The Significance Of Na (ณ) In Thai Surnames

[JetsetBkk]

My g/f's surname is "Na <city>", where <city> is the name of a city in northern Thailand.

Her grandfather was given this "Na" surname and so it has passed to her father and now to herself.

Does anyone have information about these "Na" surnames, e.g. what did the recipients do to get it (presumably something good), how many are/were given out per year, etc.

As her first name is quite short, there's a good chance that another person from this city has the exact same name.

[elcent]

guess it's Na Ayutthaya. Big family tree, quite a good chance to find more with the same name, not sure though.

[taffylee]

Along a similar lines my Mrs has a name which includes the name of the local Amphur. At one point I thought it must have been because her family were influential and perhaps founders of the town, unfortunately not.

They were displaced at some point in their lives and had to register at a new town hall, and as a result they were given the name reflecting their newly found home.

If anyone has some interesting info on this, Iwouldlove to read it.

[Maizefarmer]

"Na" ... "of" a surname which was/is the name of a city/town/area - very old: was usualy associated with folk who were related to old royal famlies of the city/town/area where they came from or lived.

So, it goes like this:

First name, then Na, or of, followed by the Surname - where the surname is the name of the city/town/area.

Pretty certain thats it.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[CarlBkk]

The strange thing is the town/city after the "Na" always seems to be limited to Ayuthaya, Songhkla, Nakorn, Chumpon and a few others.

I've yet to see any Na Buri Rams, Na Khon Kaens or Na Pattayas for some reason

[JetsetBkk]

guess it's Na Ayutthaya. Big family tree, quite a good chance to find more with the same name, not sure though.

No, not Ayutthaya/Ayudhya - it's about the same size but a long, long way further north. But no more guessing please as her college friends may read this site and I don't want to identify her. Or me.

Just interested in the "Na" thing.

[oevna]

The strange thing is the town/city after the "Na" always seems to be limited to Ayuthaya, Songhkla, Nakorn, Chumpon and a few others.

I've yet to see any Na Buri Rams, Na Khon Kaens or Na Pattayas for some reason

That may be because those provinces were not originally vassal states of Siam during the time that these surnames came about. This section of the Wikipedia article on Thai names gives a brief explanation.

[taffylee]

The strange thing is the town/city after the "Na" always seems to be limited to Ayuthaya, Songhkla, Nakorn, Chumpon and a few others.

I've yet to see any Na Buri Rams, Na Khon Kaens or Na Pattayas for some reason

That may be because those provinces were not originally vassal states of Siam during the time that these surnames came about. This section of the Wikipedia article on Thai names gives a brief explanation.

Thanks for the very intersting link

[JetsetBkk]

It looks like I'm going to have to talk to her parents/grandparents to get the full story. She told me one of her ancestors (great great great grandfather?) was governor of the city and did not have a surname. Then King Chulalongkorn (Rama V) gave him the "Na <city>" name, for some reason. Still trying to find out more.

[LooseCannon]

The strange thing is the town/city after the "Na" always seems to be limited to Ayuthaya, Songhkla, Nakorn, Chumpon and a few others.

I've yet to see any Na Buri Rams, Na Khon Kaens or Na Pattayas for some reason

Plenty of Noi's, Lek's & Dang's Na NaNa

[wamberal]

It looks like I'm going to have to talk to her parents/grandparents to get the full story. She told me one of her ancestors (great great great grandfather?) was governor of the city and did not have a surname. Then King Chulalongkorn (Rama V) gave him the "Na <city>" name, for some reason. Still trying to find out more.

My understanding is that surnames only began to be used a bit over 100 years ago, so it is not unusual that her ancestor did not have one. Nobody did, at one stage. Hope this helps.

[kensingto]

I think some European family use something similar. In history, Leonardo Da Vinci or Leonardo of Vinci. Da is Na in Thai.

Edited October 30, 2009 by kensingto

[JetsetBkk]

The strange thing is the town/city after the "Na" always seems to be limited to Ayuthaya, Songhkla, Nakorn, Chumpon and a few others.

I've yet to see any Na Buri Rams, Na Khon Kaens or Na Pattayas for some reason

Plenty of Noi's, Lek's & Dang's Na NaNa

Dämn! I was waiting for an opportunity to use a similar line, but you beat me to it!

[MiG16]

It looks like I'm going to have to talk to her parents/grandparents to get the full story. She told me one of her ancestors (great great great grandfather?) was governor of the city and did not have a surname. Then King Chulalongkorn (Rama V) gave him the "Na <city>" name, for some reason. Still trying to find out more.

prior to King Rama the sixth, Thais only used first names, and did not have last names. During the riegn of Rama IV, he made it a law that all Thai must have a family name. Relatives of royal family, as well as many civil servants and other nobility were given their last names by the King himself. My guess is for many of these the locality of where they or their family came from was either used as last names, or added to part of their official title. for eg. descendants of a 'Luang Thongsuk' who came from Songkhla province with Luang being a title, and Vorachet being the person's first name, might have adopted the last name of 'Mr. Krissada Thongsuk na Songkhla' with Krissada being his first name, and Vorachet na Songkhla being his last name.

just a guess though....... although the bit about Thais previously not having last name is a fact

by the way - most ethnic Thai names are short, usually 2 syllable (the 'na' excluded of course). what we see in current days of Thais with long last names are very likely third or fourth generation Thais who have emigrated and subsequently adopted Thai names.

[B Fuddled]

I was told once that it denoted a descendant of a royal concubine.

[jayjayjayjay]

My g/f's surname is "Na <city>", where <city> is the name of a city in northern Thailand.

Her grandfather was given this "Na" surname and so it has passed to her father and now to herself.

Does anyone have information about these "Na" surnames, e.g. what did the recipients do to get it (presumably something good), how many are/were given out per year, etc.

As her first name is quite short, there's a good chance that another person from this city has the exact same name.

You've got a princess, treat her like a queen.

[lazygourmet]

My g/f's surname is "Na <city>", where <city> is the name of a city in northern Thailand.

Her grandfather was given this "Na" surname and so it has passed to her father and now to herself.

Does anyone have information about these "Na" surnames, e.g. what did the recipients do to get it (presumably something good), how many are/were given out per year, etc.

As her first name is quite short, there's a good chance that another person from this city has the exact same name.

Na Klong Toey for sure... if you can not even answer to your own question

Time waister

[Johpa]

In the 19th century Thailand was not yet 100% united behind the Chakri dynasty. The country was still tied to a strong local patron-client social structure that was at odds with a unified central government. As a means to cajole the local lords (caos) to accept sovereignty from Bangkok without rebelling, the throne in Bangkok handed out to ruling families titled names akin to the feudal titles in Europe, a Thai version of a Duchy. Thus the ruling families in the larger muangs were given names such as Na Chiang Mai, Na Ayuttaya, etc. Since these families were landed aristocracy, they continue to be powerful families within the broader society. Although now enough time has passed that not all that bear the name are of such high status and some of the fruit has fallen far from the tree. But in general it notes that the great great grandparents were local rulers.

[Richard W]

Thus the ruling families in the larger muangs were given names such as Na Chiang Mai, Na Ayuttaya, etc.

Is listing 'Na Ayutthaya' a slip, or is that name also inherited by some outside the Rattanakosin dynasty?

[tw25rw]

I had a good Thai friend at school whose surname ended in Na Ayutthaya. He came from a well to do family and was brilliant academically and is now high up in the Bank of Thailand and occasionally writes on the economy in The Nation. I never realised he was related to nobility. It was him that first got me interested in Thailand in fact.

[Johpa]

Thus the ruling families in the larger muangs were given names such as Na Chiang Mai, Na Ayuttaya, etc.

Is listing 'Na Ayutthaya' a slip, or is that name also inherited by some outside the Rattanakosin dynasty?

Oops, A bit of a slip in the current context.

[Johpa]

Thus the ruling families in the larger muangs were given names such as Na Chiang Mai, Na Ayuttaya, etc.

Is listing 'Na Ayutthaya' a slip, or is that name also inherited by some outside the Rattanakosin dynasty?

Perhaps a bit of a slip, I am not sure if that name is still being used strictly for royal descendants or whether it was also bestowed upon non royal blood. The direct royal descendants will have the additional royal bloodline titles such as mom luang (M.L.) or mom ratchawaong (M.R.). Many of such titles folks with royal blood do not have a "Na" style family name, a well known example coming to mind being M.R. Kukrit Pramoj. But with Royalty taking only a single wife, such titles folks are becoming increasingly fewer and far between.

[nisakiman]

When I was in southern Thailand in 1971, I got to know a guy whose name was Na Songhkla. (First name was George! ) He told me his father had been the governer of Songhkla. He lived in Sadao, and was a well educated fellow, spoke perfect English, as did his wife who taught at university.

It became obvious he had some clout when I had visa overstay problems. He drove me to Had Yai to the immigration office, and amid much bowing and scraping we were ushered straight to the office of the main man. Ten minutes later I had a visa extension. No problem.

Lovely guy - I spent many a pleasant evening at his house smoking, drinking Mekong whisky and watching all his tanks of tropical fish. (His hobby - he had loads of them.)

[RubbaJohnny]

Nisa kiman nice tale I knew a drinking muslim judge in Peneng who could get thru the border after hours to haad Yai

These names exclude he great Flann O'Brien aka Myes na Gopaleen author of The 3rd Policeman and the impeccable Dalkey Archive all fine insights into human psyche

He was also the inspiration for the very irreverant blathernet

Myles Na Gopaleen

Flan O'Brien

Flann O'Brien was also known as the Count O'Blather, George Knowall, Peter the Painter , Brother Barnabus, John James Doe , Winnie Wedge, An Broc, and most famously as

Myles na gCopaleen. His Real Name was Brian O'Nuallain (Gaelic spelling)

Flann O'Brien was born Brian O'Nolan in County Tyrone, on 5 October 1911, and grew up in Dublin. He was a civil servant for eighteen years, but in the 1930s began writing a bi-lingual column for The Irish Times under the pseudonym Myles na Gopaleen (Myles of the Small Horses). He also wrote a column for The Nationalist and Leinster Times under the pseudonym George Knowall. His fiction includes At Swim-Two-Birds (London, Longman-Green, 1939/republished, London, MacGibbon & Kee, 1960); An Béal Bocht, Dublin, The Dolmen Press, 1941); The Dalkey Archive (MacGibbon & Kee, 1964); The Third Policeman (MacGibbon & Kee, 1967); The Hard Life ( by Patrick C.Power, London, Hart-Davis, MacGibbon, 1973). In addition many of his satirical and surrealist non-fiction columnns for The Irish Times have been published as The Best of Myles (available in Picador paperback). He also wrote a play, Faustus Kelly. He died in Dublin on April 1, 1966.

[Richard W]

I am not sure if that name [na Ayutthaya - RW] is still being used strictly for royal descendants or whether it was also bestowed upon non royal blood. The direct royal descendants will have the additional royal bloodline titles such as mom luang (M.L.) or mom ratchawaong (M.R.). Many of such titles folks with royal blood do not have a "Na" style family name, a well known example coming to mind being M.R. Kukrit Pramoj.

My understanding was that 'na Ayutthaya' is adopted once the royal titles are exhausted, so the children of a male mom luang would only be distinguished by the addition to the surname.

[JetsetBkk]

My g/f's surname is "Na <city>", where <city> is the name of a city in northern Thailand.

Her grandfather was given this "Na" surname and so it has passed to her father and now to herself.

Does anyone have information about these "Na" surnames, e.g. what did the recipients do to get it (presumably something good), how many are/were given out per year, etc.

As her first name is quite short, there's a good chance that another person from this city has the exact same name.

Na Klong Toey for sure... if you can not even answer to your own question

Time waister

I understand all the posts in this thread (and thanks for the info.) except this one.

Had a bad day?

[zaza]

Na Ra Chima??

Na Ri Thiwat?

Na Ga Zaki?

[Thai at Heart]

It is a lapsed royal title.

Not all titles in Thailand last forever and some have a generational time limit. "Na" is formal way of acknowledging that sometime in the distant past (5 generations) at least, someone in the direct line above you received a significant royal title.

[dave_boo]

So where does Narongmee come from?

A google search doesn't turn up much of anything about rongmee...

[Bangyai]

I sometimes like to introduce myself as Mr .... ......... na London to Thais when they are putting on airs and graces they don't have. Normally gets a laugh from either them or their friends.