How To Sue A University?

[Lukelady]

I guess my issue is very rare so I can't find a similar posting or forum topic. I would like to know some steps, details, experiences and the odds about taking legal actions against a Thai university. It's considered widely a prestigeous, highly respected and elite-filled institute so that no one around me supports this idea about taking any legal actions against it. However, it's like a fish bone stuck at the throat if I don't do something about it and let me pay for others' mistakes.

The critical issue is about mis-informing and worse, no informing, of important issues about change of tuition which had affected students' decision-making.

It's an international program, and the university charged the same rate as a British university. I'm one of the 30% (average from 3 years) students who needed more semesters than the shortest allowed study time. And you pay for each extended semester. In one semester, they found out that they short charged us almost 50% of the fee, but they didn't inform me for almost 4 weeks. I found out about the increase by myself by accident, and the difference of fee was more than US$2,000.

To amend and to cover up the terrible admin mistakes, we were advised to go around and around in the maze that became the worse nightmare in my entire life. I was struggling to comprehend the loop holes the Thai admin needed us to go through. (They couldn't reveal all info either because more problems would occur.) But whenever I turned around there were always a new rule, different offices, issues of deadline of applying for this (grant) and that (permission), let along some deeply distrust issues between offices and individuals and the upset academic who were dragged into the mass.

I was already very depressed because of the mental burden from the process of writing the thesis. This incident just threw me into a tsunami of red tapes, denials, defense, neglect and so on, and it crashed me. I was like a yo-yo between offices for 2 weeks trying to find a way out for myself, but was still lost and neglected at the very end. At one point, I was blamed and threatened because I went to the registration office to clarify my owed amount of tuition. This is unheard of. This also showed how some (Thai) systems can get so entangled that the basic reasons and logic are condemned. Remember this is an academic institute and people's basic training is about logic and giving reasons.

Pardon for my lengthy account of what had happened. Does anyone know if any legal actions can be taken to at least make someone accountable for their mistakes. I was and still am concerned that taking legal actions will only just make things much worse since the problems which were once swept under the carpet will be exposed and will tirgger more red tapes, denials, defense and neglect. But I can't worry about others' problems since I was treated horribly and my rights were stamped to flat.

Any input of information and suggestions will be highly appreciated.

(I can sign my name in person-to-person correspondence)

[nicolas18]

If this is the Uni I'm thinking about, forget it. Most of the Thai elite comes from that University and no judge would ever rule against that University, especially in favor of a foreigner. That would be political suicide for him.

[simon43]

I agree with Nicolas18. If it's the university that we think it is, then I also attended an international program at the same university. Yes, there were many administrative errors concerning fees and getting the neccessary documents and receipts - with all errors being the fault of the university, not me. Could I take action or complain? No!

Three words sum up the situation - Loss of Face.

There is no way that you could win in a situation like this, and getting stressed out about it is the worst thing you can do. It sounds to me like you are a fairly recent visitor to Thailand and are not used to the 'mai bpen rai' attitude and in-house bickerings and jealousy between different departments and offices.

I would advise you to let it go and not to pursue it. It will cause you more stress to do so.

What's the situation with your study? Have you completed it, abandoned it?, postponed it? PM me if you want

Simon

[LaoPo]

..The super frustrating clash experience between East and West...and a fine example how the Elite -still- controls the country

The OP's only chance (if there will be any) is a nice chat in the lobby of a Singapore or Hong Kong hotel with a reporter of a newspaper or magazine from outside the LOS, once he/she is finished on this Uni...and tell the story.

LaoPo

[thai3]

I believe this University is ranked 340th in the world and as it is in Thailand this sort of incompetence is only to be expected. Thai's seem to have a very inflated view of their 'top' two universities, on the world stage they are underachievers.

[noise]

If this is the Uni I'm thinking about, forget it. Most of the Thai elite comes from that University and no judge would ever rule against that University, especially in favor of a foreigner. That would be political suicide for him.

I am not sure if I agree with the "political suicide". But I do agree with the "forget it" . You spelled out just a sense of the problems you had and frustration from never getting all the information and complete answers.

Why forget it? Well, I could not tell what your case would be. Did you just end up having to pay more than you anticipated (as did others)? If so, doesn't seem like much of a legal issue and more of a management issue. If only you out of how ever many were in your specific class/group/program had to pay more, then maybe and only maybe you would have a case. You would have to prove it was intentional and not just an oversight or misapplication of some criteria that could be explained away.

You could easily file suit. BUT, from your description of the problems your experienced, you probably have a nervous breakdown before you could gather enough evidence to prove your case. And you would spend a lot of money on lawyers fees. Probably for naught.

[Kitsch22]

Leaving aside the issues of practicability already raised in this thread:

1. Are you alleging breach of contract? If so, are you able to identify clearly in one or more documents the term or terms of the contract which you claim to have been breached?

2. Are you alleging negligence? If so, are you able to identify clearly the precise elements of the duty of care which you say the University owed to you and failed to discharge?

3. What is the amount of your claim? From what you say it sounds like USD 2000 (GBP 1,250 approx). That appears to have been the amount of the increase, the validity of or justification for which you challenge. Did you pay the money and, if so, did you lodge a formal written protest at or before the time of payment?

4. Taking a view as detached as you possibly can, do you think that there is any possibility that some or all of these difficulties could be the result of a bona fide misunderstanding between you on the one hand and the University on the other hand?

[caf]

..The super frustrating clash experience between East and West...and a fine example how the Elite -still- controls the country

The OP's only chance (if there will be any) is a nice chat in the lobby of a Singapore or Hong Kong hotel with a reporter of a newspaper or magazine from outside the LOS, once he/she is finished on this Uni...and tell the story.

LaoPo

Probably not a big enough story but try Andrew Drummond. He is a real terrier when he gets his teeth into issues like these. Laopo is absolutely right that anything involving the elite is difficult to challenge - by Thais or farang.

[toptuan]

Even in a more clear-cut case of violation of contract, several university professors where I work were not paid for up to three months, due to clerical ineptitude. Rather than simply working out the kinks and getting the professors paid, the university covered for the clerks so no one would lose face. One disheartened professor quit, and the other continues to borrow from friends while the red tape and diversions continue to pile up, just as in the OP's case.

To me, a clear and easy case for suing a university. But does anyone think of that route there? No way, due to the reasons already stated above--you can't win against university elites who demand the loyalty of local law enforcement and judges.

Thailand is not run by a legal code--it is run by those who hold power by virtue of social position and status. You are at their mercy. It's something one has to reconcile themselves to before you can work and function here with a reasonable amount of satisfaction and sanity.

[dave111223]

If they requested you pay $2000 more than you thought you were supposed to, why didn't you address the issue at the time (before giving them the money), instead of trying to sue to get the money back? Or am i missing something?

[ronz28]

I think you should cut your losses and not think about a law suit. They hold all the cards and if they refuse to fix it ...that's where it all ends. You could try again to seek justice through another avenue in their University bureaucracy but they are the judge and jury.

I am not sure I understand the details but all the fees should be tied to published fee schedules that you should have been able to verify and if they undercharged you by their mistake its your problem anyway because its set by rule and you should have known you were undercharged based on the published fee schedule. I suppose they did their own internal audit after the fact and found the error that they need to recover it from you. If you can prove up that per the published fee schedule that you don't owe them any thing then I would certainly try to get them to change their minds on this.

[thunder30101]

You didnt learn much about thailand from going to university here I see, no you will not get any money back or satisfaction from the school or courts. My only question has to be why would anyone pay western uni rates for a thai school ???

[moe666]

Find a lawyer and see what you options are and do you have deep pockets.

[Dakhar]

You didnt learn much about thailand from going to university here I see, no you will not get any money back or satisfaction from the school or courts. My only question has to be why would anyone pay western uni rates for a thai school ???

This same experience one would have to indure in the states, 20 years back.

Welcome to Thailand

My advice is pretend there is no such thing as computers and logic.... you will function much better.

[JR Texas]

I am surprised that after all of the warnings about corruption in Thailand people still come here to study and open businesses, etc.

I am a semi-retired professor with lots of experience teaching at universities in Thailand.

I can tell you that not one of my experiences has bee a good one.

I can tell you horror stories about professors being cheated by administrators.

I am not talking about students..........professors!

You don't stand a chance at a lawsuit.........[names deleted - MiG16]

The best you can do is to warn people so that they don't make the same mistake (also register a complaint at your embassy).

There are outstanding universities in the region in Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and Malaysia.

China has some great universities (and I have taught there too).

I have actually taught all over the planet...........the only place I have been cheated (repeatedly) was in Thailand.

There is no way I would ever accept a teaching post in Thailand.

There is no way I would ever recommend any university in Thailand to a foreign student wanting to study abroad.

[thaipod]

My wife has just gone through a simular situation with one of the leading universities .

She signed up and paid around 90000 for a course and realised due to family / work committments that she could not handle it and informed the administration that she wanted to withdraw which there was a time line and produced documents stating the reason of pulling out on the time line required .

It,s been 6 months of of contacting the uni and no refund and now believe that the whole issue is a waste of time will have to write it off .

To try and fight for your money with a uni will be difficult and to sue will be costly and for the thai court system this could take years

[caf]

I am surprised that after all of the warnings about corruption in Thailand people still come here to study and open businesses, etc.

I am a semi-retired professor with lots of experience teaching at universities in Thailand.

I can tell you that not one of my experiences has bee a good one.

I can tell you horror stories about professors being cheated by administrators.

I am not talking about students..........professors!

You don't stand a chance at a lawsuit.........[deleted - MiG16]

The best you can do is to warn people so that they don't make the same mistake (also register a complaint at your embassy).

There are outstanding universities in the region in Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and Malaysia.

China has some great universities (and I have taught there too).

I have actually taught all over the planet...........the only place I have been cheated (repeatedly) was in Thailand.

There is no way I would ever accept a teaching post in Thailand.

There is no way I would ever recommend any university in Thailand to a foreign student wanting to study abroad.

You mention that you are semi retired and live in Thailand. Are you still teaching then? You say you have lots of exerience teaching here but go on to say you would ever accept a taeching post in Thailand.

[JR Texas]

You mention that you are semi retired and live in Thailand. Are you still teaching then? You say you have lots of exerience teaching here but go on to say you would ever accept a taeching post in Thailand.

I have no idea why that matters one way or another.

No, I am not teaching (I prefer not to state what I do now or who I work for).

No, I would never accept a teaching post in Thailand again.

And I would never recommend any Thai university to a foreign student (certainly not as a first choice).

Why? Total corruption..........poor academic environment...........lack of global competitiveness.

The universities n Thailand are playgrounds...........not serious academic institutions.....they exist to generate income for administrators.

Having said that, I should add an exception: If you are from a developing country and want to become a nurse or dentist, I think you can get good training in Thailand.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

Others will have different opinions.

[BangkokJazz]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

[Credo]

I'd get a lawyer and see what the best course of action is. The idea of bad press doesn't sit well with a lot of people and that alone may result in a quick resolution to the problem.

[hhgz]

"In one semester, they found out that they short charged us almost 50% of the fee...and the difference of fee was more than US$2,000."

So, you are being forced to pay the correct price, and you're upset about it.

"I was already very depressed because of the mental burden from the process of writing the thesis. This incident just threw me into a tsunami of red tapes, denials, defense, neglect and so on, and it crashed me."

I'm so sorry for your emotional trauma. However, if it only takes $2000 to have you crash and burn emotionally, you weren't too steady to begin with, and you mentioned that.

"(I can sign my name in person-to-person correspondence)"

As all of us TVers can.

[JR Texas]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

Music........really? I only know about the science side of things.

So we have at least three positive fields of study:

Music

Dentistry

Nursing

I would add medical doctor to the list but only for those who did subsequent training abroad.

You do, in fact, have some top quality medical doctors in Thailand........many Thai doctors.........who did their initial training in Thailand and then studied abroad for more advanced training........then returned.

Still........quality of education is one thing, corruption is another.

I remember a group of foreign students visiting a university I was at several years ago (in Thailand). They were part of an education exchange agreement.

Short story: They were cheated by the top administrator. Needless to say, they returned to their university and had nothing good to report about Thailand.

At the same university a visiting professor from a well-known university in the UK told me about how the university cheated her. I told her about how they had just cheated me. I think we laughed about and said something like TIT.

It wasn't the money. It was the principle. And now, of course, both of us have nothing positive to say about the education system in Thailand (for some reason they never think about consequences of bad behavior).

Just one snapshot........there are many stories like this.

I would like to add one more thing: There are many good and decent Thai professors..........most work hard and make very little money.

The people that seem to be most involved in the corruption are the administrators.

[kensingto]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

The people that seem to be most involved in the corruption are the administrators.

I totally agreed. I was graduated from a Thai leading university in International Program. Before examination, my classmate would pay a sum of money to the administrator to take out the paper before taking the exam. Furthermore, he paid someone in the registration office to change his grade.

[MrHammer]

Is there some rule as to not name the university? It's obviously the one next to Siam square no?

I can only say that this university seems to have big problems with communicating to foreign students. Try Thammasat's international program. Great office and admin.

[caf]

You mention that you are semi retired and live in Thailand. Are you still teaching then? You say you have lots of exerience teaching here but go on to say you would ever accept a taeching post in Thailand.

I have no idea why that matters one way or another.

No, I am not teaching (I prefer not to state what I do now or who I work for).

No, I would never accept a teaching post in Thailand again.

And I would never recommend any Thai university to a foreign student (certainly not as a first choice).

Why? Total corruption..........poor academic environment...........lack of global competitiveness.

The universities n Thailand are playgrounds...........not serious academic institutions.....they exist to generate income for administrators.

Having said that, I should add an exception: If you are from a developing country and want to become a nurse or dentist, I think you can get good training in Thailand.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

Others will have different opinions.

Your original post seemed a little contradictory.

"Although I am now semi-retired but not in teaching anymore; having had several years teaching in Thailand I would never do so again or recommend Thai universities" may have been less contradictory and easier to understand.

I agree with many of your points though I would perhaps not put them so bitterly.

[sharecropper]

Is there some rule as to not name the university? It's obviously the one next to Siam square no?

I can only say that this university seems to have big problems with communicating to foreign students. Try Thammasat's international program. Great office and admin.

That's the silly thing about being too fearful to name things, I thought he WAS talking about Thammasat!

[Lukelady]

Thank you all for taking time and responding to this topic. I'll make a summary of the day, add some info to answer the questions that were raised. Hope latter viewers will get something useful and constructive from this thread.

I've seen my Thai friends calling his/her "influential" friends when they run into difficult problems, while in the country where I am from, we have customer service center, student affair center, hotlines or even media call-ins. With the latter, we look at the rules, written documents, check reasons, discuss, debate and negotiate and reach a conclusion, but with the former, it always got the sense of super importance, tension, fragility and hush-hush for issues like the police came to a restaurant asking for protection fee, custom sharks holding on live animals for more money, just to give some examples.

The options for me are several. I guess instead of saying "taking legal actions", "making it public, official and/or legal" should be more proper. Some of the options were already mentioned like the embassy and media exposure. Make a case at the embassy will be the easiest comparing to others and filing a lawsuit.

The mentioned US$2,000 (rounded, same below) was the last straw. Prior investment on previous semesters was US$18,000, excluding livingn expense. It was a matter of principle indeed. People do get away with killing and screwing others, but would you let others do this to you? And they were the teachers who talked about accountability and criticised the wrong doings in Thailand, other societies and the world during classes. This is the question at the center, my central question.

It's a tri-semester program, and the published fee only mentioned the first three semesters. All others were announced in email correspondence. Admin head emailed about rule A and fee was US$1,800, and later Admin B announced that rules were different and Admin C announced the fee should be $3,800. The situation was actually at least double complicated because the issue of waiving some fee was tied to the time of oral examination of theses. If the admins were confused, how we foreigners were expected to know in advance and make preparation for payment and for oral examination?

I should save these for the formal meeting with officials or for the court. Yes to Mr/Ms Noise, it's obviously a managment issue, and oversight, not against me only, but I was constantly neglected for unknown reasons. How things got mis-managed and mis-applied, I really don't know since they hadn't demonstrated basic reliability of distributing information, and toward the end, they talked less. Presumably busy having meetings after meetings, (problems bocame monsters and devouring black-holes) while students' time kept slipping away.

Thank you all again, esp. Mr/Mrs Noise and KITSCH. If you have specific questions, you may write mail (PM) to me.

Have a good day.

[Lukelady]

Is there some rule as to not name the university? It's obviously the one next to Siam square no?

I can only say that this university seems to have big problems with communicating to foreign students. Try Thammasat's international program. Great office and admin.

That's the silly thing about being too fearful to name things, I thought he WAS talking about Thammasat!

My apologies. Please understand that this could be a legal case, therefore, any naming may result in defamation as this is a public board. (OP: Lukelady)

[toptuan]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

After enduring graduation ceremonies for the 7th time, accompanied by the university's orchestra, I would say, no. Definitely not a musician.

[docholiday123]

Tuition turned out to be <10% more than they said so now you are writing 2000 word essays to say what could be said in 50 words - typical of the type of student who attends these elite universities. Everything is about "principles" but its really just loving the sound of your own voice. Now you have imagined yourself in some kind of "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" war with the university and are going to sue them? 55555