Atm Theft- Where's The Baht!?

[Chaimai]

Anyway, I phoned my home bank, gave them the details I had, and they chased it up with the Thai bank - and returned my losses.

Then again - it could all have been just an innocent machine glitch. But thats what Thailand does to you!

Good result dudemeister.

The OP may get the same result with a plausible story to Nationwide.

[Kitsch22]

Then would you also go along with him in saying that a fraudulent claim is the way to go for the OP's wife? And at the same time (given your past work experience) can you confirm the figure for the minimum expense to a bank (win or lose) in defending a complaint made to the offiice of the Financial Services Ombudsman? [Hint: that expense significantly exceeds three hundred pounds.]

Hey, "Poor taste" - who is this mythical "Financial Services Ombudsman" ?

Someone who has allowed the 'fraudulent' use of their card is unlikely to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service when a bank tells them to <deleted> off.

If you really want to inflate the bank's overheads (which the customer will ultimately pay for) then write to the bank's Chairman to complain about such decision and throw in poor service against a named employee AND possible racist comments against the Thai wife. That should get them running around and it is no less fanciful than you alluding to an ombudsman.

There is no fraud involved in my allowing a third party to have possession and use of my ATM card.

The relevant fraud in this part of this thread was a proposal by somebody claiming to be an ex-bank manager who seemed to think that it would be smart for the OP's wife to lie and say that the use of the card on the occasion of loss was by her personally, even though her lie in that regard would inevitably be detected.

The Financial Services Ombudsman, while not mythical, does have a certain resemblance to Father Christmas if you are a complainant. In real terms you cannot lose. It costs you nothing to make your complaint but it costs the card issuer significant money to defend the complaint. You are not bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against you whereas the card issuer is bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against the card issuer. In this case the Ombudsman would only need to decide whether or not the ATM had actually paid out or not. If he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had not paid out then he would order the card issuer to re-credit the holder's account. If, on the other hand, he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had paid out then the complaint would fail, which would be fair enough in all the circumstances.

The OP's wife cannot complain to the Ombudsman unless she has first exhausted the internal complaints procedure of her card issuer. However, if the card issuer gives her no joy in response to a truthful and honest complaint and if she is sufficiently incensed over the loss of £300, then the Financial Services Ombudsman is surely the way to go.

[Dave the Dude]

Hey Phee Nick

Any news? whats happened ( other than this thread getting boring )

Dave

[Chaimai]

There is no fraud involved in my allowing a third party to have possession and use of my ATM card.

Interesting that you are quite prepared to breach the terms of issue of a card but pontificate about about a practical solution to try and recover (possibly) lost money.

The relevant fraud in this part of this thread was a proposal by somebody claiming to be an ex-bank manager who seemed to think that it would be smart for the OP's wife to lie and say that the use of the card on the occasion of loss was by her personally, even though her lie in that regard would inevitably be detected.

Detected by what....... telepathy ??

Note - One does not claim to be an ex-bank manager - factually, you either are, or you are not. In this case - I am.

The Financial Services Ombudsman, while not mythical, does have a certain resemblance to Father Christmas if you are a complainant. In real terms you cannot lose. It costs you nothing to make your complaint but it costs the card issuer significant money to defend the complaint. You are not bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against you whereas the card issuer is bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against the card issuer. In this case the Ombudsman would only need to decide whether or not the ATM had actually paid out or not. If he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had not paid out then he would order the card issuer to re-credit the holder's account. If, on the other hand, he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had paid out then the complaint would fail, which would be fair enough in all the circumstances.

Dream on ! The vast majority of cases are left for the bank determine. In this case the bank say, for example. "No - SCB report that they have no 'difference' for that day". You think the Financial Ombudsman Service will overturn such a decision ?

The OP's wife cannot complain to the Ombudsman unless she has first exhausted the internal complaints procedure of her card issuer. However, if the card issuer gives her no joy in response to a truthful and honest complaint and if she is sufficiently incensed over the loss of £300, then the Financial Services Ombudsman is surely the way to go.

You really do not get it, do you Kirtsch - a "truthful and honest compaint (sic)" will simply expose her to recognition of misuse of the card by breaching the terms of issue. This is more likely to result in a demand to close the account than achieve recovery of any ATM shortfall.

[Chaimai]

Hey Phee Nick

Any news? whats happened ( other than this thread getting boring )

Dave

I fear that Phee Nick (anagram of "PIN cheek") was a one day wonder.

[Kitsch22]

There is no fraud involved in my allowing a third party to have possession and use of my ATM card.

Interesting that you are quite prepared to breach the terms of issue of a card but pontificate about about a practical solution to try and recover (possibly) lost money.

BREACH OF CONTRACT IS NEITHER CRIMINAL NOR DISHONEST NOR EVEN REPREHENSIBLE.

The relevant fraud in this part of this thread was a proposal by somebody claiming to be an ex-bank manager who seemed to think that it would be smart for the OP's wife to lie and say that the use of the card on the occasion of loss was by her personally, even though her lie in that regard would inevitably be detected.

Detected by what....... telepathy ?? :jerk:

BY THE LOCAL POLICE WHO APPEAR FROM THE OP TO BE AWARE THAT THE CARDHOLDER WAS IN UK

Note - One does not claim to be an ex-bank manager - factually, you either are, or you are not. In this case - I am.

YOU CERTAINLY MADE THE CLAIM WHICH MAY BE A LIE (FITS WHAT YOU HAVE SHOWN US OF YOURSELF) OR MAY BE TRUE, IN WHICH CASE CONGRATULATIONS ARE IN ORDER (TO YOUR FORMER EMPLOYER)

The Financial Services Ombudsman, while not mythical, does have a certain resemblance to Father Christmas if you are a complainant. In real terms you cannot lose. It costs you nothing to make your complaint but it costs the card issuer significant money to defend the complaint. You are not bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against you whereas the card issuer is bound by the Ombudsman's decision if he finds against the card issuer. In this case the Ombudsman would only need to decide whether or not the ATM had actually paid out or not. If he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had not paid out then he would order the card issuer to re-credit the holder's account. If, on the other hand, he reached the factual conclusion that the machine had paid out then the complaint would fail, which would be fair enough in all the circumstances.

Dream on ! The vast majority of cases are left for the bank determine. In this case the bank say, for example. "No - SCB report that they have no 'difference' for that day". You think the Financial Ombudsman Service will overturn such a decision ?

IF THERE TRULY WAS NO DIFFERENCE FOR THE DAY THE COMPLAINANT IS NOT ENTITLED TO RECOVER ANYTHING. ANY SOUND COMPLAINT MUST SHOW AT LEAST A PRIMA FACIE CASE THAT THE MONEY WAS NOT PAID OUT. IT BEGGARS BELIEF THAT A GENUINE EX-BANK MANAGER COULD BE SO IGNORANT OF THE MECHANICS OF THE FINANCIAL OMBUDSMAN SCHEME.

The OP's wife cannot complain to the Ombudsman unless she has first exhausted the internal complaints procedure of her card issuer. However, if the card issuer gives her no joy in response to a truthful and honest complaint and if she is sufficiently incensed over the loss of £300, then the Financial Services Ombudsman is surely the way to go.

You really do not get it, do you Kirtsch - a "truthful and honest compaint (sic)" will simply expose her to recognition of misuse of the card by breaching the terms of issue. This is more likely to result in a demand to close the account than achieve recovery of any ATM shortfall.

UNLIKELY AND NO BIG DEAL IF IT WERE TRUE. BUT I AM CONTENT TO LEAVE IT AT THAT AND LET THE EX-BANK MANAGER WHO ADVOCATES FRAUD TO HAVE THE LAST WORD.

[DickFarang]

About 3 years ago I tried to withdraw 25'000 Baht with my ATM at my bank. The machine made noices of counting money for about 2 minutes - but no money came out. I then went inside the bank and called someone to come an look. When we came out - less than a minutes later - the ATM just spit out my money.

The bank official said it may have been a malfunction in the counting mechanism with old currency bank notes. This may result to recounting the money several times. This can last very long: 3 minutes are very long, when you wait in front of an ATM.

Maybe your mother in law gave up to early? In this case the next customer found the money there - ready to take...

Regards

Thedi

If that was the case, she wouldn't have received the ATM card back either - would she? I'm pretty sure that ATMs issue the money before returning the card. No mention of that in the OP.

Correct.

After you get the banknotes you have to answer if you want a ticket to be printed before you get your ATM card back.

[DickFarang]

Not by telling lies or by equivalent dishonesty, they don't. The "white lie" to which you refer is otherwise known as "fraud". If you are going to incite someone (for which the inciter can cop the same penalty, by the way - do you think that TV would resist an order to reveal your identity?) to commit an offence that could carry serious consequences, then at least have the decency to warn them so that they may take an informed decision. Especially bearing in mind that the fraud you favoiur would be easy to detect and then impossible for the fraudster to deny.

And as "holier than thou" evidently means "more honest than thou" or at least "less criminal than thou" when talking to you, then I guess that I must accept that accolade.

My advice by the way would be to make a report that was 100% truthful and then press the claim hard (up to and including a complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman if necessary) whereupon the complainant would have a good chance of getting her money back or failing that learning who really nicked the cash. All without any risk of having to discover at first hand the miserable state of the accommodation at Holloway Gaol.

Sanctimonious prick to boot

I can assure you with 100% certainty that the bank would not entertain ANY claim where the card has been used outside the terms of issue i.e. "misuse" by an unauthorised 3rd party.

In a recent murder case in Pattaya, the criminals, who had also misused the ATM card of the victim, were identified on the video of the ATM machine.

So, it must be possible to check if the wife, the mother in law or somebody else withdrew the money.

Anyway, it is a very stupid suggestion to allege that the wife was is Thailand if she was not.

[DickFarang]

When I told my (Thai) wife this story, she immediately understood:

The old woman is not capable of filing a complaint, nor of completing a form, NOR EVEN OF WITHDRAWING MONEY FROM AN ATM HERSELF.

Everybody knows what happens if you leave the fox to watch the geese.

(There are many similar expressions in other languages.)

My late mother always said (translated from Dutch):

“Be trustworthy, but trust nobody.”

“The opportunity makes the thief.”

A Swiss living in Pattaya put it this way (translated from German):

“The people that you can trust the least, are your fellow countrymen.”

Myself I regret bitterly having trusted a “businessman” in Pattaya, who however I had known, back in Belgium, for more than 20 years.

Money, or the need for money, or greed, or whatever you call it, seems to change many people.

We all learn from our experiences. At least let us hope it.

[phee nick]

interesting and entusiastic replies, all appreciated.

Great suggestion to use a Halifax reward account to transfer funds straight to a Thai bank account, will stop using a UK card.

M-I-L is not an old lady..mid forties and is still not as suspect in my opinion but I can understand some of the opinions left. But knowing all parties in this matter, I think I trust my judgment that it's an ATM fault....any aspect of the global banking system is hardly top of my credibilty list. The M-I-L has not asked for any extra money anyway, is going to live with the loss and eat mushrooms this month

Thanks again for all replies, this forum is a regular read for me, I don't post much as still live in UK but have found much of use on these pages.

[parryhandy]

Just had a similar thing happened too me with Aeon. Tried to withdraw 10k baht on monday and the atm told me problem with card see issue bank. So went to Bangkok branch and withdrew over the counter no problems .Just checked my statement and the money has been taken from my UK bank by Aeon.

[spacemand]

I work in the debit card industry and see this issue on a regular basis.

What usually happens is.

1) The bank owning the ATM realize that the ATM did not give out money on that transaction

2) The bank never completes the transaction after authorizing the transaction in the first place. (check with your bank if they charged the card or just put a hold on the money, if they just put a hold on the money then your bank should be able to return the money to the account about 30 days after the withdrawal were attempted.

3) We have to charge back the transaction for "Funds not dispensed" then the owner of the ATM will check the ATM and if the balance of the ATM shows a surplus of money then the charge back is successful.

[torrenova]

I'll bet that the money has been taken out of the bank and someone is telling porkies. How ? well either MIL did it and spent it (or gave it to errant relative) or she couldn't be arsed to get it out of the bank herself and sent another who promptly spent it.

No way to get the money back as the OP and family are in breach of terms and conditions. Why on earth not have a personal account at SCB and transfer in chunks of money and then just transfer on the internet the required amount from your SCB account to MIL's account whenever needed at minimal cost. Say transfer in £3600 and then give her £300 a month. Anyway, she cannot be short living on Bt15,000 a month and should have considerable savings you'd have thought ! Or not, being Thai.

[jimky]

Only somewhat related as my experiences are from US.

fwiw, ATM errors do happen, though obviously are rare. As a former poker player traveling often in the US for tournaments, but not wanting to bring heeps of cash through Airports and never trusting casinos to have my wire secure or wishing to deal with waits when picking up chips: I used to make an average of 4 ATM withdrawals per day (multiple cards) so I'd be funded for $10k buy-in events towards end of trip. Point being I've made more ATM withdrawals than the average person.

Over many years I've experienced errors three times:

The first time I withdrew $500, took out the money the machine continued to wind as if struggling and then spit out another $500.

The second time I withdrew $400 and $600 came out will bills stuck very close together.

Honest I'm type of person there was someone nearby to return this money to I would have. The first time I did nothing at all and kept the $500. The second time i made a phone call to the bank (This was more recent and I was a bit older and more mature) reporting the error and that I had received $200 extra. They acted like I was nuts and I was told an adjustment would be made (it never was).

The most recent error I withdrew $280 at Vegas casino which was a paypal payment for a friend.

The machine spun and spun but no money ever came out. The machine then displayed a message about the transaction being canceled and funds returning to my account and an out of order message then appeared on the machine.

I made a couple phone calls about this, sent a fax and finally just decided it wasn't worth the hassle anymore (I'm easily annoyed with having to do things like this).

In the end I'm + money on ATM errors anyways. Trying to get money back through from a legit error looked like a very difficult process, though i do admit I gave up rather quickly.

[torrenova]

I've also made many many more ATM transactions at thousands of ATMs in dozens of different countries than your average Joe and I have also employed hundreds if not thousands of girls in Thailand and heard more than my fair share of ATM stories from the girls, customers and the greater Thai families. I still believe mistakes can happen but a lot of the problem is in the software when there is an issue. Often, the Thai developers have not incorporated some information screen when there is a problem, such as a machine being empty or developing a fault when you haven't actually been debited.

If someone tells me the ATM is at fault, I don't believe them because I have empirical evidence to the contrary. Anyone suggesting the machine spat the money out later to an unknown 3rd party should be locked up and is certainly not fit to have an ATM card.

[loong]

I've also made many many more ATM transactions at thousands of ATMs in dozens of different countries than your average Joe and I have also employed hundreds if not thousands of girls in Thailand and heard more than my fair share of ATM stories from the girls, customers and the greater Thai families. I still believe mistakes can happen but a lot of the problem is in the software when there is an issue. Often, the Thai developers have not incorporated some information screen when there is a problem, such as a machine being empty or developing a fault when you haven't actually been debited.

If someone tells me the ATM is at fault, I don't believe them because I have empirical evidence to the contrary. Anyone suggesting the machine spat the money out later to an unknown 3rd party should be locked up and is certainly not fit to have an ATM card.

"Anyone suggesting the machine spat the money out later to an unknown 3rd party should be locked up and is certainly not fit to have an ATM card."

Although unlikely, this is possible. One time that I used an ATM, I had selected the English language option, entered my PIN and amount required and nothing happened. Just a message in Thai language to please wait. I guess that there was some delay with the computers communicating.

For about 2 minutes nothing happened and 2 minutes is a long time when twiddling your thumbs and then it gave me my money. I could just as easily left the ATM and gone inside the bank to report a problem and so a lucky passer by could have received a bonus.

But certainly the ATM will not return the card before it issues the cash.

[Totster]

This happened to me a while back - it was put down as ATM error and the money was credited back to the account after a week or so, I filled the form out but it wasn't needed as SCB did it automatically. I think it showed ion the statement as an adjustment.

totster