม without รอบ. It appears in numerous doubles with very similar meanings -- รายล้อม, ห้อมล้อม, แวดล้อม (most commonly seen in สิ่งแวดล้อม "environment"), among others with other related meanings.

About your examples:

ล้อมรั้ว -- รั้ว means "fence" or "wall", so ล้อมรั้ว means to construct a fence around, "fence in", or literally "surround with a fence".

ล้อมค่าย -- ค่าย means "camp" (the noun), so ล้อมค่าย if I'm not mistaken means to circle up for the purpose of setting up camp, similar to the idea of "circling the wagons" in English.

[Briggsy]

tgeezer

You got totally the wrong end of the stick regarding my question.

rionoir

It seems quite an extreme statement. I would like to know more about these คนบ้า

[Rionoir]

rionoir

It seems quite an extreme statement. I would like to know more about these คนบ้า

It's nothing serious, I just make up sentences for my MSN headline sometimes to help me remember words/phrases I don't want to forget.  Just supposed to be silly.

[tgeezer]

About your examples:

ล้อมรั้ว -- รั้ว means "fence" or "wall", so ล้อมรั้ว means to construct a fence around, "fence in", or literally "surround with a fence".

ล้อมค่าย -- ค่าย means "camp" (the noun), so ล้อมค่าย if I'm not mistaken means to circle up for the purpose of setting up camp, similar to the idea of "circling the wagons" in English.

Thanks again, the examples are straight from the RID, I think that I have got more than ล้อม sorted out now and see it now.

[tgeezer]

tgeezer

You got totally the wrong end of the stick regarding my question.

Sorry, I assumed that you had the same problem which I had.