Backpacker Murders: Father Pleads For Justice

[kat]

I am sick to my stomach. This does not look good folks.

[Golf]

I think...he will walk...

Golf

[bkkmadness]

I think he'll walk too, with no reprisal from anyone despite what's been suggested here by some posters. Sickening really, the story would be laughable if not so tragic.

[kat]

of course, the HUGE difference in these 2 posts are that all three of Golf's examples ended in DEATH, not merely a few dollars changing hands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another difference is that my examples were first hand. If anyone wanted to find three examples of travesties of justice gleaned from the news, one could just as easily use google and simply change the name of the locale (for example: unarmed, murdered/shot/choked by police New York/Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, etc.). Then, follow the case timelines and choose only the cases where the offending party is acquitted. Finally, make a broad generalization on how it applies to the entire society or locale in question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heng, just to let you know there are other countires in the world, not just USA and LoS, and yes there are injustices in them all, but in some more than others

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely. However I don't want to make broad open ended, often one sided, negative generalizations (unlike a lot of people around here) about any country, much less those I have spent little time in -or spent a lot of time in, albeit in one's own personal microcosm- or know fewer than some thousands or more of its residents, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heng, your example is ridiculous. You do not need to know less than "thousands of residents" to make comparisons. Basically, you are trying to enforce the viewpoint that all things are equal, all of the time. That is the biggest generalization and mind-control excuse ofall time. ALL research starts with generalizations, which is then substantiated with observation and frequency.

Yes, there are travesties of justice quite possibly everywhere. There are definitely plenty of travesties of justice in the U.S.; the death penalty is but one example. However, after reading literally hundreds upon hundreds of pages of research on both justice systems, the Thai system makes the worst miscarriages

of American justice look like a ######ing picnic. If you don't want to compare actual differences rather than similarities that are common to almost everywhere else on earth, then that's your myopic viewpoint.

TIT, where stupid cops walk on flimsy defense excuses, at a very high rate of frequency.

Edited April 1, 2005 by kat

[Backpack_thailand]

Greets again from Kan folks,

Well, my sniffing around today trying to find out what's happening in regards to sentencing has resulted in the amazing answer of next month...! All the bulls*it today was just "preliminary sentencing", whatever the &lt;deleted&gt; that means!

All I could get off certain officials was "coming soon, coming soon"...yeah, well, so is Christmas! End of May is the expected date of sentencing.

Wonder how far one man can run in 56 days...?

I also got the usual "warnings" to remember that I have to live around here but I think that's just to cover a few local &lt;deleted&gt;, there's plenty of expats following this locally and nothing has happened so far. I don't think even a Thai copper would be THAT stupid, would they...?

So we continue to wait.........ho hum!

[RDN]

From the Daily Telegraph, here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../31/nkwai31.xml

'My spy murdered British backpack couple'

From Andrew Chant, Kanchanaburi

(Filed: 31/03/2005)

The Thai police sergeant accused of the murders of the backpackers Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd claimed yesterday: "It wasn't me it was my informant."

"I did not have a gun. I had pawned it," he said. "If I had to use a gun I had to borrow from colleagues or go without. But my spy, Mr Ya, had a .38 revolver."

Wearing a white jacket bearing the emblem of the Royal Thai Police, Master Sergeant Somchai Wisetsingh told the trial that Mr Ya [Thai for Mr Drugs] gunned down the British backpackers by the River Kwai.

"Nobody knows Mr Ya, not even my boss. He is one of my spies. I cover for him. I do not know his phone number, address or real name. But I have used him on 10 investigations," he told the court in Kanchanaburi, 100 miles north-west of Bangkok.

On the night of the murders on Sept 9 last year he admitted that Adam Lloyd became angry and hit him and he said Mr Ya wanted revenge.

Wisetsingh claimed: "But I told him not to hurt them. I told him just to take me home."

He added: "On September 10 he called me to say he had 'done' the two westerners. He said people might think I had done it and I should be careful.

"I did not report that I had been attacked by Adam to my senior officers. Many colleagues had phoned to tell me I was wanted and I did not want to be arrested.

"There are 2,000 people in Kanchanaburi prison on drugs charges and I have put half of them in there. I did not want to go to prison."

He claimed that was why he fled to Burma where he remained for a month until he was handed over by officers of the Karen National Liberation Army, who fought for the British against the Japanese in the Second World War and who are still clashing with the Burmese military junta.

Wisetsingh told a packed courtroom, in which Graham, Joyce and Alyssa Arscott - the father, mother and older sister of Miss Arscott - were seated, that he was coerced into confessing.

"I was in a room full of police generals. They told me that it was in the national interest of Thailand that I should confess. If I did, they said, they would look after me."

The sergeant, who was named the area's "outstanding policeman" in 1997, 2003 and 2004, said he was also forced into a television interview in which he apologised to Miss Arscott's family.

He added: "At the time I was weak from living in the jungle and wanted to go to hospital, but they would not let me go to hospital unless I confessed." Wisetsingh denies murdering Mr Lloyd, 25, from Torquay, Devon, with two shots to the head and stomach, and then running down Miss Arscott, 23, from Ashburton, Devon, with his car and shooting her in the face, neck and chest.

The murders took place at a spot half way between The Bridge over the River Kwai, which is now a tourist attraction, and the Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery for Allied victims of the Burma-Siam death railway.

Wisetsingh faces a mandatory death sentence for murdering Miss Arscott to cover up a crime.

He told the court that on the night in question he had arrived at his own restaurant, the S & S, after 10pm. He recognised and said hello to the backpackers, who had been to his restaurant two days earlier.

"They played snooker together," he said. "I did not drink very much as I had to look after the customers. They stayed until 2am and Adam was very drunk. I was not interested in Vanessa." He added: "At one point Adam went to the toilets and then walked straight out of the restaurant. I went to my car to give Adam a lift and Adam got in. I drove only about 50 yards and I saw Vanessa. I stopped, thinking either to give her a lift as well or to drop Adam so he could walk her home.

"The two of them started arguing. Then Adam walked round to where I was sitting in the car and punched me in the face. He also shut the car door on my leg. I got out of the car and Adam chased me round it. I fell over and Adam kicked and spat at me. I lost consciousness.

"The next thing I knew was two friends coming to help me. One was a police colleague. The other was Mr Ya, my police spy. They wanted revenge.

"I said, 'Don't hurt them. Just take me home'."

Wisetsingh then said he lent his car to Mr Ya, whom he had used on drugs investigations, and went to bed. When he woke up in the morning his car was parked outside his house. Later, after being treated for a cracked rib and black eye in hospital, he got the call from Mr Ya telling him what he had done and he ran away.

Wisetsingh said he crossed into Burma looking for a rich friend who had land there but he got lost.

After 20 days he said he was seized by Karen rebels and was taken to their leader who told him there was a 200,000 baht (£2,700) price on his head, dead or alive.

The trial continues.

[bkkmadness]

"Nobody knows Mr Ya [Mr Drug], not even my boss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and then......

Pol Sergeant Surin Tako-Yai, 37, told the court: “Yes. I had met Mr Ya on four occasions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[penzman]

I had 6000 baht stolen from my wallet by some delivery guys while I signed the delivery papers. I went to Patong police station and reported it. The policeman just said to me "I don't believe you" and walked off. If you get shat on in Thailand, you're on your own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd show up at the store and have a serious talk with their boss

[penzman]

"Nobody knows Mr Ya [Mr Drug], not even my boss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and then......

Pol Sergeant Surin Tako-Yai, 37, told the court: “Yes. I had met Mr Ya on four occasions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a load of crap

[bkkmadness]

Surely one of those testimonies needs to be thrown out of court? The prosecutor should be staright on that one.

Just curious as me and a mate were discussing this earlier, do the Thai courts work with the 12 man jury system?

Might seem a stupid question but we didn't know, not that it matters I expect, just more people to pay off/threaten.

[phuketsiam]

no jury, just a judge as I understand it

[mbkudu]

no jury, just a judge as I understand it

Well, that makes it easier; just one person to pay off instead of 12.

[sriracha john]

After 20 days he said he was seized by Karen rebels and was taken to their leader who told him there was a 200,000 baht (£2,700) price on his head, dead or alive.

The trial continues.[/size]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First I've seen of this. There could have been a lot of frustation avoided if the bounty had simply been limited to 200K on his head, dead. Small price to avoid all of the subsequent agony.

[sriracha john]

"Nobody knows Mr Ya [Mr Drug], not even my boss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and then......

Pol Sergeant Surin Tako-Yai, 37, told the court: “Yes. I had met Mr Ya on four occasions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

he's calling his fellow police co-hort a "nobody"?

[sriracha john]

Surely one of those testimonies needs to be thrown out of court?  The prosecutor should be staright on that one.

Just curious as me and a mate were discussing this earlier, do the Thai courts work with the 12 man jury system?

  Might seem a stupid question but we didn't know, not that it matters I expect, just more people to pay off/threaten.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They don't have ANY jury trials in Thailand.... that's my knowledge. It's all done by judges.

[xbusman]

Isnt the jury thing strictly American? I thought it was some odd idea of Jefferson because of abuses in the colonies due to the low quality of English judges willing to live in the wilderness. I think the English system uses three judges now and to the best of my knowledge Americans are the only ones laboring under the uncertainty of non professionals reviewing evidence. I could not imagine what the outcome of this farce would be if guilt in this case were determined by a "jury of peers".

[chuchok]

Isnt the jury thing strictly American? I thought it was some odd idea of Jefferson because of abuses in the colonies due to the low quality of English judges willing to live in the wilderness. I think the English system uses three judges now and to the best of my knowledge Americans are the only ones laboring under the uncertainty of non professionals reviewing evidence. I could not imagine what the outcome of this farce would be if guilt in this case were determined by a "jury of peers".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you joking?

[Heng]

Heng, your example is ridiculous.  You do not need to know less than "thousands of residents" to make comparisons.  Basically, you are trying to enforce the viewpoint that all things are equal, all of the time.  That is the biggest generalization and mind-control excuse ofall time.  ALL research starts with generalizations, which is then substantiated with observation and frequency.

Yes, there are travesties of justice quite possibly everywhere.  There are definitely plenty of travesties of justice in the U.S.; the death penalty is but one example.  However, after reading literally hundreds upon hundreds of pages of research on both justice systems,  the Thai system makes the worst miscarriages

of American justice look like a ######ing picnic.  If you don't want to compare actual differences rather than similarities that are common to almost everywhere else on earth, then that's your myopic viewpoint. 

TIT, where stupid cops walk on flimsy defense excuses, at a very high rate of frequency.

... that's nice and all, but again, I think one DOES need to know more than a few people before they know the country. Differing opinions I suppose. A few links or references to your hundreds and hundreds of pages of research would make your otherwise baseless claim more credible.

As for miscarriages of justice, I think you're far less likely to get away with criminal activity here for any extended period of time than you are in a lot of places in the world.... as long as you're a nobody that is. For the poor and the stupid, justice is swift.

[RDN]

Isnt the jury thing strictly American? I thought it was some odd idea of Jefferson because of abuses in the colonies due to the low quality of English judges willing to live in the wilderness. I think the English system uses three judges now and to the best of my knowledge Americans are the only ones laboring under the uncertainty of non professionals reviewing evidence. I could not imagine what the outcome of this farce would be if guilt in this case were determined by a "jury of peers".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you joking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's some light reading: "Twelve Good Men and True: The Criminal Trial Jury in England, 1200-1800" by J. S. Cockburn and Thomas A. Green.

I don't think the seppies were around in 1200

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

- Mr Ya aka Sergeant Tosspottiporn -

- Sergeant Tosspottiporn aka Sergeant Somchai-

Moriarty's web of disguise is shredded and the case, solved. Somchai is the culprit, (and if it wasn't for you meddling kids, he'd have gotten away with it)

Alimentary, my dear Tax Exile.

A Lemon Entry, my dear Toastwars.

LA to Monterey. my dear Kat.

[kat]

no jury, just a judge as I understand it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that makes it easier; just one person to pay off instead of 12.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heng, your example is ridiculous.  You do not need to know less than "thousands of residents" to make comparisons.  Basically, you are trying to enforce the viewpoint that all things are equal, all of the time.  That is the biggest generalization and mind-control excuse ofall time.  ALL research starts with generalizations, which is then substantiated with observation and frequency.

Yes, there are travesties of justice quite possibly everywhere.  There are definitely plenty of travesties of justice in the U.S.; the death penalty is but one example.  However, after reading literally hundreds upon hundreds of pages of research on both justice systems,  the Thai system makes the worst miscarriages

of American justice look like a ######ing picnic.   If you don't want to compare actual differences rather than similarities that are common to almost everywhere else on earth, then that's your myopic viewpoint. 

TIT, where stupid cops walk on flimsy defense excuses, at a very high rate of frequency.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... that's nice and all, but again, I think one DOES need to know more than a few people before they know the country. Differing opinions I suppose. A few links or references to your hundreds and hundreds of pages of research would make your otherwise baseless claim more credible.

As for miscarriages of justice, I think you're far less likely to get away with criminal activity here for any extended period of time than you are in a lot of places in the world.... as long as you're a nobody that is. For the poor and the stupid, justice is swift.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First you say "thousands" and now you say a "few. But semantics are irrelevant, because I'm not talking about making sweeping generalizations based on meeting a "few" people. I'm talking about comparisons between governance, culture, and society. If you still need references for my so-called "baseless" claims, I suggest that you start at ground zero and read the English newspapers. Perhaps you're spending too much time reading Thai Rath. In case you missed it, even the police themselves are admitting widespread and deeply entrenched corruption. Better yet, visit the archives of The Nation or The BKK Post, and sample the same stories regurgitated over and over again. You could catch-up on the abuse of the Criminal Defamation Law as it is currently being hashed out in the courts between the SHIN Corporation vs Supinya (or visit the website of the Asian Human Rights Commission).

You could also read anything by Pasuk Phongpaichit, and visit www.lawreform.com.go.th for Thaksin's "reform" agenda of Thai laws, or www.krisdik.so.th if you read Thai. There is a book about the history of Thai and Burmese Buddhist Law and the Three Seals, but the exact name escapes me at the moment.

As for links or references, I doubt you'll read any of them anyway. I don't think you are really interested in anything other than your own dogma.

But in case I'm mistaken, the following are references on the American penal system that I found useful:

Foucault: Discipline and Punishment: The Birth of the Prison and The Punitive Society

Eric Cummins: The Rise and Fall of California's Radical Prison Movement

Robbinson: Justice Blind? Ideals and Realities of American Criminal Justice 2002

Christian Parenti: [/i]Lockdown America: Police and Prisions in the Age of Crisis

Katherine Beckett and Theodore Sasson: The Politics of Injustice

Loic Wacquant: "From Slavery to Mass Incarceration: Rethinking the Race Question in the U.S." NLR 2002.

These references are from a reading list of a university course. You could also read anything by Manning Marable, Tannenbaum, Eugene Genovese, or Herbert Klein. Do you have any recommendations?

I have since moved on to SEA history and the injustices of migrants in Thailand. Please let me know if you also require references for that "baseless" claim.

- Mr Ya aka Sergeant Tosspottiporn -

- Sergeant Tosspottiporn aka Sergeant Somchai-

Moriarty's web of disguise is shredded and the case, solved. Somchai is the culprit, (and if it wasn't for you meddling kids, he'd have gotten away with it)

Alimentary, my dear Tax Exile.

A Lemon Entry, my dear Toastwars.

LA to Monterey. my dear Kat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Heng]

Thanks for the references.

[kat]

' welcome.

[Rumpole]

Isnt the jury thing strictly American? I thought it was some odd idea of Jefferson because of abuses in the colonies due to the low quality of English judges willing to live in the wilderness. I think the English system uses three judges now and to the best of my knowledge Americans are the only ones laboring under the uncertainty of non professionals reviewing evidence. I could not imagine what the outcome of this farce would be if guilt in this case were determined by a "jury of peers".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Juries were originally an early type of vigilanti (or TVP, hehe), with police rather than judicial powers. The "Grand Jury" system (to determine whether or not there is sufficient evidence for an indictment) which you still have in the States was abolished in England by the legal reforms of the late Nineteenth Century.

Whatever the shortcomings of the system, I would rather entrust my potential liberty or lack thereof to a panel of my peers, than to a case-hardened judge who in mentes bats for the prosecution. This is particularly true if the judge happens to be called Somchai.

[Nam Kao]

>>>>but Somchai begged: “Please don’t hurt the foreigners. Just take me home.”

Didnt he already say he shot them in self defence?

[bambob]

this case is heaed in the same direction as the chiang mai guesthouse murder.

red herrings, false leads, muddying the waters , frightened witnesses .

he will get off i reckon. mrYa will be blamed and never found.

[Erwin1011]

It has taken some time, but finally the months of role playing has resulted in an acceptable face saving exercise. The problem that now remains is that Thailand is going to suffer a massive loss of face in front of the rest of the world. It is hoped that the effects will dissapear over time. (it usually does)

[penzman]

There's so much crap going on in this world that even if Somchai walks, the repercussions will not last very long. Sadly, it will soon be forgotten. Will the murdered tourists country of origin take any action against this corrupted judicial system? Of course not... It will be business as usual between both countries

[phuketsiam]

There's so much crap going on in this world that even if Somchai  walks, the repercussions will not last very long. Sadly, it will soon be forgotten. Will the murdered tourists country of origin take any action against this corrupted judicial system? Of course not... It will be business as usual between both countries

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SadlyI think you are right, I just wonder the girls father will think about Thailand after this

[Mr Helper]

Well if it was my Daughter who he had killed,

// RDN> edited out - too strong Mr Helper, please cool it.

Farangs, and farang familys in Thailand should stand up for themselves once in a while

Edited April 7, 2005 by RDN