Thai-cambodian Relations

[Insight]

Cambodia -1

Thailand -0

I don't think you know the economic score, lol. And certainly not the political score. Must be the Thaksin population index.

No Rinrada is right.I don't think he's implying that in this case Cambodia, Hun Sen (a nasty piece of work) or Thaksin have demonstrated any great wisdom.Clearly this was a rather foolish and provocative appointment.I think he's making the point that a much more sophisticated leader of a much larger and richer country has reacted like a petulant child.In terms of political face therefore the score is as Rinrada suggests - but nobody believes Thailand is other than Premier League and Cambodia other than struggling amateurs.

You read all that from the words "Cambodia 1 Thailand 0" !?!

How did we miss it...?

[Asa]

Jayboy 0

Rinrada and Insight 1

[Ricardo]

Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said in a phone-in interview Friday that Thailand decided to revoke Thai-Cambodia memorandum of understanding on the overlapping continental shelf area signed in June 2001 under premiership of then PM Thaksin.

Then Foreign Minister Surakiart Sathirathai signed the MOU with his Cambodian counterpart Hor Nam Hong.

In the MOU, both countries agree to jointly survey and develop in the overlapping zones in the Gulf of Thailand.

-- The Nation 2009/11/06

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

An outstanding start for the development of Cambodia, following Hun Sen's recent appointment of Thaksin, as an economic-adviser.

One wonders how this news might affect the commercial-prospects, for the exploration/development of offshore oil/gas-concessions in the disputed area, and the reaction of any expatriate Thais who might possibly have invested in the industry, following the original signing of the MOU ?

[rixalex]

I think he's making the point that a much more sophisticated leader of a much larger and richer country has reacted like a petulant child.

For a certain group of people, whatever move Abhisit makes they will pour scorn on. If he does nothing they call him a powerless puppet with no authority, and if he does act they call him a petulant child throwing a tantrum.

[hammered]

In terms of short term politcs this has gone badly for Thaksin. Abhisit has played it brilliantly in short term political terms although in terms of longer term relations withj a neighbour it may be more fraught. Right now though the internal poltical game is the big one. The reds have a big bring down the government rally coming up. It just suddenly got a lot harder for them.

The ripping up of the MoU is one that has more play in it. This was a bone thrown to Cambodia many years ago by Thaksin. It was never really Thailand's negotaiting thrust. If played well by the government this could haunt Thaksin a little too althouhg usually the government arent to good at playing these things.

[webfact]

Thai-Cambodian border's situation worrying: Thai senior official

BANGKOK, Nov. 6 (Xinhua) -- Vasin Teeravechyan, advisor to the Thai Foreign Ministry and co-chairman of the Thai-Cambodian Joint Boundary Commission (JBC) Friday expressed his worries about the Thai-Cambodian border's situation.

His view was made after the Cambodian government on Thursday evening announced recall of its ambassador to Thailand in a move to respond to the Thai government's earlier recall of its Ambassador Prasas Prasavinitchai to Cambodia.

The diplomatic retaliation occurred after ousted former Thai Premier Thaksin Shinawatra was officially appointed as adviser of Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen and the Royal Government of Cambodia King Norodom Sihamoni.

As the tension between the two neighboring countries is going on, Vasin is concerned about the possible clash at the Thai-Cambodian borer to happen, Thai News Agency reported.

The event might also add difficulties to the mutual cooperation on the Thai-Cambodian Joint Boundary Commission (JBC) as actually it is already difficult to solve the border dispute, he said.

However, by this time the diplomatic retaliation has not yet directly affected the Thai-Cambodian Joint Boundary Commission's working, he said.

"If Cambodia cancels the appointment of Thaksin, it will be understandable and no need to say any thing, Thailand will send the ambassador back to Cambodia," Vasin said.

The two neighbors have also been engaged in a conflict about a 4.6-square kilometers border area claimed by both sides adjacent to the ancient Preah Vihear temple.

Both countries have historically laid claim to the temple, which now sits on Cambodian soil following the action of the International Court of Justice which awarded the ancient temple to Cambodia in 1962.

However, the temple can practicably only be accessed from Thailand.

Source: agencies

[gardener2]

Abhisit's popularity soars three times for downgrading ties with Cambodia

The popularity rating of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has tripled after his decisive action to downgrade the diplomatic ties with Cambodia, Abac Poll said in a survey released on Friday.

[samran]

bugger.

There goes my road trip from BKK to PP over the Christmas break.

Lao, here I come, I guess....

[steveromagnino]

bugger.

There goes my road trip from BKK to PP over the Christmas break.

Lao, here I come, I guess....

Just go to Surin; it is a bit like Cambodia without the land mines. Lots of Khymer spoken - you can be bong brahng sa-aht, and it's not far from the border. Roads are a bit better than Cambodia, but maybe you can drive with busted shocks, that will give you a nice taste.

I can arrange someone to take your money as well when you go to the market, and to tell you how cr*p you are as well then remind you how Gop Suwanan said Nakhon Wat belongs to Thailand, that way you can pretend that you met Hun Sen.

And the kicker? I'll print out all those threads from 5-6 years ago who boasted how great living in Cambodia would be as the TRT govt did their social order campaign; that way you can really live the dream.

Gee I am good pal to the TV community. Virtual Khymer I will call it.

[jayboy]

I think he's making the point that a much more sophisticated leader of a much larger and richer country has reacted like a petulant child.

For a certain group of people, whatever move Abhisit makes they will pour scorn on. If he does nothing they call him a powerless puppet with no authority, and if he does act they call him a petulant child throwing a tantrum.

You miss the point.Actually as my posts indicate I am generally a supporter of Abhisit.In this instance he has over reacted, but I accept that he might have quite coolly calculated a little tantrum would be politically helpful (cut the ground away from those pesky yellows etc).On the subject of Thaksin many in the Thai elite take leave of their senses, and evidently there is a real fear of his power and popularity, unnecessarily so in my opinion.The clever reaction would to have virtually ignored this development, or dismissed it with a disapproving shrug.Now the Singaporeans and others are telling the Thais and the Cambodians to calm down and make up, and thus Abhisit has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level:he could have scored points but he's ended up losing them.

[bkkjames]

bugger.

There goes my road trip from BKK to PP over the Christmas break.

Lao, here I come, I guess....

Just go to Surin; it is a bit like Cambodia without the land mines. Lots of Khymer spoken - you can be bong brahng sa-aht, and it's not far from the border. Roads are a bit better than Cambodia, but maybe you can drive with busted shocks, that will give you a nice taste.

I can arrange someone to take your money as well when you go to the market, and to tell you how cr*p you are as well then remind you how Gop Suwanan said Nakhon Wat belongs to Thailand, that way you can pretend that you met Hun Sen.

And the kicker? I'll print out all those threads from 5-6 years ago who boasted how great living in Cambodia would be as the TRT govt did their social order campaign; that way you can really live the dream.

Gee I am good pal to the TV community. Virtual Khymer I will call it.

Great stuff Steve, I thought I was most sarcastic sob on here, not anymore apparently.

[samran]

bugger.

There goes my road trip from BKK to PP over the Christmas break.

Lao, here I come, I guess....

Just go to Surin; it is a bit like Cambodia without the land mines. Lots of Khymer spoken - you can be bong brahng sa-aht, and it's not far from the border. Roads are a bit better than Cambodia, but maybe you can drive with busted shocks, that will give you a nice taste.

I can arrange someone to take your money as well when you go to the market, and to tell you how cr*p you are as well then remind you how Gop Suwanan said Nakhon Wat belongs to Thailand, that way you can pretend that you met Hun Sen.

And the kicker? I'll print out all those threads from 5-6 years ago who boasted how great living in Cambodia would be as the TRT govt did their social order campaign; that way you can really live the dream.

Gee I am good pal to the TV community. Virtual Khymer I will call it.

Mate, can you make sure you repo my car while I'm there too. Nothing like hitching back to BKK with a blond wife, a 3 yo and a 11 month old to really get into the spirit of things.

As for those threads...still being written. Apparently Cambo is doing everything right to attract foreginers. Need only slip some dosh under the table and they let you live there forever. dam_n those pesky immigration rules, or riels....

[jayboy]

I think he's making the point that a much more sophisticated leader of a much larger and richer country has reacted like a petulant child.

For a certain group of people, whatever move Abhisit makes they will pour scorn on. If he does nothing they call him a powerless puppet with no authority, and if he does act they call him a petulant child throwing a tantrum.

But the two behaviours you posit are actually consistent and reinforcing.Think about it.

[samran]

I think he's making the point that a much more sophisticated leader of a much larger and richer country has reacted like a petulant child.

For a certain group of people, whatever move Abhisit makes they will pour scorn on. If he does nothing they call him a powerless puppet with no authority, and if he does act they call him a petulant child throwing a tantrum.

You miss the point.Actually as my posts indicate I am generally a supporter of Abhisit.In this instance he has over reacted, but I accept that he might have quite coolly calculated a little tantrum would be politically helpful (cut the ground away from those pesky yellows etc).On the subject of Thaksin many in the Thai elite take leave of their senses, and evidently there is a real fear of his power and popularity, unnecessarily so in my opinion.The clever reaction would to have virtually ignored this development, or dismissed it with a disapproving shrug.Now the Singaporeans and others are telling the Thais and the Cambodians to calm down and make up, and thus Abhisit has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level:he could have scored points but he's ended up losing them.

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Siding with Cambodia, foreign ownership of what are seen as national assets....all the third rail of Thai politics.

Mark seems to be playing his hand quite well me thinks. Thaksin's hubris (or is it lack of friends?) doing him in. He's had to make some sort of noise about it...get the people remembering some of Dear Leaders weak spots.

[jayboy]

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Siding with Cambodia, foreign ownership of what are seen as national assets....all the third rail of Thai politics.

Mark seems to be playing his hand quite well me thinks. Thaksin's hubris (or is it lack of friends?) doing him in. He's had to make some sort of noise about it...get the people remembering some of Dear Leaders weak spots.

Reasonable position though I don't fully share it.My main concern is that Thailand has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level.I had expected a more nuanced response from Abhisit but haven't yet seen it.

[bkkjames]

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Siding with Cambodia, foreign ownership of what are seen as national assets....all the third rail of Thai politics.

Mark seems to be playing his hand quite well me thinks. Thaksin's hubris (or is it lack of friends?) doing him in. He's had to make some sort of noise about it...get the people remembering some of Dear Leaders weak spots.

Reasonable position though I don't fully share it.My main concern is that Thailand has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level.I had expected a more nuanced response from Abhisit but haven't yet seen it.

Pulled down, in who's eyes? Apparently the Thai population doesn't see it your way according to those polls.

[samran]

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Siding with Cambodia, foreign ownership of what are seen as national assets....all the third rail of Thai politics.

Mark seems to be playing his hand quite well me thinks. Thaksin's hubris (or is it lack of friends?) doing him in. He's had to make some sort of noise about it...get the people remembering some of Dear Leaders weak spots.

Reasonable position though I don't fully share it.My main concern is that Thailand has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level.I had expected a more nuanced response from Abhisit but haven't yet seen it.

Pulled down, in who's eyes? Apparently the Thai population doesn't see it your way according to those polls.

Probably what is happening doesn't go down to well in diplo-land where the word 'disappointment' is strong stuff.

I'm personally of the Paul Keating (peace be upon him) school of politics, so I'm all for a bit more of a head kicking approach by Mark and maybe K.Kasit. I need my politics entertaining!

[rixalex]

The clever reaction would to have virtually ignored this development, or dismissed it with a disapproving shrug.

Don't agree. Hun Sen is sticking his middle finger up at Thai authorities, not only by employing Thaksin, but by declaring that they will ignore any request for extradition. To simply shrug at this act and continue affairs without any negative reaction would have been seen as being extremely weak, if not by the rest of the international community, certainly by Thai people, for whom Abhisit is serving.

[dukkha]

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Siding with Cambodia, foreign ownership of what are seen as national assets....all the third rail of Thai politics.

Mark seems to be playing his hand quite well me thinks. Thaksin's hubris (or is it lack of friends?) doing him in. He's had to make some sort of noise about it...get the people remembering some of Dear Leaders weak spots.

Reasonable position though I don't fully share it.My main concern is that Thailand has been pulled down to Hun Sen's level.I had expected a more nuanced response from Abhisit but haven't yet seen it.

Pulled down, in who's eyes? Apparently the Thai population doesn't see it your way according to those polls.

Probably what is happening doesn't go down to well in diplo-land where the word 'disappointment' is strong stuff.

I'm personally of the Paul Keating (peace be upon him) school of politics, so I'm all for a bit more of a head kicking approach by Mark and maybe K.Kasit. I need my politics entertaining!

Saint Paul is my hero.....but few liked his intelligence, preferred the beige of John Coward...

[Asa]

In the area of protecting the right over Pra Viharn area, and zoning in the Gulf of Siam, Thai gov. (Armed Forces included) is too soft, and too shy. Over appointment of TS advisory post, it over reacts. Thailand need not create an enmity out of Cambodia or other neighbours. Abhisit has many times shown his desire to be tough, all at the wrong times. Where he should be more open and direct, he dodges and goes around. Where he should be more diplomatic, he is childishly rude and stiff. If he cannot take he leader roles right, how we can trust him to lead. What is Thailand gain in going blatantly against Cambodia? A popular PM?

[elcent]

revoking the MoU?

This will be a multi trillion $$$ gift to Cambodia.

Thailand may lose any rights in that area. You can't revoke an international binding agreement because of overemotional mood swings as if in meno pause. Only alterations can be made when mutually agreed.

Otherwise, only "acts of God"(disaster) can nullify such a memo.

Edited November 6, 2009 by elcent

[jayboy]

what do you mean? He's up in opinion polls...No points lost as far as I can see.

Oh dear, is this you you measure things - ABAC polls asking a few urban Sino-Thai housewives how they feel?

[ballpoint]

In the area of protecting the right over Pra Viharn area, and zoning in the Gulf of Siam, Thai gov. (Armed Forces included) is too soft, and too shy. Over appointment of TS advisory post, it over reacts. Thailand need not create an enmity out of Cambodia or other neighbours. Abhisit has many times shown his desire to be tough, all at the wrong times. Where he should be more open and direct, he dodges and goes around. Where he should be more diplomatic, he is childishly rude and stiff. If he cannot take he leader roles right, how we can trust him to lead. What is Thailand gain in going blatantly against Cambodia? A popular PM?

Hun Sen ramped up his little game a month or so ago when he said any Thai setting foot on the disputed land, not just the temple itself, would be shot. He then started making noises about Thaksin being unfairly treated by the Thai courts, and would give him a house to live in, ignoring any requests for extradition. He then had his mealy mouthed ambassador write a disgraceful letter to the Nation, maybe that's your idea of diplomatic language? And now he appoints a wanted criminal as government advisor. Who knows what his antics are designed to do, other than to thumb his nose at the Thai government? Maybe they're hoping to tie up the Thai army on the border while Thaksin has a go at taking Bangkok? Name me one country that would sit back and try to diplomatically reason with someone as obviously cracked as he is? They should have grabbed the jumped up little Pol Potter when they had him in Cha-am and bloodied his nose for him. (I'm not a diplomat, so I'm allowed to say this).

[fullcave]

In the area of protecting the right over Pra Viharn area, and zoning in the Gulf of Siam, Thai gov. (Armed Forces included) is too soft, and too shy. Over appointment of TS advisory post, it over reacts. Thailand need not create an enmity out of Cambodia or other neighbours. Abhisit has many times shown his desire to be tough, all at the wrong times. Where he should be more open and direct, he dodges and goes around. Where he should be more diplomatic, he is childishly rude and stiff. If he cannot take he leader roles right, how we can trust him to lead. What is Thailand gain in going blatantly against Cambodia? A popular PM?

It was not long ago I was reading about military causalities on the boarder and then there were the threats made by Hun Sen about shooting down Thais.

Edited November 6, 2009 by fullcave

[Yoshitaka]

Thailand need the petroleum resources in the overlapping area more than Cambodia.

Mark DARE NOT speak to Hun Sen again in Japan. Just like Hua Hin.

[MaiChai]

I think Taksin has made a big mistake becoming an advisor in Cambodia. Thais are very patriotic and he has in effect aligned himself with a foreign country who Thailand has highly emotional disputes over. This is very unpatriotic and un-Thai. I think most Thais would regard this as abandoning Thailand in preference to Cambodia. I think it also shows him for what he is, which is a highly manipulative person who will do anything to achieve his goal. His time has passed in Thailand and he does not realise that it has passed, and will never be able to reach the height of his glory days again.

Edited November 6, 2009 by MaiChai

[Ricardo]

You can't revoke an international binding agreement because of overemotional mood swings as if in meno pause. Only alterations can be made when mutually agreed.

Wouldn't that apply equally to Hun Sen refusing to honour an extradition-treaty ?

[elcent]

You can't revoke an international binding agreement because of overemotional mood swings as if in meno pause. Only alterations can be made when mutually agreed.

Wouldn't that apply equally to Hun Sen refusing to honour an extradition-treaty ?

Thaksin would have been long before extradited if the situation would have warranted it. Like from England, Germany, Malaysia, UAE and others. Most refused to accept him in their country to avoid political meddling with Thailand but that is not an equivalent reason for an extradition and/or agreement by international standards.

[Publicus]

Thailand need the petroleum resources in the overlapping area more than Cambodia.

Mark DARE NOT speak to Hun Sen again in Japan. Just like Hua Hin.

Very much yes, it's not for Mark to sit with Hun Sen (or vice versa) without high level officials of the foreign ministries first sitting down to lay the ground rules of any such meeting, to assure comminication is clear and that a harmoneous result is realized for all to see.

Sitting down willy nilly, especially with a loose cannon such as Hun Sen, is definitely unwise and Thai foreign ministry officials know this. Both Mark and Hun Sen also would expect Asean to be helpful too, which would require more time to talk and get the ducks in a row for each party.

The onus to seeking any resolution of this mess rests squarely (pun intended) with Hun Sen. Abhisit is the guy to satisfy because Hun Sen is the aggressor, so Abhisit properly will wait until Hun Sen comes to his senses (what did I write??? Hun Sen come to his senses?!?!).

[Rumfoord]

Jayboy 0

Rinrada and Insight 1

- fail

- win