Has Thailand Made Progress? Thaksin Taunts

[frodo]

"I would like both my admirers and haters to think what good has been done over the past three years. Has the economy improved? What about justice and human rights? And is there fair treatment for bureaucrats?"

Economy: Regardless if Thaksin was here or not the economy is a global experience, not just a Thai one.

Justice/Human Rights: Justice seems to be heading in the right direction, though slow. When Thaksin's winning it's called justice, when he's on the losing end it's no longer fair or just. All criminals feel that way. Human rights? Looking at his human rights record, I would say a good improvement from previous administrations. Yes, there have been human rights issues, not denying that at all, but compared to his own administration, thousands are not being gunned down in his brand of justice.

Fair Treatment for Bureaucrats: Does he mean accountability? Nothing wrong with having bureaucrats being held accountable for their actions. While some do spend time in jail, such as those in the election commission, or perhaps his personal lawyers doing a little time for attempted bribery of the courts, he himself hasn't the gall to come back.

He can spin it all he wishes, but he's full of crap all the way around. Even with his own proxy government, nothing was done, and God forbid if he ever came back...it would certainly be far worse.

Just my opinion.

[Publicus]

Hitler had a great depression to help boost support for those more inclined to extremism didn't he? lol... just kidding, interesting though.

This isn't the first or the second valid farang reference to Hitler/Thaksin. The reference has been recurring over time, which is why there is a viability to it. Of course Thaksin isn't out to conquer the world, but for Thaksin Thailand itself will do just fine.

[andyww]

If Mr T was so good for the country can some one please explain why the powers to be eventually ousted him? He was pretty canny at putting as i see it all his people friends and relatives in top places..what happened?

The problem was, he didnt have enough friends in the right high places.

To the ruling elite in Thailand, backed by the most important person in the country, he was an unwanted outsider from the start. he was from the shady world of business, not from one of the families with inherited wealth and status.

These people wanted him out from the start and the reason he ended up being ousted was not because of his corruption but because those with their snouts in the trough saw the trough becoming emptier. Just one example of this, the police takings from bar owners to allow the bars to open late and perform other activities dramatically decreased because Thaksin implemented zoning and early closing and it was (for a relatively short time) actually enforced. Thats one small area where the extsting status quo was changing but overall the entire face of the system was slowly changing, with fewer opportunities for paybacks. Of course it was not always changing for the better. Thaksins policy of mass-shootings of drug dealers without trial was one area which was inexcusable and one of many area where he thought he had the power to do anything he wanted, which was a pretty dangerous situation.

One area where Thailand has dramtically declined since Thaksin, is the area of police corruption. The Police are pretty much out of control these days. In the Thaksin era things were heading in the right direction on this front, albeit slowly. Its irrelevant to compare the economic situation then and now of course, so Thaksin is an idiot for even mentioning this factor.

On the whole though, comparing the overall direction the country was heading in, it was a better outlook then than now. Thaksin was and is seriously flawed but maybe what the country needed to give the system a kick up the backside.

I cant really understand why so many people on here have so much venom against Thaksin. I can only assume they are misinformed. He was pretty bad but not all bad. Also many of the corruption accusations were jumped-up, although some were likely genuine. Maybe people just didnt like him closing the bars early...

[Siripon]

Education is now cheaper with the 15 year scheme, the land reform bill is underway, pensioners are now given 500 baht a month, price subsidies for farmers should reach far more than the 600,000 out of 5 million as in previous schemes.

The PM answers questions, both in Parliament and to the press and public.

Things are getting better and that's what worries Thaksin.

[brahmburgers]

When I try to picture the past three years WITH Thaksin as PM I see a one party totalitarian dictatorship absent any dissent or opposition, ruthless oppression and repression by a Soviet style judiciary, a state and economy melded into Thailand/Thaksin Inc; unprecedented, massive and shamelessly boastful corruption; news media that daily sing their praises of Thaksin's love of the people and of his magnificent leadership and benevolence, children in schools singing the glories and greatness of Thaksin, a national police force that runs amok to leave the population stripped helplessly bare, and Thaksin being re-elected by 93% of the vote--among numerous other horrors of a continued rule by Thaksin. In short, I see a Thailand being gang raped without limit by Thaksin & Co. All the wrong people would be in prison instead of the madman himself along with his slimey cronies.

agree 100%. There was a large billboard on a major intersection in my adopted town in northernmost Thailand. It was during T's spell at the helm, and showed him dressed in full royal regalia. It was a formal shot showing him straight faced in shoulder to floor royal garb as well as holding royal-looking implements, like a thanka. It looked as if an enlarged photo of HM had T's head superimposed on it. There are no limits to Thaksin's lust for absolute power.

Education is now cheaper with the 15 year scheme, the land reform bill is underway, pensioners are now given 500 baht a month, price subsidies for farmers should reach far more than the 600,000 out of 5 million as in previous schemes.

The PM answers questions, both in Parliament and to the press and public.

Things are getting better and that's what worries Thaksin.

Yes, things are better. Unfortunately, there's an on-going faction that's doing all it can to cause disharmony and rifts among Thais. Readers get one guess who they are. Hint: Thai language describes the color dark red as 'see luat mu' literally: 'color blood pig'

Edited September 21, 2009 by brahmburgers

[animatic]

Thaksin had had many friends in high places, BUT...

he had also burned so many 'friends with friends' over a relatively short period of time

that those chickens came back to roost. Plus the more he burned the more he

THOUGHT he could burn with impunity. Sondhi was just ONE of many examples,

but one of the most effective at revenge. But FAR from the only one.

Thaksin placed many of these same police higher ups in their chairs for his patronage or power control,

and nothing to do with their skills or seniority. One of the side effects of this is always increased corruption.

Currently the fight is to remove as many as possible from the 'salted deck of cards' Thaksin left.

And it has oh so much to do with MONEY.

Actually the police takings for longer bar openings went UP when he shortened the hours,

it just took a month or 3 till it wasn't being watched closely. Got the good press, but then back to

business as usual. It also cause more Thai's to get their places open and fewer farang managed places.

But in general made Bangkok a much less 24/7 kind of place.

It was just a faux moralism grafted to nationalism and based on a different model of graft as usual.

Hard to say Thaksin was any kind of a moralist, except maybe 'Opportunistic Moralist'.

He used moralism as a way to increase power or cash flow.

Has Thailand made progress?

Well considering all the strikes against it and factors beyond anyones control,

and their propensity to shoot their own foot in Western eyes,

it's impossible for ANY government to actually do better than keep it all afloat.

Add the Thaksin stirring of the pot of discontent, and it's a toxic brew for sure.

When economies go very bad, nationalism rises, and crime rises,

and the combination frees many, in their minds, to do more stupid, illogical things

than they would during good times. How can any government assert control of a

general mindset that is caused, or exacerbated by gargantuan external factors?

Edited September 21, 2009 by animatic

[animatic]

Education is now cheaper with the 15 year scheme, the land reform bill is underway, pensioners are now given 500 baht a month, price subsidies for farmers should reach far more than the 600,000 out of 5 million as in previous schemes.

The PM answers questions, both in Parliament and to the press and public.

Things are getting better and that's what worries Thaksin.

IN this world economy things can NOT be quantum leaps forward, but working with what they have there are definite improvements,

and ones with greater LONG TERM benefits and THAT last is much more important,in a land where looking far ahead holds low

pride of place and here and now opportunism is derigor. Inspite of fierce opposition from vested interests, there is progress.

Even as horse trading HAS to be done in real politics terms. Newin is a pain in the roids, BUT he keeps getting effective slap downs

for his pains. If Thaksin were removed from play, more obvious progress could be assessed.

Lets not forget re-doing the school children's milk system too.

They are trying to make the rice schemes actual benefit the farmers themselves more.

What gets the big press is those negative issues, but quietly in the back ground many long term decisions are made,

and will be of greater impact in the long term. Governments MUST think long term. Just compare PPP completely

MISSING the impending collapse of the world banking system 1 year ago.... just oblivious.

Thaksin as the 'great businessman', lost a bundle and his proxy party didn't even register that things were bad

outside of their own immediate desires for the master.

[Plus]

What's wrong with the economy? Outside it's the worst crisis since Great Depression, but in Thailand unemployment is minimal and when companies start rehiring, the workers are reluctant to come back.

Human rights - of course it's better, in Thaksin's days he was rallying the country not to show any mercy to dead drug dealers, he ordered an inconvenient lawyer to be abducted and killed by the police and next day declared that the man simply ran away from his wife.

Media freedom - there are half a dozen red publications and their own TV station, and they are not sued to bankruptcy by Abhisit.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

The real worry for Thaksin is that the country IS getting better, and he is part of the problem, not the solution.

[brahmburgers]

T espouses that he cares about Thailand and the Thai people.

Without any effort, I as a farang, can prove (via actions) that I care more than he does.

T claims he can shuttle money to poor Thais. Again, I can prove that, even tho I'm relatively poor for a farang, I get more money to Thais than T - certainly on a % of personal worth basis. The numbers are something like this: I've given roughly 20% of my net worth to Thais in terms of hand-outs, wages, donations within the past 10 years. What % has T given? No one knows for sure, but judging by the much publicized 1,000 baht he handed to a poor woman on one of his photo-op treks to a village, I'd say about 1/100,000th of 1%.

The money that got to rural Thailand during T's reign was arguably mostly lottery proceeds, over which T had control. It mostly went in to pu yai bans' pockets for personal purchases. And those village bosses were the ones who got their villages to vote for T - whether the votes were paid for, or otherwise. In contrast, the areas which didn't vote for T, got far less.

As for any of his personal wealth trickling down to the poor. I don't know, but I haven't heard mention if it's happened.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

He might win. He might not. But never by a landslide. That is because he has lost major face with millions of Thais and he is a corrupt COWARD. REAL strong heroic national leaders earn their moral authority by their deeds. Skipping out on charges, evacuating your family while launching a violent revolution, don't cut it.

Might be the way you see it JT, might even be the way you think most Thais should see it, but be assured it is not the way every rural Thai I have spoken to sees it. They see him as a victim of the same corrupt power cabal that threw out their democratically elected leader.

And they do not like it much.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

<snip>

... and God forbid if he ever came back...it would certainly be far worse.

<snip>

Why would it be worse? How would it be worse?

[KevinBloodyWilson]

<snip>

This isn't the first or the second valid farang reference to Hitler/Thaksin. The reference has been recurring over time, which is why there is a viability to it. Of course Thaksin isn't out to conquer the world, but for Thaksin Thailand itself will do just fine.

Fallacious proposition. The idea of a flat earth recurred for a very long time, but that didn't turn out to be true. The popularity of a concept does not guarantee its veracity.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

What's wrong with the economy? Outside it's the worst crisis since Great Depression, but in Thailand unemployment is minimal and when companies start rehiring, the workers are reluctant to come back.

I see. So outside of the fact that the economy is in a shit state, it's in a pretty good state... - right? :D

Human rights - of course it's better, in Thaksin's days he was rallying the country not to show any mercy to dead drug dealers, he ordered an inconvenient lawyer to be abducted and killed by the police and next day declared that the man simply ran away from his wife.

So how is it better now? Freedom of speech is better? Freedom of the press is better? Individual liberties better? LM prosecutions are fewer? How exactly is it better now?

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

:D

The real worry for Thaksin is that the country IS getting better...

:D

Cheers Plus, this made me laugh, and on a Monday morning that is never a bad thing

Edited September 21, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[Bagwan]

This isn't the first or the second valid farang reference to Hitler/Thaksin. The reference has been recurring over time, which is why there is a viability to it. Of course Thaksin isn't out to conquer the world, but for Thaksin Thailand itself will do just fine.

My memory isn't what it was but wasn't the Evil Ones PR machine touting him as the leader and saviour of ASEAN a few years ago?

[Wolfie]

Lets keep the thread on topic please guys

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It's a perfectly reasonable question really..!! Where is Thailand now..??

Agreed, when he was in power the economy was good and Thailand was ticking along quite nicely. However, forget the current economic climate around the world and surely everyone can see that since he has departed this place has gone into full meltdown.

Airport stormed and closed, political turmoil not seen for decades, an inept government (not democratically elected!). The list goes on and on.

Whether you like Thaksin or not, things (in my opinion) were a whole lot better when he was PM.

I laugh at the posts on here, "Thaksin is a criminal", "he's corrupt".. bla, bla, bla. Do you honestly believe that Thailand is in a better social state now..??

Yes, a few dodgy deals here and there, so what's unusual about that in Thai politics. Better the devil you know I say. It's just the elite of Thai society who wanted him out and as is normal they got their way. Money talks!

A lot of the posters on here need to get out of the bars and go and see the "real" Thailand. Ask around and see what the locals think about the state of their country now!!

[Credo]

The country is in a mess and it is not better without him. The corruption that he is accused of had been going on for a very, very long time. It continues now, but there is a long standing conspiracy of silence amount some of the upper echeleons of society. Under Thaksin, the noses in the trough changed and the other piggys started to squeal.

A pertinent question is would the country be better off if he returned? I very much doubt that it would be.

Thailand is Thailand. Not because of Thaksin, but in spite of him.

[Supernova]

For the better? What are you talking about ? I think most people feel something big is going to happen, but I don't feel it will be for the better. It seems to me things will get worse, perhaps much worse, first. I hope I am wrong.

I was merely pointing out that the 'end result' of whatever it is that's coming, hopefully, will be the catalyst for change needed to push this country forward in the right direction; or for the better so to speak. What I like to see is a major shift in attitudes and the adoption of a western style approach to doing things. I'm not suggesting the Thais abandon their own values, but the foundations of this country could definitely use some tweaking; it's long overdue. Thailand has a very weak political structure compared to many developed nations. The Powers That Be need to 'let go' at some point if progress is to be made. The "patronage system" which has persisted throughout Thai history is a disease and needs to be eliminated. No doubt, the situation will get worse before it gets any better. As to how bad it will get is anyone's guess at this point.

So get off your anti-Thaksin high horses already... The problem isn't Thaksin, but lies deep within the system itself.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Supernova

[frodo]

<snip>

... and God forbid if he ever came back...it would certainly be far worse.

<snip>

Why would it be worse? How would it be worse?

Given his propensity for extreme vindictiveness and ruthlessness against enemies, real or imagined, his desire to control and censor all media which portray him in any negative light, and nepotism just to name a few, would, at least in my opinion, create greater problems for Thailand. Yoshiwara summed it up very nicely earlier:

Never forget the point at which he was overthrown. It was when he was threatening to put his cronies into power to run the army and close all possible state power opposition to his criminal activities. In short he had state power almost within his grasp. All the talk of democracy etc is a whitewash...

[Insight]

Thailand's biggest ongoing problem is the political instability caused by a relatively small group of people under direct command from a fugitive in exile who can't even stomach a two year sentence no matter how it might boost his credibility in the long term.

If Thaksin can give any advice on how to reduce the influence or eliminate this group and its leader, I'm sure the remaining 99% of the country will be all ears.

Until then, this manipulated political turmoil will have to be an ongoing pain in the arse the country will simply have to weather.

[Rideau]

What's wrong with the economy? Outside it's the worst crisis since Great Depression, but in Thailand unemployment is minimal and when companies start rehiring, the workers are reluctant to come back.

Human rights - of course it's better, in Thaksin's days he was rallying the country not to show any mercy to dead drug dealers, he ordered an inconvenient lawyer to be abducted and killed by the police and next day declared that the man simply ran away from his wife.

Media freedom - there are half a dozen red publications and their own TV station, and they are not sued to bankruptcy by Abhisit.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

The real worry for Thaksin is that the country IS getting better, and he is part of the problem, not the solution.

I can't agree more with this reply. Precise and concise.

[Plus]

So how is it better now? Freedom of speech is better? Freedom of the press is better? Individual liberties better? LM prosecutions are fewer? How exactly is it better now?

I think you'd refuse to see that it's better regardless of any arguments.

Freedom of speech - in T-days people were sued left and right for billions, not happening anymore.

Freedom of press - there are half a dozen anti-government publications. In T-days he sued every media outlet even slightly critical.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

:D

Why don't you look at it through Thaksin's lawyers eyes, they've spent six months in jail, or former EC commissioners who were jailed, or Pojamarn, who was convicted of tax fraud, or Samak who tried to fool the court with fabricated evidence, or Thaksin himself who can't escape justice despite all his money and fan clubs everywhere.

[animatic]

So how is it better now? Freedom of speech is better? Freedom of the press is better? Individual liberties better? LM prosecutions are fewer? How exactly is it better now?

I think you'd refuse to see that it's better regardless of any arguments.

Freedom of speech - in T-days people were sued left and right for billions, not happening anymore.

Freedom of press - there are half a dozen anti-government publications. In T-days he sued every media outlet even slightly critical.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

:D

Why don't you look at it through Thaksin's lawyers eyes, they've spent six months in jail, or former EC commissioners who were jailed, or Pojamarn, who was convicted of tax fraud, or Samak who tried to fool the court with fabricated evidence, or Thaksin himself who can't escape justice despite all his money and fan clubs everywhere.

1st

I think the 1st issue is an affect of Bloodymindedness, if my friend's definitions are correct.

2nd

There was not public free speech if Thaksin objected he sued you into silence,

and then took his pound of flesh.

3rd

Thaksin changed the complete editorial slant of The Bangkok Post for gods sake,

From questioning him to the appearance of adoring him.

He sued a reporter and got them fired, and the editor fired.

4th

The Supreme Court was so cowed it didn't dare throw him out of office for OBVIOUS violations of the law.

Now he has been convicted and more on the way and he knows it.

Edited September 21, 2009 by animatic

[Jingthing]

<snip>

... and God forbid if he ever came back...it would certainly be far worse.

<snip>

Why would it be worse? How would it be worse?

If he does manage to ever regain power (Deity please forbid) he will NEVER again let anything happen to let it go.

In other words, if you like Chavez, you'll love Thaksin.

I do realize some people like Chavez's populist dictator for life style. That's what makes politics.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

The country is in a mess and it is not better without him. The corruption that he is accused of had been going on for a very, very long time. It continues now, but there is a long standing conspiracy of silence amount some of the upper echeleons of society. Under Thaksin, the noses in the trough changed and the other piggys started to squeal.

A pertinent question is would the country be better off if he returned? I very much doubt that it would be.

Thailand is Thailand. Not because of Thaksin, but in spite of him.

Seems like a couple of pretty good thoughts...

[Plus]

...there is a long standing conspiracy of silence amount some of the upper echeleons of society. Under Thaksin, the noses in the trough changed and the other piggys started to squeal.

If that theory was true, than why piggies who where squeezed out after the coup haven't came up with any substantial accusations?

[animatic]

What's wrong with the economy? Outside it's the worst crisis since Great Depression, but in Thailand unemployment is minimal and when companies start rehiring, the workers are reluctant to come back.

Human rights - of course it's better, in Thaksin's days he was rallying the country not to show any mercy to dead drug dealers, he ordered an inconvenient lawyer to be abducted and killed by the police and next day declared that the man simply ran away from his wife.

Media freedom - there are half a dozen red publications and their own TV station, and they are not sued to bankruptcy by Abhisit.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

The real worry for Thaksin is that the country IS getting better, and he is part of the problem, not the solution.

I can't agree more with this reply. Precise and concise.

Now Rideau, if only we can just pull the 'curtain' from coving the eyes of those

who can't see for their venetian blindness...

Ig'noir'e that square-headed-bloke behind the curtain,

the Great and Powerful OZ, er , Thaksin, will solve all!

It is in the end; theater of the absurd.

Edited September 21, 2009 by animatic

[KevinBloodyWilson]

I think you'd refuse to see that it's better regardless of any arguments.

Well, that's because I appear not to agree with you, not because you know anything about me or why I think what I think.

Freedom of speech - in T-days people were sued left and right for billions, not happening anymore.

Any facts in there, or just perceptions? If you are going to state things as fact you should support them.

Freedom of press - there are half a dozen anti-government publications. In T-days he sued every media outlet even slightly critical.

Now the government just threatens to close them down, or pressures the station to sack dissenting voices.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

Why don't you look at it through Thaksin's lawyers eyes, they've spent six months in jail, or former EC commissioners who were jailed, or Pojamarn, who was convicted of tax fraud, or Samak who tried to fool the court with fabricated evidence, or Thaksin himself who can't escape justice despite all his money and fan clubs everywhere.

Oh please... Tell me you aren't being serious. Prosecuting the Thaksin camp is no kind of evidence that justice prevails and influence cannot be bought in Thailand, it is evidence for exactly the reverse. You defeat yourself with your own argument.

It is clear you have strong views and that is good, we should all have strong views. 3 years ago I had the same views, but then a number of things happened which meant I was obliged to change those views and the underlying beliefs which engendered them. Now I see things differently.

Let me know when PAD are prosecuted for shutting down the airport last year and I will review the views and beliefs I have today.

[Siripon]

[

Let me know when PAD are prosecuted for shutting down the airport last year and I will review the views and beliefs I have today.

The prosecutor cannot act against the PAD until he gets the report from the police, they're waiting for that now.

Thaksin sued every one he could whilst in power- it's not a perception, it's a fact. He must have sued more people for more money than any living Thai, probably any living person.

[Publicus]

This isn't the first or the second valid farang reference to Hitler/Thaksin. The reference has been recurring over time, which is why there is a viability to it. Of course Thaksin isn't out to conquer the world, but for Thaksin Thailand itself will do just fine.

My memory isn't what it was but wasn't the Evil Ones PR machine touting him as the leader and saviour of ASEAN a few years ago?

Yeah quite, thanks--in all the internal chaos of the past three years I'd overlooked Thaksin's original 'bigger picture'. But Thaksin's grand and grandiose design went well beyond Thailand and ASEAN. Thaksin saw himself as the power point man of all of East Asia.

Thaksin in power had his people trying to tout him as the new super-Mahathir (also a Dr.) who ruled over Malaysia for something like 20 or 22 years before stepping down about 5 or 6 years ago. As Malaysian PM Mahathir was outspokenly critical of the Western models of democracy and political economy, a trait that made him popular throughout East Asia, (Mahathir none the less quietly cooperated well with Western governments and investors.)

Unlike Thaksin however Mahathir actually brought Malaysia into the modern world, leaving his succesor PM Badawi with a fundamentally stable pluralist society (Malays, Indians, Chinese) while retaining some reasonable semblance of democracy. (The railroading of the former deputy PM Anwar Ibrahim remains a glaring flaw of Mahathir's rule.)

(In the same vein, has anyone seen the new Malaysia tourism and investment promos on TV that point out that Malaysia has a stable democracy and the rule of law for the long term? Being Thailand's well developing neighbor (and the neighbor of Singapore) I'd say it's a clever selling point, even if it might be a bit heavy on the side of Sharia law.)

Thaksin did envisage himself as the Grand Moral and Political Leader of East Asia itself. Thaksin however got so caught up in his domestic machinations that he never got out of the starting gate on that score either.

While Mahathir simply enjoyed speaking his mind about the nosey and invasive West, and people throughout the region liked that, Thaksin instead is quite the meglomaniac.