Red Shirt Rally November 29

[webfact]

PRO-THAKSIN MASS RALLY

Cabinet okays ISA in capital, not Chiang Mai

By The Nation

Published on November 25, 2009

The Cabinet yesterday approved the enforcement of the Internal Security Act (ISA) across the capital because intelligence officials have reported that anti-government protesters are planning to create chaos with the ultimate goal of ousting the government.

The security law will be imposed from November 28 to December 14 to brace for the mass rallies the red-shirt Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship are planning to hold from Saturday to Wednesday.

Deputy government speaker Supachai Jaisamut said the Cabinet did not want a repeat of the bedlam in April when the red shirts blocked the Victory Monument and nothing could be done to stop them.

Supachai added that the Cabinet had decided it was not suitable to impose the security law in Chiang Mai during Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's visit on Sunday, and the situation should be closely monitored instead. The PM will be in the northern capital to attend a meeting with the Chamber of Commerce.

PM's Office Minister Satit Wongnongtaey said Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban had visited Chiang Mai on Monday to check the venue and found that a lot of bodyguards would be needed to ensure the PM's security. However, he said, there was enough time to make preparations and evaluate the situation.

Abhisit said the government had no choice but to impose the security law because it would be preparing state ceremonies for His Majesty's birthday anniversary during the same period that the red shirts plan to hold their rallies.

Asked if the government believed the number of protesters would reach millions, Abhisit said it was hard to speculate but a seven-digit figure would be unusually high. He said the Labour Ministry would strictly monitor the situation to see if any alien workers are mobilised to join the rally as reported.

The premier said the Cabinet would meet again on Friday to decide whether it is necessary to impose the ISA in Chiang Mai.

When asked if he believed the enforcement of the security law in Chiang Mai would adversely affect tourism, Abhisit said he did not think so because tourism businesses had told him that imposing ISA would give them confidence that the government has the tools to manage the situation. Besides, the public understands that imposing the law would help prevent unnecessary violence.

Meanwhile, Army chief General Anupong Paochinda has called for a security meeting to prepare for the red-shirt rallies in Chiang Mai and Bangkok. A source said that Anupong had instructed the military not to resort to force, but strictly follow standard practices in dealing with protesters.

Anupong said if the Cabinet imposed the security law in Chiang Mai, the Third Army Region would mobilise the 33rd Military Circle to secure the city, otherwise the military would support the police.

-- The Nation 2009/11/25

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[animatic]

Who could have NOT imagined that public sentiment would

NOT be with them starting a destructive rally a few days before HRM birthday.

Well yes of course we know this crew that wants to govern all Thais,

doesn't think past breakfast, unless someone tells them what to think about.

[webfact]

Thaksin to Red Shirts: 'postpone rally, it's not right time'

BANGKOK, Nov 25 (TNA) - Fugitive ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra on Tuesday 'called in' to his supporters in Thailand to urge the key 'Red Shirt' leaders of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) to postpone the group's demonstration this weekend, saying that it is an inappropriate time, being close to His Majesty's birthday.

Mr Thaksin commented as he addressed a meeting of the opposition Puea Thai members of parliament, according to Puea Thai MP Surapong Tovichakchaikul.

The ousted premier reasoned that the public disagreed with the timing of the upcoming UDD protest as it is not appropriate, Mr Surapong explained, so he urged the Red Shirt leaders to review their plan as a number of Puea Thai MPs also disagreed with the idea.

Red Shirt leaders earlier announced that they will stage a major protest in many areas of Bangkok to topple the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration starting this Saturday and continuing through December 2, with a plan to resume after the king's birthday.

Mr Thaksin also urged the MPs to prepare for the general election saying he is confident will be held in the first half of next year, according to Mr Surapong.

The ex-prime minister said he will leave Dubai, the United Arab Emirates, to travel to many places beginning Saturday and will be near Thailand during the New Year.

The Abhisit government earlier advised the UDD to postpone its rally as the main site is used to rehearse the annual Trooping of the Colours of the Royal Guard and preparations for activities to mark the birthday of His Majesty the King during the protest period.

The Cabinet on Tuesday invoked Internal Security Act (ISA) in the Thai capital from November 28 to December 14 to maintain law and order during the UDD protest as the anti-government group planned to march to many important spots.

Meanwhile, key UDD leader Jatuporn Prompan said that it is not surprising that the government enforced the ISA, but he did not expect that the ISA timeframe would be as long as announced.

Mr Jatuporn said it is not appropriate that the Thai people celebrate the king's birthday (December 5) under a security clampdown. He said the government should apply the act only from November 28 to December 2, the group's announced protesting period.

"The UDD leaders will meet Wednesday to consider whether to continue the rally," Mr Jatuporn said, "The outcome of the meeting could be both to continue or postpone the protest." (TNA)

-- TNA 2009/11/25

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[animatic]

Righty O.

Set up a big rally and then look like a hero for postponing it,

so he can look like a loyal subject...

if it oinks, looks and smells like a pig...

[Jingthing]

So the final push will be postponed? Till what date exactly? Don't the red shirts jump when Thaksin says jump?

[h90]

Righty O.

Set up a big rally and then look like a hero for postponing it,

so he can look like a loyal subject...

if it oinks, looks and smells like a pig...

.....than it a Shinawatra

[justanothercybertosser]

So, if i understand you right, you do support a group and it's activities whose ideology you abhor? And you are very pleased how the Democrats handle things. Does that also include foreign minister Kasit, who is a PAD member, held speeches on their stage, or Somkiet Pongpaiboon - one of the 5 PAD core leaders and Democrat party list MP, Kraisak Choonhavan - Democrat party list MP and regular speaker at PAD stages, or prime minister Abhisit, who makes a point to show his presence at all ASTV social functions, such as launch parties of the different propaganda outlets, such as TAN network, or ASTV/manager newpaper?

Excuse me if i am slightly confused.

Anyhow, i am yet missing your views on the article i linked to, regarding fascism, etc...

Kasit is a loose canon and not a wise choice by the Dems, I fully agree there with you!

You ask me whether I am pleased with the Dems in control? Well, let's consider the alternatives:

Thaksin and his fascist policies? Puea Thai, which only goal would be to change the constitution in order for Thaksin to return? Let's get Somchai back! The PAD? The Red leaders maybe? They make Samak (RIP) look like a schoolboy? Crimelord Newin then?

In the land of the blind, One Eye is king!

If you look at the details of this constitution, and the parts that have been proposed for amendment, you can find out that there are very logic reasons behind this that have nothing to do with Thaksin's return. The ISOC laws hand far too much power to the military, the party dissolution articles weaken parties far too much in favor of unelected institutions of the state (if one wants to really go against corruption, then there would be much that could be done in the organic laws, such as introducing stiff prison fines for convicted politicians and others - but that of course won't be done...). Look at what is done with the cyber crime act - it is used to intimidate, and has been heavily criticized not just by locals, but also by international organizations.

Crime lord newin is back already. He controls by proxy several important ministries, far beyond the quota his Bhum Jai Thai party would get if given proportionally to the number of the seat his MP's hold. He was even made responsible for the birthday celebrations of the king. Which you have to admit, makes a mockery out of things.

There are far more serious issues here at bay than Thaksin Shinawatra.

Can you please outline the "fascist policies" of Thaksin. I haven't seen any that would fall under the general definition of a fascist system, as opposed to the policies stated by the PAD.

Edited November 25, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

I think you confuse me for a PAD apologist! I was sincerely glad that they went on the streets in 2006, was shocked that it was necessary the occupy an airport at the time and am absolutely not convinced of any their ideologies! I am actually quite pleased with the Dems at the steering wheel at this particular moment!

So, if i understand you right, you do support a group and it's activities whose ideology you abhor? And you are very pleased how the Democrats handle things. Does that also include foreign minister Kasit, who is a PAD member, held speeches on their stage, or Somkiet Pongpaiboon - one of the 5 PAD core leaders and Democrat party list MP, Kraisak Choonhavan - Democrat party list MP and regular speaker at PAD stages, or prime minister Abhisit, who makes a point to show his presence at all ASTV social functions, such as launch parties of the different propaganda outlets, such as TAN network, or ASTV/manager newpaper?

Excuse me if i am slightly confused.

Anyhow, i am yet missing your views on the article i linked to, regarding fascism, etc...

Maybe you're slightly confused but we aren't. You are red.

So, everybody that does not agree with you, the PAD, or this government is automatically "red"?

Am i know a "Nac Pandin", and have to expect to have my head cut off?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Righty O.

Set up a big rally and then look like a hero for postponing it,

so he can look like a loyal subject...

It's really a challenge to make you happy is it?

[baht&sold]

Thaksin to Red Shirts: 'postpone rally, it's not right time'

And it's pure coincidence, yesterday the OAG granted an extension on Mr Thaksin's 76 billion baht assets case to hear more witnesses...

The Supreme Court is now expected to deliver its verdict on the seizure of 76 billion baht in assets in early January.

Mr Thaksin 'pretending' he isn't the de-facto red-leader and Puea Thai leader is pure codswallop given past evidence and remarks. Also, to now try to 'appear' as a statesman (knowing the court date was extended) is more self-serving callousness. Reminiscent of creating a shit-storm in Cambodia, then offering to assist to get the arrested Thai 'spy' back...

Edited November 25, 2009 by baht&sold

[bkkjames]

Thaksin to Red Shirts: 'postpone rally, it's not right time'

And it's pure coincidence late YESTERDAY the OAG granted an extension on Mr Thaksin's 76 billion baht assets case to hear more witnesses...

The Supreme Court is now expected to deliver its verdict on the seizure of 76 billion baht in assets in early January.

So what's the verdict - rally or not. Trying to decide whether or not to take my kid to the zoo on Saturday.

[TAWP]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

[LawnGnome]

Righty O.

Set up a big rally and then look like a hero for postponing it,

so he can look like a loyal subject...

It's really a challenge to make you happy is it?

Just takes a few honorable actions - something your master knows nothing about.

[bkkjames]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

It's only a million protesters if a million show up. I don't know why they didn't say 10 million quite honestly - has a nicer ring to it.

[justanothercybertosser]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

[LawnGnome]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

I think what you mean to say is "dropping Thaksin's money" would mean losing their mass appeal.... No Thaksin, no money, no red shirts. Watch how quickly the movement fizzles when Thaksin's money is finally and irrevocably seized.

[justanothercybertosser]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

I think what you mean to say is "dropping Thaksin's money" would mean losing their mass appeal.... No Thaksin, no money, no red shirts. Watch how quickly the movement fizzles when Thaksin's money is finally and irrevocably seized.

You are under a huge misconception here. The Red Shirts do have their own fundraisers all over the country, people from all walks of life do donate their own money because they do believe in the Red Shirt's will to change Thailand. The Red Shirts have clear ideologies (equal opportunities, military out of politics, pro poor policies, one man one vote, etc.).

It is rather interesting that the speeches on the Red Shirt stages are more or less never reported about in the general media here - many of them are very interesting. I can only suggest (if you speak Thai) to have a look yourself, and make up your own mind, instead of relying on second and third hand information.

[Old Man River]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

I think what you mean to say is "dropping Thaksin's money" would mean losing their mass appeal.... No Thaksin, no money, no red shirts. Watch how quickly the movement fizzles when Thaksin's money is finally and irrevocably seized.

The appeal to the average voter is Thaksin. The appeal to the average MP is his money. To operate, the party needs money. Too date, Thaksin et. al. have been funding the party with figureheads at the helm. If he loses his money, it is still within the realm of possibility that someone else will fund the party using him as the figurehead. With or without money, he will still maintain his appeal upcountry.

[KireB]

Can you please outline the "fascist policies" of Thaksin. I haven't seen any that would fall under the general definition of a fascist system, as opposed to the policies stated by the PAD.

First, for me the Red movement is 100% Shinawatra Clan! No doubt about it! And Thaksin is at helm of this clan!

Second, there's no consensus on what Fascism really is, but the following article might shed some light and describe parallels with what happened in Germany before WWII.

http://www.upiasia.com/Politics/2008/07/25...hai_style/3854/

Edited November 25, 2009 by KireB

[justanothercybertosser]

Can you please outline the "fascist policies" of Thaksin. I haven't seen any that would fall under the general definition of a fascist system, as opposed to the policies stated by the PAD.

First, for me the Red movement is 100% Shinawatra Clan! No doubt about it! And Thaksin is at helm of this clan!

Second, there's no consensus on what Fascism really is, but the following article might shed some light and describe parallels with what happened in Germany before WWII.

http://www.upiasia.com/Politics/2008/07/25...hai_style/3854/

The question here is not what the Red Shirt movement is for you.

Here is an easy way to briefly educate yourself about fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Much of the Red Shirt ideologies have nothing whatsoever to do with fascism, are the absolute opposite. They demand democracy with the one man one vote system, which is absolutely opposite of fascist core ideologies. Just read it.

If you want to draw parallels, then i would suggest to compare the statements and ideologies of the PAD with fascist ideology.

Thaksin may have been an authoritarian, but that doesn't make him a fascist.

I am getting rather tired of people throwing around labels without even understanding what these labels are defined by.

[justanothercybertosser]

The appeal to the average voter is Thaksin. The appeal to the average MP is his money. To operate, the party needs money. Too date, Thaksin et. al. have been funding the party with figureheads at the helm. If he loses his money, it is still within the realm of possibility that someone else will fund the party using him as the figurehead. With or without money, he will still maintain his appeal upcountry.

A breath of fresh air, a rare intelligent post in this mountain of polemics.

Yes, i fully agree. An extrapolating from your post - therefore there is an urgent need for a new consensus, a compromise in Thailand.

Edited November 25, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[hammered]

The appeal to the average voter is Thaksin. The appeal to the average MP is his money. To operate, the party needs money. Too date, Thaksin et. al. have been funding the party with figureheads at the helm. If he loses his money, it is still within the realm of possibility that someone else will fund the party using him as the figurehead. With or without money, he will still maintain his appeal upcountry.

A breath of fresh air, a rare intelligent post in this mountain of polemics.

Yes, i fully agree. An extrapolating from your post - therefore there is an urgent need for a new consensus, a compromise in Thailand.

That is where you are at, but it seems the exact details cannot be agreed on or are not even being talked about. Consensus is something we dont hear much of.

[KireB]

The question here is not what the Red Shirt movement is for you.

Wrong! This is a forum, which is a form of media on which people voice an opinion! Their own opinion that is!

Here is an easy way to briefly educate yourself about fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Much of the Red Shirt ideologies have nothing whatsoever to do with fascism, are the absolute opposite. They demand democracy with the one man one vote system, which is absolutely opposite of fascist core ideologies. Just read it.

If you want to draw parallels, then i would suggest to compare the statements and ideologies of the PAD with fascist ideology.

Thaksin may have been an authoritarian, but that doesn't make him a fascist.

I am getting rather tired of people throwing around labels without even understanding what these labels are defined by.

You quote Wikipedia and get tired of people without understanding!

Please get some sleep will you!

And ps: If we are using Wikipedia as a form of oracle anyway, here's a quote:

"All fascist movements advocate the creation of an authoritarian government".

Edited November 25, 2009 by KireB

[h90]

Wait, is the reds all about Thaksin or not? Some apologists want to claim it isn't and that his importance has diminished...but if with the stroke of a wand can make 'a million'[sic] protesters delay their march for a week or two...what does that say?

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

the reds are the old communists who think they can use Takki Shinegra (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/11/25/politics/politics_30117339.php) for their purposes.

While Takki thinks he can use the communists for his benefit.

It is not that the Red ideology developed far beyond Takki. It developed long before Takki.

However you see communist ideology, working together with a corrupt capitalist is a betray on their ideology.....

[rixalex]

If he loses his money, it is still within the realm of possibility that someone else will fund the party using him as the figurehead.

You are right, it's a possibility, but in the long term i don't see such an arrangement working. If Thaksin loses his money and becomes simply a figurehead, with someone else doing the funding, he will no longer be in complete control. Now you might think that having some degree of power and influence is better than none, but Thaksin is an all or nothing sort of guy.

Thaksin being beholden to others or having to take instructions would quickly end in tears i think.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The reds are very much about Thaksin, but definitely not entirely, as some of the more fanatical opponents try to make it appear. In many ways Red Shirt ideology has developed far beyond Thaksin, their demands on the state surpass what Thaksin has given or would be willing to give. Many of Thaksin's former opponents are part of the Red Shirts as well. But dropping Thaksin would mean loosing their mass appeal to the many especially rural supporters for whom Thaksin was the PM that has done more for them than any other Thai PM.

They have the choice to be a mass movement that has the chance to influence some necessary changes in the system, or to be another irrelevant debating club that won't effect nothing.

And that's exactly right! Good to see some added counter balance to the PAD/Military/FeudalElite-aplogists.

[TAWP]

And that's exactly right! Good to see some added counter balance to the PAD/Military/FeudalElite-aplogists.

It is illegal to smoke whatever you are having in Thailand.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I don't smoke, sorry. Why do so many people feel the need to make this personal? You signed up to the same stuff I did I presume?

[TAWP]

I don't smoke, sorry. Why do so many people feel the need to make this personal? You signed up to the same stuff I did I presume?

I am just concerned for your well-being since you are seeing 'PAD/Military/FeudalElite-aplogists' [sic] everywhere.

[h90]

I don't smoke, sorry. Why do so many people feel the need to make this personal? You signed up to the same stuff I did I presume?

I am just concerned for your well-being since you are seeing 'PAD/Military/FeudalElite-aplogists' [sic] everywhere.

Even Winnie is already Yellow not Red.....look the picture