This concept of "face"

[sukanyacondo]

So it seems then that face is just holding Thailand back and is complete crap? Something Ive thought for sometime. Cant see it serving any useful purpose at all except to create more problems at a later date.

I don t shout or stamp but will keep repeating in a calm way if there is a problem.

Went to buy a sofa once and they said delivery 2 weeks. I asked if I could have the showroom model, "cannot" they said, so i start my little game with them, "why" I say, "cannot" they reply, then they say hmmm you are the 2nd person that has asked to buy this today. !!!!!! Ha ha so off I go with my next line, I say ok so you mean many days people ask for this model but you cant sell it? "yes" they say, I say ok so in 1 year maybe you could have sold another 100+ sofas?? but didnt???? How do you think the boss would feel about this if he knew could have sold another 100 sofas?? baffled look on their faces, can amost see the cogs going round etc. Can imagine them thinking that only the boss could think up such a cunning way to increase sales etc and they must not tell him after all he is the boss he should think of this thats why hes the boss!!! Ha ha I wear them down and dont give up.

30 minutes later they are loading it onto our pick up.

Next day theres another sofa the same on their stand.

Played a similar game with Bangkok bank it lasted 5 hours!!!!

[Pepe']

So it seems then that face is just holding Thailand back and is complete crap? Something Ive thought for sometime. Cant see it serving any useful purpose at all except to create more problems at a later date.

I don t shout or stamp but will keep repeating in a calm way if there is a problem.

Went to buy a sofa once and they said delivery 2 weeks. I asked if I could have the showroom model, "cannot" they said, so i start my little game with them, "why" I say, "cannot" they reply, then they say hmmm you are the 2nd person that has asked to buy this today. !!!!!! Ha ha so off I go with my next line, I say ok so you mean many days people ask for this model but you cant sell it? "yes" they say, I say ok so in 1 year maybe you could have sold another 100+ sofas?? but didnt???? How do you think the boss would feel about this if he knew could have sold another 100 sofas?? baffled look on their faces, can amost see the cogs going round etc. Can imagine them thinking that only the boss could think up such a cunning way to increase sales etc and they must not tell him after all he is the boss he should think of this thats why hes the boss!!! Ha ha I wear them down and dont give up.

30 minutes later they are loading it onto our pick up.

Next day theres another sofa the same on their stand.

Played a similar game with Bangkok bank it lasted 5 hours!!!!

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As long as you can keep smiling and having fun with it you'll be OK...

[qwertz]

Yo pepe, I've cut and pasted my own post from the other "face" thread as it's just as topical here.

IMO, "face" is international.

Some call it prestige, others call it pride, status or esteem.

It all depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

It can be the guy next door who must have a bigger car than you.

Or his wife who has to have a mink coat because the neighbour's wife has one.

Or the guy who uses his car to threaten the car in front because the woman driver cut in on him.

Or the guy who gets a kicking from somebody harder because he just can't walk away from a threat.

Or the boss who pins the blame for failures on his staff rather than admit he lost the plot.

Or that infuriating Thai that you have to humour, even though he's totally wrong.

Because you've been warned that "face" is all important in LOS.

Losing face says it all.

"Face" people are losers and face is BS.

And they perpetuate the BS because it's a good cover for their inadequacies.

Do as pepe advises, just smile 'em down.

And if you can't do that, avoid 'em.

"Face is just another word for nothin' left to lose"

Edited June 6, 2007 by qwertz

[Pepe']

Yo pepe, I've cut and pasted my own post from the other "face" thread as it's just as topical here.

IMO, "face" is international.

Some call it prestige, others call it pride, status or esteem.

It all depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

It can be the guy next door who must have a bigger car than you.

Or his wife who has to have a mink coat because the neighbour's wife has one.

Or the guy who uses his car to threaten the car in front because the woman driver cut in on him.

Or the guy who gets a kicking from somebody harder because he just can't walk away from a threat.

Or the boss who pins the blame for failures on his staff rather than admit he lost the plot.

Or that infuriating Thai that you have to humour, even though he's totally wrong.

Because you've been warned that "face" is all important in LOS.

Losing face says it all.

"Face" people are losers and face is BS.

And they perpetuate the BS because it's a good cover for their inadequacies.

Do as pepe advises, just smile 'em down.

And if you can't do that, avoid 'em.

"Face is just another word for nothin' left to lose"

---------------------------

I agree that it is international. After traveling throughout Asia, IMHO the Thais just take it to a whole other level.

Maybe it's just the Thai spices that give it a different flavor...

[qwertz]

Pepe, I've seen people literally lose their face over trying to save face.

Not a pretty sight.

Edited June 6, 2007 by qwertz

[Thaddeus]

A quick question to anyone who used to or still does work in the western world.

And this requires a serious answer.

You make a mistake in your job.

Would you stand up in front of your peers, superiors and underlings and say "sorry, I fcuked up"

That part of 'face' I understand quite well, as it is just a human trait and not just a Asian feature, the part I struggle with is the questioning of others, authority figure or not.

"this shop have xxx darling?"

"not have" comes the reply before the car has stopped moving.... well it did two years ago, but after countless "just bloody well go inside and ask them" wifey has now lost that habit and she now takes glee in questioning authority on a regular basis (I dread going to immigration these days) .... I consider that to be my contribution to dragging Thailand out of the dark ages.

Little story...... last immigration visit in Bangkok.

While I was sitting at the desk filling out the relevant form the official was flicking through our paperwork and the stamps in my Passport, she asked my wife why we were only doing this now as we had been married for three years, her answer was very direct "well, first year was in the UK, second year Samee had a one year visa, then we have spent the last nine months pissing around because someone in a uniform decided to change the rules"

Sharp intake of breath .... a moments silence .... and then raucous laughter from the official and all her colleagues who were listening in.

The chap on the next desk then asked my wife where I was from and she told him England, near Liverpool..... I raised my head and said "if you say Milan, I will hurt you" .... he laughed and said "no, no, I like Liverpool"

20 minutes later I had the right stamp in my Passport and it was smiles all round.

Thai people are just that, people. And in a ground level situation once the issue of 'face' has been raised and forgotten and all participants in any discussion realise that we are all human, life gets much easier.

Let's take my first question to the extreme.

You make a mistake in your job, before you know it you have a microphone and camera shoved in your face. I can guarantee the words that will never come out of your mouth are "sorry, I fcuked up"

(I like John Major, he shagged Edwina Curry and admitted it publicly, that man has balls of steel)

[sukanyacondo]

Thaddeus good story but "I will admit when I have " I F****d up. (Im a decorator in the Uk) I have done this several times in the last 20 years but I do know lot of other tradesmen who will pretend they didnt. This I can understand as usually it means they have to rectify thier mistake and theyre too idle to do so or it will cost them time and money they dont want to use which is still wrong and I dont agree with it.I painted a room the wrong colour once my mistake but i get angry with myself for not paying attention and rectify it for the customer with a million apologies and often telling them I feel stupid whihc helps a lot. They dont mind as I have accepted all responsibiltiy for my errors and I think it makes them happy to have you work for them again as they know you wont con them. last week I ripped a piece of paper I was hanging, paper that wou;d be emulsioned when I had hung it, the rip would never have shown after emulsioning, but the customer saw me rip it, he did not understand that it would never be seen once the paper had dried and been emulsioned, he still asked me to change it, i explained it will not show later , he was not happy so i changed it, result he was happy I keep the customer.

My problem is the smaller things like asking directions and being told something thats not true for "face " saving or too simply say you dont know.

The again is this really "face" or not Im still waiting to find out?

[sukanyacondo]

"wifey has now lost that habit and she now takes glee in questioning authority on a regular basis (I dread going to immigration these days) .... I consider that to be my contribution to dragging Thailand out of the dark ages"

Same with my wife she now relishes asking many questions and is beginning to see that there is a problem with many things that before we met she would have accepted.

[Pepe']

Pepe, I've seen people literally lose their face over trying to save face.

Not a pretty sight.

----------------------

Interesting...

[jumnien]

Remember that most farang have been raised in "shame based" family systems. It is all important that if something is not to their liking that someone must be blamed, someone must be shamed, a big deal must be made about everything as this is how daddy dealt with life when they were small children. The farang moves to Thailand and perpetuates the "shame game"; it is a sad sight. The concept of acceptance or letting go does not register to the shame based psyche. Compassion for the shame based farang is essential as they go thru life upset over the smallest things and blaming everyone endlessly.

[Pepe']

Remember that most farang have been raised in "shame based" family systems. It is all important that if something is not to their liking that someone must be blamed, someone must be shamed, a big deal must be made about everything as this is how daddy dealt with life when they were small children. The farang moves to Thailand and perpetuates the "shame game"; it is a sad sight. The concept of acceptance or letting go does not register to the shame based psyche. Compassion for the shame based farang is essential as they go thru life upset over the smallest things and blaming everyone endlessly.

----------------------------

If you have seen the Shame Game then you should see the Crying Game...

[sukanyacondo]

Remember that most farang have been raised in "shame based" family systems. It is all important that if something is not to their liking that someone must be blamed, someone must be shamed, a big deal must be made about everything as this is how daddy dealt with life when they were small children. The farang moves to Thailand and perpetuates the "shame game"; it is a sad sight. The concept of acceptance or letting go does not register to the shame based psyche. Compassion for the shame based farang is essential as they go thru life upset over the smallest things and blaming everyone endlessly.

Hmmmmm im stll not understanding this????, if someone steals my car should i be "mai pen raiing"? or should I be accepting its my fault for buying the car and luring the person who stole it to do this deed and thier need is greater than mine?

Should I just move on and mayb e have it hapen again even maybe by the same thief?

Is this the Thai way???

getting more confused with this???

[jumnien]

Read some John Bradshaw to understand the farang shame and shaming, blame and blaming strategy for lifelong suffering.

Edited June 7, 2007 by mdeland

[sukanyacondo]

thanks

[jumnien]

Suk,

I like your stolen car analogy but most people never have a car stolen in their lifetime. Much more common is someone cutting you off in traffic. The 'save face" thing to do is smile at them and let them go on their way. Sure, they may get to the destination .26 seconds faster than you, but does it really matter. You smiled at them and your heart stayed cool.

The shaming farang or Thai however sees it as his obligation to shame the offender by honking, screaming and getting upset everytime someone cuts him off in traffic. Literally thousands of times in his lifetime he sacrifices his serenity in his perceived obligation to the master of shame. He sees himself as some kind of policeman to the world and judge and jury and punisher - a painful existence and a heavy burden to carry. Better to lighten up and be slow to give up one's happiness.

[sukanyacondo]

I ignore them usually or maybe assume they masde a mitake, thanks for this explanation its easier for me to comprehend.

[sukanyacondo]

You man like TV members do gufawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[sukanyacondo]

mean

[Pepe']

Suk,

I like your stolen car analogy but most people never have a car stolen in their lifetime. Much more common is someone cutting you off in traffic. The 'save face" thing to do is smile at them and let them go on their way. Sure, they may get to the destination .26 seconds faster than you, but does it really matter. You smiled at them and your heart stayed cool.

The shaming farang or Thai however sees it as his obligation to shame the offender by honking, screaming and getting upset everytime someone cuts him off in traffic. Literally thousands of times in his lifetime he sacrifices his serenity in his perceived obligation to the master of shame. He sees himself as some kind of policeman to the world and judge and jury and punisher - a painful existence and a heavy burden to carry. Better to lighten up and be slow to give up one's happiness.

-------------------------

Yesterday here in heavenly San Diego, I was attempting to back out from a corner spot of a full parking lot (in an area we call "little Asia"). As I was backing out of the tight corner a Phillipina woman was waiting for the spot to my left. OK.

Then as I was inching my way out, had to pull back and forth a few times in order to even get a good angel to get out. A Chinese woman pulled up on the other side, wanting the spot also, so now she was blocking me from moving. I could not get out at all. So I waited and waited and waited in reverse with my foot on the break.

Waited I estimate about half a minute while observing the confused blank stares on their faces. None of us could move. Finally I leaned on the horn and said #### ### ####### ### #### etc. Get out of the way.

The Chinese woman finally gave way, a couple of feet only, still not enough for me to move.

I don't think I blew my stack light that in a long time. Then I said,################################################################

########################!!!!!!!

You get my drift and she finally gave way enough for me to get out of the spot and the Phillapina that had been waiting pulled into the spot she had been waiting for. As I passed buy the Chinese lady on the way out of the lot. She was going ballistic into a screaming tirade.

I pointed down to the front of the driver's seat and nodded my head in an affirmative motion as though there was something there that she might be interested in.

I can tell you this I did not feel like a policeman to the world but but I did feel like the judge ,jury executioner and more than that master of the universe.

I had been liberated from my painful existence and I felt as if the heavy a burden had been lifted from my shoulders.

I felt much lighter and was d-- happy to get away from those wack jobs.

Nirvanna, Satori, Liberation and self Realization, Newark style...

You gotta problem with that?...