'that Farang Done Me Wrong' Thread

[lannarebirth]

He was an American, remember.

(flame doors open, flame away)

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. All parties would appear to have acted in good faith from the information given in the OP unless the buyer KNEW he was being disingenuous, which we don't know. A clue that he may not have been is that he took the time and was courteous enough to inform the OP that the situation had changed. Unfortunate for the OP, but these things happen.

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Edited October 16, 2009 by lannarebirth

[Donnyboy]

One thing I've really learned over the years is I'm the only normal person out there.

yup, like everyone thinks theyre an above average driver

[Donnyboy]

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, who I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

foreigner buying land??

[chiangmaibruce]

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. <snip> This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, <snip>

I agree and disagree. Granted, in the overall scheme of things what happened to us was but a minor irritation - and of course we are grateful that we weren't the victim of something serious. I don't agree though that this turkey's behaviour wasn't unethical. Ethics is "a set of principles of right conduct". I don't anything "right" about looking someone in the face & shaking their hand on a very unambiguous deal and then reneging half an hour later.

I did leave part of the story out actually, as it opens the door to speculation. We actually called this guy first from the Transport Dept to tell him that he would need a residency certificate. We also mentioned that the transport dept would need to inspect the car at the time of the transfer, and suggested that we pick him up and bring him to the Transport Dept where my wife could also help him with the forms (which are in Thai). We talked about when would be the best time to do this, etc. As he was on his way out the door and said he would call back in a few minutes. This he subsequently did (this being the call I mentioned in the OP).

I would suggest that the likelihood that in those 5-10 mins between calls, that he received a call from someone else about a car he saw days before, verges on being completely fanciful. More likely would be that he either got cold feet about the deal, or simply couldn't face the prospect of standing in two queues any time soon. I stand by my original assertion that it's weak behaviour in anyone's language.

Edited October 16, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[envirogirl]

Sorry to hear that happened to you, but as many people who posted before me said, it happens all the time - everywhere.

In fact, it happened to me the other day by a Thai family that came to buy almost everything from my house (Moving out sale). I have a dresser and a vanity set that I am selling for a mere 1500 baht (originally 3000 new, bought 7 months ago). The woman only wanted the dresser (closet) but I prefer to sell them as a set so I talked her into needing both. She in turn got the price lower (I am no match for an asian barginer), but I did not have all my stuff out of it and there was no more room in their truck so we agreed she would come back. She was even going to pay me right there for it, but I told her to hang on to the money.

Needless to say she called and canceled, which I half expected, but am not bothered really. I am mostly grateful she had the decency to call and cancel the deal so I can move on.

Of course this is hardly close to the hassle CMB went through, but I just thought I would share my experience.

And since I am an honest person, I also would like to admit that I wanted to use this opportunity to advertise the availability of this dresser set to all you fine folks reading. It really is a good deal and as I said, they are in good condition and I actually have 2 sets available (dark brow plywood). I also have pictures if you're interested. PM me.

[olsen]

Well...we've all tried this I think!

I've even wrote my own story about this:

What is wrong with foreigners in Thailand?

Why do they keep pissing you off?

I've been in business more than 11 years now in Pattaya, Phuket and Khanom….and I've been pissed off so many times that I can't even count'em!

Maybe the term "pissed off" is a bit too harsh….but let me explain what I mean:

You have a property or a business for sale.

You advertise this in different spaces, either online or in print media.

You get tons of responses….and here the "problems" start:

Many responses are from curious "farangs" with dreams in their eyes but no money in their pockets to actually purchase your offer. "Time wasters" to use a well-known term.

I bet we all know them…and I bet we all hate them! Am I wrong?

These time wasters all pretend they're interested, and maybe they really are, but how on earth will they ever pay for your property/business!! They very well know they don't have the money, so why the h… waste the time of serious foreign business men who just try to make an honest living? Why the h… make the business man think that he "has a sale" and then just "disappear"….in other words….they often make the foreign business man think they has got a sale and then they just stop replying to your phone calls, emails and SMS messages…like they've vanished from the surface of the earth!

As a professional business man you know very well the importance of follow up emails, SMS messages or phone calls…

You do some follow up…. But in most cases you get no response at all…

When you get response you can't help thinking that you now "have a sale".

At least you hope so! Even the toughest business man with many years of experience can't help feeling kind of excited each time he gets a positive response even though he very well dam_n know that this is possible just another damned time waster…..

Back to my question: What is wrong with foreigners in Thailand?

Why do they keep pissing you off?

Yes….why??

I have often wondered why!!

There might be a simple explanation, but so far I'm still waiting for the answer!

Some answers could be:

• The guy is lonely? He just needs someone to talk to!

• The guy is just dreaming? "If I had the money I could buy this property/business!"

• The guy is envious? "Why does everyone except me have a property/business?" So it's maybe only a kind of "revenge"…? "Make the life of those lucky bastards with properties/businesses a h_e_l_l….." ????

• The guy is simply lying to himself? "I take a look at this property/business because I know I'll get the money to buy it soon…"….

• The guy is just a simple looser? The only way he can get some "content" in his life is to make other people feel like losers!? A saying goes: "Do to others as you want them to do to you!" . But those losers change the context: "If you're a looser, make others feel like losers, too!"

Bet there are many of you who've been in contact with time wasters…what is your best bet? Why do people act like this?

I have met all of the above mentioned time wasters….if any of you time wasters read this please let us all know why you act like this!? Thanks in advance! I don't expect any responses 

But one thing I want to tell all of you time wasters! "Keep away from me! I have better things to do!"

[richard_smith237]

I had a similar experience selling a car. We agreed on a price and shook hands. Then he called up to lower the price by B20,000, I agreed. Then he called up later to lower the price again by another B20,000 - So I told him I didn't want to sell the car to him at even the original price.

I didn't really need to sell it but I had two cars, so I just enjoyed them both until I found a decent buyer - I sold it 7 months later for B50k less than the original asking price.

I have to say though that one Thai guy agreed on the price, offered a deposit but I declined because he said that he still has to ask his wife's permission and it was unfair. The next day he called telling me his wife wouldn't let him buy the car !

So for me it was 50/50.... (Western / Thai) - time wasters, but I think thats to be expected when selling a car or doing similar business.

[lannarebirth]

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. <snip> This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, <snip>

I agree and disagree. Granted, in the overall scheme of things what happened to us was but a minor irritation - and of course we are grateful that we weren't the victim of something serious. I don't agree though that this turkey's behaviour wasn't unethical. Ethics is "a set of principles of right conduct". I don't anything "right" about looking someone in the face & shaking their hand on a very unambiguous deal and then reneging half an hour later.

I did leave part of the story out actually, as it opens the door to speculation. We actually called this guy first from the Transport Dept to tell him that he would need a residency certificate. We also mentioned that the transport dept would need to inspect the car at the time of the transfer, and suggested that we pick him up and bring him to the Transport Dept where my wife could also help him with the forms (which are in Thai). We talked about when would be the best time to do this, etc. As he was on his way out the door and said he would call back in a few minutes. This he subsequently did (this being the call I mentioned in the OP).

I would suggest that the likelihood that in those 5-10 mins between calls, that he received a call from someone else about a car he saw days before, verges on being completely fanciful. More likely would be that he either got cold feet about the deal, or simply couldn't face the prospect of standing in two queues any time soon. I stand by my original assertion that it's weak behaviour in anyone's language.

Well, that fleshes out the story a little bit more and a reasonable person might conclude from these extra details that he might be lying to you. That would be unethical conduct and worthy of a rant. I drew my conclusions from the facs as presented. Apologies too about the comment on Brits. It is an unfair generalization though it does align with my experiences. I just suffered yesterday a presentation by a Brit "financial planner" that may have colored my thinking.

[cmsally]

One car I sold, farang guy came to look with his Thai girlfriend. Not sure if guy spoke Thai or not but talked to my husband in Eng. Thai girlfriend asked my husband what her commission would be

LRB - I always wondered who went to those financial planning meetings!!

[lannarebirth]

One car I sold, farang guy came to look with his Thai girlfriend. Not sure if guy spoke Thai or not but talked to my husband in Eng. Thai girlfriend asked my husband what her commission would be

LRB - I always wondered who went to those financial planning meetings!!

A favor for a "friend". As my Thai friends say "never again in this life".

[chiangmaibruce]

And since I am an honest person, I also would like to admit that I wanted to use this opportunity to advertise the availability of this dresser set to all you fine folks reading. It really is a good deal and as I said, they are in good condition and I actually have 2 sets available (dark brow plywood). I also have pictures if you're interested. PM me.

EG: Your attempt to hijack this thread and ride rough-shod over my hurt and disappointment - to sell furniture - is truly shameful Yet at the same time your quick-thinking deserves to be rewarded - I wish your well in your sales efforts. And with 1200+ hits and counting you are getting some good exposure.

Alas meanwhile Harry the Honda sits mournfully in his garage desperately trying to shake off the jinx of Richard the Reneger, and seeking only the opportunity to share many more years of driving pleasure with a kindly new owner.

[MJo]

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Now that really is unethical. If not illegal...

Edited October 17, 2009 by MJo

[MJo]

I have met all of the above mentioned time wasters….if any of you time wasters read this please let us all know why you act like this!?

It is just the fastest way to get rid of various touts and "businessman" trying to push stuff to you or trying to convince you to buy this excellent business opportunity in lucrative Pattaya beer bar industry. Cutting all contact works faster than restraining order.

I often wonder why these fools just don't get it when people are not interested when they found out the reality is something else than advertised. Time wasting goes both ways, too many people in the market selling something they can not deliver or they do not have.

Edited October 17, 2009 by MJo

[lannarebirth]

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Now that really is unethical. If not illegal...

It wasn't the money that bothered me, as the land was a steal. My wife sold it later for twice as much(which was still a bargain IMO). It was the behavior. I've singled out the British, but I suppose it could have been any nationality. I've seen some pretty poor behaviour from them all, in all honesty.

[venturalaw]

He was an American, remember.

(flame doors open, flame away)

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. All parties would appear to have acted in good faith from the information given in the OP unless the buyer KNEW he was being disingenuous, which we don't know. A clue that he may not have been is that he took the time and was courteous enough to inform the OP that the situation had changed. Unfortunate for the OP, but these things happen.

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Actually, although it is not illegal, it is unethical. An enforceable legal contract was formed when there was an offer and acceptance with the consideration being agreed. The terms were definite and certain. In a civil action, CMB would prevail.

[sassienie]

But I was brought up with enough self respect and dignity that if I gave someone my word I would honor it even if it's was at my expense. Maybe it's old fashioned but keeping your word shows a lot about character.

Well said mobs, and my point entirely. I too have, an occasion, lost money because I kept my word, even though the other party would have had no 'come-back' at me. It's just the decent thing to do. If you don't have decency and/or act in a way which presume no-one else has decency, then what have you got? ... A world populated by people whose moral compass is such that "anything is OK if you can get away with it"?

And as to the notion that "it's the way of the world now", and thus one should accept it and live your life accordingly .... well in southern Thailand the way of the world is to drive up on a motorcycle and shoot a stranger. Accept that? I don't think so

And for the record, I do as rule get everything in writing, get a deposit, etc etc. In fact I've taken stick over the years for not trusting people enough. It's just nice to sometimes relax the paranoia and extend a little faith. You know, in the hope of being uplifted rather than let down.

As for having a little faith in the hope of being uplifted, this is what happened to me:

Back in 2003 I was in the process of selling my house and it`s contents in London for our move to Thailand.

I wanted to sell the house contents as quickly as possible, so I advertised everything at a knock down price.

4 weeks before the exchange of contracts, my close cousin visited me and asked that I give her first option on all the house contents including my car. I agreed and took no deposit because she is my cousin, both of us being brought up together as children and she made an excuse that she would prefer to pay the money when I exchange contracts in case the house sale fell through. I thought fair enough, so I agreed to sell my cousin and her husband the furniture and car.

5 days before the exchange of contracts, my cousin’s husband phoned and said, sorry, they have changed their minds and no longer want the house contents or the car. I asked why? He said, because we have changed our minds, bye.

I was stunned at the time. In the end, there was no time left to advertise the stuff, so I gave away most of it to charities and friends. Sold my car to a friend for £100.

That experience was one of the most disheartening things that ever happened to me and that has made me much more weary of people, trust wise and now very careful, wouldn’t want that to happen to me again.

[sassienie]

He was an American, remember.

(flame doors open, flame away)

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. All parties would appear to have acted in good faith from the information given in the OP unless the buyer KNEW he was being disingenuous, which we don't know. A clue that he may not have been is that he took the time and was courteous enough to inform the OP that the situation had changed. Unfortunate for the OP, but these things happen.

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Your comments regarding ;notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs; I am English and certainly wouldnt try to cheat anyone or do anything illegal or try to pull smart tricks on people.

I consider your remark as offensive saying that I am scum when you don`t even know me.

Do agree with you, that there are some extremely shady foreign charactors over here and buyer beware so to speak, but please do not assume that we are all the same.

Judging by your comments I could assume that you are someone of low education and of extreme ignorance, but I won`t.

[caf]

He was an American, remember.

(flame doors open, flame away)

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. All parties would appear to have acted in good faith from the information given in the OP unless the buyer KNEW he was being disingenuous, which we don't know. A clue that he may not have been is that he took the time and was courteous enough to inform the OP that the situation had changed. Unfortunate for the OP, but these things happen.

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Actually, although it is not illegal, it is unethical. An enforceable legal contract was formed when there was an offer and acceptance with the consideration being agreed. The terms were definite and certain. In a civil action, CMB would prevail.

Does offer, acceptance and consideration ( paid not agreed) apply in Thai law. I don't know. I ask for information

[olsen]

I have met all of the above mentioned time wasters….if any of you time wasters read this please let us all know why you act like this!?

It is just the fastest way to get rid of various touts and "businessman" trying to push stuff to you or trying to convince you to buy this excellent business opportunity in lucrative Pattaya beer bar industry. Cutting all contact works faster than restraining order.

I often wonder why these fools just don't get it when people are not interested when they found out the reality is something else than advertised. Time wasting goes both ways, too many people in the market selling something they can not deliver or they do not have.

So now foreign businessmen in Thailand are touts? As far as I am concerned a tout is those approaching you in the street and trying to drag you into their shop!!!??? I don't ask people to buy my stuff, they contact me by email or phone to get more info about a property.

Adn of course I know if they do not reply back, then they're not interested....and I go on with my life! But it would be somewhat more polite just to email me "sorry, I am not interested!"

And why do you write "businessmen" ??

Seems you're one of the time wasters, so thanks for your response.

So foreign businessmen waiting to hear back from a potential buyer are fools??? He he.... I bet you're not a businessman yourself

[MJo]

It wasn't the money that bothered me, as the land was a steal. My wife sold it later for twice as much(which was still a bargain IMO). It was the behavior. I've singled out the British, but I suppose it could have been any nationality. I've seen some pretty poor behaviour from them all, in all honesty.

My comment was more to do with the fact that you consider it illegal and unethical to change ones mind and cancel verbal promise to purchase but you do not have any problem stealing someones land deal when you see you have the f$#@ing pommie over the barrel ? Sorry but it just don't make any sense for me. You are talking ethics and next sentence admit you have no problem interfering land deal handled by your wife and scamming her customer.

Not to even mention you made nice money in the side, at least OP did not lose any.

If someone broke a deal for a car that was done without any payments or deposits, just verbal agreement to do it i would not lose my sleep over it. However if my friend or my agents husband would f$#ck me over in a land deal i would most definitely come after you and hard.

[Donnyboy]

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Now that really is unethical. If not illegal...

It wasn't the money that bothered me, as the land was a steal. My wife sold it later for twice as much(which was still a bargain IMO). It was the behavior. I've singled out the British, but I suppose it could have been any nationality. I've seen some pretty poor behaviour from them all, in all honesty.

well he was poorly behaved as well as stupid to let that deal get away,

wouldnt mind that happening to me(as long as i could double up)

[MJo]

So now foreign businessmen in Thailand are touts? As far as I am concerned a tout is those approaching you in the street and trying to drag you into their shop!!!??? I don't ask people to buy my stuff, they contact me by email or phone to get more info about a property.

Adn of course I know if they do not reply back, then they're not interested....and I go on with my life! But it would be somewhat more polite just to email me "sorry, I am not interested!"

And why do you write "businessmen" ??

Seems you're one of the time wasters, so thanks for your response.

So foreign businessmen waiting to hear back from a potential buyer are fools??? He he.... I bet you're not a businessman yourself

Well lot of touts call themselves businessman and lot of businessman marketing is nothing different for the touts. Judging you post you are one of the above or in time share or patters property agent.

You claim to know if there is no reply the customer is not interested so why the rant ? It's just business, nothing personal, as "foreign businessman" you should know this. Also if your into property you know very well you keep marketing the property at to the point when transfer in done at land department. You are more than willing to drop the deal if there is better one available and more profits to you.

Do i call and email to each and every property agent i've been in contact and tell them property by property that i'm not interested. No i don't. Call me time waster if you want. It is in their profession to expect that after a simple viewing if there is no contact back the customer is not interested.

If i do make an offer for the property then it is different deal. If no reply from seller i drop it as they are not interested and if there is counter offer i do tell them if it i agree or the deal is off. Unfortunately there is too many sellers and agents who do not get this and just keep pestering for you weeks and weeks after you have told them no deal.

Again judging your post it appears to me that you do have above issues as you seem to consider all customers as time wasters that are not buying from you.

[idrankwhat]

That is exactly why when I sold my car I made people come to see it just like in the USA, I sold it in 3 days.

[venturalaw]

He was an American, remember.

(flame doors open, flame away)

Unless there is a whole lot more to this story than what the OP presented, what the would be buyer has done is not only not illegal it is not unethical either. All parties would appear to have acted in good faith from the information given in the OP unless the buyer KNEW he was being disingenuous, which we don't know. A clue that he may not have been is that he took the time and was courteous enough to inform the OP that the situation had changed. Unfortunate for the OP, but these things happen.

This isn't even close to some of the dodgy behaviour I've seen perpetratrated by foreigners here, notably British foreigners, whom I regard as scum and to be avoided at all costs. One had my wife negotiate a land purchase for him and wanted to change the terms in the last days, thinking he had (in his words) the "fuc_king peaseant" over a barrel. Instead I took over his obligation to the tune of 2 million+.

Actually, although it is not illegal, it is unethical. An enforceable legal contract was formed when there was an offer and acceptance with the consideration being agreed. The terms were definite and certain. In a civil action, CMB would prevail.

Does offer, acceptance and consideration ( paid not agreed) apply in Thai law. I don't know. I ask for information

Good question considering Thai law is what applies in this case. Given that CMB potentially suffered damages (losing the second potential buyer) it makes sense that a Thai court would find in his favor. However, a Thai lawyer would be the proper authority to answer your question.

Edited October 19, 2009 by venturalaw

[highlander76]

It is a very british way of doing business mate was always bought up to believe my handshake was my honour I if you shaked hands it was a done deal

[doggie888888]

No money, no honey or in the case of the OP, no deposit, no deal!

Sold some furniture once. Asked for a deposit from a guy who said he'd return to pick up the next day. His response: "why? don't you trust me?". My thoughts were: "actually I don't trust any one who walks of the street, whom I have never met before" but I politely said: "oh, if you put a depost I will hold it, otherwise I will see other potnetial purchasers and frst one who pays gets the furniture". He took great offense. Silly bugger. We live in Pattaya, where all sorts of shady characters live and he expected me to accept his (a total stranger, no less) word? Besides, it takes 2 gentlemen to shake on a gentlemen's agreement and his behavior after I asked for deposit only confirms he was no gentleman and I did indeed do the right thing in asking for a deposit.

Subsequently, sold to a Thai who had no issues whatsoever when I asked for a deposit.

The longer I live here, the more I realise how much more straightforward it is to deal with Thais, that they are not all crooks or dishonest as initially warned by some expats and really even if they were, they are no worse than the foreigners I have dealt with in Pattaya.

[chiangmaibruce]

It is a very british way of doing business mate was always bought up to believe my handshake was my honour I if you shaked hands it was a done deal

Quite so - and as spelt out in the following article I came across:

"... The Greeks may not have been very far off point. The handshake is a symbol equivalent of a promise. It becomes a virtue of the word and value of the person extending it. It is an agreement sealed with honor before the lawyers get involved. The handshake is a very valuable tool and, since in business often the communication is one-to-one, it's flexible and indicates that an agreement has been reached on current dealings. It says that all information and intentions have been disclosed so that the value of the handshake is not diminished. The lesson here is that the handshake historically has carried symbolic importance. It is good to know what your handshake is worth. It's your word and it says you can deliver on your promises ... The handshake encompasses trust, honor, and communications, follow through and follow up, and represent good faith negotiations. After all, the word of a man and woman still lies in the bond that they will ultimately create."

[slapout]

After reading many the responses on the topic, it tends to reinforce my reluctance to conduct business of any sort, with anyone, with the possible exception, for the purpose of physical gratification. It is encouraging that there are a few people who do feel morally obligated to honor their word/handshake.

[lannarebirth]

After reading many the responses on the topic, it tends to reinforce my reluctance to conduct business of any sort, with anyone, with the possible exception, for the purpose of physical gratification. It is encouraging that there are a few people who do feel morally obligated to honor their word/handshake.

Everyone on the internet is righteous, if they do say so themselves. More fit that description on this thread than I have encountered in real life here, in almost a decades time.

Actions speak louder than words and accordingly I instruct my children to put little stock in what people say and pay much closer attention to what people do.

Edited October 19, 2009 by lannarebirth

[chiangmaibruce]

After reading many the responses on the topic, it tends to reinforce my reluctance to conduct business of any sort, with anyone, with the possible exception, for the purpose of physical gratification.

In which case you would be shaking other parts of the anatomy