New Sex Change Regulations Set To Take Effect

[neverdie]

DF,

Whilst screaming eagle points out some interesting points and whilst I am certainly no expert on the subject, I recall reading an article that addressed the issue of DNA playing some part in all of this and one group of scientists looking into the issue believed there was some part of the genetic makeup in certain races of people that made these transgender issues more dominant in some than others. I believe Thailand and Brazil were studied in relation to this issue.

I read the information in a medical journal some years back and cant remember where or what the journal was, nor can i be bothered worrying about it.

It is evident however that many children, pre-pubesent identify with the transgender type long before they know about things like, sex, prostitution and army conscription. I have absolutely no idea what the percentage of LB working the evil scene as opposed to a more wholesome way of life but your idea that all LB live with the idea of duping tourists is silly.

I have absolutely no like for the type of individuals you describe in the street, nor do I have the tolerence for idiotic posts that suggest any one group of persons should be branded this or that with tatoos or patches based on something that is highly likely out of their control. Now give yourself an uppercut & get on with it.

[Likenitstill]

Speaking of field research here is an interesting bit of information. I have gone to some of the Katoy shows or Katoy bars with friends and have had a good time; they are mostly friendly and put on a good show. Some even expose their breast and some are even lactating. This is obviously from some of the hormones they are taking.

I have been told on several accounts in conversation with some of them that they could not be employed there if they had undergone the gender reassignment. They said it makes their minds screwed up and their boss would forbid it. Folks this is right from the horse’s mouth.

Think on that as a reason that justifies why a psychiatrist should be sought after.

[DegenFarang]

Good post until this

something that is highly likely out of their control

Having surgery to turn yourself into a woman is something that is certainly within your control. Wandering the streets and grabbing tourists, trying to sell your body is also something that is very much within their control. While I'll submit that there are probably many ladyboys who felt they were women from an early age, anybody who thinks that a large proportion of them don't go into it for the money is fooling themselves. Lets look at it this way: What % of Thai women do you think are prostitutes? What % of ladyboys do you think are prostitutes? I don't know the answer to either, but I'd bet my right arm that the proportion of ladyboys who work as prostitutes dwarfs that of the % of Thai women who do.

Since it appears many people believe there are lots of ladyboys living a normal non street-walking prostitute life, I'll revise my statement to say that all ladybody prostitutes should be required to identify themselves in some way as ladyboys, so that unsuspecting tourists (and expats) are not fooled into sleeping with them.

Edited November 1, 2009 by DegenFarang

[neverdie]

Good post until this

something that is highly likely out of their control

Having surgery to turn yourself into a woman is something that is certainly within your control. Wandering the streets and grabbing tourists, trying to sell your body is also something that is very much within their control. While I'll submit that there are probably many ladyboys who felt they were women from an early age, anybody who thinks that a large proportion of them don't go into it for the money is fooling themselves. Lets look at it this way: What % of Thai women do you think are prostitutes? What % of ladyboys do you think are prostitutes? I don't know the answer to either, but I'd bet my right arm that the proportion of ladyboys who work as prostitutes dwarfs that of the % of Thai women who do.

Since it appears many people believe there are lots of ladyboys living a normal non street-walking prostitute life, I'll revise my statement to say that all ladybody prostitutes should be required to identify themselves in some way as ladyboys, so that unsuspecting tourists (and expats) are not fooled into sleeping with them.

When I used the term "something that is highly likely out of their control" I was referring to their desire to be female, as opposed to a male (probably the incorrect way to say it) but im sure you NOW understand what I mean?

[neverdie]

Since it appears many people believe there are lots of ladyboys living a normal non street-walking prostitute life, I'll revise my statement to say that all ladybody prostitutes should be required to identify themselves in some way as ladyboys, so that unsuspecting tourists (and expats) are not fooled into sleeping with them.

So you expect people to walk around admitting to their illegal activities by posting a neon sign above their heads......

okay, all drug dealers, please wear this coloured patch, rockspiders this colour and so forth

Get real Degen, you need professional help with this, we are sorry that you obviously bedded down with a ladyboy, perhaps she even rolled you over and turned you into her toy boy, you really should take more care when your out on the streets trying to satisfy your strange perverted desires.

[Badbanker]

Sadly the majority of Ladyboys I come up against in Police work have done something illegal.

We arrested one last Monday night who had stolen a phone and 20,000 baht after forcing himself on an Omani man. On arriving at the Police Station, a check of an ID card of the person that was arrested was made, and it was found that this particular ladyboy had another 4 cases of theft from foreigners pending on the books that he had run away from and now will be spending about 3-5 years in the slammer. No bail this time.

Actually he was a very beautiful ladyboy, but the behaviour of ladyboys in Thailand sadly betrays the minority of genuine trangender people seeking a new sexual identity.!

When you arrest a ladyboy they suddenly lose all the female pretense and fight and speak like a man. My opinion is a large number of ladyboys are doing it for the money and are hated by the police for the genuine problems they casue in society!

BB

[DegenFarang]

Well I guess maybe I have overestimated the proportion of ladyboys who get the operation simply to become prostitutes. I just had lunch with the girlfriend and while being served by a ladyboy 'waitress' I brought this topic up. She said there are lots and lots of ladyboys who work in all facets of Thai business and government in office jobs, as teachers etc etc etc. Maybe its selective memory but in four years here it seems like 90% of the ladyboys I have seen have been hookers, so I suppose I stand somewhat corrected. Maybe the governments intentions aren't so much to curb the flow of ladyboy hookers and have more to do with the well being of the Thai people.

[DegenFarang]

we are sorry that you obviously bedded down with a ladyboy

Luckily, and honestly, I don't know for certain that I ever have had sex with a ladyboy. But in four years I've easily had sex with 100 whores - from a purely mathematical standpoint it seems nearly impossible that one of them wasn't a ladyboy. Anybody who has had a similar sexual history in Thailand is in the same boat as me, whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

Edited November 1, 2009 by DegenFarang

[neverdie]

Sadly the majority of Ladyboys I come up against in Police work have done something illegal.

We arrested one last Monday night who had stolen a phone and 20,000 baht after forcing himself on an Omani man. On arriving at the Police Station, a check of an ID card of the person that was arrested was made, and it was found that this particular ladyboy had another 4 cases of theft from foreigners pending on the books that he had run away from and now will be spending about 3-5 years in the slammer. No bail this time.

Actually he was a very beautiful ladyboy, but the behaviour of ladyboys in Thailand sadly betrays the minority of genuine trangender people seeking a new sexual identity.!

When you arrest a ladyboy they suddenly lose all the female pretense and fight and speak like a man. My opinion is a large number of ladyboys are doing it for the money and are hated by the police for the genuine problems they casue in society!

BB

BB,

Whilst I don't doubt what you are saying one little bit, you really need to stand back and take a long hard look at what you have said and put it in proportion. Of course you are coming into contact with the trashy portion of transgender people, thats the nature of the Policing beast, you get to meet the very worst of people from just about every walk of life, race or creed.

Anyway, whats a 'large proportion' ??? Seriously, how many of Thailands 400,000 ladyboys are you suggesting are actually involved in this type of thing and for this reason??? If it was 5%, that would mean that theres 20,000 LB running around various parts of Thailand just engaging in transexualism for the sex trade & so they can rip off tourists......sorry, I don't think so. If it was 5%, do you think it is fair that all ladyboys should be branded as evil because of 5% of their population?

[neverdie]

Well I guess maybe I have overestimated the proportion of ladyboys who get the operation simply to become prostitutes. I just had lunch with the girlfriend and while being served by a ladyboy 'waitress' I brought this topic up. She said there are lots and lots of ladyboys who work in all facets of Thai business and government in office jobs, as teachers etc etc etc. Maybe its selective memory but in four years here it seems like 90% of the ladyboys I have seen have been hookers, so I suppose I stand somewhat corrected. Maybe the governments intentions aren't so much to curb the flow of ladyboy hookers and have more to do with the well being of the Thai people.

DG, interesting youve come full circle in just a few posts, its true though what you say, they are virtually in just about every walk of life. Anyway, heres to u chap

[joker]

Less ladybodys can never be a bad thing. Maybe some of the government officials made a trip down Nana after 2am. It is 98% ladyboys roaming the steets. Nearly the same way on Walking Steet after 3-4am - 75%+ ladyboys. Lonely tourists who struck out earlier in the night and are drunk are surely dragging home these 'women' - and regretting it in the morning, if they even ever find out.

What % of people who bang ladyboys do you reckon actually know they are banging a ladybody? For expats I'd say its less than 40% - four tourists it has to be less than 15%. Pretty terrible. I dare say in all of the drunken encounters I've had over the years, the odds of me not having accidentally taken one home have got to be astronomical. Anybody who regularly takes home bar girls and the like and says otherwise has self delusions on a grand scale.

Get rid of the ladyboys I say, or make them wear big purple patches on their shoulder or something.

Or why not make them wear a yellow star and put them in a ghetto? Better still, forcibly castrate them and tattoo a number on their arms. You should be ashamed of yourself

There soul reason for the operation (in most cases) is to fool foreigners into having sex with them. Why do you think the Phuket police are having a big ladyboy crackdown ahead of the US Marines arriving this week.

If there is some other reason so many men in Thailand choose to become women, please do enlighten me. It is my understanding that the primary reason is so they can go into the sex industry. This would be fine and dandy if the majority of their customers actually knew they were sleeping with a ladybody, however this is not the case - most think it is actually a woman.

Disgusting post like this is really not needed!

And PLEASE, how many foreigners really don't know they are with a ladyboy?

Ok, at a bar unless they don't have a deep voice, you might be fooled but not in

the bedroom! No amount of sticky tape can hide that fact if you have your senses

with you. Remember, I am talking about a boy dressed up as a lady and may have

only had breast implants done. There are many walking around for sure.

Someone who has had complete body surgery, well that is a transsexual anyway,

not really a ladyboy and in that case it's just a case of looking at the hands or feet.

You must be really drunk not too know or just plain stupid!

Many 'hetero' men who say they didn't know, say it out of shame amongst their

friends and while married, are often 'closet' gays anyway.

Ladyboys, tansvestites, transsexuals are all human beings, so let's treat them as such,

please.

[stkyricesf]

By the way KKK is way off. I cried when Barack Obama was elected my president and minored in Black Studies at University. I'm a California bleeding liberal - for gay marriage and very against any kind of racism in America. However this is Thailand. It's a very racist society in its own right, classist as well. I don't think there is anything fundamentally unethical about not liking ladyboys - given that their sole intent is to dupe people into thinking they are women and paying them for sex.

Ladyboys are the third sex in Thai culture. Sometimes it really irritates me when people say 'bleeding liberal' then turn around and want to impose their narrow thinking on other countries. It has been stated that these changes bring Thailand into the way most western civilized countries handle sex change regulations. I submit to you, Thailand is different, both culturallly and mentally. Why would all countries or peoples change to western thinking?

[animatic]

The may get the tits and a few adjustments to work the street business,

but getting that final cut, and this IS the basis of what this regulation is about,

is for a small minority and NOT to work hooking any more in most cases.

Once that have done that and if they can afford their hormones they stop hooking if possible..

Most just want to find one man and settle down in peace and quiet.

Some feel content to just live life as a woman, but without the final cut.

Especially with a compatible mate who doesn't care.

Some feel self-compelled to complete the transitions, but for that,

psychological evaluation is a good idea. No disputing that.

I know three in my general extended circle of friends an acquaintances.

One is a full time waitress, happily settled in with a man for some time now,

and living 24/7 as the female she looks and acts like.

One is a very nice and competent resort hostess and is in a similar stable relationship,

and hardly ever utters a loud word.

One is a 'uniformed' masseuse with Wat Po training and doesn't do 'specials'

All three are very pleasant people to be around, and know no troubles.

By far best makeup artists in the Bangkok film and stage industries are Katoeys.

And not just the overblown Cabaret style, but finesseful work,

and can turn a sows ear into a silk purse in an hour.

The point being;

far from all ladyboys are whoring to get the final cut, and to keep on whoring.

The great majority resent that portion of their subculture and ESPECIALLY the thieves

who tar them all with the same brush.

In ANY grouping of people, there will be a percentage with less strictures of morality,

and greater need for cash and so there are in any group those that get pinched for crimes.

Bankers, Doctors, Ladyboys, Bar owners, Politicians, Housewives, Realestate agents.

Degen you have been hanging out in the wrong places for sure.

Edited November 1, 2009 by animatic

[JRinger]

Less ladybodys can never be a bad thing. Maybe some of the government officials made a trip down Nana after 2am. It is 98% ladyboys roaming the steets. Nearly the same way on Walking Steet after 3-4am - 75%+ ladyboys. Lonely tourists who struck out earlier in the night and are drunk are surely dragging home these 'women' - and regretting it in the morning, if they even ever find out.

What % of people who bang ladyboys do you reckon actually know they are banging a ladybody? For expats I'd say its less than 40% - four tourists it has to be less than 15%. Pretty terrible. I dare say in all of the drunken encounters I've had over the years, the odds of me not having accidentally taken one home have got to be astronomical. Anybody who regularly takes home bar girls and the like and says otherwise has self delusions on a grand scale.

Get rid of the ladyboys I say, or make them wear big purple patches on their shoulder or something.

Or why not make them wear a yellow star and put them in a ghetto? Better still, forcibly castrate them and tattoo a number on their arms. You should be ashamed of yourself

I'm in agreement with the star, castration & tattoo but surely there's a more appropriate place than a "ghetto"?

[Badbanker]

Sadly aside from my encounters with ladyboys in the area of policing, I live in a house in a soi that has a number of apartment buildings. As I live in one of the only houses in the soi and I am known to be a bit affluent I get hit on by ladyboys at least once a day.

It peeves me no end for this to happen. There must be at least 25 of them in my soi most of which come home at 5-6 am every day as I am taking my wife to work. They speak to me in trashy in thailish and offer their services to me even in front of my 10 year old son. It has now got to the point that I tell them in fluent Thai that I am involved with the Police and most of what I do is arrest ladyboys for theft. Would you like me to arrest you? They seem to have got the message for now.

Sadly it is my experience that a vast majority of men who decide that they want to be women in this country have not and cannot integrate in to Thai society. I have worked in both the private and public service for more than 20 years and have almost never met transsexual men in the course of business. This is because the real attitude toward them by Thai society is that they are mentally unbalanced and not to be trusted.

It seems that Thai society can accept them working in department stores selling cosmetics and in restaurants as waiters. In the entertainment industry ladyboys rule in the makeup artist industry. No question! In some sectors of the advertising industry there is a major niche they also fill but society as a whole does not accept them!

This is just my experience!

BB

[neverdie]

It has now got to the point that I tell them in fluent Thai that I am involved with the Police and most of what I do is arrest ladyboys for theft. Would you like me to arrest you? They seem to have got the message for now.

BB

I especially like the way you pump out your chest when you talk about your volunteer policework . I am imagining that you are somewhat new to that game, or perhaps just stupid. You may find that one day whilst moving about bragging about locking people up or threatening to do so that one of them may lay you out good and proper. You'[d probably be best off calling the 'real' police if somebody needs to be arrested .

Edited November 2, 2009 by neverdie

[neverdie]

.

Disgusting post like this is really not needed!

And PLEASE, how many foreigners really don't know they are with a ladyboy?

Ok, at a bar unless they don't have a deep voice, you might be fooled but not in

the bedroom! No amount of sticky tape can hide that fact if you have your senses

with you. Remember, I am talking about a boy dressed up as a lady and may have

only had breast implants done. There are many walking around for sure.

Someone who has had complete body surgery, well that is a transsexual anyway,

not really a ladyboy and in that case it's just a case of looking at the hands or feet.

You must be really drunk not too know or just plain stupid!

Many 'hetero' men who say they didn't know, say it out of shame amongst their

friends and while married, are often 'closet' gays anyway.

Ladyboys, tansvestites, transsexuals are all human beings, so let's treat them as such,

please.

Joker, whilst i agree with what you are saying, your post is factually incorrect.

Apparently, a transexual doesnt have to have complete body surgery to be classed a transexual, also I use to think looking at the hands and feet, perhaps the hips, or the adams apple were sure bet ways of identifying a katoey....HOWEVER, they arnt fail safe and not all Katoeys have massive feet, deep voices and protruding adams apples.

Dengen,

I dont really give a dam_n about any of them BUT I think its very rude for some FORIEGNER to thailand to come here on his almighty high horse and suggest that ALL transexual thai people should be flagged with neon lights to identify them as such.

It also amuses me that this same person is all so righteous when it comes to American Black people, but transexual thai people should be burned at the stake. What about people in wheel chairs or people with lepracy? Come on, get real.

[TAWP]

I don't think there is anything fundamentally unethical about not liking ladyboys - given that their sole intent is to dupe people into thinking they are women and paying them for sex.

Are you really this ignorant? Exchange their gender-status for race and what do you remind us of? I seem to remember this German fella who had a knack at painting everybody of a specific group of people as only out to trick the rest of the honest population...

Here is a tip: Try actually talking to one. Perhaps even outside the typical meat-market streets. You might discover something...

[sassienie]

I thought it is no longer politically correct to call men dressed as women, transvestites anymore.

Ain`t they all, cross dressers now?

Edited November 2, 2009 by sassienie

[stiggy]

Quote : I thought it is no longer politically correct to call men dressed as women, transvestites anymore.

Ain`t they all, cross dressers now?

Only after they have found out the new regulations......

[mrtoad]

Because I don't like ladyboys? Wow. Is this forum really full of ladybody lovers or is it just a civil rights issue?

I read once in a book that most of the long term expats prefer ladyboys. I thought it could never be true. Maybe it is...

No, the only truth is that you are a bigoted fool.

[HAL9000]

There's a lot of positive and negative posts here.

The one thing, as has been mentioned, is that we must not forget that they are human beings, and to the extent that they are honest and sincere, deserve compassion and respect, and to the extent that they are not, should be dealt with as any other male or female criminal.

Nevertheless, there is something disquieting about someone who lacks the serenity to accept the sex that they were born with. I think it is a serious self-esteem problem, and as manifest by the number who do later regret the sex-change operation, I think it is a serious mistake to let them take their self-esteem issues to the point of surgical alteration of their bodies. If they want to dress and act like women, let them be content to do so with their natural bodies.

[neverdie]

^I agree with the first two parragraphs of your post jkolak however you seem to lose the plot with the third parragraph.

Are you now suggesting that we control, perhaps legislate against people doing things to their own bodies.

Gender Disorder has alot more to do with than just low self esteem problems.

On one hand you suggest we treat these people like humans and in the next breath you are saying people with this are unable to make decisions for themselves?

[ScubaBuddha]

I thought it is no longer politically correct to call men dressed as women, transvestites anymore.

Ain`t they all, cross dressers now?

Thinking back to my human sexuality course in college a few years ago, (And refresshing my memory with Google) Technically they are the same thing. Transgender as well. But Transsexual has a specific medical definition, also called Gender Dysphoria.

"A transsexual is a person in which the sex-related structures of the brain that define gender identity are exactly opposite the physical sex organs of the body."

So you can see how that is different than "cross dresser." A cross dresser may be a transexual, and a transexual may very well cross dress, but one is an action, the other a medical condition. Not what you asked I know, but I was curious and had to look it up after your question.

[ScubaBuddha]

There's a lot of positive and negative posts here.

The one thing, as has been mentioned, is that we must not forget that they are human beings, and to the extent that they are honest and sincere, deserve compassion and respect, and to the extent that they are not, should be dealt with as any other male or female criminal.

Nevertheless, there is something disquieting about someone who lacks the serenity to accept the sex that they were born with. I think it is a serious self-esteem problem, and as manifest by the number who do later regret the sex-change operation, I think it is a serious mistake to let them take their self-esteem issues to the point of surgical alteration of their bodies. If they want to dress and act like women, let them be content to do so with their natural bodies.

Sounds like a very religiously inspired position. Have you ever heard of a person who regretted a sex change? I expect to hear such things from these people: http://www.exodusinternational.org/ who run homosexual correction camps. From thier website: "you don't have to be gay! You can lead a life of fulfillment and holiness as God intended, a life far better than what you have experienced so far" Reallly stomach churning stuff.

Maybe I can put it in terms you can understand...remember that episode of Star Trek TNG where Riker falls for the genderless species person? The planets laws force the genderless person to be brain washed because they feel "female." Go get it out of your collection and watch it I think you will understand.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[learn4life]

I would like to see hard stats for how many post-op transsexuals have regrets and how many actually commit suicide. I suspect that, in Thailand at least, far more transsexuals commit suicide because they can't find the money for an operation than over any regrets. The ones that compete in Miss Tiffany, etc, seem pretty content. Those are the lucky ones, who often started hormone treatments early and thus are hard to detect. I think these new regs may make all that more difficult to achieve, though only time will tell.

At the other end of the spectrum are the ones with no money who will be lucky to even afford legit hormone treatments, let alone an operation. I doubt the new regs will really affect them.

Surely it would be better to provide transsexuals with better legal support so they can get jobs, pay tax, get married and generally assimilate with society. Unless you're actually dating a transsexual, I don't see how their situation should be anyone's business.

Edited November 3, 2009 by learn4life

[neverdie]

^Really well said learn4life.

One thing about this place you will see, there are many people that will engage their keyboard before they really think something through.

Interestingly, you don't need to be dating a Katoey to care about one.

[learn4life]

Considering various other human rights issues dogging the gov't, they could do worse than issue female IDs and marriage licenses, and regain some lost face in the process. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, Iran actually does give transsexuals female IDs and marriage licenses with the blessing of the Ayatollahs. Surely this is one area where Thailand should be in the forefront?