Global Markets In Turmoil After Debt Bombshell

[Abrak]

Oh and BTW as noted before, this thread only makes sense so long as people can distinguish between Abu Dhabi (a massively oil and gas wealthy UAE) and Dubai (which has less than 10% of its GDP related to oil and gas and over 30% related to construction.)

I believe that Dubai accounts for less than 2% of UAE's total oil and gas reserves. I will also admit that it is easy to confuse the two as they kind of sound alike and maybe bankers also got a little bit confused along the way.

[basjke]

(Please note I am not trying to imply that all is rosy in the Thai property market. LPN is selling units from Bt1.1m or Bt3,999 per month. This will not buy you even a toilet in Millennium Residence.)

I haven't seen those "condo's" from lpn but going out from the selling price and considering the location I guess they must be upgraded dog shelters.

Edited November 28, 2009 by basjke

[khundon]

From yahoo finance today:

The latest news is at the very least a wake-up call to investors, analysts say.

"Dubai's current problems are a long overdue consequence of the bursting of the global property bubble rather than the start of a new financial crisis," analysts at Capital Economics concluded in a research note Friday.

Analysts said they were troubled by Dubai's apparent determination to downplay its financial predicament.

Dubai's ruler, Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al-Maktoum, had continually dismissed concerns over the city-state's liquidity and denied for months that the economic downturn even touched the glitzy city-state. Two months ago, he told Dubai's critics to "shut up."

So for now Thailand must be the only real estate market in the world that is untouched by the economic crisis as even Dubai where the super rich invested is infested.How long before the bomb explodes in Thailand?

Yes, they seem to want to bury their heads in the sand, but then they do have plenty of it.

[flying]

It may also be remembered now that back in December of last year just six weeks after receiving 25B in bailout funds. CitiBank loaned 8B to Dubai. Once again one has to wonder who the bailout was bailing .

[Bizz]

It may also be remembered now that back in December of last year just six weeks after receiving 25B in bailout funds. CitiBank loaned 8B to Dubai. Once again one has to wonder who the bailout was bailing .

Dubai’s increasingly high profile spurred Abu Dhabi to break with its low-key investing tradition to purchase a big $7.5 billion stake in Citigroup.

reading between the lines------

and again

[Abrak]

I haven't seen those "condo's" from lpn but going out from the selling price and considering the location I guess they must be upgraded dog shelters.

Well maybe you are just simply underestimating the company.

First of all if you look at their reported sales and net profit you will see unparalleled success compared to any other property company. Secondly if you look at the balance sheet combined with the P&L you will see that the key to their success is not margin but asset turn. They operate off a lower gross margin than other property companies but have a much higher asset turn. So they offer product below market price, sell quickly, build quickly and make profits that way.

They are a low cost company, when I went with them to Singapore, everyone, including their Chairman flew economy. Their cost of construction is 33% below that of Sansiri. This does not mean you end up with a dog shelter - you just end up with Karat as opposed to American Standard sanitaryware. More importantly because they are working off a lower gross margin your price is even lower than their cost savings on build. Simply put if you can sell a project in less than a week, think of the cost savings already (compared to say The River.)

You know nobody is going to build a business by selling 'upgraded dog shelters' so they obviously arent. Take a look at their numbers. Simply be impressed by what a very efficient company with a very focused strategy can achieve.

[LaoPo]

It may also be remembered now that back in December of last year just six weeks after receiving 25B in bailout funds. CitiBank loaned 8B to Dubai. Once again one has to wonder who the bailout was bailing .

Dubai’s increasingly high profile spurred Abu Dhabi to break with its low-key investing tradition to purchase a big $7.5 billion stake in Citigroup.

reading between the lines------

and again

I don't think so and I also don't understand why you put two links of 2 year old financial news. Citibank is owned for the largest part by the US government which bailed them out for at least $ 45 Billion!

But, that aside.

Abu Dhabi is a lot more conservative (and right they are!) than their wild cousins in Dubai. They never needed to run along their wild speculating cousins from next door Dubai; apart from that: they could afford to lose a few dozens of billions since they will simply pump a bit of extra oil.

Dubai is practically bankrupt and the only -present- ones who can help them out are the conservative rulers (family!) of Abu Dhabi.

There's no bank in the world (including the Chinese) who will step in.

NOBODY knows how bad the situation in Dubai is at this very moment but you don't have to have a brain as big as good old Albert Einstein to realize that the situation is really bad.

There are many -Western and Asian- governments shivering right now about the consequences of this debacle since they (and large local banks) guaranteed many of the enormous building- and water-projects in Dubai. We're talking many Billions here.

I heard someone talk on television that Dubai has between $ 60 and 80 Billion in debts but more than $ 100 Billion in assets....

The big questions is; WHO decided and valued those $ 100 Billion ?

The absurd prices of houses which skyrocketed from $ 600,000 for a villa on the Palm to 2,4 - 2,8 Million and down to 1,8 Million now is an example of how crazy people are and how smart (at first) the developers and speculators are/were.

The Dubai working population consists of 85-95% foreigners and the masses are jumping on planes because their work permits are no longer extended by the government.

Dubai is one of the largest gambling developments of the past 100 years and built with other people's money but the present ruler Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum from the Al Maktoum dynasty has lost face big time towards his family members in the other UAE states/Emirates, with Abu Dhabi being the most important one, who are needed to help him out.

He certainly doesn't have the cash (anymore) to save the building craziness in Dubai.

IF Abu Dhabi decides to step in (which they did already for a certain part) and help their "brothers" in Dubai you will see soft but definite changes of high positions in Dubai and all the wild guys will be put aside and replaced by more conservative family-members and highly educated chaps from Abu Dhabi.

MOST, if not all, of the new projects will be stopped immediately and will NEVER see a start-up again. It will take decades before Dubai will start to make a bit of money again.

The Dubai Bubble exploded and the so called World project as well as the other Palm islands will slowly sink into the salt water. The Billions, needed to save those idiotic projects are simply not in the Dubai wallets anymore and the chaps in Abu Dhabi will not put their "hard earned" oil dollars into the yellow sand -again-.

Basta !

LaoPo

[Bizz]

Islamic finance has five pillars: a ban on interest, a ban on speculation, a ban on haram (forbidden) investments, such as pork or gambling, the requirement of partnership or sharing of profit and loss and the requirement of asset backing. Getting round the ban on interest is the problem and opportunity of Islamic finance … Typically, interest is expressed as a share in a profit, such as the rent paid for use of a property or asset.

Any stories that claim Dubai is a sovereign default are misleading. Dubai is sort of like a state government in a federal system and does not issue its own currency. While Dubai World is close to government it is not as far as I can tell government guaranteed.

But anyway, the structure of the UAE is such that the other emirates (particularly Abu Dhabi) are unlikely to see any major insolvencies occur anywhere in the federation.

However, potentially the UAE could collapse (very unlikely) under the strain of its currency board. Overall, the debts that are owed by Dubai firms to outsiders (in foreign currencies) are huge and it is possible (but not probable) that the country’s currency could fail trying to bail these companies out.

ok here then.

[Naam]

Supply and demand controls the price of oil, a

bingo!

Again you are wrong.

cutting a sentence to distort its meaning and then comment is typical for poor little boys who have been wrong since they started to comment on the financial crisis and related subjects.

OOPS! just realised that Lao Po had already stepped in.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Naam

[LaoPo]

Islamic finance has five pillars: a ban on interest, a ban on speculation, a ban on haram (forbidden) investments, such as pork or gambling, the requirement of partnership or sharing of profit and loss and the requirement of asset backing. Getting round the ban on interest is the problem and opportunity of Islamic finance … Typically, interest is expressed as a share in a profit, such as the rent paid for use of a property or asset.

Any stories that claim Dubai is a sovereign default are misleading. Dubai is sort of like a state government in a federal system and does not issue its own currency. While Dubai World is close to government it is not as far as I can tell government guaranteed.

But anyway, the structure of the UAE is such that the other emirates (particularly Abu Dhabi) are unlikely to see any major insolvencies occur anywhere in the federation.

However, potentially the UAE could collapse (very unlikely) under the strain of its currency board. Overall, the debts that are owed by Dubai firms to outsiders (in foreign currencies) are huge and it is possible (but not probable) that the country’s currency could fail trying to bail these companies out.

ok here then.

Although I opened your link and I consider the Economist to be a trustworthy medium I didn't read it since their is a wave of articles about Dubai, worldwide, and it's too much to read them all.

I'm sorry but I take the 5 pillars of the Islam with a large grain of Dubai salt if I may.....make that a rock of salt

I think we all could be surprised a lot by the shrewd solutions the Sheiks will come up with and leave a lot of governments and debtors in the western cold, so to speak.

Many companies will go bankrupt!

The Dubai debacle created a very very bad name for the Arab states and Dubai and the UAE in particular; in the past 2 days alone I've watched a number of respected European businesses complain about non paid bills and that already for months; so, the debacle was already known (of course!) and feared in the Islamic board rooms.

The so called Dubai assets will decline further and further since prospect buyers are nowhere to be seen on the horizon of the deserts and I don't see new prospect buyers return to the sandy shores to dump their hard earned money into a risky Emirate.

We'll see, but the future for Dubai is not very bright nor positive.

LaoPo

[Bizz]

quote LaoPo

The so called Dubai assets will decline further and further since prospect buyers are nowhere to be seen on the horizon of the deserts and I don't see new prospect buyers return to the sandy shores to dump their hard earned money into a risky Emirate.

We'll see, but the future for Dubai is not very bright nor positive. end

future projects in the pipline

[LaoPo]

quote LaoPo

The so called Dubai assets will decline further and further since prospect buyers are nowhere to be seen on the horizon of the deserts and I don't see new prospect buyers return to the sandy shores to dump their hard earned money into a risky Emirate.

We'll see, but the future for Dubai is not very bright nor positive. end

future projects in the pipline

We've to give them one thing: balls in utter imagination. The problem is that there are many well respected Architects waiting for their money (amongst many others)

The only thing I've missed in those plans is a floating Iceberg in front of the Burj Al Arab Hotel:

LaoPo

[Bizz]

there is another side.

Dubai default risks 'perfect storm'

The debt ``restructuring may be considered a default under our default criteria,'' S&P said in a statement.

article here

The biggest creditors are Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank and Emirate NBD PJSC. Other lenders include Credit Suisse Group AG, HSBC Holdings Plc, Barclays, Lloyds Banking Group Plc and Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc, according to a person familiar with the situation. Barclays slumped as much as 6.9 per cent, the biggest intraday loss in a month, while RBS sank as much as 8.3 per cent. Lloyds and Credit Suisse dropped more than 3 per cent.

``Our exposure is immaterial,'' said Credit Suisse spokesman Marc Dosch. HSBC, Lloyds and RBS declined to comment when contacted by Bloomberg. Spokespeople at Barclays were not immediately available to comment.

Emaar Properties PJSC, the U.A.E.'s biggest developer, was cut by four levels by Moody's to Ba2, two steps below investment grade. Jebel Ali Free Zone, an operator of business parks, and DIFC Investments were also lowered to speculative-grade by Moody's yesterday. DP World and Dubai Electricity & Water Authority were downgraded two levels to Baa2, the second rank above junk. Moody's and S&P said they may cut ratings further.

The debt ``restructuring may be considered a default under our default criteria,'' S&P said in a statement.

`Shut up'

Borrowing from Abu Dhabi state banks accounted for half the $US10 billion Dubai ruler Sheikh Mohammed said he planned to raise by yearend. He said Nov. 9 the program will be ``well received,'' and those who doubt the unity of Dubai and Abu Dhabi should ``shut up.''

Sheikh Mohammed removed the chairman of Dubai World from the board of Dubai's main holding company, the Investment Corporation of Dubai, last week.

Contracts on Abu Dhabi National Energy Co., the state- controlled energy producer known as Taqa, jumped 70 basis points to 250, the highest since August. Swaps linked to Mubadala Development Co., a government-backed investor that announced an $US8 billion joint venture with General Electric Co. last year, rose 111 basis points to 247, according to CMA. Mashreqbank PSC, the United Arab Emirates-based lender owned by billionaire Abdul Aziz al-Ghurair, jumped by a record 254 basis points to 639.

``It's very important to resolve this in a way that will minimize contagion across the region,'' Matrix Group's Loftus said.

Bloomberg News

I cannot see this happening to many vested interests will not allow it to happen, hoping it will happen is another matter there are those who missed the boat and are hoping stocks will retreat to a level not seen in 10 months.

[LaoPo]

I cannot see this happening to many vested interests will not allow it to happen, hoping it will happen is another matter there are those who missed the boat and are hoping stocks will retreat to a level not seen in 10 months.

What's your point Bizz ? I fail to see your own opinion.

LaoPo

[Naam]

there is another side.

Dubai default risks 'perfect storm'

The debt restructuring may be considered a default under our default criteria,'' S&P said in a statement.

for the record: using the expression "Dubai default" is incorrect. the moratorium (asked for) concerns some Dubai corporations. whether they belong nearly 100% to the ruling family is irrelevant. S&P is trying to tell us that "two plus two MAY BE CONSIDERED four".

any restructuring, respectively change of conditions, even if it is a "friendly" one through which creditors might gain yield, is per definition a default.

[trogers]

(Please note I am not trying to imply that all is rosy in the Thai property market. LPN is selling units from Bt1.1m or Bt3,999 per month. This will not buy you even a toilet in Millennium Residence.)

I haven't seen those "condo's" from lpn but going out from the selling price and considering the location I guess they must be upgraded dog shelters.

Basjke is partly correct - the toilet ventilates on to the food preparing pantry...

[Bizz]

quote What's your point Bizz ? I fail to see your own opinion.

LaoPo

end

My point is DUBAI is not finished

Global outcry over Dubai World restructuring is exaggerated

About 75 per cent of the $20b bond has already been subscribed

Dubai : When the US sneezed in the past, the rest of the world used to catch a cold, cough and probably pneumonia. However, things have changed dramatically indeed.

It seems now, if Dubai sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold. It has become more evident since Wednesday, especially after the Dubai Government announced the restructuring of Dubai World, judging by the global media outcry. The impact of the announcement appears to have been felt more outside the UAE or Gulf Cooperation Council than in Dubai. The London Stock Exchange had, on Thursday, caught a cold — really. It had nearly frozen trading due to a technical problem.

The global knee-jerk reaction to Dubai's announcement that it is restructuring Dubai World — the UAE's largest holding company — has to a large extent overshadowed the main message: the government is taking a closer look "to ensure its commercial success".

Also, the fact that two local banks subscribed to $5 billion worth of bonds went nearly unnoticed.

[trogers]

Also, the fact that two local banks subscribed to $5 billion worth of bonds went nearly unnoticed.

Who owns and control the 2 local banks?

[Terminator]

I for one agree 100% with this statement, having worked there for 3 years, only because of the absurd US$250K/year salary plus perks offer, I always wondered how long this "Disneyland for Adults" was going to last. My last project was the QE2, we had a project budget of US$750 million, we all thought Nakheel was really going bonkers. And right we were, happy to be back in Thailand now after a nice redundancy package.

It may also be remembered now that back in December of last year just six weeks after receiving 25B in bailout funds. CitiBank loaned 8B to Dubai. Once again one has to wonder who the bailout was bailing .

Dubai’s increasingly high profile spurred Abu Dhabi to break with its low-key investing tradition to purchase a big $7.5 billion stake in Citigroup.

reading between the lines------

and again

I don't think so and I also don't understand why you put two links of 2 year old financial news. Citibank is owned for the largest part by the US government which bailed them out for at least $ 45 Billion!

But, that aside.

Abu Dhabi is a lot more conservative (and right they are!) than their wild cousins in Dubai. They never needed to run along their wild speculating cousins from next door Dubai; apart from that: they could afford to lose a few dozens of billions since they will simply pump a bit of extra oil.

Dubai is practically bankrupt and the only -present- ones who can help them out are the conservative rulers (family!) of Abu Dhabi.

There's no bank in the world (including the Chinese) who will step in.

NOBODY knows how bad the situation in Dubai is at this very moment but you don't have to have a brain as big as good old Albert Einstein to realize that the situation is really bad.

There are many -Western and Asian- governments shivering right now about the consequences of this debacle since they (and large local banks) guaranteed many of the enormous building- and water-projects in Dubai. We're talking many Billions here.

I heard someone talk on television that Dubai has between $ 60 and 80 Billion in debts but more than $ 100 Billion in assets....

The big questions is; WHO decided and valued those $ 100 Billion ?

The absurd prices of houses which skyrocketed from $ 600,000 for a villa on the Palm to 2,4 - 2,8 Million and down to 1,8 Million now is an example of how crazy people are and how smart (at first) the developers and speculators are/were.

The Dubai working population consists of 85-95% foreigners and the masses are jumping on planes because their work permits are no longer extended by the government.

Dubai is one of the largest gambling developments of the past 100 years and built with other people's money but the present ruler Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum from the Al Maktoum dynasty has lost face big time towards his family members in the other UAE states/Emirates, with Abu Dhabi being the most important one, who are needed to help him out.

He certainly doesn't have the cash (anymore) to save the building craziness in Dubai.

IF Abu Dhabi decides to step in (which they did already for a certain part) and help their "brothers" in Dubai you will see soft but definite changes of high positions in Dubai and all the wild guys will be put aside and replaced by more conservative family-members and highly educated chaps from Abu Dhabi.

MOST, if not all, of the new projects will be stopped immediately and will NEVER see a start-up again. It will take decades before Dubai will start to make a bit of money again.

The Dubai Bubble exploded and the so called World project as well as the other Palm islands will slowly sink into the salt water. The Billions, needed to save those idiotic projects are simply not in the Dubai wallets anymore and the chaps in Abu Dhabi will not put their "hard earned" oil dollars into the yellow sand -again-.

Basta !

LaoPo

[Terminator]

Obviously you are not aware of hemorrhage that is Dubai today, beside some of the tourist and cheap staff, it has become a ghost town where at least 85% of the projects have been stalled or indefinitely postponed. The other project are moving at the absolute minimum pace. The Burj Dubai will still open but with interiors 50% incomplete.

Ask the poor expats who got terminated and got caught at the airport with bounced cheques and are lingering ijn Dubai jails with no hope of paying it back, as there will be very few jobs coming online in the bext few years. Don't read the heavenly censored newspapers there, they are always full of good news! Well you've seen the truth coming out now, now watch all the smaller developers falling over, the worst is yet to come, goodbye Dubai!

quote LaoPo

The so called Dubai assets will decline further and further since prospect buyers are nowhere to be seen on the horizon of the deserts and I don't see new prospect buyers return to the sandy shores to dump their hard earned money into a risky Emirate.

We'll see, but the future for Dubai is not very bright nor positive. end

future projects in the pipline

[Terminator]

And again you are relying on unreliable sources with heavenly biased and censored newspapers, anything negative about the Middle East and they will be shut down!

quote What's your point Bizz ? I fail to see your own opinion.

LaoPo

end

My point is DUBAI is not finished

Global outcry over Dubai World restructuring is exaggerated

About 75 per cent of the $20b bond has already been subscribed

Dubai : When the US sneezed in the past, the rest of the world used to catch a cold, cough and probably pneumonia. However, things have changed dramatically indeed.

It seems now, if Dubai sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold. It has become more evident since Wednesday, especially after the Dubai Government announced the restructuring of Dubai World, judging by the global media outcry. The impact of the announcement appears to have been felt more outside the UAE or Gulf Cooperation Council than in Dubai. The London Stock Exchange had, on Thursday, caught a cold — really. It had nearly frozen trading due to a technical problem.

The global knee-jerk reaction to Dubai's announcement that it is restructuring Dubai World — the UAE's largest holding company — has to a large extent overshadowed the main message: the government is taking a closer look "to ensure its commercial success".

Also, the fact that two local banks subscribed to $5 billion worth of bonds went nearly unnoticed.

[sibeymai]

I suspect the Chinese will be taking a lot of interest in this given that they are 1. cashed up, and 2. need oil. The current economic problem in the world are nothing but opportunity for countries like China.

Dear Sibey,

China's daily crude consumption exceeds 6 million barrels. Dubai is pumping approximately 160,000 barrels daily equivalent to 45 minutes of chinese demand. therefore ah sez... "China case closed".

next!

Dear Naam,

Dubai is simply the lever by which China can invest in the Middle East and access more than Dubai's oil. Of course they can do that now on the open market, but by having a greater stake in the Middle East they can do it on more favourable terms and access more of the Middle East's wealth. It's called "strategy".

[Naam]

I suspect the Chinese will be taking a lot of interest in this given that they are 1. cashed up, and 2. need oil. The current economic problem in the world are nothing but opportunity for countries like China.

Dear Sibey,

China's daily crude consumption exceeds 6 million barrels. Dubai is pumping approximately 160,000 barrels daily equivalent to 45 minutes of chinese demand. therefore ah sez... "China case closed".

next!

Dear Naam,

Dubai is simply the lever by which China can invest in the Middle East and access more than Dubai's oil. Of course they can do that now on the open market, but by having a greater stake in the Middle East they can do it on more favourable terms and access more of the Middle East's wealth. It's called "strategy".

Honourable Sir Sibey, Esq.,

as already mentioned Dubai's crude production is miniscule and will be a trickle in only a few years. the other Emirates were -compared to Dubai- rather modest in wasting money and due to their crude pumping and reserves don't require a single chinese Yuan of investment or financial assistance (notwithstanding the fact that China is eager to get her hands on any commodity globally).

as far as "strategy" and Middle East wealth is concerned, please kindly take note that it's the other way round as the "Middle East" is buying since years globally into corporates (whether industrials or financials) of its interest and if the trend goes on the Middle East will sooner or later buy into China too.

[LaoPo]

I for one agree 100% with this statement, having worked there for 3 years, only because of the absurd US$250K/year salary plus perks offer, I always wondered how long this "Disneyland for Adults" was going to last. My last project was the QE2, we had a project budget of US$750 million, we all thought Nakheel was really going bonkers. And right we were, happy to be back in Thailand now after a nice redundancy package.

a US$ 750 Million budget for a refurbishing project of the QE2 to transform it into a floating hotel ?

hmmmm...the Nakheel characters must indeed have gone nuts. And that's just one small project amongst the hundreds of crazy ideas.

But, maybe there's someone out there waiting for a bargain to buy the QE2 ?

Dubai may sell QE2 to tackle debt crisis

The high-profile "trophy asset" of Dubai's boom years may have to be sold to pay off the emirate's mounting debts.

Excerpt:

"Sheikh Mohammed has previously insisted that Dubai World is a company and not part of the government, which would not necessarily guarantee its debts. "

Doesn't that say something about the attitude of Dubai's ruler ? You are responsible for starting the greatest gamble on earth and later claim that the government (the Sheik himself, being an absolute ruler) is not responsible or guaranteeing its (Dubai World's) debts ?

Unbelievable mentality; what an attitude.

Technically he might be correct as it is indeed a company but the same company was founded by him and his family members and THUS he has a moral obligation towards the debts the company has.

From:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/finance...ebt-crisis.html

more recent news:

Dubai World refuses to sell assets cheaply: report

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...womApnmKi_BjYEA

...if they can find buyers

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

as far as "strategy" and Middle East wealth is concerned, please kindly take note that it's the other way round as the "Middle East" is buying since years globally into corporates (whether industrials or financials) of its interest and if the trend goes on the Middle East will sooner or later buy into China too.

...and vice versa; if the Arabs can't fund their (joint) ventures in the West/Asia anymore the Chinese will step in if they think it benefits them; the Chinese government outnumbers any government in cash.

The vision of the Chinese is also a much longer one in comparison with the Arabs who got wealthy only after the dark gold was found a few decades ago.

Besides, the Chinese and Arabs aren't exactly close friends; they don't like each other.

But, we have seen all this before after WWII; at a certain stage in the '70's and '80's the Japanese started to buy corporate America/Europe and were than forced to sell again because of the collapse of the Niklkei which started in the '90's after their height in December 1989.

Capital is shifting around the world all the time and it's a déjà vu, or, as Napoleon said: l’histoire se répète.

It will be a long time before Dubai have cleaned and licked their wounds and it's like a perpetual motion* (the debts of Dubai) since the largest creditors are the banks in Dubai itself and Abu Dhabi; and WHO own all those banks ?

And, IF the UAE's Central Bank will guarantee the $ 60 Billion debts of Dubai.....who's guaranteeing/paying who, considering the UAE's Central Bank is de facto in the hands of the same families who control Dubai and the other 6 Emirates ?

* perpetual motion OR Boyle's Self Flowing Flask

I think there's only one way out for Dubai and that's the ruling family of Abu Dhabi since they're, by far, the richest Emirate, and also able (via UAE's Central Bank) to bail Dubai out.

That will most likely result in shifting the enormous powers some of those families have and end in sending Dubai's ruler back into his tent in the desert (so to speak).

Ah well, his father and grandfather didn't do anything else, playing around in the desert with a camel, hawk and four wives, didn't they ?

Crazy sandy world.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Searching the web I found this, illustrating the interconnected family ties in the UAE Central Bank and other banks and company structures......they're ALL connected:

"Sheikh Suroor Bin Mohammed Al Nahayan

His Excellency Sheikh Suroor Bin Mohammed Al Nahayan - Chamberlain of the Royal Amiri Courts and Member of the Royal Family of Abu Dhabi.

His Excellency Sheikh Suroor Bin Mohammed Al Nahayan was the Governor of UAE Central Bank for the last 10 years and a major shareholder of Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank. He is a member of the Royal Family and holds interest in Bank Alfalah Limited and United Bank Limited in Pakistan.

His Excellency Sheikh Suroor is the major shareholder of Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank, Abu Dhabi, UAE. Other interests include shares in joint stock companies as well as interest in commercial and real estate properties both in UAE and abroad. His Excellency Sheikh Suroor also owns the five star Hotel."

Sheikh Suroor is one of the major shareholders of Warid Telecom (takes pride in being backed by the Abu Dhabi Group, one of the largest groups in the Middle East and in Pakistan.)

from:

http://www.waridtel.com.bd/portal/page?_pa...;_schema=PORTAL

It leaves little doubt that the UAE families will back their own (family) interests first and see to the other hundreds/thousands of creditors later or not at all.

LaoPo

[AlexLah]

Supply and demand controls the price of oil, a

bingo!

Again you are wrong.

It's not my style to interfere with someone else's posts and comments but yours is very unfair since you're taking the sentence and reaction COMPLETELY out of context!

That's not Gentleman's alike and you are wrong!

The CORRECT and COMPLETE sentence, written by member Orion76, was this (and with which sentence and comment by Naam I completely agree):

Supply and demand controls the price of oil, and Dubai's oil revenues are negligible. The price of oil has little to do with Dubai's current problems.

bingo!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Global-Marke...93#entry3169893 Post 6

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Global-Marke...98#entry3169798 Post 5

Your behavior is childish and "not done" Mr. Alex Lah !

LaoPo

Lao I only wanted to tell that the price of oil is based on speculation, not on (real) demand and supply. I agree with Naam that current problems of Dubai has nothing to do with oil.

[Orion76]

Besides, the Chinese and Arabs aren't exactly close friends; they don't like each other.

Good thing the US and the Muslim world are so chummy, but I'm sure China wouldn't let friendliness get in the way of their energy needs

I don't think Dubai's oil is of as much interest to China as for example Iran's...

[LaoPo]

Lao I only wanted to tell that the price of oil is based on speculation, not on (real) demand and supply. I agree with Naam that current problems of Dubai has nothing to do with oil.

Admitting you were quoting out of the original context isn't easy for some, is it ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Besides, the Chinese and Arabs aren't exactly close friends; they don't like each other.

Good thing the US and the Muslim world are so chummy, but I'm sure China wouldn't let friendliness get in the way of their energy needs

I don't think Dubai's oil is of as much interest to China as for example Iran's...

Good point and I fully agree.

LaoPo