Undiplomatic Remarks From Foreign Office Mandarins

[jayboy]

No, their stories are a lil more uniquely Thai and sophisticated. Take Khun Pan, Khun Chang for exsample. It has all the qualities of Romeo and Juilet only much more gritty, erotic, and distinctly Thai. Yet with even a basic understanding of the culture you can appreciate it's beauty.

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

But you have completely failed to demonstrate this I'm afraid and Wiki cutting and pasting doesn't really add much to the discussion I'm afraid.Naturally there are some quite interesting Thai folk tales - often revolving around the court, temple or peasantry - as is the case in many S.E Asian cultures, often more of social or anthropological interest rather than literary merit.The best in Thai literature, such as it is, tends borrow heavily on much other greater and sophisticated cultures, notably Indian but overall it is simply not in the league as China, Japan, India, or even Vietnam.

[endure]

Sir_Anthony_Rumbold.pdf

Astounding, only goes to show what happens when things are taken out of context!

A very interesting, intelligent and intuitive report..

Paragraph 19:

"If we are elephants and oxen they are gazelles and butterflies"

He's captured the essence of Thailand in that sentence.

Edited October 20, 2009 by endure

[Huey]

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. No matter how you spin it, Thai 'literature" is not up to much.

Yes that you are, I certainly won't argue with you on that point. Nor will I continue to defend Thai Literature. Some folks just need to look down on the accomplishments of others to make themselves feel somehow superior. Nothing new there, you can feel the overt racism practically leaping off the pages of the ambassador's critique.

Oh and as for Jayboy, sure I like Wiki as much as the next guy, but I didn't cut and paste here. I actually enjoyed that story personally, all in all I think it's much more entertaining than some of it's tired euro equivilants.

[TheGoodDoctor]

“Nobody can deny that gambling and golf are the chief pleasures of the rich, and that licentiousness is the main pleasure of them all.”

I thought that was a compliment.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. No matter how you spin it, Thai 'literature" is not up to much.

Yes that you are, I certainly won't argue with you on that point. Nor will I continue to defend Thai Literature. Some folks just need to look down on the accomplishments of others to make themselves feel somehow superior. Nothing new there, you can feel the overt racism practically leaping off the pages of the ambassador's critique.

Oh and as for Jayboy, sure I like Wiki as much as the next guy, but I didn't cut and paste here. I actually enjoyed that story personally, all in all I think it's much more entertaining than some of it's tired euro equivilants.

As far as I know, Thailand scores somewhere around a 5 out of a 100 for artistic creation however the culinary arts are spectacular. I swear to God, the Chinese food in Thailand is oh so much more delicious than the Chinese food in most parts of China I have been to. If this is simply a reflection of the cooking styles of the types of Chinese who settled in Thailand or the Thai adaptation of Chinese dishes, I do not know, but I find every single Chinese dish here to be of vast superior quality. Khao-Ka-Moo in Hong Kong tastes like how I imagine dog food would taste.

You also have to consider that there is very litle freedom of speech in Thailand and absolutely no support of the arts by the those who have controlled the country since 1932. If anything, the government supports that the people don't think or express themselves in anyway at all. Its hard to make a really good movie when you have to rely 100% of archetypes that 6 year old children would get bored of. Anything that questions the way of life or social order is dead in the water (I could be dead wrong about it, but that is my observation).

[Ulysses G.]

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. No matter how you spin it, Thai 'literature" is not up to much.

Some folks just need to look down on the accomplishments of others to make themselves feel somehow superior. Nothing new there, you can feel the overt racism practically leaping off the pages of the ambassador's critique.

He may indeed be racist, but much of what he says is still true. Wishful thinking does not change mediocre literature into good.

[caf]

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. No matter how you spin it, Thai 'literature" is not up to much.

Some folks just need to look down on the accomplishments of others to make themselves feel somehow superior. Nothing new there, you can feel the overt racism practically leaping off the pages of the ambassador's critique.

He may indeed be racist, but much of what he says is still true. Wishful thinking does not change mediocre literature into good.

A fair summary.

The level of freedom of speech, standard of education, and disencouragement of individual thinking must influence a country's literary heritage.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Admiration from peers is the focal point of human society and interaction.

The point he makes about the way achievements are valued in Thai society is very true. In America, a young person would likely have more ambition and admiration towards a writer, film maker or musician (artists) than towards a successful businessman. In Thailand, money is worshiped above all by a wide margin and thus its not surprising that such massive corruption exists throughout society while at the same time, the arts suffer massively.

Art is expression. Expression in Thai society is frowned upon.

Now, look at the American founding fathers. These guys were tripping over themselves to be the bigger gentleman. That was the way to become the most admired in that social group. Think of how many of them willingly freed their slaves because they thought it was morally wrong and gave up everything - money/power/potentially their lives all for the principles they believed in.

I do not want to get into one of those America is better than Thailand, Westerners are smarter than Thais types of arguments. I just want to say that, the creme of the creme are a reflection of the entire population of a people and their values, goals, ambitions and rules flow down through society. If those at the top, like the American founding fathers, gain esteem by selfless actions (Think Warren Buffet and Bill Gates giving away billions of dollar) and those at the top of Thailand gain esteem by stealing the most, its no surprise that Thailand has had 59 coups, 815 state of emergencies and 287 prime ministers in the last 70 years.

I don't understand why it is very unpopular to suggest that certain societies or segments of those societies have developed better habits or values than others.

Edited October 21, 2009 by TheGoodDoctor

[TheGoodDoctor]

At the same time, there are some good things that come out of discouragement of expression, such as manners and patience and overall personality temperament. I do love the Thailand and the Thais. I which those at the top could realign the values that they esteem.

[TheWalkingMan]

...In Thailand, money is worshiped above all by a wide margin and thus its not surprising that such massive corruption exists throughout society while at the same time, the arts suffer massively...

Ain't that the truth.

Here is a quote which always, sad to say, reminds me of Thailand.

In any country where talent and virtue produce no advancement, money will be the national god. Its inhabitants will either have to possess money or make others believe that they do. Wealth will be the highest virtue, poverty the greatest vice. Those who have money will display it in every imaginable way. If their ostentation does not exceed their fortune, all will be well. But if their ostentation does exceed their fortune they will ruin themselves. In such a country, the greatest fortunes will vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Those who don't have money will ruin themselves with vain efforts to conceal their poverty. That is one kind of affluence: the outward sign of wealth for a small number, the mask of poverty for the majority, and a source of corruption for all.

Denis Diderot

TheWalkingMan

[bonobo]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

I see Thai crowded in each and every bookstore.  I see Thai children reading novels when I go into their homes.  To say that Thais do not read is simply ludicrous, in my opinion.

Thai is not a world language.  It pales in international usage to even languages like Greek and Norwegian, languages spoken by far fewer people.  So it is not surprising to me that the world literary body is not focused on Thai literature.  Think of it. If a writer in Jamaica or Paraguay writes a book in his or her native language, there is an immediate worldwide market of a billion people at least.  But if a Thai writes something, well, only Thais can understand it.

For people who insist that Thailand does not have good literature, well, unless you are fluent in Thai, I don't think you can rationally make that assertion. 

[Ulysses G.]

A lot of it has been translated into English, but it sold so badly that they stopped printing it!

[bonobo]

A lot of it has been translated into English, but it sold so badly that they stopped printing it!

Translations can be good or bad.  I have read two translations of The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha, certainly one of the most revered works in the Spanish language.  One translation was superb, one was merely OK.  And this was between two well-known languages with many, many native-fluent people in both languages.

I strongly contend that you cannot judge the literary value of a work based on translations.  The works must be judged in their native language.

I tried to read Dream of the Red Chamber in it's native Chinese. After a hundred pages, I gave up and read the English translation.  I may have gotten the gist of the book in English, but that hardly accounts for the various nuances offered by Tsao's selection of specific Chinese characters which not only have a meaning of a word as we have in western phonetic languages, but also an image based on the visual of the character itself.

[Ulysses G.]

I strongly contend that you cannot judge the literary value of a work based on translations. The works must be judged in their native language.

I would guess that most experts would disagree with you. I have gotten the idea that they believe that a great work is great in every language.

[Jimjim]

Regarding the OP story, on the contrary, Thailand got their prudishness from Victorian England!

[bonobo]

I strongly contend that you cannot judge the literary value of a work based on translations. The works must be judged in their native language.

I would guess that most experts would disagree with you. I have gotten the idea that they believe that a great work is great in every language.

And most experts are still creatures of their own culture and language.

There is much more than a mere storyline in writing. Word choice, alliteration, rhythm, verisimilitude, etc., all go into what makes the text "flow trippingly from the tongue," if I can mix metaphors here.  With a poor translations, Jane Austen's famous opening:

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.

could turn out to be something akin to the other language equivalent of:

The accepted fact is that any successful man wants a wife.

or hawthorne's:

Let men tremble to win the hand of woman, unless they win along with it the utmost passion of her heart!

would turn out to read: 

Men should be afraid of getting a wife unless they also get her love.

Not quite the same thing. It takes an artist, not merely a person who speaks both languages, to adequately convey the feeling and style of an author while translating his or her works, not just the basic storyline.

So no, I don't hold with literary "experts" who contend that Thailand has no great literature just as I would object to them saying that Vietnam or Nepal or Uganda has no great literature.  This is societal elitism at its worst.  Let the experts become fluent in the languages of those cultures before they begin to pass judgment, which in and of itself, is subjective rather than objective.

[Ulysses G.]

Let's take it a step further and say that no one but a well educated native speaker of a language can make such a judgment.

A foreigner or someone who is not well read will obviously interpret the words and meaning much differently that a native speaking University professor.

In fact, if you want to go even further, only the original writer can interpret the words 100 % correctly.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Ulysses G's favorite author is probably Tom Clancy.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't want to dis your idol, but Camus would be a lot closer.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[bonobo]

Let's take it a step further and say that no one but a well educated native speaker of a language can make such a judgment.

A foreigner or someone who is not well read will obviously interpret the words and meaning much differently that a native speaking University professor.

In fact, if you want to go even further, only the original writer can interpret the words 100 % correctly.

That is taking it past the extreme to the ludicrous.

Most English speakers can read and enjoy The Old Man and the Sea, no matter their education level.  But a Chinese student, even if he or she has taken English lessons, will probably not enjoy it as much as he or she laboriously translate it word for word. And a person reading a translated version would have to hope that the translator has done a good enough job in making the translation as to keep not only the storyline, but the "feel" of the book.

The bottom line is that the international literary "experts" are confined to a few major languages. And most literary "classics' are also confined to these language.  Thai isn't one of them.  Nor is Bantu, Vogul, or Buryat.  And works in these languages just are not going to get the attention of the literary world at large. Nor will they have the same exposure due to many reasons, not the least of being a lack of talented, artistic translators.

If a author writes a book that only he or she understands, then I would say it is not good literature (although how many people really understand Joyce?)  But merely because English or German or French or Spanish or Italian or whatever speakers cannot understand a book written in a native language does not mean the writing is unworthy.

[caf]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

I see Thai crowded in each and every bookstore. I see Thai children reading novels when I go into their homes. To say that Thais do not read is simply ludicrous, in my opinion.

Thai is not a world language. It pales in international usage to even languages like Greek and Norwegian, languages spoken by far fewer people. So it is not surprising to me that the world literary body is not focused on Thai literature. Think of it. If a writer in Jamaica or Paraguay writes a book in his or her native language, there is an immediate worldwide market of a billion people at least. But if a Thai writes something, well, only Thais can understand it.

For people who insist that Thailand does not have good literature, well, unless you are fluent in Thai, I don't think you can rationally make that assertion.

Your experience must be different from many others then. Thais are not great readers. They even learn mainly by rote rather than by reading independently. They are more encouraged to accept than to read for themselves. I assume you accept that.

And one does not have to be a fluent Thai speaker in order to make a comment about Thai literature. I am not Russian but I still enjoy Tolstoy and can comment on his works.

On translations, they can be excellent or bad, of course. I have read Camus' La Peste in the original and in translation and in my view the translation is faithful to the original - not an easy task for the translator given the many levels on which that book can be read

[caf]

Let's take it a step further and say that no one but a well educated native speaker of a language can make such a judgment.

A foreigner or someone who is not well read will obviously interpret the words and meaning much differently that a native speaking University professor.

In fact, if you want to go even further, only the original writer can interpret the words 100 % correctly.

That is taking it past the extreme to the ludicrous.

Most English speakers can read and enjoy The Old Man and the Sea, no matter their education level. But a Chinese student, even if he or she has taken English lessons, will probably not enjoy it as much as he or she laboriously translate it word for word. And a person reading a translated version would have to hope that the translator has done a good enough job in making the translation as to keep not only the storyline, but the "feel" of the book.

The bottom line is that the international literary "experts" are confined to a few major languages. And most literary "classics' are also confined to these language. Thai isn't one of them. Nor is Bantu, Vogul, or Buryat. And works in these languages just are not going to get the attention of the literary world at large. Nor will they have the same exposure due to many reasons, not the least of being a lack of talented, artistic translators.

If a author writes a book that only he or she understands, then I would say it is not good literature (although how many people really understand Joyce?) But merely because English or German or French or Spanish or Italian or whatever speakers cannot understand a book written in a native language does not mean the writing is unworthy.

Sorry, I am with Ulysses on this one. In a very few words he has summarised some major points.

[Ulysses G.]

Can they decide by reading a good translation?

[IanForbes]

Interesting how a thread strays off topic. I enjoyed the repartee between bonobo and Ulysses.

[Ulysses G.]

Pira Sudham is a Thai writer who I enjoy, but he only writes in English as he claims that the Thai Language can not express many ideas that are common in other languages.

It seems to me, that it would be difficult to write well when one is so limited by the language itself.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[bonobo]

Your experience must be different from many others then. Thais are not great readers. They even learn mainly by rote rather than by reading independently. They are more encouraged to accept than to read for themselves. I assume you accept that.

And one does not have to be a fluent Thai speaker in order to make a comment about Thai literature. I am not Russian but I still enjoy Tolstoy and can comment on his works.

On translations, they can be excellent or bad, of course. I have read Camus' La Peste in the original and in translation and in my view the translation is faithful to the original - not an easy task for the translator given the many levels on which that book can be read

As a former professor with many international students, I would agree that in the academic world, most Thais are taught more to accept what they read rather than question it.  But they still read.

And your point on Le Pest is well taken, but that also goes to support my point. French is one of the "literary languages," if I can coin a phrase.  Camus has been translated time and time again by people skilled in doing so.  And cream rises to the top, so you were able to read a good translation.

Same holds for War and Peace.  This has been translated hundreds of times.  And while there isn't a way that English can convey the same richness as the original version as English is lacking when compared to Russian in conveying emotional subtext, a good English version is still a good read.

But to say that because there are good books in English, Russian, French, Spanish, etc but none in Thai because you have not read one is not a rational argument.  I have never seen one of the giant catfish in the Mekong, but that does not mean they don't exist.  

And i am sorry to write this, but flatly denying that there could be good Thai literature because western-oriented "experts" don't declare that there is any is a crass form of cultural elitism.

[Payboy]

And anyway the days of the coup d'état are probably over for good. Sir Anthony Rumbold, 1967

[caf]

Your experience must be different from many others then. Thais are not great readers. They even learn mainly by rote rather than by reading independently. They are more encouraged to accept than to read for themselves. I assume you accept that.

And one does not have to be a fluent Thai speaker in order to make a comment about Thai literature. I am not Russian but I still enjoy Tolstoy and can comment on his works.

On translations, they can be excellent or bad, of course. I have read Camus' La Peste in the original and in translation and in my view the translation is faithful to the original - not an easy task for the translator given the many levels on which that book can be read

As a former professor with many international students, I would agree that in the academic world, most Thais are taught more to accept what they read rather than question it. But they still read.

And your point on Le Pest is well taken, but that also goes to support my point. French is one of the "literary languages," if I can coin a phrase. Camus has been translated time and time again by people skilled in doing so. And cream rises to the top, so you were able to read a good translation.

Same holds for War and Peace. This has been translated hundreds of times. And while there isn't a way that English can convey the same richness as the original version as English is lacking when compared to Russian in conveying emotional subtext, a good English version is still a good read.

But to say that because there are good books in English, Russian, French, Spanish, etc but none in Thai because you have not read one is not a rational argument. I have never seen one of the giant catfish in the Mekong, but that does not mean they don't exist.

And i am sorry to write this, but flatly denying that there could be good Thai literature because western-oriented "experts" don't declare that there is any is a crass form of cultural elitism.

Hello, former professor! I think you need a revision course in elementary reading quite frankly.

I did not say there were no good books in Thai.

And I did not flatly deny good Thai literature because experts said so.

At least you say you are sorry. That's a start

But when you reply to posts can you get your facts right first and do not misquote.

[Huey]

And i am sorry to write this, but flatly denying that there could be good Thai literature because western-oriented "experts" don't declare that there is any is a crass form of cultural elitism.

Thank You Bonobo, You both accurately and eloquently brought to light that simple truth that I knew in my heart, but had neither the patience or the luxury time to defend properly.

[mrtoad]

And anyway the days of the coup d'état are probably over for good. Sir Anthony Rumbold, 1967

That was a particular classic statement, but I do believe that what Rumbold wrote was interesting and not deliberately condescending. I am more shocked that Quinton Quayle felt the need to actually respond to it, considering that if anyone with half a brain could have seen that there was no malice in what was witten, and that a lot of it has been taken out of context.