Existence

[penelope]

So many physicists believe the "universe" was created by a big bang. Fair enough. What I wanna know is what created the big bang, what existed before the big bang, even if there was just an infinite expanse of nothingness(kind of a mind spinner because AFAIC even an infinite vaccum is "something"), where did the materials for the big bang come from.

[buadhai]

Panthip? The Shed? Big-C?

Serioulsy, matter and energy are just different forms of the same stuff. The "Big Bang" was just the beginning of the conversion of huge amounts of energy into matter. It is not meaningful to talk about what happened before the Big Bang. There is and can be no information remaing about such a period, if there ever was one.

[Abandon]

According to Buddhism the Big Bang is a part of a cycle of expansion and contraction. In science this is called the Big Bang-Big Crunch and gained a bit of popularity a few years ago, but has fallen into disfavour more recently.

Interestingly in the Buddhist cosmos, this physical realm is not the only one, and when it Cruches, the heavenly realms persist. Later they too Crunch until all gone. Then the universe expands again, layer by layer from the most refined heavenly realms down. The beings born into those realms are still governed by their past kamma.

In science the main theory about it is String-theory. This proposes that there are 11 dimensions, and anything that appears here is tied to the other dimensions too. The theory does allow for some supposition of what was before the Big Bang, but nothing very concrete. The other dimensions are very small, and are wrapped in upon themselves, though equidistant to all parts of our own dimension. Curiously, this describes Buddhist heavenly realms quite well, as Devas can get to anyehere in their heavenly realm or below, instantly - meaning that there is no distance.

Newer than that is an adaptation of String-theory called Branes theory. Here, the dimensions are like membranes . It allows for infinite universes each with different laws fo physics. The membranes are rippled and so when 2 collided the rippled parts touched first, accounting for the 'lumpy' formation of this universe with its clusters of matter....

The thing that all these ideas have in common is that the Big Bang was not the beginning of everything, only of this dimension/universe.

I have a documentary of it in the hub - mgNewman- suprised we have never seen you in the hub....

[penelope]

But what I am trying to get at is where "everything" came from in the first place.

You can have big bangs, and expansions and contractions etc... over periods of time..but these are just events that were fueled by matter and energy..aka "stuff". Has "something" always existed, or was there "nothing" before that "something". Surely even the concept of "nothing" is contradictory..even a infinite, endless vaccum is something..maybe my human brain just wasn't designed to be able to think in the direction of the answer

[buadhai]

In this context the terms you are using ("something", "nothing", "periods of time", "always") have no meaning. All of these things need a point of reference. "Before" the Big Bang no point of rerence exists for any of these concepts.

Many people find comfort in religious explanations for what is unknowable.

[penelope]

In this context the terms you are using ("something", "nothing", "periods of time", "always") have no meaning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thats why i used to quotes..unfortunately i had to use words, that carry meaning ,to try and convey a question..it's an awkward pose.

ahhh.... "the unknown".....thats what I am seeking. Come on, I'm sure someone on this forum has the answer

[Sir Burr]

The "Big Bang" started with a "singularity".

Thailand was in there somewhere (just to make this thread Thai related).

Edited March 24, 2005 by Sir Burr

[autonomous_unit]

I would not be surprised if someone here thinks they have the answer, but I would be surprised if they actually did.

As Sir Burr and mgnewman said, the theoretical models around the Big Bang describe how space itself started out as a singularity and expanded. These models try to explain the peculiar physical observations we've accumulated, looking from the inside outward. It does not say that the Big Bang started in a vacuum, but rather that the Big Bang started the universe itself. We have no observations from outside this bubble of space-time, so we cannot have any scientific theories about some context beyond it.

Whether the Big Bang happened in some kid's chemistry set, or some solipsist's imagination, or in a big block of cheese, we cannot know without some breakthrough in our observational methods... One explanation for the presence and commonality of religious thought about origins is indeed that human nature has a deep discomfort when confronted with such an absolute wall of uncertainty or unknowing. We like to put labels and stories on everything!

[buadhai]

One explanation for the presence and commonality of religious thought about origins is indeed that human nature has a deep discomfort when confronted with such an absolute wall of uncertainty or unknowing. We like to put labels and stories on everything!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bravo. Well said.

[Shola]

According to Buddhism the Big Bang is a part of a cycle of expansion and contraction. In science this is called the Big Bang-Big Crunch and gained a bit of popularity a few years ago, but has fallen into disfavour more recently.

Interestingly in the Buddhist cosmos, this physical realm is not the only one, and when it Cruches, the heavenly realms persist. Later they too Crunch until all gone. Then the universe expands again, layer by layer from the most refined heavenly realms down. The beings born into those realms are still governed by their past kamma.

In science the main theory about it is String-theory. This proposes that there are 11 dimensions, and anything that appears here is tied to the other dimensions too. The theory does allow for some supposition of what was before the Big Bang, but nothing very concrete. The other dimensions are very small, and are wrapped in upon themselves, though equidistant to all parts of our own dimension. Curiously, this describes Buddhist heavenly realms quite well, as Devas can get to anyehere in their heavenly realm or below, instantly - meaning that there is no distance.

Newer than that is an adaptation of String-theory called Branes theory. Here, the dimensions are like membranes . It allows for infinite universes each with different laws fo physics. The membranes are rippled and so when 2 collided the rippled parts touched first, accounting for the 'lumpy' formation of this universe with its clusters of matter....

The thing that all these ideas have in common is that the Big Bang was not the beginning of everything, only of this dimension/universe.

I have a documentary of it in the hub -  mgNewman- suprised we have never seen you in the hub....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oooooh Pandit! You sound like you've been reading the same books as me!

I recall the existance of P-Branes aswell!

Let me on what books you've read, I just love this subject!

Sho'

[orchis]

God only knows who created this mess

[StateSix]

A good book to explain this and evolution and all those science things you wondered about but were too afraid to ask is 'A Short History of Nearly Everything' by Bill Bryson. It is written in Bills usual witty, easy to read style, although it still gets deep at times. Good introduction for the layperson.

For Astrophysics stuff only you could try 'A Brief History of Time' by Stephen Hawking. He does a good job of simplifying very complex ideas, but it is still a harder read than Bill Brysons' and doesn't cover any other sciences.

Or you could read the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah etc for an alternative view (don't want to offend any Creationists out there!!)

[Shola]

A good book to explain this and evolution and all those science things you wondered about but were too afraid to ask is 'A Short History of Nearly Everything' by Bill Bryson.  It is written in Bills usual witty, easy to read style, although it still gets deep at times.  Good introduction for the layperson.

For Astrophysics stuff only you could try 'A Brief History of Time' by Stephen Hawking.  He does a good job of simplifying very complex ideas, but it is still a harder read than Bill Brysons' and doesn't cover any other sciences.

Or you could read the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah etc for an alternative view (don't want to offend any Creationists out there!!) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks StateSix

I've read all stephen Hawkings books, good but hard on the 'ol noggin!

I'll pick up that Bill Bryson book as I've seen it in asia books.

Tried reading the Bible on more than one occasion, unfortunatly I end up alternativly crying with laughter or ranting to myself a few pages in!

[Kremlin]

I would not be surprised if someone here thinks they have the answer, but I would be surprised if they actually did. 

As Sir Burr and mgnewman said, the theoretical models around the Big Bang describe how space itself started out as a singularity and expanded.  These models try to explain the peculiar physical observations we've accumulated, looking from the inside outward. It does not say that the Big Bang started in a vacuum, but rather that the Big Bang started the universe itself. We have no observations from outside this bubble of space-time, so we cannot have any scientific theories about some context beyond it.

Whether the Big Bang happened in some kid's chemistry set, or some solipsist's imagination, or in a big block of cheese, we cannot know without some breakthrough in our observational methods... One explanation for the presence and commonality of religious thought about origins is indeed that human nature has a deep discomfort when confronted with such an absolute wall of uncertainty or unknowing. We like to put labels and stories on everything!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are use to knowing that everything has a calculatable size. Its uncomprehensible to think that the universe has no beginning and no end, this is in reference to time and distance. Thats why we have religion and the big bang theory, its easier to accept that Zeus farted and created the universe, but where did Zeus come from? What did I create when I had a big bang in that girl from Happy-a-go-go? Was the big-bang made in Taiwon? Who made Taiwon.

Anyway here's my awnser:

The universe wasn't created

it will never cease to exist

The universe doesn't have a center

nor does it have an end.

To think of it is sublime

to wage war over it is human nature.

Anyhow, Bye

[SEAtramp]

There is no understanding in laymens terms to the time before time

Indeed there is no formula to date that can equate it in terms of relativity. Simply because realativity did not exsist. (How long is a mile that does not exist)

No one knows, nor can one speculate with any formula what was before time. The same can be said, whats at the end of the universe ( a brick wall maybe, but who built it and whats on the other side)what is the end infinite in terms of physics is something recurring by means of an equation. But only gives that solution in the understanding of our limited knowledge of time under the rules of physics that govern our moment in time.

http://www.mightymall.com/1st3seconds/atlantis.html

[Insight]

ahhh.... "the unknown".....thats what I am seeking. Come on, I'm sure someone on this forum has the answer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try asking the same question here!

[buadhai]

There's a good reason why Steven Hawking called his book "A Brief History Of Time". Time, as we know it, began with the big bang. Before that, no time. No time means no space. (You can't have one without the other.) So, before the big bang there was no time or space. If you can imagine a universe with no time or space, you have a good idea of what it was like before the big bang.

[Jockstar]

Some off you guys smoke to much. I reckon i should start again. Very deep.

[buadhai]

  Very deep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, without time there is no space. Without space, there is no "deep". Again, sorry.

[suegha]

Big bang or not - it may seem overly simple but God created time, space, the universe and everything as we know it. We exist governed by the laws He created.

เสือ

[Jockstar]

Big bang or not - it may seem overly simple but God created time, space, the universe and everything as we know it.  We exist governed by the laws He created.

เสือ

Can you prove that god exists? Dont think so. we will probably never know. Anyway. if they ever prove that life exists on other planets, Then all religion goes out the window.

[buadhai]

Big bang or not - it may seem overly simple but God created time, space, the universe and everything as we know it.  We exist governed by the laws He created.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I mentioned, some people take comfort in religion to explain the unknowable.

I have no problem with that if it gives one peace.

Personally, I revel in the unknowable....

[Vit42]

What existed before the big bang doesn't matter (no pun intended). Whether you explain it with scientific theory or religion, there's always going to be the question of what existed before those answers... and so on, and so on.

The only relevance in your life is how you live it. Where you came from and where your going isn't so important when you haven't a choice in the matter. The only choice we have is in the journey. Standing still thinking about how it all started will only waste precious time on your journey, or even worse, get you runned over!

My book recommendation that explains it all is of course The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Shola]

Time is a man made principle.

Before man, no time.

[ArtfulD]

Time is a man made principle.

Before man, no time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Time I think is mans attempt to break up naturally occuring cycles into segments more manageable and convienient for his living. "Time" exists whether or not man is here, the natural cycles that is earth revolving etc will continue regardless if we are around. Things change continously and "Time" is mans attempt at defining the change as I said above into segments he can quantify. 1 year of change, 10 years of change, a million years of change...The time system man has created however does work out nicely in Physics and equations that use time, if the time segments we used was not accurate then how could we use such simple equations as Speed = Distance / Time. If time does not exist how would you define speed? The rate of change from you being in one location and another location?

[FreedomDude]

I'm reading a great book right now that does a great job of explaining many of the recent discoveries in physics, cosmology, relativity, etc. Incredibly interesting stuff. Numerous great reviews from a wide variety of sources on this one.

Brian Greene: The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846

Edited March 24, 2005 by FreedomDude

[Abandon]

mgnewman said:

If you can imagine a universe with no time or space, you have a good idea of what it was like before the big bang.

What what was like???

[buadhai]

mgnewman said:

If you can imagine a universe with no time or space, you have a good idea of what it was like before the big bang.

What what was like???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point!

I think it's just like it was before you were born. Remember that?

[maikee]

I've pondered this subject since I guess I was 8 years old. Back then, I tried to grapple with what infinity meant.. the imaginary line of where things had to "stop" was a brick wall in my mind. I tried to imagine what was beyond the brick wall. I kept running into brick walls Since then, lots of good PBS shows on the subject. I saw the PBS show on The Elegant Universe based on Briane Greene's book by the same name. I also read his latest "The Fabric of the Cosmos" as well. Great reading.

It did get me to think though about what happens when you die though. I'm not "religious". But then I'd like to think there was something on the "other side". Just the idea of going to the long black sleep makes me a uncomfortable while I'm awake It would be nice if there was something more to all of this than just a bunch of energy/matter rattling around with the occasional creation of something that can try and understand it all.... then, in the blink of a cosmic eye, it is gone.

Anyway, for me Quantum Physics kind of gives me hope that there is something else besides living and dying. There's no reason why all those vibrating strings that make up your "self" can't continue to exist in some sort of "consiousness" on/in some other plane/dimension once your physical being ceases to exist. Otherwise... all of this is just a big waste of time (and space)

[autonomous_unit]

...

Just the idea of going to the long black sleep makes me a uncomfortable while I'm awake 

...

Otherwise... all of this is just a big waste of time  (and space) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am drawn to the idea that our discomfort with the Big Bang is the same perspective problem as with Death. The very idea of "the other side" comes from our unwillingness to conceive of "me" no longer being there to observe it and delimit it. Grief is kind of like that too... people disappear but we ache with this person-shaped hole in our worldview until it slowly collapses into abstraction.

I try to steer clear of such topics over drinks, because too many people get riled up by my belief that there is no purpose, nor soul, nor consciousness other than the flickering patterns cooking in our little self-absorbed brains. They want to cure me, or save me, or assure me of life's meaning, assuming I must be distraught to have such ideas.

Similarly, I cannot fathom how life could be a "waste of time" just because there might not be some guy writing the script, or keeping score, or handing out prizes at the end... it seems pretty cool all on its own, if you ask me.