Is Making Merit A Selfish Act?

[simon43]

Forgive me if I 'step on some toes' wit this question. I am not a Buddhist, but have studied Thai Buddism at MA level at Chula University a few years ago. That's not to say that I understand it

One aspect of Thai Buddism that I cannot 'accept' is the act of making merit, because for me, merit making is an act of selfishness. (Perhaps this is a naive and incorrect understanding, so please bear with me)

AFAIU, making merit is done to accumulate good merit upon oneself, so that one can reap the rewards of this good merit in the next life. How does one make merit? In many cases, one makes merit by giving money to the local temple. How selfish is that?! It reminds me of the folks at DMC (the spaceship near Don Muang), where you can gain higher merit by giving more money...)

Surely it is better to do good acts that directly benefit others, (such as cleaning, painting, teaching etc), and do this to accumulate merit upon others, not upon yourself? Previously when I made donations to 'worthy' causes, it was always made directly to the school or prison hopsital or whatever, and never made to the wat because I couldn't see any benefit that would be gained by those in need if I gave money to the temple. That would give me a 'big face' in the eyes of others, but someone else having a big face does not put food on the plates of those without food. By giving directly to those in need, and by not publicising your charitable acts, you can accumulate merit on those that you donate to.

Imagine if the hisos could only accumulate merit if the losos bestowed merit upon them! DMC would be out of business

Simon

[camerata]

One aspect of Thai Buddism that I cannot 'accept' is the act of making merit, because for me, merit making is an act of selfishness. (Perhaps this is a naive and incorrect understanding, so please bear with me)

AFAIU, making merit is done to accumulate good merit upon oneself, so that one can reap the rewards of this good merit in the next life. How does one make merit? In many cases, one makes merit by giving money to the local temple. How selfish is that?!

It all depends on your intent. See the Dana Sutta.

The rewards you get from supporting the Sangha are laid out in detail in the Pali Canon (at the top you have building a monastery and giving to an arahant) so many Buddhists tend to feel safe and comfortable with this. And it's easy. In reality, though, dana is the lowest form of kamma (leading to benefits in the next life), sila is the next, and meditation is the highest.

[simon43]

Camerata, thank you for that explanation. It mayb be that my personal view of how to 'make merit' differs from what Buddhists are taught. If that means that I am not or cannot be a Buddhist, then I'm happy with that

Simon

[honu]

Interesting question, seems an obvious concern, doesn't it? Thai males ordain temporarily as monks to gain merit (traditionally for three months during the rainy season, but now it's more standard to stay for two weeks), but that merit is often said to go to their families or even to their deceased relatives. But that doesn't change things much since that's still one short step away from selfishness. I ordained to learn about the religion and tradition, but it was important for my wife for the other reason, especially since her father has passed away. That raises another question, doesn't it, how could he benefit since he should have been re-born anyway? There isn't a simple answer to that and Thais don't hold themselves to consistency (but I'm sure others could fill in gaps about delays in that process or lay-overs in astral realms).

Who you give alms to (or temple donations) affects how much merit you get so you don't get a great return if you just hand over offerings to the local temple or monk compared to seeking out a higher-ranked monk or more prestigious, more karmically powerful temple. Not that most Thais do that, all monks are on roughly the same level and people tend to support their local temples, as they should, especially since the system is set up so that you give the monk that happens to be walking by the offering (back to taking karma-or kamma-as fate). But I stayed in the abbot's kuti when I ordained and I noticed that people were eager to give "higher" monks more, and learned how to do so within the confines of the system. Most monks act accordingly to their station (the high-profile exceptions are just that; anomolies) and the excess food offerings were distributed as they should be, given to others that needed it.

So how to square the original question? It's up to individual practicioners to sort through their own attitudes and interpretations of the original teachings and the religious practices. It's clear enough what the intention is and the practice of authentic selflessness is laid out. Temples that sell merit are no different than Christian churches that sell salvation--ingeniune.

[cognos]

Buddha apparantly (made merit) by prophesizing the coming of Jesus some 500 years before..its in the Buddhist "Bible"..if I could learn how to attach on this site I would show you..as i have the reference

[ozzieovaseas]

Some time ago i briefly flicked through a book called the "The Mustard Seed" (Osho) and saw a few pages that addressed this subject in a very unique and unusual way.

I couldnt trust my memory enough to recall the specifics now, but the way i interpreted the authors words was that certain forms of charity can be born from selfishness and ego based, therefor being a big obstacle to spiritual enlightenment.

A website states the book is apparently made up of quotes from Jesus, Buddha and old Zen masters

I would'nt regard myself as religious in any way shape or form but i do like an interesting read..Wish i'd bought it now as i havent seen a copy since

[camerata]

Camerata, thank you for that explanation. It mayb be that my personal view of how to 'make merit' differs from what Buddhists are taught. If that means that I am not or cannot be a Buddhist, then I'm happy with that

I don't see why you can't be a Buddhist just because you don't make merit the same way other people do. There are many different ways to do it. You can make merit by giving to charities and so on if you want.

[ArthurPewty]

I understand that people can make merit for dead relatives. Don't quote me on that as I have little more than a passing knowledge of superstitions, but I know people that make merit on behalf of others. I have never poked my nose in as it may be sensitive as they are doing for dead loved ones.

[Brucenkhamen]

Merit making acts are usually not selfish acts by definition. However in Thailand a lot of people seem to approach merit making in a selfish way, what's in it for me, how many points do I need to get to get into Business class in the next life. I doubt that merit making with this attitude has any impact on ones kamma.

The Buddhist scriptures explain how it works but this is not the purpose of Buddhism. The purpose of Buddhism is not to be the one that accumulates the most airpoints and dies with the most merit (rather than the most toys) the purpose is release from greed, aversion, and suffering.

Using Buddhism to make merit rather than follow in the footsteps of the Buddha seems to me a bit like going to school just to eat your lunch, sure you can do it but you'll have missed out on all the learning that takes place there.

I'm not sure the concept of merit is stressed in other cultures as much as it is in Thailand.

[rockyysdt]

While we are still associated with our egos (pre enlightenment) there'll always be an element of selfishness.

You can minimise this by:

1. If you have the capacity give what you can to others less fortunate than yourself - your generosity can have a powerful affect on the receiver.

2. Give directly to those genuinely in need - money, food, help, a caring ear, whatever you can give.

3. When giving always analyse your intent.

4. Don't brag or broadcast your charity as padding the ego can overtake a postive intent.

Edited November 10, 2009 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

Very interesting OP and thread.

I guess I see it as sort of a moot point. If you attempt to earn merit for the wrong reason, you will not earn it. In fact, is there "demerit"?

I think it all goes back to intent.

If you do good things to earn merit, I doubt you earn it. If you lead a good life, including doing things that most would consider as earning merit (e.g., generosity), but just do those things because they are "the right thing to do", then you probably earn merit.

[camerata]

4. Don't brag or broadcast your charity as padding the ego can overtake a postive intent.

Or as Ajahn Jayasaro said last night, stick the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue where no one will see it, not on the front.

[fabianfred]

I think that for those whose belief and understanding of the dhamma is not yet very deep....the carrot and stick of trying to avoid being reborn in the lower realms and trying to gain a better rebirth tends to make one want to accumulate merit in your personal merit bank. Later as ones understanding grows, one stops doing good just to make merit, but simply for the love of good.

Because the buddha taught that 'the gift of dhamma is the greatest gift'.....supporting the sangha will help the spread of the dhamma. If you give someone money or food to cure their immediate suffering that is only helping them short term, but if you help them understand the dhamma and reach nirvana they will escape ALL suffering. Like the old saying that it is better to teach a man to fish than give him a fish. Understanding the dhamma helps us understand our present suffering and this reduces its effect, whilst at the same time changes our practises in life which will lead to our release from rebirth in the future.

As the thais say...keeping the eight precepts for a single day and night earns more merit that donating to build a dozen temples.

Thais like to transfer merit to their deceased relatives....pouring water into a cup whilst the monks chant a blessing. Not knowing where their relatives have taken rebirth, if they have gone to the lower realms then the merit shared may help to reduce their suffering (if reborn in the hungry-ghost realm) or even cut short their time there....once again the merit gained from Vipassana meditation is the strongest and can even help those in the hel_l realms.

[phetaroi]

Or as Ajahn Jayasaro said last night, stick the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue where no one will see it, not on the front.

The placement of gold leaf, although not exactly in this context, is something I have considered from time to time, so I'm glad you brought it into the conversation. The only problem with the example given in what Ajahn Jayasaro said is that who knows who places gold leaf on a Buddha statue? So why does that matter? For me, my ponderings have been more about why placement at particular spots. For example, to demonstrate my humility, I typically place the the gold leaf on the feet, unless there is some specific reason I am placing it elsewhere.

[camerata]

Or as Ajahn Jayasaro said last night, stick the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue where no one will see it, not on the front.

The placement of gold leaf, although not exactly in this context, is something I have considered from time to time, so I'm glad you brought it into the conversation. The only problem with the example given in what Ajahn Jayasaro said is that who knows who places gold leaf on a Buddha statue? So why does that matter? For me, my ponderings have been more about why placement at particular spots. For example, to demonstrate my humility, I typically place the the gold leaf on the feet, unless there is some specific reason I am placing it elsewhere.

He may have said that this was a Thai expression - I don't recall. But the point of it is that other people will see you if you stick it on the front (ego trip, social acceptance, etc) whereas no one sees you doing it if you are at the back of the statue. Perhaps a better example would be that if you donate to the renovation of a temple, you should decline the offer of having your name on a plaque on the wall.

Personally, I've never placed gold leaf on a Buddha statue. It seems to be more a mark of respect than anything else. I don't see how it helps to spread the Dhamma, for example (unless someone scrapes it off, sells it and uses the money to help the Sangha).

Since we're talking about making merit, on my recent trip to Chiang Mai I came across a woman at a temple who wanted me to pay to release the terrified little birds she had in tiny cages. She had an English sign about releasing the birds for "good luck." Since she was blocking my photo of the viharn (deliberately?) I hung around waiting for her to leave and contemplated giving her a lecture on Dhamma, and it actually crossed my mind to release all the birds. But that would just perpetuate the practice. In the end I just took some photos of her looking miserable. I'm quite sure that perpetuating the capture and suffering of birds does not gain one any merit.

[phetaroi]

Personally, I've never placed gold leaf on a Buddha statue. It seems to be more a mark of respect than anything else. I don't see how it helps to spread the Dhamma, for example (unless someone scrapes it off, sells it and uses the money to help the Sangha).

Since we're talking about making merit, on my recent trip to Chiang Mai I came across a woman at a temple who wanted me to pay to release the terrified little birds she had in tiny cages. She had an English sign about releasing the birds for "good luck." Since she was blocking my photo of the viharn (deliberately?) I hung around waiting for her to leave and contemplated giving her a lecture on Dhamma, and it actually crossed my mind to release all the birds. But that would just perpetuate the practice. In the end I just took some photos of her looking miserable. I'm quite sure that perpetuating the capture and suffering of birds does not gain one any merit.

I suppose like a number of other things that placing gold leaf on a Buddha statue can be a way of focusing, although I kind of imagine its mostly done for the wrong (though not necessarily bad) reason.

The whole bird thing does bother me. I do see it as cruel, and as I understand the birds usually fly back to their little cage. I doubt that you can earn merit by releasing them, but I would think the vendor would earn negative karma. Glad you took some photos of her, hopefully making her uncomfortable. Oops, I think I just earned some negative karma thinking that!

[simon43]

Or as Ajahn Jayasaro said last night, stick the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue where no one will see it, not on the front.

Yes! agree with this statement completely

Reminds me of an event about 6 years ago when I offered to pay for some building work on the new temple in my (now ex) Issan wife's village. I emphasised that this was just a private donation and I didn't want any 'fuss' made over it. I handed over the cash and thought that was the end of the matter.

The next day, I was woken at a ridiculous hour by the whole village who were parading in front of my lodgings with the 'money-tree' and my private offering that had been exchanged into new 20 baht notes. I had to carry this tree in the procession to present it to the wat, smiling at everyone from my outside on the way, but not at all happy on my inside with the fuss!!

To make matters even worse (for me that is), the community insisted on carving the name of myself and my ex in large letters on the new wooden entrance doors to the temple

So much for my private offering. But I suppose that I had good intent with my offer and the ensuing procession and party was not part of my intent

Simon

[camerata]

So much for my private offering. But I suppose that I had good intent with my offer and the ensuing procession and party was not part of my intent

Exactly. That's the important thing.

[Yamantaka]

"Buying" good karma is not possible by donating to the Sangha if that is the intention. It is about the motivation for the action, the object of the action, the action itself and the result of the action. This is similar to the idea of charity being given to satisfy the ego of the giver. If one gives money that is excess and does not cause any deprivation, it may be more an act of self-gratification than of generosity since it providers the giver with pleasure and the negative thought of being a "good person". Donating a million dollars when one has 100 million is not nearly as generous as donating two dollars when one only has four. In either case, the ultimate act of compassion and charity is to donate to those for whom one feels no connection and no affinity. Helping someone we dislike (although we shouldn't dislike anyone), gains far more merit.

[bankei]

I feel uneasy about the whole tambun BS. As it is practiced in Thailand it has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught and has been promoted by the monks to encourage more giving to themselves.

These days I refuse to give to monks or temples at all. There are better ways to 'make merit' by actually helping people who need helping.

Bankei

[Brucenkhamen]

I feel uneasy about the whole tambun BS. As it is practiced in Thailand it has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught and has been promoted by the monks to encourage more giving to themselves.

These days I refuse to give to monks or temples at all. There are better ways to 'make merit' by actually helping people who need helping.

I'm not sure it's promoted by the good monks. I've often had the impression good monks, especially farang monks, are quite embarrassed by it all.

Wheras I've often heard reported of Thai lay people saying it's easier to spend a lot of money in the hope of buying merit than it is to meditate.

[Ananke]

Or as Ajahn Jayasaro said last night, stick the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue where no one will see it, not on the front.

He may have said that this was a Thai expression - I don't recall.

Yes, it is a common Thai expression.

[moe666]

my teacher Aurobindo summed it up in one of his books. If a poor man gives what he can aford and makes no fuss he has gained a higher standing than the man who gave millions who needed to advertise the event.

Reading this one can think of Bill and Melinda Gates, Ted Turner and Warren Buffet between them all billions of dollars but at each news conference called advertising how kind I am and how wonderful giving away billions. No merit there all about look at me.

Good question Simon43 a very good exchange.

Edited February 1, 2010 by moe666

[phetaroi]

I'm glad this post re-emerged because it has crossed my mind a few times recently and I wanted to add a comment.

The OP asked if making merit was a selfish act.

I think the answer is "yes", but usually not in a negative sense.

To me, the correct definition of "selfish" is "concerned with one's own interest". Over time we have turned it into a word with totally negative connotations.

There is much we do in life that is selfish but not negative. I ate dinner yesterday. That was selfish. It did nothing for anyone else. Totally to do with my own interest. Yet there was nothing negative about the act.

I do think that Buddhism is more about "self" than about "others", but I don't see that as inherently negative. If a person's life becomes only or mostly about "self", then you begin to have the negative connotation.

[camerata]

To me, the correct definition of "selfish" is "concerned with one's own interest". Over time we have turned it into a word with totally negative connotations.

Exactly. Hence the ridiculousness of Mahayana claiming that Theravada is selfish because adherents don't intend to "save" all beings in the universe before themselves. There's nothing wrong with wanting to reduce one's own suffering, especially since it can't be done without helping others to some extent.

[Samuian]

No goldleaf!

the existence of goldleaves and buddha statues where they supposed to be stuck on is highly misleading!

so is the "merit" making in a specified place like a temple!

the existence of various temples are only more proof of a selfserving the "I" and "me"....

the law of kamma doesn't need police, nor judges, nor courts, it comes invisibly, in utter silence on swift wings!

be good, do good and good will be with you!

No matter who wrote or said this or that!

I would like to hear what an "enlightened one" would say about this!

Temples should ALL bear facilities for the sick, disabled an school's and emphasis entirely on the welfare of human beings

and not bathing in glittering gold and shiny tiles, competing with the temple "next door", abbot against abbot, who can build the most beautiful and costliest temple - it's disgustingly derailing the genuine core of budha's teachings!

sorry not meant to offend anyone's religious feelings, just my very personal view of things...

I have the strong felling that much of this is invented by men, to exploit the feeble!

[phetaroi]

Temples should ALL bear facilities for the sick, disabled an school's and emphasis entirely on the welfare of human beings

and not bathing in glittering gold and shiny tiles, competing with the temple "next door", abbot against abbot, who can build the most beautiful and costliest temple - it's disgustingly derailing the genuine core of budha's teachings!

sorry not meant to offend anyone's religious feelings, just my very personal view of things...

I have the strong felling that much of this is invented by men, to exploit the feeble!

I understand your feelings, but some of this is just human nature and not any attempt to "exploit the feeble". I like to visit temples...large or small, famous or not. To be honest, the poor temples are poor for many reasons, including their cleanliness and run down appearance. People naturally tend to go to nicer places. And, I don't remember being inspired at the really poor temples...but have been inspired occasionally when I see the level of devotion at some of the more impressive temples.

There are temples where the visible $$$$=machine is demoralizing.

[dutchguest]

No goldleaf!

the existence of goldleaves and buddha statues where they supposed to be stuck on is highly misleading!

so is the "merit" making in a specified place like a temple!

the existence of various temples are only more proof of a selfserving the "I" and "me"....

the law of kamma doesn't need police, nor judges, nor courts, it comes invisibly, in utter silence on swift wings!

be good, do good and good will be with you!

No matter who wrote or said this or that!

I use the temple complexes mostly to escape from the heat and the noise outside and to be able to sit somewhere in the shadow in a quiet place.

I can also most of the time enjoy the beauty of the buildings and statues and I can imagine that -especially poor people- can come in the mood of worship and devotion and want to offer something.

But I agree with you that this are only conditioned reactions in a specific place and time and that in essence place and time shouldn't matter so much.

I am also sometimes struck by the great contrasts of the richness of the temples and the poverty of the living conditions next door. But may be by seeing and visiting the temples and offering something they feel part of it and they can accept their living conditions.

[agent69]

When I was studying in a high school in Thailand over 20 years ago, they just introduced a buddhism subject as part of the curriculum. in an exam there was a question asking whether Prince Siddhartha was selfish for leaving his family behind in search of the way to end it all. What's a twisted question to ask students in a predominantly buddhist country. So I answered the question honestly the way I could logically conclude.

Anyway, I didn't (and still don't) know how open-minded the teacher was, I might have got zero mark for that question.

[phetaroi]

When I was studying in a high school in Thailand over 20 years ago, they just introduced a buddhism subject as part of the curriculum. in an exam there was a question asking whether Prince Siddhartha was selfish for leaving his family behind in search of the way to end it all. What's a twisted question to ask students in a predominantly buddhist country. So I answered the question honestly the way I could logically conclude.

Anyway, I didn't (and still don't) know how open-minded the teacher was, I might have got zero mark for that question.

Actually, that's a very interesting question. Shall we discuss it?