Buying Land In Isan

[Gonsalviz]

Everything I read says that this land SPG 4-01 is cannot be sold and can only be transferred by inheritance. In addition can only be used for agricultural purposes.

My Thai wife says they buy and sell it all the time and can build on it also. Not only does she say it but they have done it.

She says the land can be converted to a chanote.

Any thoughts?

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - SPG land does change hands up and down the country on a regular basis – usually on the nod of some or other local official, and by and large such transactions are problem free down the road.

What the law says in Thailand, and what actually takes place on the ground (excuse pun) are often 2 very different things, and the buying/selling of SPG land is another example of this practice/attitude towards rules & regulations in the Kingdom.

But keep in mind, the law is clear: SPG land cannot be bought or sold – period.

These are strictly speaking transactions which if challenged for some other reason at some point down the road e.g. the long lost missing relative who suddenly turns up out of the blue from nowhere, and is spiteful for having been done out of a potential inheritance, and decides to complain to some or other higher official or authority than that who allowed the sale to go through in the first place, the odds are he will ultimately be successful with his complaint if it is based on a legitmate violation of the law, and he pursues it hard enough and through a diligent official - and by that i have yet to see a law that allows local officials to legitimately authorise the sale/purchase of land that has been catorgorised as SPG land.

Be under no illusion – the law is clear: SPG land cannot be bought and/or sold, and if the above were to happen you would loose your investment.

In reality, I think the question that has to be asked, is, just what are the real world risks – and if you can somehow quantify them for your area e.g. there are many examples in your area of SPG land that has been sold to a 3rd party, and which have never been challenged, I guess that speaks something for the “risk” i.e. that chances are you are going to have no problems down the road.

Now weigh that up against some unknown future potential risk and decide if it’s a risk you want to take – and that’s your answer. It’s very much a personal thing.

But, and I’ll repeat it again: this doesn’t change the law – it’s clear: SPK land cannot be bought or sold, and if (note that word:”if”) your purchase is challenged by a complainant, through a diligent “by-the-book” type of higher official than he who gave the nod to the sale in the first place, chances are you will have little to defend your investment with, or way of recovering any money you paid out.

Can SPG land be changed to Chanote?

Yes, many examples of this, and they are 100% legal – and if you can get SPG land and then succefully apply for and get a Chanote title, you’ve done well. The criteria to apply for Chanote vary and are subject to varying interpretation from region to region, and by processing official to processing official, but one thing seems pretty consistent across the board: the applications take years to complete and there is no garuntee that you will get a Chanote. Another often quoted criteria looked at is just how long the SPG holder has had the land in their name, or how long has it been in the family name – with the longer it has been in the applicants name or the applicant’s family, the stronger the case in favour for a Chanote been granted.

Restrictions on SPG land?

It’s agriculture land – cannot be used to build a factory on, or build a house on, or run a business on ect ect etc…… the law also limits the construction of any abode to been of “tempory” nature, but in reality it’s a very grey area and lots of folk end up building a home on the SPG land, with out problems. The problem that has to be overcome (and this goes back to how you deal with and how flexible the planning officer is) is getting planning permission – get it and you shouldn’t have a problem – after all, the planning officer is going to be well aware of the status of the land when considering the application so be prepered to buy a cup of tea for him if he asks.

Speaking for myself - is it a risk I would ever take? - Nope, in my personal opinion the potential risks outweight the potential benefits, and things can get real messy if when it all goes wrong when you have built your house on it ect ect ...... That said there are ex-pats who I have heard of who have taken the plunge.

Buying SPG land is a personal thing - the law is clear, but as said earlier, what the law says and what actually takes place are often 2 very different things.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[Mosha]

Can you imagine what would happen if they actually applied the law?

[getgoin]

Sor Por Kor land comes under the jurisdiction of the Forestry Department as opposed to the Land Department. It is a true title deed and is fully surveyed and pegged. Sor Por Kor can not be bought, sold or rented but it can be given up and transferred to a new owner. This is done through the village headman. The previous owner signs a paper saying that they are giving up the Sor Por Kor and for a price (very small) the improvements on the property are being transferred to the new owner or new user of the land. They are, in effect, giving you the land for the price of the improvements. In many cases the land paper simply changes hands with the nod of the headman and remains in the name of the previous owner. A new Sor Por Kor can be issued in a new owner's name and the means for this vary between provinces and the price varies.

Sor Por Kor land can be developed and you can build a house on it. You would have a hard time building a housing development or a hotel but I have seen many small resorts on Sor Por Kor. You can also get a small mortgage from the Agricultural Bank for agricultural purposes. Sor Por Kor land is not necessarily agriculture land but the use is usually limited to agriculture or agriculture related. Sor Por Kor land was originally suppose to be forest land that was degraded but many people without land titles applied for this paper thinking that it would be changed over to a Chanote after a certain number of years. A lot of land that did not qualify as Sor Por Kor was issued Sor Por Kor paper.

The common misconception is that this land belongs to the government and that they might take it back at some time. The other common misconception is that this land can not change hands, thus the referral to not buying, selling or rental of the property.

Foreigners are afraid of Sor Por Kor, Thais are not. Sor Por Kor land is becoming more valuable as the price of land with a Chanote or NS3 becomes exorbitant.

The title can be converted to Chanote but this involves giving up the Sor Por Kor land deed to the Forestry Department and then applying for a new Chanote or NS3 be issued from the Land Department. A double whammy, timely and expensive.

A big problem with Sor Por Kor is that if you wanted to sell/transfer it to a new user it is difficult and takes time.

You should have paperwork showing that the owner of the land gave it up and the village headman had given his consent and you should not have the problem with a long lost relative coming to look for their inheritance.

There have been cases where a "sale" of the land was ruled not legal and the land returned to the original owner or their direct (close, not long lost) descendants. You can not buy Sor Por Kor. Getting a new Sor Por Kor in your wife's name would be a good idea and the latest quote in CM has been as high as 900,000 Baht from an attorney to 100,000 Baht from a guy in the local village that facilitates land transfers.

The Sor Por Kor is a true land title deed managed by the Forestry Department that is simply stamped on the back that it can not be sold, transferred or rented, except that it can be passed on to direct siblings.

I believe that the government of Thailand will have a windfall of land transfers and fees and a huge injection to their economy when they decide to stamp the back that it is OK to sell. No one knows or can speculate when this will happen. The law is clear on only one thing and that is that the law is not clear. Don't forget the grease. Always helps. And remember that foreigners might be subject to discrimination, particularly with land that was suppose to be for the landless peasants.

[Gonsalviz]

Sor Por Kor land comes under the jurisdiction of the Forestry Department as opposed to the Land Department. It is a true title deed and is fully surveyed and pegged. Sor Por Kor can not be bought, sold or rented but it can be given up and transferred to a new owner. This is done through the village headman. The previous owner signs a paper saying that they are giving up the Sor Por Kor and for a price (very small) the improvements on the property are being transferred to the new owner or new user of the land. They are, in effect, giving you the land for the price of the improvements. In many cases the land paper simply changes hands with the nod of the headman and remains in the name of the previous owner. A new Sor Por Kor can be issued in a new owner's name and the means for this vary between provinces and the price varies.

Sor Por Kor land can be developed and you can build a house on it. You would have a hard time building a housing development or a hotel but I have seen many small resorts on Sor Por Kor. You can also get a small mortgage from the Agricultural Bank for agricultural purposes. Sor Por Kor land is not necessarily agriculture land but the use is usually limited to agriculture or agriculture related. Sor Por Kor land was originally suppose to be forest land that was degraded but many people without land titles applied for this paper thinking that it would be changed over to a Chanote after a certain number of years. A lot of land that did not qualify as Sor Por Kor was issued Sor Por Kor paper.

The common misconception is that this land belongs to the government and that they might take it back at some time. The other common misconception is that this land can not change hands, thus the referral to not buying, selling or rental of the property.

Foreigners are afraid of Sor Por Kor, Thais are not. Sor Por Kor land is becoming more valuable as the price of land with a Chanote or NS3 becomes exorbitant.

The title can be converted to Chanote but this involves giving up the Sor Por Kor land deed to the Forestry Department and then applying for a new Chanote or NS3 be issued from the Land Department. A double whammy, timely and expensive.

A big problem with Sor Por Kor is that if you wanted to sell/transfer it to a new user it is difficult and takes time.

You should have paperwork showing that the owner of the land gave it up and the village headman had given his consent and you should not have the problem with a long lost relative coming to look for their inheritance.

There have been cases where a "sale" of the land was ruled not legal and the land returned to the original owner or their direct (close, not long lost) descendants. You can not buy Sor Por Kor. Getting a new Sor Por Kor in your wife's name would be a good idea and the latest quote in CM has been as high as 900,000 Baht from an attorney to 100,000 Baht from a guy in the local village that facilitates land transfers.

The Sor Por Kor is a true land title deed managed by the Forestry Department that is simply stamped on the back that it can not be sold, transferred or rented, except that it can be passed on to direct siblings.

I believe that the government of Thailand will have a windfall of land transfers and fees and a huge injection to their economy when they decide to stamp the back that it is OK to sell. No one knows or can speculate when this will happen. The law is clear on only one thing and that is that the law is not clear. Don't forget the grease. Always helps. And remember that foreigners might be subject to discrimination, particularly with land that was suppose to be for the landless peasants.

Thanks for the replies. It sets better with me now.

My wife is a sharp one. I think thins will be good.

[Maizefarmer]

Sor Por Kor land comes under the jurisdiction of the Forestry Department as opposed to the Land Department. It is a true title deed and is fully surveyed and pegged. Sor Por Kor can not be bought, sold or rented but it can be given up and transferred to a new owner. This is done through the village headman. The previous owner signs a paper saying that they are giving up the Sor Por Kor and for a price (very small) the improvements on the property are being transferred to the new owner or new user of the land. They are, in effect, giving you the land for the price of the improvements. In many cases the land paper simply changes hands with the nod of the headman and remains in the name of the previous owner. A new Sor Por Kor can be issued in a new owner's name and the means for this vary between provinces and the price varies.

Sor Por Kor land can be developed and you can build a house on it. You would have a hard time building a housing development or a hotel but I have seen many small resorts on Sor Por Kor. You can also get a small mortgage from the Agricultural Bank for agricultural purposes. Sor Por Kor land is not necessarily agriculture land but the use is usually limited to agriculture or agriculture related. Sor Por Kor land was originally suppose to be forest land that was degraded but many people without land titles applied for this paper thinking that it would be changed over to a Chanote after a certain number of years. A lot of land that did not qualify as Sor Por Kor was issued Sor Por Kor paper.

The common misconception is that this land belongs to the government and that they might take it back at some time. The other common misconception is that this land can not change hands, thus the referral to not buying, selling or rental of the property.

Foreigners are afraid of Sor Por Kor, Thais are not. Sor Por Kor land is becoming more valuable as the price of land with a Chanote or NS3 becomes exorbitant.

The title can be converted to Chanote but this involves giving up the Sor Por Kor land deed to the Forestry Department and then applying for a new Chanote or NS3 be issued from the Land Department. A double whammy, timely and expensive.

A big problem with Sor Por Kor is that if you wanted to sell/transfer it to a new user it is difficult and takes time.

You should have paperwork showing that the owner of the land gave it up and the village headman had given his consent and you should not have the problem with a long lost relative coming to look for their inheritance.

There have been cases where a "sale" of the land was ruled not legal and the land returned to the original owner or their direct (close, not long lost) descendants. You can not buy Sor Por Kor. Getting a new Sor Por Kor in your wife's name would be a good idea and the latest quote in CM has been as high as 900,000 Baht from an attorney to 100,000 Baht from a guy in the local village that facilitates land transfers.

The Sor Por Kor is a true land title deed managed by the Forestry Department that is simply stamped on the back that it can not be sold, transferred or rented, except that it can be passed on to direct siblings.

I believe that the government of Thailand will have a windfall of land transfers and fees and a huge injection to their economy when they decide to stamp the back that it is OK to sell. No one knows or can speculate when this will happen. The law is clear on only one thing and that is that the law is not clear. Don't forget the grease. Always helps. And remember that foreigners might be subject to discrimination, particularly with land that was suppose to be for the landless peasants.

You make sound as if its worth the risk .......... the stats show that its a fraction of a fraction of a single percentage of SPG land that ever changes hands in any other but the correct legislated manner ..... for every Thai you can show me who is willing to dabble in SPG land, I'll show you a 100 who won't.

...... and as for a windfall in land tranfer fees: its exactly what Thaksin tried to push through parliment, didn't he now (and Lekpai .... and a few other PM's) - and who said, "no - SPG land cannot ever be allowed to be sold and bought"?? - the exact same people in parliment now. Samak (of all people) tired to get parliment to approve the rental of SPG land - he couldn't even get it past the first hearing.

Every few years, someone tries to push some or other amendment to SPG land through parliment, and what happens - every time when push comes to shove wiser heads prevail, it always gets thrown out. To loosen the reigns in any way on SPG land will see a free for all by the rich at the long term expense of the poor

It won't happen - certainly not on our lifetime.

[getgoin]

You make sound as if its worth the risk .......... the stats show that its a fraction of a fraction of a single percentage of SPG land that ever changes hands in any other but the correct legislated manner ..... for every Thai you can show me who is willing to dabble in SPG land, I'll show you a 100 who won't.

I'm not saying anything about the risk. I am merely stating the facts. I am not saying the OP should or should not acquire this land. I am just saying how it is done and it is happening everyday in every area in Thailand. Is it a good and valid investment? That's up to the OP to decide. In some areas all the paper is SPG. It is difficult to get rid of. That's what I have said.

You said, "Yes - SPG land does change hands up and down the country on a regular basis – usually on the nod of some or other local official, and by and large such transactions are problem free down the road."

Will the rich exploit this down the road? Probably, when it suits the government to clean up the multi levels of land ownership in Thailand and they stand to make a profit from it or votes then something will happen. I am not speculating on when that will happen or if it ever will.

Edited October 25, 2009 by getgoin

[Maizefarmer]

Fair comment .........