This concept of "face"

[sbk]

I would agree with D80 that face has different meanings among different classes and regions. I live in the South where the concept of "face" is taken quite seriously and many a man has been killed for making another look foolish, weak or stupid. Face here has much more meaning than being polite to another person and has alot to do with how others perceive you. If you behave in an aggressive, rude manner to someone you have lost face, not the other person. however, if you behave in a way that makes the other person look bad or foolish to those around him then you run the risk of losing alot more than just "face".   the local people here all are pretty much in the same class/background. of course, there are variations but not in as large a degree as somewhere like bangkok. Its hard to feel superior to someone when most likely they are your second cousin twice removed on your mothers side

And to be honest, my husband refuses to ask thai people directions if we get lost because if they don't know the answer they will make it up. I have always assumed they don't want to look foolish or ignorant.

As for the double pricing/cheating thing, well, I understand Thailand is not alone in this, so it is a bit unfair to single out just thailand but yes, it is annoying. However, I usually enjoy watching people's mouths drop when I ask them (in my southern accented highly colloquial thai) how much. The price almost always drops at this point. If not, I just move on and buy it from someone with a more open mind.

[Pepe']

From everything I've heard if we retire in Thailand, my conclusion is to take advantage of our unique situation.

That is, my wife's mom being a fairly wealthy and "respected" business woman.  Her uncle being the governor and her brother being the chief of police. One other relative is let's say very connected.

I think my best play when doing business is to observe from the distant sidelines to avoid losing or causing someone else to lose face.

Why should I try to push the river up the stream.  My best attemps at tring to intervene with problems on a job site blew up in my face.

I don't know how to gently point out a problem with dozens of yards of rapidly drying concrete.

They've built many buildings.  I just don't know how it all comes together from previous construction experience.

Bottom line keep my mouth shut.  If anything is a serious concern it can be relayed to my wife and then to her uncle and other relatives who are let's say "very influencial."

Just keep smiling sabai sabai.  Interact as little as possible.  Don't lose/ cause to lose face and laugh all the way to the bank.

God what a great system.  ::

[wilson steer]

It is strange how 'face' is so closely linked to money. Thais really want to pay the bill for their friends on a night out, because they gain 'face' yet it amazes me that they have photographic memories as to how many times they have paid and how many return 'face' bills must be paid by the friends who received the freebie in the first place.

naturally, foreigners are rich and are expected to always foot the bill. This way we receive 'face' and are revered. Money is king, money is number 1, without it you are quite hopeless, it's good luck to give alms to the poor in Thailand, in the U.K. if I give to beggars it goes on cans of super lager and the beggar thinks I'm a mug.

Which is the best way Thailand or U.K. ? What about 'going dutch' in Thailand? It goes down like a lead balloon! To save 'face' is to lose cash, full stop. But that's why I love Thailand.......It's amazing, it's crazy, it doesn't make any sense, it makes me happy. No aggressive 'Big Issue' sellers over there and I can leave my motorcycle helmet on the handlebars......all.....night!!!!!

[Heng]

Again, it's not an absolute concept.   And there's certainly no rule that you (or any foreigners) or an "outsider" (Thais included) are included in the club.  

I have some Sicilian friends who have face related issues in just about everything they do.  They make a big deal about defending the honor of this person or that person and never saying anything that might be a loss of face to another, especially someone worthy of respect, etc.   But they'll be the first to let you know that it's totally okay to lie to "outsiders" to the group (even those way above your social status).   It's fine to swear on the Bible and lie to the Pope to save the honor (and face) of someone who you hold more dear.  

It's the same in other places in the world.   Just like truth and dishonesty in the west.   They aren't absolute.   Duh.

[Pepe']

Funny that you mention Sicilians.  I am Italian.  We used to say there are Italians and Sicilians.  It was kind of a half joke.

Nothing could be worse than to cause them to lose face/honor.

They go ballistic in a big way.  They invented the concept of Vendetta would allways carry it out one way or another, all in good time.

Growing up they were actually looked done upon by many other Italians, especially from the north as being, "animals."

No offense my "Siji" brothers.  My neighbor and good friend here in San Diego is Sicilian.  I tease him about it sometimes but not to often.

Thanks again to the forun members posting on this issue.

::

[tutsiwarrior]

always wondered about 'men of honor' whacking some defenceless dude because he wanted to 'save' face.

Don't matter much...the Coppola and Scorcese films are highly entertaining...

[Pepe']

Murderers are murderers.  It makes no difference if it 's some grease ball goomba or a guy with a badge.  Kiling is wrong period unless you're defending yourself or another defenseless person.

I believe one of the forum members allude to some Thai locals wacking some one who caused someone to lose face.

That wasn't a film that was real life.

[Begs]

That is, my wife's mom being a fairly wealthy and "respected" business woman.  Her uncle being the governor and her brother being the chief of police. One other relative is let's say very connected.

A wealthy respected business woman,  a Governor, and also the Chief of Police......... in one family........Plus one other that is let's say very connected..............

More connected then The Governor, more connected than the Chief of Police.......who?

[samsara]

Probably runs the underground lottery. Them peeps be connected like ----!

Anyone play the lotto? Why on earth would you ever? Gotta be one of the hardest lottos to win much in. Expensive too

[Heng]

No one person runs the underground lottery.   There are more branches of underground lottery dealers than there are 7-11s.   At last count (that I had heard anyway) there are about 10,500 7-11s.  

Even with this new gov't 2 and 3 number lottery game, the old underground lottery is there.    The difference is, you can gamble as much as you want.   You can bet 100k on the last two numbers if you want.   The gov't doesn't let you do that.    And yes, it is a racket at times.   Even now, in the post "rigging" days, the lottery is still "locked" every 40-50 draws or so.  

[llso]

Hi,

I can give you a glaring example of the "concept of Face". When I first came here to live we were building our factory. I had hired a very good local who was actually the junior Hedman of the village. We were doing some work and drove to town to buy some bolts.

The guy at the hardware store suggested that we use a particular size bolt for the job but my worker insisted on another. Needless to say when we got back to the worksite the bolts that the hardware guy wanted to sell us were the correct ones.

Now it was about a 12km. drive back to town. My worker began to get rreally upset and would have sooner died than go back to the original shop and admit that he was wrong. So I had to drive to another shop nearly twice the distance to buy the correct bolts. This really made a big impression on me and was a valuable lesson in "Face".

It was then that I began to understand the concept and how really unproductive it can be. I have many more examples but that is the one I remember the most clearly.

Now don't even get me started on Thai logic.

LL

[samsara]

Totally concur with your sentiments, llso.

Heng, what are you talking about? The underground lottery has all but stopped--nothing like it was a year ago. About 5 months ago government began a huge crusade to monopolize the lottery, so as to get more money. To save face or legitimise itself somewhat, the govt. claims it gives the money to the needy...uhuh, sure.

People who ran (yeah, its plural--more than one person!) the outfit are now all scared of the govt. and dont want anything to do with it. Hence why the govt. run lottery has taken off.  But those same people, the ones who controlled the underground lottery, basically run the provinces. They are either really the "elected" governors or have puppeteer-like control of one. Politics, my friends.

[Heng]

The underground lottery is most certainly still there.   It's one of the safest businesses around.   There are no big piles of drugs or cash that can ever be seized.   The only evidence is usually a medium sized notebook with the current bets.   There are people who play the gov't version, sure.   But anyone who wants to bet more than a fixed amount, still plays the old school version.    The gov't would probably like people to believe that people aren't betting on football anymore either.  

 

[Pepe']

Begs,

I think I've said more than enough about family connections.

I beleive you get the picture.

llso,

One of my favorite face stories yet.  Come on now enlighten us on Thai logic.  Won't you?

Samsara,

Being a student and teacher of Vedanta, I love your handle.  Around and around we go.  Also appreciate your perspectives.

:cool:

[Pepe']

More stuff on "Face"

[bina]

face is prestige and honour;

israel being middle east has all the varieties depending on which ethnic group: on kibbutz, face is measured by how aggessive verbally, gruff, rough, tough, bull dozer type, bang on the table type and how fast u get things done.... my mild mannered quiet attitude means that to get anything fixed in my zoo, home or wherever i wait twice as long even if i asked first (no money involved we are still the original kibbutz style) .... who ever makes a scandal about something, his 'worth' and power go up a notch... so our 'puu yai ban' (he really is that on kibbutz) is someone who has managed to push things thru very quickly , never mind politness, etc....

among many ethnic groups here, white lies are a way to save face; i think we are 'sicilian' in style here...the arab sector being even more extreme in face and honour.

[toastwars]

"face" in a buddhist country????? One of the main tenets of buddhism is that one should forgo ones ego to achive enlightenment. All this "face" thing is total <deleted>. People should learn to get over themselves. It is "face" that holds this country back. Learning to accept constructive critisism is a positive step.

[kat]

A workman at my school (I'm a teacher) recently greeted me very loudly, in front of other workmen. I nodded and said hello and he proceeded to say things about me in Thai as he was laughing. He made no attempt to disguise the fact that he was talking about me.

I find this especially disrespectful, because I don't think he would ever attempt this behavior with a Thai teacher. Today he loudly says hello again, in front of someone else. I said hello, but with a noticeable coolness and distance.

Did I make him lose face?

[Golf]

A workman, not a teacher, right? I think he wants to show off to his friends that he can say something in English. Can you understand Thai language? My guess, he would say something like, "See guys, I can talk to her.", or something like that. It's disrespect and he thought you wouldn't mind. He cannot do like this toward other Thais. He knows it.

You did the right thing. But I think he still doesn't get it. Next time try ignoring him and his friends. Act like they are not there. This will tell them never do that again.

Golf

[Pepe']

"face" in a buddhist country????? One of the main tenets of buddhism is that one should forgo ones ego to achive enlightenment. All this "face" thing is total <deleted>. People should learn to get over themselves. It is "face" that holds this country back. Learning to accept constructive critisism is a positive step.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Makes you wonder...

[IMA_FARANG]

<font color='#000000'>

 I am wondering more about this slightly more subtle aspect.  Like a contractor wanting to walk off a job when I pointed out problems I saw.

That incident I understand very well. You cannot criticize people directly, especially in public, because it makes them "lose face". Guess like many westerners living in Asia I learned this the hard way. How I get around this problem nowadays I will illustrate by giving a few examples

1) For 5 years I ran a restaurant/bar that opened early and closed quite late, so in the morning when the beer delivery truck came, I wasnt there yet, and they had to do business with the lady leading the morning shift. In the beginning it happened that I got mad at her because she bought beer though it was low season and the fridge was still full of beer, but later I learned it was better to say to her: "Oh, you bought beer? Well, tomorrow you dont have to buy beer, we have plenty for a while now". Playing it that way you get the desired effect, and you dont risk her getting angry or quitting because you have made her lose face.

2) Firing staff whose performance was way under line, I always told them that there was too much staff and not enough customers. Even if they realize that the place is in fact understaffed, they will accept it without hard feelings if you sugarcoat the pill this way.

3) Once I rented out a room to a girl, only to realize a few days later I had to get rid of her ASAP: the hallway next to her room was smelling heavily of a substance which might be semi legal in the Netherlands or Canada, but definitely not in Thailand. I discussed the thing with a few trusted Thai people, and ended up telling the girl she had to leave because I was about to renovate the building. I had just renovated 2 months ago so she knew it was nonsense, but still she moved the same day, and kept on greeting me when she saw me in the street afterwards.</font>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a Thai-Chinese friend who grew up with Farangs all around (his father owned a guesthouse). Once a guest wanted to do some traveling outside Bangkok. He planned to take a bus to the city he wanted to go to, then take another local bus to where he wanted to go. The problem was that the bus from Bangkok ran only three times a week, and the local bus ran on different days. The guest expected to take the bus from Bangkok, and then pick up the local bus on the same day.

My Thai friend knew the situation, but he never told the guest that he would have to spend at least one night before getting the local bus. I asked him why he never gave the guest that information. His answer was that if he did the guest might be disapointed and that would make him (my friend) lose face with the guest.

[Boon Mee]

The concept of "Face" is endemic Asia - not only Buddhist countries but places like Indonesia and commie China too.

[Pepe']

<font color='#000000'>

 I am wondering more about this slightly more subtle aspect.  Like a contractor wanting to walk off a job when I pointed out problems I saw.

That incident I understand very well. You cannot criticize people directly, especially in public, because it makes them "lose face". Guess like many westerners living in Asia I learned this the hard way. How I get around this problem nowadays I will illustrate by giving a few examples

1) For 5 years I ran a restaurant/bar that opened early and closed quite late, so in the morning when the beer delivery truck came, I wasnt there yet, and they had to do business with the lady leading the morning shift. In the beginning it happened that I got mad at her because she bought beer though it was low season and the fridge was still full of beer, but later I learned it was better to say to her: "Oh, you bought beer? Well, tomorrow you dont have to buy beer, we have plenty for a while now". Playing it that way you get the desired effect, and you dont risk her getting angry or quitting because you have made her lose face.

2) Firing staff whose performance was way under line, I always told them that there was too much staff and not enough customers. Even if they realize that the place is in fact understaffed, they will accept it without hard feelings if you sugarcoat the pill this way.

3) Once I rented out a room to a girl, only to realize a few days later I had to get rid of her ASAP: the hallway next to her room was smelling heavily of a substance which might be semi legal in the Netherlands or Canada, but definitely not in Thailand. I discussed the thing with a few trusted Thai people, and ended up telling the girl she had to leave because I was about to renovate the building. I had just renovated 2 months ago so she knew it was nonsense, but still she moved the same day, and kept on greeting me when she saw me in the street afterwards.</font>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a Thai-Chinese friend who grew up with Farangs all around (his father owned a guesthouse). Once a guest wanted to do some traveling outside Bangkok. He planned to take a bus to the city he wanted to go to, then take another local bus to where he wanted to go. The problem was that the bus from Bangkok ran only three times a week, and the local bus ran on different days. The guest expected to take the bus from Bangkok, and then pick up the local bus on the same day.

My Thai friend knew the situation, but he never told the guest that he would have to spend at least one night before getting the local bus. I asked him why he never gave the guest that information. His answer was that if he did the guest might be disapointed and that would make him (my friend) lose face with the guest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I F,

Great stories and nice tactics/advice...

[Thaiboxer]

Some very interesting stories here about "face". I've heard stories about people being killed for causing another to lose face; all this stuff about honor and trying to show off often spills over into the ridiculous category. A person killing somebody or having them killed simply because they were embarrassed by having a mistake they made pointed out to them is crazy...makes you wonder what kind of families these people (or animals) come from. A book titled "Culture Shock: Thailand" talks about face and gives an example of a patient who tries to subtley intervene when his supervisor (a doctor in this made up case)is about to give a patient arsenic instead of the correct medication. You've got to be kidding! If a doctor is about to pump arsenic into somebody, you stop him right then and there..Duhh! Of course, you could always make the doctor look good and let him poison the patient

[Thaiboxer]

oops...i meant junior doctor..not patient:)

[JGV]

Face or losing face can cleverly enable incompotent people in work or social situations to make howling blunders and nobody feels obliged to criticize because they may lose face. These instances I find totally unacceptable and it has led to me raising my voice and losing face. I don't see it as that but a wake up call for those ignorant ones but here in Thailand they seem to prefer to tolerate rather than confront. That is why things are very slow and mistakes are too frequently made.

JGV

[Thaiboxer]

JGV..it's interesting that you mentioned the tolerance part of it. However, I feel that a lot of folks here will confront somebody who's giving them a hard time more often than we think. Perhaps confrontations were less in the past but things are changing.

[Pepe']

Everything you wanted to know about face...

[JetsetBkk]

Everything you wanted to know about face...

Wow! A 4 year old thread! Excellent stuff, Pepe. I though Chon's first post about the old man keeling over when he thought his neighbour was going to build an 8 mil baht house was great!

[Pepe']

Everything you wanted to know about face...

Wow! A 4 year old thread! Excellent stuff, Pepe. I though Chon's first post about the old man keeling over when he thought his neighbour was going to build an 8 mil baht house was great!

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It was a good year...