Raw/unpasteurised Goat's Milk Wanted In Bangkok

[piki]

Hi!

anybody knows where to buy raw/unpasteurised goat's milk and cow's milk in bangkok?

raw cheese too

thanks

[Maizefarmer]

Sadly not - Thai law forbids retail sale of raw or unpasturised milk - mainly because og high Asian intolerence to specific milk proteins - though that is slowly changing with more and more milk fat and dairy products in their Westernised diets (e.g. pizza's cheese).

However some dairy farmers do discreetly sell it - I know a dairy farmer who sells raw milk, cooled and sealed in plastic packets in Korat - but no-one in Bkk. Raw milk is the only thing we have ever used at home. Tastes like milk should - God only knows what happens to the stuff when I send it to the co-op to get processed and bottled!

[aree2]

Sadly not - Thai law forbids retail sale of raw or unpasturised milk - mainly because og high Asian intolerence to specific milk proteins - though that is slowly changing with more and more milk fat and dairy products in their Westernised diets (e.g. pizza's cheese).

However some dairy farmers do discreetly sell it - I know a dairy farmer who sells raw milk, cooled and sealed in plastic packets in Korat - but no-one in Bkk. Raw milk is the only thing we have ever used at home. Tastes like milk should - God only knows what happens to the stuff when I send it to the co-op to get processed and bottled!

It's not the proteins in milk which many Asians find difficult to tolerate; it's the sugar lactose

This is because the enzyme needed to digest lactose isn't produced by the gut cells of many adults Asians; it's produced by them as infants while they're breast-feeding, but not when they get older, unless they're constantly fed milk in their diet

when you drink milk etc but don't have lactase in your gut, bacteria in your colon ferment the lactose for you - but at the cost of bloating the colon with hydrogen, carbon dioxide, and methane - which cause discomfort etc etc

Lactose isn't destroyed by heat, so pasteurisation isn't carried out to make the milk easier to digest. It's done to make the milk safe to drink. Pasteurisation kills harmful bacteria, which are alas common everywhere e.g. Salmonella (severe food poisoning); Mycobacterium tuberculosis (rarer, but cause TB) and Brucella (horrible prolonged undulating fevers)

I agree about the unfortunate change in the taste, but don't think I'll chasing after raw milk unless the supplier can certify that the products I'm buying have been checked, and found to be free of these kinds of bacteria at least.

[Maizefarmer]

Sadly not - Thai law forbids retail sale of raw or unpasturised milk - mainly because og high Asian intolerence to specific milk proteins - though that is slowly changing with more and more milk fat and dairy products in their Westernised diets (e.g. pizza's cheese).

However some dairy farmers do discreetly sell it - I know a dairy farmer who sells raw milk, cooled and sealed in plastic packets in Korat - but no-one in Bkk. Raw milk is the only thing we have ever used at home. Tastes like milk should - God only knows what happens to the stuff when I send it to the co-op to get processed and bottled!

It's not the proteins in milk which many Asians find difficult to tolerate; it's the sugar lactose

This is because the enzyme needed to digest lactose isn't produced by the gut cells of many adults Asians; it's produced by them as infants while they're breast-feeding, but not when they get older, unless they're constantly fed milk in their diet

when you drink milk etc but don't have lactase in your gut, bacteria in your colon ferment the lactose for you - but at the cost of bloating the colon with hydrogen, carbon dioxide, and methane - which cause discomfort etc etc

Lactose isn't destroyed by heat, so pasteurisation isn't carried out to make the milk easier to digest. It's done to make the milk safe to drink. Pasteurisation kills harmful bacteria, which are alas common everywhere e.g. Salmonella (severe food poisoning); Mycobacterium tuberculosis (rarer, but cause TB) and Brucella (horrible prolonged undulating fevers)

I agree about the unfortunate change in the taste, but don't think I'll chasing after raw milk unless the supplier can certify that the products I'm buying have been checked, and found to be free of these kinds of bacteria at least.

What?? - it most certainly is a protein issue, Aree2. Perhaps I should have said "Asian intolerence to specific milk lactose proteins ........" , or "Asian intolerence to specific milk proteins contained in the lactose ....." - would that be acceptable?

To requote your statement:

"Lactose isn't destroyed by heat, so pasteurisation isn't carried out to make the milk easier to digest. It's done to make the milk safe to drink. Pasteurisation kills harmful bacteria, which are alas common everywhere e.g. Salmonella (severe food poisoning); Mycobacterium tuberculosis (rarer, but cause TB) and Brucella (horrible prolonged undulating fevers) ...... "

..... fair enough, but again, it's largely the lack of enzmes required to break down "certain proteins", or if you wish, "the lack of certain enzymes required to break down [certain] proteins"

If one wishes to get into the nuts & bolts & chemsitry of all this with its fancy tech names - its all quite boring - I wrote it all up a couple years back on this section of TV, but however or whatever terminology one wishes to use ........ it most certainly does come down to a protein issue!

Edited October 4, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

Maizefarmer, like you, I am not an expert in chemistry, however….

“it most certainly is a protein issue” - near enough, but not in the way you indicate.

“Perhaps I should have said "Asian intolerence to specific milk lactose proteins ........"” – no.

“or "Asian intolerence to specific milk proteins contained in the lactose ....."” – no.

Lactose is a sugar (combination of two sugars actually), not a protein. People suffering lactose intolerance are lacking an enzyme (a catalyzing protein) called lactase. They are intolerant to lactose because of insufficient lactase. Lactase helps to break down lactose.

So you are correct to say it is a protein problem but it certainly is not intolerance to a protein.

I wholly concur with Arran2.

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Okay - thats a fair and accurate comment: if I had anticipated the conversation to go down this route it would perhaps have been a good idea that I seperated the 2 issues in my first reply (i.e. lactose intolerence versus protein intolerence - as 2 distinct issues - which medicaly speaking they are).

I didn't do that - keeping it simple to the point - and it was because, though lactose intolerence (and how you described it) are indeed issues, in fact in terms of the amount of folk affected in Thailand lactose intolerence would also be correct to say that it is a bigger issue than protein introlerence. My reply though initialy, was in respect of the ban on raw milk sales - and that is down to protein intolerence versus lactose intolerence - because of the potential for allergy reactions (anaphalactic shock - which rural areas where treatment cannot be effected easily). This is why the Thai government has been reluctant to allow reatil sales of raw milk to the public.

[bina]

im intrigued... the pasteuriziing creates a problem for protein allergic people? or affects teh lactose for latose intolerant people -two different things- one , the person lacks the enzyme , like me and my mother and sister; two , the person is allergic, meaning, even particles of milk by product can cause them problems even tdeath.._

so what are the differences between the two?

i agree that it is best to get unpasteurized milk from a certified milker whose goats/cows are tested, and the milk is tested daily, etc... but actually, i mostly drank milk straight from my goats' teats, with no problems.. still dont know the answer to 'is brucellosis a common disease in thailand' and as for tb, in israel fortunately not an occurrence (dont confuse with johnnes disease of goats that is called paratubuerculosis, which is supposedly not a zoonoses)but dont know about thailand (ramdom chance once wrote about all that, inreference to his dairy cows...)...

and how many small dairy farms in thailand follow procedures,tests, hygiene? (how many small dairy farms are there actually?)

and i agree, nothing like frothing foamy warm milk straight from the source. without my goats, im back to not drinking milk again.

bina

israel

[Maizefarmer]

Doesn’t create the problem Bina – its there from the start – pasturisation reduces protein count – but it does not eliminate it or together. If you’re protein intolerant you’re going to re-act – pasturisied or not, but the re-action has the potential to be siginificantly worse if raw milk is consumed – it can make the difference between a life & death reaction.

Yes, lactose and protein intolerance are 2 different things: the guys replied in the context of lactose intolerance – not in the context of protein tolerance (and things only got worse when I confused the 2 in my second reply instead of making it clear that the problem in so far as raw milk sales go, is the protein issue, not the lactose issue – although that’s not to say that lactose is not an issue – it is, just that its not why raw milk retail sale is legislated out – and the inevitable happened …….)

Your comment – “ even particles of milk by product can cause them problems even to death……”

That is protein intolerance (as opposed to lactose intolerance) – or as many refer to it, milk allergy. Not the same as lactose intolerance. Lactose intolerance gives you an upset stomach and a runny gut – but it’s unlikely to kill you, whereas protein intolerance can kill you.

Yes – many folk who are cows milk protein intolerant are not goats milk protein intolerant – the amounts of protein in goats milk are less, and the protein shape/size and surface is a different – and its detail in these differences that enable many folk who are intolerant of cows milk to consume the goats milk without re-acting.

Brucellosis – big problem in Thailand? Nope, cows are tested annually and if positive are slaughtered ……. well, should be tested and should be slaughtered. In dairy herds farmers monitor more so than in beef herds.

How many dairy farmers test for anything?

Many don’t test for much anywhere near as often as they should, other than for mastitis (which most dairy farmers check on daily) – chances are that unless the cow is evidently/visually unwell, any problem (that transfers in/through the milk) is probably more likely to turn up in monitoring at the co-op or the processing plant – at which point the co-op then starts sampling everyone’s milk on delivery to id the farmer. The good thing about not monitoring dairy cows is that anything wrong with the milk often reflects in the cows’ general poor health one way or another – they often perform so badly that they just aren’t even worth managing and either the cow or the farmer goes out of business in due course – often the farmer if he persists in keeping the cow. So one way or the other the problem doesn’ t last to long on an individual farmer basis – if the co-op doesn’t get him, he becomes a victim of his on poor discipline and management.