Easy Way To Learn Thai Tone Rules

[grin]

The tone is not based upon the spelling, the spelling is based upon the tone. The tone of any word was based upon the original phonetic environment of the vowel and the length of the vowel.

Are you ignoring the words with tone marks, or do you know something about the origins of the three original Tai-Kadai tones? If the latter, could you please share it with us, via a new thread if need be.

I have always wondered if Thai syllables "without tone marks" are pronounced in some natural manner as opposed to those syllables that have tone marks. Or is there some other linguistic feature of these syllables that groups them together?

My other thought was that maybe this type of syllable is the most numerous so this method of spelling would involve using the least amount of tone marks. Or is the pronunciation just an historical artifact?

Can anyone elucidate on this?

Grin

[Richard W]

My other thought was that maybe this type of syllable is the most numerous so this method of spelling would involve using the least amount of tone marks. Or is the pronunciation just an historical artifact?

It's just a historical artefact.

Initially, live syllables could only have one of three tones, but there were more voicing contrasts in initial cononants. For the commonest tone, no tone mark was used (a natural way of doing things, just as the commonest vowel in Indic languages was implicit), for the second commonest a tone mark written with one stroke was used, and for the third tone a tone mark with two strokes was used. There was no tone contrast in dead syllables.

It is entirely plausible that ho nam was actually pronounced, and there is good evidence that o nam was also pronounced. Initial บ and ด represented preglottalised consonants - one can treat them as clusters /ʔb/ and /ʔd/, which have been treated as equivalent to Khmer /ɓ/ and /ɗ/. Then aspirated and voiceless fricatives constituted the high consonants, other voiceless consonants constituted the middle consonants, and voiced consonants constitued the low consonants. บ and ด are middle because the class of a cluster is normally determined by its first consonant - /ʔ/ in this case.

Then along came the Thai consonant shift and the contrast-preserving tone split, and we end up with the current complicated system, with its pairs of low and high consonants. To make spelling more difficult, two of the resulting tones split - and the etymologically incorrect spelling with mai ek has been established for quite a few words. (This is a slight simplification - originally mid and low class consonants in live syllables with no tone marks had different tones, as in the U Thong dialect and in the 6-tone Vientiane dialect. The 3-way split happened with all three original tones in Southern Thai.)

[tgeezer]

The second takes the tone which it would have if the second consonent were not there ie; ต(ล)าต ตาต however, if the second consonent is a อักษรคู่ 'akson coo' then the second sylable tone is governed my that consonent ie: สภาพ ภาพ falling. อักษรคู่ are low class consonents which have the same sound as a high class consonent ซ is pair to ษ ศ ส and ภ พ are pair to ผ for instance.

'Akson khu' doesn't quite work - it doesn't account for words like แสดง and ฉบับ, where the middle consonant (both senses!) determines the tone of the second syllable. The more phonetic class of 'non-resonant' is required for the rule.

This post was titled 'easy way'!!

Just taking your examples a good place to start is to consider it a rule that

1.the first letter governs the tone of the second syllable with low class akson diow(เดี่ยว) as a second letter.

2.if the second letter is akson khu, akson sung, or akson glang then the second syllable is read as it appears.

Since the term 'cluster' keeps cropping up I must mention that these rules are for akson nam, the words with a อะ between first and second letter, as distinct from genuine akson cooap (ควบ) where the second letter is ร ล ว in which case the first letter governs.

There are probably exceptions but too few to concern anyone trying to make it easy.

[Captain Haddock]

"Easy way"? I'll take the middle way - "Wife!"

(Kudos to you all... Maybe one day...)

[Chrubble]

I thought I had cracked the tone rules until I read this thread.. Can someone explain why ตลาด is low, low. Shouldnt it be low , falling? ลาด starts with a low class consonant and ends in a 'stop' consonant and has a long vowel in the middle. This should produce a falling tone. Where does the ห mysteriously come from to make it low low??

งงจังเลย!!

When there's more than one initial consonant (Here: ตล), the class of the first consonant (ต) is the important one.

[Chrubble]

The second takes the tone which it would have if the second consonent were not there ie; ต(ล)าต ตาต however, if the second consonent is a อักษรคู่ 'akson coo' then the second sylable tone is governed my that consonent ie: สภาพ ภาพ falling. อักษรคู่ are low class consonents which have the same sound as a high class consonent ซ is pair to ษ ศ ส and ภ พ are pair to ผ for instance.

'Akson khu' doesn't quite work - it doesn't account for words like แสดง and ฉบับ, where the middle consonant (both senses!) determines the tone of the second syllable. The more phonetic class of 'non-resonant' is required for the rule.

This post was titled 'easy way'!!

Just taking your examples a good place to start is to consider it a rule that

1.the first letter governs the tone of the second syllable with low class akson diow(เดี่ยว) as a second letter.

2.if the second letter is akson khu, akson sung, or akson glang then the second syllable is read as it appears.

Since the term 'cluster' keeps cropping up I must mention that these rules are for akson nam, the words with a อะ between first and second letter, as distinct from genuine akson cooap (ควบ) where the second letter is ร ล ว in which case the first letter governs.

There are probably exceptions but too few to concern anyone trying to make it easy.

Whoa, seems like the best way to deal with the "rules" is to

1)practice

2)have a Thai tutor handy

Trying to make a rule which may work in most situations, involves so much tweaking to suit your needs, maybe we could just spend the time studying and practicing and learning a lot more...

[Chrubble]

The second takes the tone which it would have if the second consonent were not there ie; ต(ล)าต ตาต however, if the second consonent is a อักษรคู่ 'akson coo' then the second sylable tone is governed my that consonent ie: สภาพ ภาพ falling. อักษรคู่ are low class consonents which have the same sound as a high class consonent ซ is pair to ษ ศ ส and ภ พ are pair to ผ for instance.

'Akson khu' doesn't quite work - it doesn't account for words like แสดง and ฉบับ, where the middle consonant (both senses!) determines the tone of the second syllable. The more phonetic class of 'non-resonant' is required for the rule.

Wow, nice job spotting these exceptions to "อักษรคู่" Are there any others?

Is it because the ด in แสดง and the บ in ฉบับ are "อักษรกลาง"?

Do "อักษรกลาง" then trump the rest?

And if so, does this provide an interesting clue into the psychology of the 3-class system?

[Richard W]

'Akson khu' doesn't quite work - it doesn't account for words like แสดง and ฉบับ, where the middle consonant (both senses!) determines the tone of the second syllable. The more phonetic class of 'non-resonant' is required for the rule.

Wow, nice job spotting these exceptions to "อักษรคู่" Are there any others?

Is it because the ด in แสดง and the บ in ฉบับ are "อักษรกลาง"?

Do "อักษรกลาง" then trump the rest?

The point is that only resonants are overridden if there is a hint of multiple syllables. The 'akson khu' rule would fail if หน and หม had become single letters, as in Lao.

[Richard W]

Do "อักษรกลาง" then trump the rest?

No. The careful pronuciation of เกษม is [L]ka[R]seem. My best non-Indic example is ประสม, double of ผสม. The Khmer form is also written with an aspirate.

[Rionoir]

(sorry this might all be in this thread, but spread out through various posts lol)

Instead of remembering EXCEPTIONS to the inherent ะ rule it is probably easier just to remember the rule itself (i.e., the times the word DOES take the tone from the first letter), which is aksawn soong or aksawn klaang + aksawn diaw. This results in a word which is middle tone + a tone based on the initial consonant. Any other letter combination will result in the second syllable taking it's regular tone. (note: I see these words in phonetics sometimes as Low + whatever tone... however we were instructed that they are pronounced as a neutral middle tone instead of an initial low tone... I realize ขะ would be low tone, but ขนม should be pronounced middle + rising, again according to the instructors I had.)

Note that it's also important that you study CONSONANT CLUSTERS as well. For example:

กว is a recognized consonant cluster, and pronounced GWAA, such as กว่า

however

ผว is NOT a recognized consonant cluster, and so the word ผวา is pronounced using the inherent ะ rule above, it is NOT pronounced PWAA

Edit: While I'm at it, here are ALL the consonant clusters:

กร กล กว

คร คล คว

ขร ขล ขว

ปร ปล

พร พล

ผล

ตร

ทฤ ทร

Ok hope that helps someone... LoL I know consonant clusters seem pretty obvious, but they do come into play once you start reading more and more, so it's important to try to remember them.

[Richard W]

Instead of remembering EXCEPTIONS to the inherent ะ rule it is probably easier just to remember the rule itself (i.e., the times the word DOES take the tone from the first letter), which is aksawn soong or aksawn klaang + aksawn diaw. This results in a word which is middle tone + a tone based on the initial consonant.

Unless I'm misunderstanding akson diao, this is defeated by words like แสดง [M]sa[ML]daeng. The rule basically applies to consonant plus resonant.

While I'm at it, here are ALL the consonant clusters:

While that list is an improvement on the usual list (by including /thr/), it misses out some rare alleged clusters:

/sr/ as in สฤต [L]srit and a whole swathe of poetic words.

/br/ as in the rare บฤงคบ [M]bring [L]khop

There are also a few words where ภร- is pronounced phr-.

Finally, there are the clusters restricted to English loanwords.

[Rionoir]

Instead of remembering EXCEPTIONS to the inherent ะ rule it is probably easier just to remember the rule itself (i.e., the times the word DOES take the tone from the first letter), which is aksawn soong or aksawn klaang + aksawn diaw. This results in a word which is middle tone + a tone based on the initial consonant.

Unless I'm misunderstanding akson diao, this is defeated by words like แสดง [M]sa[ML]daeng. The rule basically applies to consonant plus resonant.

When I say akson diao I'm only referring to akson dam diao. Sorry for the confusion, when I was studying that's the only time I heard the term used (akson dam diao/akson dam ku).

Therefore, the word แสดง wouldn't follow this rule, each syllable follows it's own inherent tone. (2nd syllable is technically [M] yea? ... May be spoken L? But that would be outside of any rules such as เขา)

[Richard W]

When I say akson diao I'm only referring to akson dam diao. Sorry for the confusion, when I was studying that's the only time I heard the term used (akson dam diao/akson dam ku).

Therefore, the word แสดง wouldn't follow this rule, each syllable follows it's own inherent tone. (2nd syllable is technically [M] yea? ... May be spoken L? But that would be outside of any rules such as เขา)

The 'L' within square brackets may mean 'long' or 'low'. As showing tone is obligatory, the 'L' is never ambiguous and avoids the ugliness of writing [M]sa[M]daaeng. I don't think we ever agreed default length rules at the inception of this forum, and none of the moderators has ever insisted on a consistent way of showing pronunications.

[sathitth]

Most well educated Thai people that I know don't care about tone rules. 

- How many percents of people are success in learn Thai by focusing on tone rules? 

- You can visit well-known universities in Thailand and ask students there about tone rules. 

- Talk to Thai people aboard and ask them about tone rules. 

 

If it is that important, we should study it since grade 1. I understand that people have different ways of learning the language.

 

www.linkedin.com/in/sathit-thongthumrong-84a46123

[sathitth]

On 9/12/2009 at 8:05 AM, Rionoir said:

While a lot of what you say is correct... most of my Thai friends also said they FAILED Thai in school. LoL  A lot of Thai cannot spell correctly, and they cannot read the tone from a word they do not know, BECAUSE of their lack of knowledge of the Thai language.  I would not look-up to a Thai who cannot tell you tone rules as a role model for one's Thai language studies.

Most well educated Thai people that I know don't care about tone rules. 

- How many percents of people are success in learn Thai by focusing on tone rules? 

- You can visit well-known universities in Thailand and ask students there about tone rules. 

- Talk to Thai people aboard and ask them about tone rules. 

 

If it is that important, we should study it since grade 1. I understand that people have different ways of learning the language.

 

www.linkedin.com/in/sathit-thongthumrong-84a46123

[Delight]

I struggled to learn the tones.

I knew that images are easier to remember than script.

So I distilled all the script and generated 2 charts

Where do I keep these charts -in my head.

I did this years ago. The charts are still there.

Initially you need to spend time studying them

I attach

PS I,ve just noticed a mistake. F for falling tone is absent. Never spotted it -till just now.

[Danil Ishimov]

Is it true that for example Chinese language has 4 tones and Thai can have <12 tones?