Enlightenment Vs Unexpended Negative Kamma?

[rockyysdt]

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.

As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.

My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?

Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?

Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Edited October 28, 2009 by rockyysdt

[DJPogo98]

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.

As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.

My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?

Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?

Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Since I am not an arahat, I cannot comment authoritatively. But my small understanding is that if you have kamma, you will be reborn. Thus the goal is to accept the results of your previous kamma, and not generate any new kamma. When all accounts are settled, you will become a never returner. Of course, you will never become arahat to begin with if you do not have a sufficiently rich store of merit. According to the suttas, Buddha worked for something like 100,000 lifetimes (more I think) to create good kamma and exhaust the store of old kamma. He must have been running on kamma fumes in this, his last lifetime.

OH, btw, a tibetan lama told me that Buddha had no negative kamma, he simply manifested illness in order to teach his students that all beings were subject to birth, death, disease and old age.

Edited October 28, 2009 by DJPogo98

[Brucenkhamen]

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.

As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.

My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?

Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?

Actually incorrect if you are using the term suffering as a translation of dukkha.

Yes he had unpleasant or negative experiences but no he didn't suffer because of them, he didn't react to them negatively. The term suffering/dukkha has to do with ones reaction to the experience, not the experience itself.

As to your question it's a bit of an angels on a pinhead type question, things pan out as they pan out, the important thing is one has ceased suffering as a reaction to negative experiences.

Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Yes this is more like it.

[fabianfred]

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.

A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

[DJPogo98]

Actually incorrect if you are using the term suffering as a translation of dukkha.

Yes he had unpleasant or negative experiences but no he didn't suffer because of them, he didn't react to them negatively. The term suffering/dukkha has to do with ones reaction to the experience, not the experience itself.

As to your question it's a bit of an angels on a pinhead type question, things pan out as they pan out, the important thing is one has ceased suffering as a reaction to negative experiences.

Excellent point. The whole point of the noble eightfold path is the end of suffering through realization.

[rockyysdt]

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.

A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

Can one achieve enlightenment, even though one may carry a large store of negative khamma which as yet hasn't born fruit?

I understand the Buddha assisted an assassin/multi murderer to become Arahant within a life span in which the killings took place.

Apart from torturous killings involving much suffering I can't think of a bigger accumulator of negative khamma than to take kill another human.

[fabianfred]

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.

A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

Can one achieve enlightenment, even though one may carry a large store of negative khamma which as yet hasn't born fruit?

I understand the Buddha assisted an assassin/multi murderer to become Arahant within a life span in which the killings took place.

Apart from torturous killings involving much suffering I can't think of a bigger accumulator of negative khamma than to take kill another human.

Yes.

...and if we achieve stream-entry, a much more achievable goal in this lifetime, we are blocked from rebirth in the lower realms and have a maximum of seven lives before attaining Arahant....not much chance to pay off all the remaining karma waiting in the wings for its chance to bear fruit.

[rockyysdt]

Yes.

...and if we achieve stream-entry, a much more achievable goal in this lifetime, we are blocked from rebirth in the lower realms and have a maximum of seven lives before attaining Arahant....not much chance to pay off all the remaining karma waiting in the wings for its chance to bear fruit.

How do you achieve stream-entry?

Doesn't the act of killing humans way so heavily that your position falls away substantially?

[fabianfred]

Angulimala was acting upon the instructions of his teacher...although a serial killer....and had the benefit of being taught by the Buddha in person. Many listeners to the Buddha teaching attained to Stream-entry whilst doing so, and many monks attained to Arahant also.

To attain stream-entry we must conquer the first three fetters.... http://sped2work.tripod.com/fetters.html

Put basically...we must have unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha; reduce our ego as much as possible; keep the precepts as well as we possibly can; and to be sure we should practise vipassana meditation too.

In this way it is possible to attain stream-entry in theis very lifetime and thence be safe from rebirth in the lower realms. We can still suffer the fruit of past karma during the remaining maximum of seven lives before attaining arahant, but only in the human realm or higher realms, after which we will have escaped it.

We can have reached Stream-entry or even Sakdagami without realising it.

[rockyysdt]

Angulimala was acting upon the instructions of his teacher...although a serial killer....and had the benefit of being taught by the Buddha in person. Many listeners to the Buddha teaching attained to Stream-entry whilst doing so, and many monks attained to Arahant also.

To attain stream-entry we must conquer the first three fetters.... http://sped2work.tripod.com/fetters.html

Put basically...we must have unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha; reduce our ego as much as possible; keep the precepts as well as we possibly can; and to be sure we should practise vipassana meditation too.

In this way it is possible to attain stream-entry in this very lifetime and thence be safe from rebirth in the lower realms. We can still suffer the fruit of past karma during the remaining maximum of seven lives before attaining arahant, but only in the human realm or higher realms, after which we will have escaped it.

We can have reached Stream-entry or even Sakdagami without realising it.

It sounds like a life of strict dedication, perhaps as a monk in order to find the time.

When you say "keep the precepts as well as possible" do you mean the 5, 8, 10, or 227 precepts?

As I'm motivated by self interest with the promise of enlightenment within seven lifetimes via stream entry, isn't this very act contrary to attachment to ego?

[fabianfred]

5 precepts

Desire for the release from suffering of Nirvana is considered to be wholesome desire.

Quite attainable as a layman, although the monk's life is suited to a more rapid advancement and relief from distractions.

[fabianfred]

Keeping the five precepts ...as well as we can.... determined to do our best....is the foundation for higher practise. We could not hope to progress in meditation if we were not bothering to try and keep the precepts. This doesn't mean that unless we keep the precepts perfectly, without loss, that we are unable to progress. Even one who has attained stream-entry can still break the precepts ...but only in a minor way and not sufficient to be reborn in the lower realms.

[rockyysdt]

Keeping the five precepts ...as well as we can.... determined to do our best....is the foundation for higher practise. We could not hope to progress in meditation if we were not bothering to try and keep the precepts. This doesn't mean that unless we keep the precepts perfectly, without loss, that we are unable to progress. Even one who has attained stream-entry can still break the precepts ...but only in a minor way and not sufficient to be reborn in the lower realms.

I suspect that over time practicing regular sitting meditation will cause us to naturally begin to live according to the precepts rather than consciously forcing observance.

The difference between observing 5 & 8 precepts is a big step.

It means abstaining from all sexual activity rather than sexual misconduct, abstaining from eating at the wrong time (the right time is eating once, after sunrise, before noon, abstaining from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands, & abstaining from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping.

Edited October 31, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

That is why the thais say that keeping the 8 precepts for a single day and night earns more merit than donating to build a dozen temples.

[bankei]

There are 10 events which happened to the Buddha which could be described as suffering. Some, from memory

1. The Buddha suffered abdominal pains

2. Devadatta tried to assassinate the Buddha by pushing a boulder off a cliff. It missed, but the Buddha's foot was hit and bled.

3. The Buddha was slandered by a rival sect saying he had made a woman pregnant.

etc

All these are explained away in later works such as the Milandapanha and commentaries. In the Milandapanha the monk Nagasena is ask various sticly questions by King Milinda and he replies by saying not everything that happens is due to the effects of kamma. I can't remember the details but some things are said to arise to physical causes like a rock falling, some illness are due to physical causes too - presence of wind in food etc.

There is an interesting academic article about this by Jonathan Walters with a title something like "the Buddha's Bad Kamma".

[rockyysdt]

Since I am not an arahat, I cannot comment authoritatively. But my small understanding is that if you have kamma, you will be reborn.

Does that mean the man who perpetrated several murders & threatened the Buddha himself would have given rise to rebirth due to his murders even though with the Buddhas help he achieved enlightenment?

Doesn't re birth extinguish when one becomes enlightened.

How did this man become enlightened when he killed several (possibly the highest on the negative khamma list) in his last life?

What could someone do in their last life to absolve themselves of several murders?

Edited November 2, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Reaching Arahant you stop producing any more karma except the neutral kind. You can still suffer the fruit of old karma but when you leave rebirth in Samsara at parinibbana you have escaped the remaining karma...it is unable to bear fruit because you are no longer reborn in any of the 32 realms.

Only if you have committed the five most heinous types of karma are you blocked from attaining nirvana for a whole aeon.

Patricide

matricide

Killing an Arahant

Injuring a Buddha to cause blood to flow. (it is not possible to kill a Buddha)

Causing the Sangha to argue and split into factions.

Edited November 2, 2009 by fabianfred

[rockyysdt]

You can still suffer the fruit of old karma but when you leave rebirth in Samsara at parinibbana you have escaped the remaining karma...it is unable to bear fruit because you are no longer reborn in any of the 32 realms.

Only if you have committed the five most heinous types of karma are you blocked from attaining nirvana for a whole aeon.

Patricide

matricide

Killing an Arahant

Injuring a Buddha to cause blood to flow. (it is not possible to kill a Buddha)

Causing the Sangha to argue and split into factions.

Does enlightenment automatically lead to Nirvana upon death or can you be enlightened & then be blocked from Nirvana for an aeon?

Is homicide of non important people not heinous and/or low in terms of negative khamma and/or entitlements?

[rockyysdt]

it is not possible to kill a Buddha.

Is this once a Buddha has become enlightened, or is it also impossible to kill a Buddha during his non enlightened period of last life?

[fabianfred]

Does enlightenment automatically lead to Nirvana upon death or can you be enlightened & then be blocked from Nirvana for an aeon?

Is homicide of non important people not heinous and/or low in terms of negative khamma and/or entitlements?

Once enlightened.....reaching the state of arahant....you could not break any of the five precepts...therefore not commit any act which would cause rebirth in the lower realms.

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...

A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point

an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points

a good person... 1000 points

a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points

a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points

a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

some people like to say that all men are born equal...but of course this neglects past karma.

Buddha said there are four types of person.....

One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark.

As a Boddhisatva.... a buddha in training..he can be killed...although such an act would incur a strong penalty. Once he has decided to take final rebirth in the human realm in order to become the Buddha... he cannot be destroyed.

[rockyysdt]

Once enlightened.....reaching the state of arahant....you could not break any of the five precepts.

Can you become enlightened even with a large store of unexpended bad khamma?

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...

A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point

an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points

a good person... 1000 points

a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points

a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points

a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

some people like to say that all men are born equal...but of course this neglects past karma.

Buddha said there are four types of person.....

One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark.

What causes a person to "come from the light and go to the dark" if coming from the light means having been good & stored good khamma?

As a Boddhisatva.... a buddha in training..he can be killed...although such an act would incur a strong penalty. Once he has decided to take final rebirth in the human realm in order to become the Buddha... he cannot be destroyed.

Does a Boddhisatva, due to his awareness, easily transfer to the next step of Buddhahood?

[Brucenkhamen]

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...

A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point

an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points

a good person... 1000 points

a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points

a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points

a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

No, and it's missing the point in my opinion. Buddhism isn't a frequent flyer program.

The point on the teaching of kamma is not so we can waste our time speculating on who's got the most points and how, it's not so we can waste our time speculating how we got to experience what we are experiencing today and whether or not it's fair.

In my opinion the point is so that you can examine your choices before you act on them, realising that nothing happens in a vacuum and there will be consequences, through doing so you learn to act with more wisdom.

The word kamma means "action", we should focus at the action end of the process not at the result end of the of the process. You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[rockyysdt]

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...

A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point

an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points

a good person... 1000 points

a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points

a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points

a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

No, and it's missing the point in my opinion. Buddhism isn't a frequent flyer program.

The point on the teaching of kamma is not so we can waste our time speculating on who's got the most points and how, it's not so we can waste our time speculating how we got to experience what we are experiencing today and whether or not it's fair.

In my opinion the point is so that you can examine your choices before you act on them, realising that nothing happens in a vacuum and there will be consequences, through doing so you learn to act with more wisdom.

The word kamma means "action", we should focus at the action end of the process not at the result end of the of the process. You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Is it accepted as fact by the sangha and/or does it form part of the dhamma?

I'm glad the Buddha didn't teach this point system?

I find it frightening.

Not due to the consequences I might face but because some could use the assigned values to justify murder or killing.

I find killing or murdering any human heinous & value every life no matter what stage they find themselves.

Even the Buddha would have started at a low point at some stage.

I also thought that eventually (approaching infinity) we might all become enlightened therefore everyone of us is potentially a future Arahant.

Edited November 3, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

That's why I put this at the beginning...

"Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this..."

I wasn't trying declare any real points system...just show that when we create karma with another being....be it good or bad...the spiritual atate of that being does have some effect upon the amount of karma we accrue...

That is why the Thais like to flock to famous monks who are believed to be arahant...they make more merit with them than with an ordinary monk.

Coming from the light...means being born and experiencing the fruits of good past karma.... going to the dark would be one who takes no interest in spiritual development and creates karma leading to rebirth in poorer circumstances.

The store of unexpended karma does not prevent us from progressing to become an ariya in this life.

[rockyysdt]

That's why I put this at the beginning...

"Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this..."

I wasn't trying declare any real points system...just show that when we create karma with another being....be it good or bad...the spiritual atate of that being does have some effect upon the amount of karma we accrue...

That is why the Thais like to flock to famous monks who are believed to be arahant...they make more merit with them than with an ordinary monk.

Sorry, I missed the suppose.

But it does appearsto be a big suppose.

Rather than working like that, it could work on the impact of the negative deed & that everyone has equal value regardless of their current position.

Coming from the light...means being born and experiencing the fruits of good past karma.... going to the dark would be one who takes no interest in spiritual development and creates karma leading to rebirth in poorer circumstances.

What causes a person to move "from the light to the dark"?

[fabianfred]

What causes a person to move "from the light to the dark"?

ignorance of the truth....the dhamma.....not believing in karma and rebirth and not following the eightfold path

[rockyysdt]

What causes a person to move "from the light to the dark"?

ignorance of the truth....the dhamma.....not believing in karma and rebirth and not following the eightfold path

Thanks FF.

I was thinking what causes one to be ignorant & non believing.

For example:

I'm coming from the light (much merit & khamma depleting previous lives), now reborn (rebirth) but headed to dark.

Why?

Wouldn't previous lives have put me in good stead with both genetic & environmental influences which would facilitate knowledge of truth & path following attributes?

Edited November 4, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm coming from the light (much merit & khamma depleting previous lives), now reborn (rebirth) but headed to dark.

Why?

Wouldn't previous lives have put me in good stead with both genetic & environmental influences which would facilitate knowledge of truth & path following attributes?

Again you're missing the point. If you are heading into the dark it's because of past choices and actions, because of past wrong view, so what's to be done? You can't change the past but you can change the future.

When does one change the future? In the present moment, having gained an understanding of what's happening then one has the opportunity make better choices. This is why present moment awareness aka mindfulness is so important in Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

Again you're missing the point. If you are heading into the dark it's because of past choices and actions, because of past wrong view, so what's to be done? You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Fabianfred earlier indicated that the Buddha said there are four types of person.....

"One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark."

To "come from the light and go to the dark" would mean one had good choices & actions in the past.

What happened to go to the dark?

When does one change the future? In the present moment, having gained an understanding of what's happening then one has the opportunity make better choices. This is why present moment awareness aka mindfulness is so important in Buddhism.

I find people around me have fixed beliefs and take every chance to ridicule Buddhism. Such ridicule includes Buddhism as being mythology & superstition. They equate meditation as auto hypnosis & oxygen deprivation causing the brain to have experiences. They are fixed in view & even when given plausible argument to the merits of practice remain at odds.

What makes you, Fabianfred & myself open minded about the teachings of the dhamma compared to these people?

I'm trying to make sense of "comes from the light and goes to the dark".

Is it our legacy from past choices and actions which lead to positive genetic & environmental influences or is it chance?

Edited November 4, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Samuian]

I'm coming from the light (much merit & khamma depleting previous lives), now reborn (rebirth) but headed to dark.

Why?

Wouldn't previous lives have put me in good stead with both genetic & environmental influences which would facilitate knowledge of truth & path following attributes?

Again you're missing the point. If you are heading into the dark it's because of past choices and actions, because of past wrong view, so what's to be done? You can't change the past but you can change the future.

When does one change the future? In the present moment, having gained an understanding of what's happening then one has the opportunity make better choices. This is why present moment awareness aka mindfulness is so important in Buddhism.

There is a beautiful anecdote to "light & darkness"

"A woman is obviously searching something in her yard, as she combs through the weeds someone passes by

and asks the woman curiously: "what are you looking for?"

The woman replies "I lost my needle!"

The by-passer getting more curious and asks if she can remember where, as the yard was quite big!

The woman replied: "Inside the house!"

The by-passer replies in awe:" But Ma' then you have to look in the house where you lost it!"

The woman says: "Well you know my eyesight is not as good anymore, outside here it's nice and bright, so I can see better,

inside the house it's dark and I hardly can see anything!"

being "enlightened" means that there is suffering, but one is detached, so suffering, as it may still happen won't reach any attention and

so can't cause any distraction!

"Letting go" does mean that, as long as one manages to stay out, "of the game", unattached by the rat race's up's 'n down's,

it will be like "taking a bath in warm milk and honey", while the attached are more likely to face the "pot with boiling magma"..

every one has a choice....

Another anecdote I love is:

"A guru sits in front of a big pile of chillies and is eating, chewing each one very carefully,

while tears are running down his cheeks and he is gasping for air, panting,

coughing and stretching out his tongue to cool the fire down, but keeps grabbing another one,

and yet another one... his disciple comes along and watches him for a while..

After sometime he asks: "Gurudji, what are you doing, they are all very hot chillies, after all they might harm you?"

The Master answers: "I am looking for the sweet one!"

The irrationality is expressed in very simple terms and no one would do this, it is like going to watch the same bad

movie over and over again, in the hope that one day it might get better...

No one would be tempted to do this, but in real life situations, we tend to do exactly this!

Even analyzing "what is karma", it's much better to spend this idle talking time with Vipassana, breathing and meditation!

Way better then all this "well meaning idle talk of how do I make things better, how I split the knot"

If one dos not work on it with the utmost devotion, not much is going to happen, more likely one may get ever more entangled in the web of illusion of the grandeur of eternal, omniscient curtain Maya!

But with the "sword" of genuine knowledge, of vipassana, yoga and pranayama, following the eightfold path... no matter what club, what name, what label, studying the wisdom and following the guidelines of the enlightened ones..will bring results, none else!

It's the nature of luck to turn into mischief, love into hate, happiness into sadness, cause it's all born in duality!

and one always hold s the seed for the opposite, Nature of things!

Ying - yang - it's wholeness brings harmony and equilibrium, not this or that!

"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the greatest show on earth, showing live today, every day, ev'ry hour, every breath, every second -LIFE!

Edited November 4, 2009 by Samuian