Staff Running Away With Money

[Topprofile]

We recently had a member of staff collect money from several of our clients and then ran away with it before turning over the money to the company.

At the police station we are informed that we need to get all the clients to come down to the police station to file report for the police to be able to proceed to catch the guy.

Meaning that if the clients (who feels they have paid already) don't want to go to the police station there is nothing we can do according to the police.

As the client still owes the company money, as we never received it and any receipt would be a fake made up by the member of staff, who did he steal from? The client or us? I guess it would be stealing from the company as the company surely is responsible for the staff, but is it reasonable for the police to ask us to make sure all the clients to come down to file a report? Wouldn't it be the police job to investigate and contact all the parties involved?

My feeling is that the police just want to make sure they get a piece of the cake before doing anything....

Any ideas?

[opalhort]

Here is what I would do:

Contact all clients, giving them their statement of account showing the pending payment to the company. If they have paid already request them to fax the receipt to you and ask if they know who collected the money.

Once you have the replies from your clients, and since you know who the collector (employee) is file charges against him/her.

The police may call in some clients as witnesses to identify the person who collected the money but the client won't be required to file charges.

Depending on the amounts involved I would suggest to hire a lawyer to handle this matter.

opalhort

[Topprofile]

Thanks for the reply.

We actually asked the police if a written statement from the clients would be enough instead of having them come to the station, which was according to the current police staff, not enough, they have to come to the station...

All clients know who collected the money but I doubt they want to get involved and go to the police...

I understand that we can't do anything without proper statements that money has been paid to the staff, but why would WE need to get the clients to the police station (unless it's because the police wants to make it difficult for us and so offering them a "gift" to speed things up..?)

We have actually been to the police station twice and both times the staff in question has failed to show up saying his lawyer told him not to come. Twice, the police has not written any reports of the incident.

I don't see why we would need a lawyer when we're dealing with theft, shouldn't the police do their job and pick the guy up for questioning or similar?

If someone steals something in the supermarket, you don't call a lawyer, you call the police, right? So what is the difference?

I don't know procedures of thai law but if someone steals money one would presume the police would investigate?

Thanks

Edited December 14, 2009 by Topprofile

[opalhort]

We have actually been to the police station twice and both times the staff in question has failed to show up saying his lawyer told him not to come.

Have you actually filed a formal criminal charge against your staff member?

With evidence that your clients have paid to him the police should be able to obtain an arrest warrent for him.

The tricky point is that he may claim that he has handed over the money to you but you claim otherwise.

Since he already has a lawyer it may be advisable for you to get one as well.

opalhort

[nakachalet]

topprofile

I don't know procedures of thai law but if someone steals money one would presume the police would investigate?

as a matter of fact....as much as i feel sorry that such incident happened to your company or to anyone else,

but your statement and attitudes....

yes i also realize that you are rightfully quite upset over what happened....

as far as i could gather from your statement so far.... there is nothing yet that you have done.... so far....

to initiate an investigation....

opalhort.... is quite correct.... you have not filed any complaint yet.... against any one.... right?

get someone other than yourself.... yes i also assume that you speak almost perfect thai.... to go with you to file a formal complaint.... to start the ball rolling.... so to speak.... and right away too, pls....

another interesting point.... you stated that the alleged money mishandling person already employed a lawyer....? to fight against your company's handling or mishandling an employee....?

it is quite interesting.... under normal circumstances.... an alleged thief.... would flee trying to disappear.... but here the person appeared to stand his/her ground and digged in to fight....

very interesting indeed....

nevertheless.... as oplhort suggested.... get a lawyer quickly.... and right away, pls.... afterwhich pls fill us in with particular and detail, so we might be educated as well.... and thx in advance.

if i misread or misinterpreted your statement.... my humble apology....

Edited December 14, 2009 by nakachalet

[ericthai]

Here is what I would do, tell your clients that they need to come to the police station to report this. If they do then you will consider they made the payment to the company, if they don't then they still have an outstanding payment to you. This way Im sure all of your clients will want to come to the station. If they give you a hard time tell them the police are saying you employee stole the money from the clients not from the company so they are still considered owing you money.

[Topprofile]

please see replies in bold.

topprofile

I don't know procedures of thai law but if someone steals money one would presume the police would investigate?

as a matter of fact....as much as i feel sorry that such incident happened to your company or to anyone else,

but your statement and attitudes.... - Yes? Is something wrong?

yes i also realize that you are rightfully quite upset over what happened.... - ofcourse

as far as i could gather from your statement so far.... there is nothing yet that you have done.... so far....

to initiate an investigation.... - well we have been to the police station twice and nothing has been written down on their part.. we have everything about the employee on paper with his id, residential address, contract with clients whos money he has stolen etc

opalhort.... is quite correct.... you have not filed any complaint yet.... against any one.... right? - No, because the police doesn't want to take our report even being there twice. First time we came we got the police guys private number to call him for next appointment. Next time we came everyone at the office were whispering "ah-this is xxx case" (xxx=name of the police). Still no report taken and the police said this will be difficult and we need to get all the clients to the station before doing anything. So NO - no complaint filed, but not because we didn't want to but because the police didn't want to take any report

get someone other than yourself.... yes i also assume that you speak almost perfect thai.... to go with you to file a formal complaint.... to start the ball rolling.... so to speak.... and right away too, pls.... - We have been 2 people both times at the station, one foreigner and one thai

another interesting point.... you stated that the alleged money mishandling person already employed a lawyer....? to fight against your company's handling or mishandling an employee....? - well I don't know. At the police station we called the former employee (he has of course been fired due to gross misconduct) and asked if he would turn up for the appointment (which he earlier on the day said he would) but now he said that his lawyer had advised him not to come to the police station. That is it... I don't even know if they guy has a lawyer of if he is just playing more games.

it is quite interesting.... under normal circumstances.... an alleged thief.... would flee trying to disappear.... but here the person appeared to stand his/her ground and digged in to fight.... - He is not fighting, he is just playing games and even asked what the name of the police we were talking to... we made a quick call to the social security office and apparently this guy was blacklisted. Should have called and checked before but he came on reference from another employee who has been crying since this happened...

very interesting indeed....

nevertheless.... as oplhort suggested.... get a lawyer quickly.... and right away, pls.... afterwhich pls fill us in with particular and detail, so we might be educated as well.... and thx in advance.

if i misread or misinterpreted your statement.... my humble apology....

ericthai - sadly I guess this is the only way to go... but I am just curious... why the police is giving out his private number, not taking a note/report even though we been there twice and saying that this will be so difficult. A quick phone call or visit to the clients would prove our point, that the staff has stolen the money that was supposed to be paid to the company. But now it is up to us to get the clients to come to the station with us.. just seems like the police wants us to do their job...

Today will call to all clients asking them for the receipt of the payments done and see if they got one and who has signed as receiver of the money. If no receipt has been given we have nothing to show the police and I really don't want to get in trouble with our clients as well... if the police would just call the client of visit them there would be no need for this...

Oh well...

Edited December 15, 2009 by Topprofile

[ericthai]

I understand, but again this is Thailand and when do you actually see the police want to do something if there is nothing in it for them.

I believe if you speak to your clients and explain what has happened and what the police require they may understand and assist you. I would be nice about the whole thing with your clients and explain to them how the police are claiming the money was stolen from them as misrepresentation of your former employee and the only way to action against this former employee is with their complaint, otherwise without their complaint then this means there was no payment made and you need them to make the payment.

I know it's a difficult position to be in, I do hope it was not too much money and I wish you all the best in recovering any of the money. Getting a lawyer I don't think will help in this situation and only cost you more money.

One of my friends had a similar thing happen a few years ago with the amount of 3 million baht, he paid a lawyer 500,000 baht with the lawyer claiming they will get the money back this that and everything. The guy that stole the money took off and the lawyer did nothing, only took his money.

Anyway good luck!!!

[Jonathanpattaya]

I wish you every success however, I am afraid that your chances in this case are minimal.

My view of the BiB is very jaundiced having never found them to be helpful.

[opalhort]

A few questions and points:

To OP:

Did your employee collect cash or cheques? Cheques can be traced; you'll need to get the cheque numbers from your clients!

If cash, do you have a system in place where you issue a receipt to your employee when he/she hands over the money to you? If not then you are probably out of luck with any criminal charges. This may be the reason why the police are not keen on accepting charges because you would have to have some sort of evidence.

As it looks now it is your word against your employee's without evidence from either party. From the point of view of your employee he/she is correct in not showing up at the police station. He/she is waiting to have an arrest warrent issued which won't be forthcoming without you being able to provide evidence of his/her wrongdoing.

If the amount involved is not substantial I would write the loss off to experience.

You may have better luck by filing civil charges against your employee (less evidence required!) but you would have to deposit a certain percentage of your claim with the court first. If the civil court rules against your employee you could use this ruling to file criminal charges in the future.

opalhort

[Topprofile]

Ericthai - Actually, we have spoken to all clients today and they have all been issued "cash receipts" without company letter head and signed by the former employee. All clients have agreed to help with whatever they can, so all good on this point. So thankfully we don't have to get into arguments with clients and having issues with them and losing business over it. They all actually said it was a little bit suspicious the way he acted and why it was in such a rush to collect money and why the receipts were without lettterhead and signed by him...

Now, we are just going to collect these cash receipts from the clients and off we go to the police station again to see if we have better luck..

Jonathanpattaya - I hear you! I had another issue a couple of years ago with a forged check. The police didn't want to do anything and the lawyer we used was useless and nothing came out of it... I didn't pay the lawyer either so didn't lose out more than the check...

Opalhort - the employee collected cash and has issued his own receipts to the clients. He has never returned to the office since which all other employees can vouch for and there are no deposits into our account, so don't know how he will be able to claim we got the money.

I am still going the police route as I can't see why we wouldn't be able to do this.. The guy stole money from the company and no lawyer should be needed nor a civil case. If the police would just call the clients they would have confirmed a lot already. But it seems justice in this country is only for those with money and who are willing to pay up in front to get it...

Thanks for all replies!

[ericthai]

So glad to hear you clients are willing to help, it always scary when in a position like that as you don't know how they are going to react. I do hope you get better support from the police this time. Wish you all the best!!!

[TerryLH]

"we made a quick call to the social security office and apparently this guy was blacklisted."

This has made me curious.

Why did you initiate a call to social security?

For what would soc sec 'blacklist' someone?

Hope all this works out well for you.

Terry

[2008bangkok]

i would say that if your employee on that day was collecting money on your behalf then he would be stealing from you as the clients have rightly paid the company representative the money they owed, if on the other hand the employee just went and asked your clients to pay him without the company knowledge then he would be stealing from them.

[Yamantaka]

We had a representative from the electric company in Phuket come to our office with their collection book and wearing their identification badge around his neck. We paid him and got a stamped signed receipt. A couple weeks later we got an overdue notice so we went to the electric company office and showed them the receipt. They told us that the employee had been fired before the date we had paid and had never turned in the money so we had to pay the bill or the electricity would be turned off. We went to the police who took a report but nothing ever came of it.

[Topprofile]

"we made a quick call to the social security office and apparently this guy was blacklisted."

This has made me curious.

Why did you initiate a call to social security?

For what would soc sec 'blacklist' someone?

Hope all this works out well for you.

Terry

Terry,

We cancelled his social security fund once he was fired and the social security staff checked his previous record and told us he was blacklisted as apparently his work record showed that he was not staying at one place very long before getting fired... A simple check with previous workplaces would probably have spared us all this trouble....

Thanks

[Topprofile]

i would say that if your employee on that day was collecting money on your behalf then he would be stealing from you as the clients have rightly paid the company representative the money they owed, if on the other hand the employee just went and asked your clients to pay him without the company knowledge then he would be stealing from them.

Well payment was due as work had been done for the clients, otherwise they would surely not have paid anything...

So it would, as I thought, be stealing from us...

[Topprofile]

We had a representative from the electric company in Phuket come to our office with their collection book and wearing their identification badge around his neck. We paid him and got a stamped signed receipt. A couple weeks later we got an overdue notice so we went to the electric company office and showed them the receipt. They told us that the employee had been fired before the date we had paid and had never turned in the money so we had to pay the bill or the electricity would be turned off. We went to the police who took a report but nothing ever came of it.

Why am I not surprised... Really, how difficult would it be to find this guy?? Surely the electric office has his personal file and id number...

Hopefully you had a very low electricity bill...

[raro]

We had a representative from the electric company in Phuket come to our office with their collection book and wearing their identification badge around his neck. We paid him and got a stamped signed receipt. A couple weeks later we got an overdue notice so we went to the electric company office and showed them the receipt. They told us that the employee had been fired before the date we had paid and had never turned in the money so we had to pay the bill or the electricity would be turned off. We went to the police who took a report but nothing ever came of it.

Why am I not surprised... Really, how difficult would it be to find this guy?? Surely the electric office has his personal file and id number...

Hopefully you had a very low electricity bill...

If a client makes a payment to an apparent supplier representative, the payment is done and the client is out of the loop. If the representative pockets the money it is stealing from the employer.

You paid your electricity bill in good faith, so the problem is with the Garn Fai Faa...but since they can flick the switch they can make it your problem again...TIT

I wasn't aware of the soc sec blacklist. Very good information, thanks!

[Topprofile]

After 3 times to the police station and getting no response we went to see the superintendent on the second floor.

Took us 15 minutes with him and the report were being written, and they police man who has seen us 3 times got the evil eye from his boss...

It says on a big blue sign (in thai) that if you're not happy with the response from the police you should go see the boss upstairs, which we did, and which apparently was the right move.

Just good to know if someone has a problem filing a report or dealing with a lazy police like we did... go see the superintendent...

[raro]

Just good to know if someone has a problem filing a report or dealing with a lazy police like we did... go see the superintendent...

this applies to any organization I could think of...met CEOs and VPs of Hutch, TT&T, Bank of Asia, Ayutthaya insurance etc in person for exactly this reason.

[David006]

We had a representative from the electric company in Phuket come to our office with their collection book and wearing their identification badge around his neck. We paid him and got a stamped signed receipt. A couple weeks later we got an overdue notice so we went to the electric company office and showed them the receipt. They told us that the employee had been fired before the date we had paid and had never turned in the money so we had to pay the bill or the electricity would be turned off. We went to the police who took a report but nothing ever came of it.

Oh dear..same thing happened to us in Trang province..electric company said exacatly the same thing..there is a note on the wall of the electric company that states effectively that "payments must only be paid at their offices or representatives' "

office" ...seems this happens a lot TIT

[junkofdavid2]

the social security staff checked his previous record and told us he was blacklisted as apparently his work record showed that he was not staying at one place very long before getting fired...

This indicates that he's already an "expert" with doing what he did to you, and already knows how to deal with/evade the police and "play games" skillfully.

It would be unwise to continue without a (competent) lawyer, even if you've already talked to the police superintendent.

[skippybangkok]

After 3 times to the police station and getting no response we went to see the superintendent on the second floor.

Took us 15 minutes with him and the report were being written, and they police man who has seen us 3 times got the evil eye from his boss...

It says on a big blue sign (in thai) that if you're not happy with the response from the police you should go see the boss upstairs, which we did, and which apparently was the right move.

Just good to know if someone has a problem filing a report or dealing with a lazy police like we did... go see the superintendent...

From my experience the cops don't care and will do their best no to take up your case unless your have 1) a friend there (which we had) or 2) they are looking for and you are willing to provide some "support". ( lets face it, often cops have to buy heir own guns and bullets ).

We had one girl steal $1000 and ran off ........... and now she is oh so sorry and has a 3 year jail sentence (she is in Klong Prem Prison now )

Another guy swindled us for the same amount, and has also a criminal case against him - most likely 7 year sentence when he gets caught.

Upside - although the above harsh, we have had no more thefts anymore as staff know they will be prosecuted.

Edited January 8, 2010 by skippybangkok

[stiggy]

Ill be the first to ask...how much was taken?