Veterans Day In The Usa

[GrahamF]

As it is Veterans Day here in the USA, I would like to thank all the vets of all nationalities living in Thailand for their service to their respective nations.

[GrahamF]

All the vets? We have some ex-Nazis here, likely some Rape of Nanking veterans, and probably some Al Queda veterans. Did you really mean ALL the vets?

Not that I agree with the Nazis, etc, etc, but they were serving their countries and maybe they felt they were doing the right thing. Should we eliminate gay vets because some people might be homophobic or female vets because some may not have been in actual combat.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to honor the vets and I have read enough of your posts to know that you really do get the gist of it and are playing the devils advocate, as am I in the paragraph above.

[bonobo]

Today is Armistice Day in Thailand as well (not to mention Remembrance Day in the UK and Armistice Day in many other nations).

[GrahamF]

So you are saying ALL nationalities of ALL wars? Thank you for sort of clarying. No, I really didn't get it, your writing was unclear. I personally don't agree that ALL vets of all wars and all countries should be honored, and adding the gay issue to this is over the top.

I apologize if the gay and/or women comments offended you. I really do think Judas is correct in saying that it is "perfectly clear". I suggest that you honor whichever veterans you choose as will I, and can we leave it at that?

[klikster]

Thank you GrahamF, I echo that same sentiment.

[Huey]

Wow Jing that's some ignorant shit, if it wasn't for the American vets there wouldn't be that isreal that you love so dearly. Wow I wasn't expecting that kind of responce.

Anyway, Yes my hats off to all the Vets and Active Service members. I happen to have the honor of working with a fair amount in theater in Iraq and Afghanistan. While I personally never served I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for those that do.

And I wonder how many US vets do we have here in Thailand? Do they have VF Lodges here for yall like they do in the States?

[Tywais]

Inflammatory and argumentative posts deleted. Yes, there are VFW chapters in Thailand. Also, I am a US veteran and how I discovered Thailand by being stationed first in Vietnam then Utapao.

[Jingthing]

Wow Jing that's some ignorant shit, if it wasn't for the American vets there wouldn't be that isreal that you love so dearly. Wow I wasn't expecting that kind of responce.

Anyway, Yes my hats off to all the Vets and Active Service members. I happen to have the honor of working with a fair amount in theater in Iraq and Afghanistan. While I personally never served I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for those that do.

And I wonder how many US vets do we have here in Thailand? Do they have VF Lodges here for yall like they do in the States?

You completely misinterpreted my posts. I didn't say anything bad about American veterans. I was only questioning the wording of the OP as I wasn't clear what nationalities of veterans he was talking about because he said ALL nationalities (which I thought was a bit odd). I asked for clarification because the audience here is international, and certainly not all pro-American either.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Jingthing

[oevna]

You completely misinterpreted my posts. I didn't say anything bad about American veterans. I was only questioning the wording of the OP as I wasn't clear what nationalities of veterans he was talking about because he said ALL nationalities (which I thought was a bit odd). I asked for clarification because the audience here is international, and certainly not all pro-American either.

Normally I find your posts to be pretty sensible Jingthing, but I have to disagree with you on this one. You are being way too pedantic. This was clearly a good sentiment, and given that it was brought up in the context of US Veteran's Day, it was clearly intended to be a gesture towards veterans of the US and its allies who have served us so well in the past.

I'm going to assume that you were drunk or hung over when you made those posts!

[Jingthing]

OK, sorry if you took it wrong. I don't get drunk, maybe that's my problem. Pedantic or not, I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for clarification about anyone's post. Apparently this topic is a sacred cow for many people.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Jingthing

[sassienie]

Wow Jing that's some ignorant shit, if it wasn't for the American vets there wouldn't be that isreal that you love so dearly. Wow I wasn't expecting that kind of responce.

Anyway, Yes my hats off to all the Vets and Active Service members. I happen to have the honor of working with a fair amount in theater in Iraq and Afghanistan. While I personally never served I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for those that do.

And I wonder how many US vets do we have here in Thailand? Do they have VF Lodges here for yall like they do in the States?

Historically that’s incorrect.

It was the British who handed over Palestine to the Jews in 1948. The Promised Land.

The Americans were late attending both world wars and the Australians pulled out of the Vietnam war after a secret document was leaked out quoting that the Australians made good canon fodder.

At the beginning of WW2 Britain stood on it`s own against the axis powers. It was debatable at the time what side the Americans would fight on. But in 1941 the war turned up on their doorstep (Pearl Harbour), so the Yanks became part of the allies, they had no choice.

These are the actual facts.

Edited November 11, 2009 by sassienie

[Jingthing]

Careful about facts. I got the message now that the intention of this thread was an invitation for people to express the standard, mainstream American veterans day sentimentality (even though this isn't an American board), and nothing more.

[phetaroi]

The Americans were late attending both world wars...At the beginning of WW2 Britain stood on it`s own against the axis powers. It was debatable at the time what side the Americans would fight on. But in 1941 the war turned up on their doorstep (Pearl Harbour), so the Yanks became part of the allies, they had no choice.

These are the actual facts.

No, those are not the actual facts. But before I get to that, my hats off to the "Western" Vets. Last evening I was stitting at the computer and it suddenly popped into my head about "on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day". It made me remember my dad who was in the push up through the boot of Italy and then over into Germany in the waning days of the war. Three years ago on a day-off from school (I was a school admin) I decided to do a walk in Washington. Quite by accident in my wanderings I ended up at the WWII Memorial, and seeing a few REALLY old vets there, along with the remembrances by so many family members (photos, flowers, et.c)...well, it really got to me.

Now, as to your actual facts:

The American Congress had passed the Neutrality Act in the mid-1930s. As early as 1938, Roosevelt began working toward manipulating American thought toward ultimately intervening on the side of England and France. This was difficult due to the isolationist sentiments in the States at the time, and in fact, even as late as 1940, FDR had to campaign on a platform of no intervention. Nevertheless, by 1938 FDR was working on ways to bypass the Neutrality Act...hence, ultimately, Lend-Lease, although many deals were made with the French and British to buy arms from us at unreasonably favorable terms well before lend-lease.

Perhaps you could say that America was "late to the war," but since we had not been attacked yet, the American democracy had to be pushed in the right direction. That's one of the problems or blessings of being in a democracy.

As references, read either of the two recent FDR biographies, or event he fairly thorough Wikipedia entry on FDR.

[oevna]

OK, sorry if you took it wrong. I don't get drunk, maybe that's my problem. Pedantic or not, I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for clarification about anyone's post. Apparently this topic is a sacred cow for many people.

I was kidding about being drunk!

But on a serious note, while "sacred cow" may not quite be accurate, I think it is a very personal issue for many people because of the sacrifices that veterans and their families have made while serving their country. So while you are right that this is not a message board about the US, there is a strong history of US servicemen in Thailand, and a number of veterans currently live in Thailand and make up a significant part of the expat community. I don't see any harm in expressing recognition to them on Veteran's Day, the day that their peers back home are also being recognized.

Cheers,

[phetaroi]

Not that I agree with the Nazis, etc, etc, but they were serving their countries and maybe they felt they were doing the right thing. Should we eliminate gay vets because some people might be homophobic or female vets because some may not have been in actual combat.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to honor the vets and I have read enough of your posts to know that you really do get the gist of it and are playing the devils advocate, as am I in the paragraph above.

Graham, this is an interesting post.

I happen to be from Virginia (at least prior to retiring here in Thailand) and I am a bit into history. A few years ago I happened to be down in Fredericksburg, Virginia at one of the Civil War battlefields taking some photos. There was a family in the Confederate cemetery placing flowers on one of the old graves. It really got me to thinking about right and wrong in wars. And its an issue I still struggle with.

[bonobo]

And I wonder how many US vets do we have here in Thailand? Do they have VF Lodges here for yall like they do in the States?

There are 5 posts in Thailand and one in Cambodia.  Besides taking care of the vets, they also assist some 400 Thai widows of vets.

The Bangkok VFW post was invited to place a wreath at the WWI Monument for Thai Armistice Day yesterday, and the Thai vets and active duty military were unbelievably friendly and welcoming.

[colinscarr]

We need to remember that the servicemen and women we honour on Remembrance Day/Veterans Day are quite distinct from the politicians who sent them to war. Some 20th century wars were just, for instance WW2 was necessary to resist Nazi (and later Japanese) dictatorship, expansionism and racism. Other wars were a lot less just - but I'll let the reader decide which ones those were.

However, the Wehrmacht and Allied soldiers who died at, for instance, Monte Casino were equally brave regardless of which politicians had justly or unjustly conscripted them and sent them to fight each other.

This is a time to honour the memory of those soldiers, not the often despicable politicians who put them in harm's way.

[bonobo]

We need to remember that the servicemen and women we honour on Remembrance Day/Veterans Day are quite distinct from the politicians who sent them to war. Some 20th century wars were just, for instance WW2 was necessary to resist Nazi (and later Japanese) dictatorship, expansionism and racism. Other wars were a lot less just - but I'll let the reader decide which ones those were.

However, the Wehrmacht and Allied soldiers who died at, for instance, Monte Casino were equally brave regardless of which politicians had justly or unjustly conscripted them and sent them to fight each other.

This is a time to honour the memory of those soldiers, not the often despicable politicians who put them in harm's way.

Good post!

[Jingthing]

Excuse me, but are you saying there is no such thing as war crimes? How can we honor the soldiers of many nationalities who participated in atrocities? Yeah, I know, just following orders. Remember, concentration camp guards were soldiers too. They weren't politicians. LBJ was not at My Lai. I know people just want to express their patriotism and honor the brave fallen, but the reality of what happens in wars is much more messy. I reckon this unqualified military nostalgia makes it more likely that countries will make the same mistakes that lead to wars, again and again, in the future. Sometimes the wars are justified, probably most times if you look at history, they were a massive waste of lives and treasure (Iraq is a great example). I understand countries must do this, so they can justify sending boys to their deaths in the future, it is the way of the world and our species.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Jingthing

[bonobo]

Excuse me, but are you saying there is no such thing as war crimes? How can we honor the soldiers of many nationalities who participated in atrocities? Yeah, I know, just following orders. Remember, concentration camp guards were soldiers too. They weren't politicians. LBJ was not at My Lai. I know people just want to express their patriotism and honor the brave fallen, but the reality of what happens in wars in much more messy. I reckon this unqualified military nostalgia makes it more likely that countries will make the same mistakes that lead to wars, again and again, in the future. I understand countries must do this, so they can justify sending boys to their deaths in the future, it is the way of the world and our species.

Who is bringing up war atrocities?  No one has posted anything about honoring war criminals, at least not that I have read here.  This started as a simple post of recognition to vets just as we have had similar threads started to give wishes to Thais on their holidays and other nations on theirs.  I see nothing sinister about that.

So with my moderator hat on now, let's keep out the attempts to make this thread into some sort of controversy.  

[Jingthing]

Fine, but remember it was the OP who brought up the issue of ALL countries. That opens a can of worms. I didn't open it, I just had a look into the can. Also, the later poster mentioned that Nazi soldiers were brave and deserve to be honored too. I thought such ideas at least deserved discussion. Mod -- you don't want controversy, well, I guess I should exit the thread. Carry on gentlemen!

Edited November 12, 2009 by Jingthing

[sassienie]

Excuse me, but are you saying there is no such thing as war crimes? How can we honor the soldiers of many nationalities who participated in atrocities? Yeah, I know, just following orders. Remember, concentration camp guards were soldiers too. They weren't politicians. LBJ was not at My Lai. I know people just want to express their patriotism and honor the brave fallen, but the reality of what happens in wars is much more messy. I reckon this unqualified military nostalgia makes it more likely that countries will make the same mistakes that lead to wars, again and again, in the future. Sometimes the wars are justified, probably most times if you look at history, they were a massive waste of lives and treasure (Iraq is a great example). I understand countries must do this, so they can justify sending boys to their deaths in the future, it is the way of the world and our species.

Most of the soldiers and individuals that participated in the war atrocities, both the 1914 – 1918 and 1939 – 1945 world conflicts are now dead.

I have my doubts that anyone would honour ex Japanese POW guards, SS guards and high-ranking nazi officials at a Veterans Day event.

If one looks at the statistics, more Christians fighting for the axis powers were killed than any other group.

One should never forget, but it`s time to heal old wounds and let the new generations of all nationalities live in harmony and peace together.

After all, that’s what we were fighting for, wasn’t it?

[Tywais]

Fine, but remember it was the OP who brought up the issue of ALL countries.

However you are the one who decided to push the context and spirit of the topic in another direction. I would suggest not to further disrupt this topic or face the consequences. This is the 2nd formal caution by two mods so it can't be more clear then that.

[PeaceBlondie]

No comment except an absolute command: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

[sassienie]

No comment except an absolute command: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Does that include my Mother in Law?

[Huey]

I'm hard pressed if it includes mother in law ... can I Love Jingthing instead????