Do Posters On Tv Forums Retain Copyright To Posts ?

[jazzbo]

from Thailand Copyright, Act, 09/12/1994 - 2537

Section 32. An act against a copyright work under this Act of another person which does not conflict with normal exploitation of the copyright work by the owner of copyright and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate rights of the owner of copyright shall not be deemed an infringement of copyright.

Subject to the provision in the first paragraph, the following acts in relation to a copyright work shall not be deemed an infringement of copyright:

(1) research or study of the work which is not for profit;

(2) use for personal benefit or for the benefit of the user and his family members or close relatives;

(3) comment, criticism or introduction of the work with an acknowledgment of the ownership of copyright in such work;

(4) reporting of news through mass media with an acknowledgment of the ownership of copyright in such work;

(5) reproduction, adaptation, exhibition or display for the benefit of judicial proceedings or administrative proceedings by authorized officials or for reporting the result of such proceedings;

(6) reproduction, adaptation, exhibition or display by a teacher for the benefit of his teaching provided that the act is not for profit;

(7) reproduction, adaptation in part of a work or abridgment or making a summary by a teacher or an educational institution so as to distribute or sell to students in a class or in an educational institution provided that the act is not for profit;

(8) use of the work as part of questions and answers in an examination.

Of course then you have the problem of under which country's Copyright Law ThaiVisa.com is beholden....

I often post photos on in the Photography thread on TV, does this give TV automatic right to reprint in there newspaper without permission?? and to which extent do we give up our copyrights by posting stuff on TV? As per Item 22. of the Member Agreement, you already have agreed that you will not post any copyrighted material and such wording makes no distinction as to whether the Copyrighted material is yours or belongs to someone else.

[jazzbo]

Again, thanks for responding ! That suggestion would also involve revealing our "real name," I'm afraid.

In setting up a website or blog and having a 'Visit my Website' on your TV Profile you would not have to divulge your "real name" if you do not so choose... my 'real name' does not appear on my website.

[orang37]

Again, thanks for responding ! That suggestion would also involve revealing our "real name," I'm afraid.

In setting up a website or blog and having a 'Visit my Website' on your TV Profile you would not have to divulge your "real name" if you do not so choose... my 'real name' does not appear on my website.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jazzbo,

Not to keep "swarming you" on this topic, but my impression is that without a clear statement in the body of each instance of work for which you claim copyright, (usually at the start of the work) of the real name of the writer, and an assertion of copyright in the usual form, you would be in some kind of "indeterminate" status in the law (unless, perhaps, you had somehow legally registered the "nom de plume" as a legal name or entity ?).

Obviously, we reveal our ignorance of the law here : can a web-site, per se, assert copyright over all material on it without mention of the owner's, or content-authors, real names ?

thanks for your patience, ~o:37;

[LivinLOS]

posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

Erm.. Its NOT theft.. The owner is not deprived of the original.. Thats theft !!

Considering people are debating copyright infringement you would think the understanding of the right to copy and how it differs from 'theft' would be a little higher.

Theres a reason its called copyright infringement.. Because it ISNT theft !!

[MarkBKK]

You´re very cute when you´re angry.

Happy New Year Señor Polecat! (And Mrs Polecat and Polecat Jnr)

[MarkBKK]

Actually, it's not my opinion at all. If you knew anything about the subject, or did any research at all, you would realise that it was the law in most countries. I really can't be bothered to educate you on the subject, after all, I'm not being paid to do so.

And of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be. Gosh, ''authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised'' ... you really never have worked in the media, have you? That's why writers write ... just to see their name in print. Not to pay the mortgage. No, of course not. That's why publishers publish the words they've paid someone to write and to surrender their copyright to. Not to make money ... maybe for some altruistic reason like saving the planet, or letting you steal their property.

Yeah, right.

Silly billy.

Wow. That's arrogant! A polite request to see if you can back up your opinions with a citation leads to a name calling ( silly Billy) and an enlarged argument about wholesale theft of written works. Mark you seem to be perceiving the other guys here as disrespecting the rights of aothors. They aren't Google Books you know. They are quoting other posters and writers and you can't persuade them it's wrong by an argument from

authority. Mossfinn has spotted your fallacy, can you do more than state 'cos I said so?'

No, it's boredom. You can quote (fair use, etc.) but wasn't simply copying huge tracts of work what was being discussed? You can't do that (as a following post points out, even under Thai law (and there's some debate over the interpretation and maybe even translation) of point (4).

[MarkBKK]

My point was that recycled articles help to raise the profile of individual writers outside of their usual environment, the more air time, the greater the masses receive the word, which can lead to greater fame, or in certain cases notoriety, if it puts more bums on seats, or page turners and as their mortgage is already being paid, it might, just might lead to a bigger house

And there you display your total lack of understanding of the law.

I thank you.

[MarkBKK]

posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

Erm.. Its NOT theft.. The owner is not deprived of the original.. Thats theft !!

Considering people are debating copyright infringement you would think the understanding of the right to copy and how it differs from 'theft' would be a little higher.

Theres a reason its called copyright infringement.. Because it ISNT theft !!

Infringement. Theft. Stealing. We're not talking ''personal use'' here ...

Oh whatever ...

[jazzbo]

From Thailand Copyright Act:

8. (1) in the case of an unpublished work, the author must be a Thai national or reside in Thailand or be a national of or reside in a country which is party to the convention for the protection of copyright to which Thailand is party provided that residence must be permanent or that most of the time must be spent on the creation of the work;

9. Copyright in a work created by an author in the course of employment shall vest in the author unless otherwise agreed in writing, provided that the employer shall be entitled to communicate such work to the public in accordance with the purpose of the employment.

10. Copyright in a work created on a commission shall vest in the employer unless the author and the employer have agreed otherwise.

So at least in Thailand, you and your 'employer' couild cut a deal such that only the 'employer's' name appears as the copyright holder.

[alant]

phew!

now for the layman...

what about photos as previously asked?

such images are usually subject to copyright are they not?

are you allowed to post them or not? (within the rules as stated)

[jazzbo]

You gents are asking for simple answers to some difficult questions particularly as it is not certain where is the prevailing domicile for ThaiVisa.com or the actual server location -- that said, if you are interested in maintaining 100% copyright control on your photographs at least as far as ThaiVisa.com and its partners are concerned, I would not post them as you have already agreed as Item 22. in your Membersahip agreement that you will not post any copyrighted materials; and that clause makes no distinction as to whether you are posting someone else's photographs or your own; therefore, TV could claim '... well they must not be copyrighted materials / photographs or else you would not have posted them,' and if you DO post them they could interpret that as in fact a waiver...

So if the question is: Can I post my written materials and / or photographs on TV.com and still maintain 100% control of copyright privileges on those materials, I would say that the answer is No. ... this all IMHO as is all advice on TV.com. My suggestion again is to set up the 'View My Website' Option on your profile page and then make acceptable references to your site in the e.g. Chiang Mai Forum.

Edited January 2, 2010 by jazzbo

[Kan Win]

Very interesting question and leads me to another related question what about photos?

I often post photos on in the Photography thread on TV, does this give TV automatic right to reprint in there newspaper without permission??

and to which extent do we give up our copyrights by posting stuff on TV?

Hi 'monkfish',

I have no problems with folks using me photos as on my web-site Pbase.com they Kan pinch them from there which they have done in the past.

I did have some members of ThaiVisa asking me if they could use my photo, I replied, 'welcome' please use them for FREE, but just add that these photos are from 'win13' or Kan Win . At least they did ask first.

All of my photos are only good for the Web, originals for printing are with me, so resize your works of art and only post what you allow to be used else where.

Sawadee

P.S. Just google win13, thats me on top

[lordsux]

If you are worried about thavisa or it's partners using your images otherplace than on this forum then simply host them on a 3rd party server (picassa, pbase, flickr ect.) and link to the images instead of uploading to TV's server. (This of course does not mean that if you do upload your images to thaivisa's server that TV has the right to use your copyrighted material as they see fit.) A seperate paragraph in the TOS would be needed before TV could do that.

When hosting on a 3rd party server and linking to the image, thaivisa will only be able to copy/use the actual link you post and not the actual image. Any use of the linked image in any way by TV and its partners i.e. The Nation without obtaining permission or purchasing a license from the copyright holder would be deemed as copyright infringement.

Maybe a re-wording of the current TOS is needed regarding copyrighted material, otherwise anyone that uploads an image that they have taken to the forum will in fact be breaking the current TOS.

Edited January 2, 2010 by lordsux

[monkfish]

Hi KanWin and Lordsux,

Thanks for your inputs, its actually something I hadn't considered before.

anyway I won't hijack this thread but people posting pictures in Photo$Arts should be made clear of the legal implications.

Me thinks

[jazzbo]

Forum rules:

14) Not to place phone numbers, emails, company names or web addresses in signatures.

Web addresses to non-commercial sites or blogs may be posted in a member's profile page.

... and from PBase.com itself:

All images are copyright of their owners.

PBase is a registered trademark of PBase.com LLC

All other content © 1999-2007, PBase.com LLC. All rights reserved.

Any images uploaded by a user remain the property of that user or whatever party holds the copyright.

By uploading images, a user does not surrender his/her copyright or ownership of the images.

Edited January 2, 2010 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

(This of course does not mean that if you do upload your images to thaivisa's server that TV has the right to use your copyrighted material as they see fit.)

From page ThaiVisa.com (not the Forum Home Page):

Thailand Expat Forum | © 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 Thai Visa - thaivisa.com All rights reserved.

So I guess they do so see fit... (no 2010?)

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup,

fyi : We have e-mailed Khun George (root admin), and asked that someone in the administration of TV reply on this thread to the issues being raised here, and reply specifically on the possible rights of the Nation newspaper to reprint/re-use.

best, ~o:37;

p.s. again, thanks to Khun Jazzbo for as solid legal input as is possible given what we know and don't know

[wayfarer108]

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

That seems to be the opinion of most posters on Thai Visa.

And of course it is completely wrong. The exact opposite of reality, in fact.

Apart from the very, very few sources of material (words, images, etc) that explicitly give permission for their material to be copied/re-used/re-published, or sources such as The Nation (with which Thai Visa has an arrangement), and ignoring ''fair use'' for the moment, then no amount of ''sourcing'' or ''crediting'' will get you around the fact that posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

Sorry but fair use covers far more than that. Look it up

[MarkBKK]

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

That seems to be the opinion of most posters on Thai Visa.

And of course it is completely wrong. The exact opposite of reality, in fact.

Apart from the very, very few sources of material (words, images, etc) that explicitly give permission for their material to be copied/re-used/re-published, or sources such as The Nation (with which Thai Visa has an arrangement), and ignoring ''fair use'' for the moment, then no amount of ''sourcing'' or ''crediting'' will get you around the fact that posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

Sorry but fair use covers far more than that. Look it up

Do try reading the post, mate

(OK, here's a clue ''It covers things like ...'', clearly implying that it covers more than that. D'oh!)

Edited January 3, 2010 by MarkBKK

[MarkBKK]

posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

Erm.. Its NOT theft.. The owner is not deprived of the original.. Thats theft !!

Considering people are debating copyright infringement you would think the understanding of the right to copy and how it differs from 'theft' would be a little higher.

Theres a reason its called copyright infringement.. Because it ISNT theft !!

Jeez ... I must be bored. Try Googling ''FACT''. (It stands for Federation Against Copyright Theft, BTW.) In the UK, copyright infringement has been described by the government as ''civil theft'', ie ''theft''. Another word for theft (altogether now, including you lot at the back) is ... stealing.

[MarkBKK]

So at least in Thailand, you and your 'employer' couild cut a deal such that only the 'employer's' name appears as the copyright holder.

Pretty much standard practice in many, if not most parts of the European and US media, isn't it? It's not so much ''cutting a deal'', it's more ''I'll pay you to write this and I own the copyright.''

[jazzbo]

When I said 'employer', I meant that the the employer could be one's assumed name.

What is 'Fair Use'? from US Copyright Act

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A (Rights of Authors) , the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work

in any particular case

is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

So at least under US Copyright Law there is no clear cut definition as to what is and what is not 'Fair Use'.

Edited January 3, 2010 by jazzbo

[taffylee]

Daft question.... so expect daft reply

[jazzbo]

Excerpt from the classic art auction scene from the screenplay of Alfred Hitchcock's North by Northwest:

Thornhill (Cary Grant): How do we know it's not a fake? It looks like a fake.

Matronly Art Patron: One thing we know. You're no fake. You're a genuine idiot.

Thornhill: Thank you.

[Jimbo]

One week has passed since this thread was started and there has been no official comment by either Admin or one of the mods. Bit strange isn't it considering this is in the forum support desk section and it could be an important topic to some members.

[Puccini]

orang37 wrote:

...So we thought we'd raise the issue...

Who is "we"?

Forget my question. I see the answer in the next line of your post. "We" is "you and you":

...consider the hypothetical case that I and I post a link...

Puzzle solved.

[sbk]

One week has passed since this thread was started and there has been no official comment by either Admin or one of the mods. Bit strange isn't it considering this is in the forum support desk section and it could be an important topic to some members.

And the topic has been under discussion by mods and admin during that period. When we have a definitive answer, one will be forthcoming, cheers.

[Puccini]

Of course you retain copyright, same as on any public forum. No forum can take away your copyright.

I think you've said it all, but I would put it slightly differently. I would say that you own the copyright to something you created unless and until there is a document evidencing that another person is the owner.

...We have e-mailed Khun George (root admin)...

You and you will not own the copyright of your posts because George says so. Otherwise, you would need confirmation also from the other 6,794,199,999 people on earth that they do not own the copyright of your posts.

[jazzbo]

Of course you retain copyright, same as on any public forum. No forum can take away your copyright. Take away? No. But you can by virtue of the following sequence agree to terms which under certain conditions you may in effect be granting a waiver of Copyright:

Registration Terms & Rules

In order to proceed, you must agree to the following:

22) Not to post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles).

[bOX] I have read, understood and agree to these rules and conditions [REGISTER]

So if you went through the above Registration sequence, which you obviously did as you are a Member, and you then regardless of item 22. post your Copyrighted material on ThaiVisa.com, you have in effect by your action either said that your material is in fact not copyrighted in the first place, or that you are granting an unconditional waiver of Copyright to the Forum owner and its Partners ...

If you are concerned down the road that you maintain 100% Copyright privileges to your written materials don't post them in their entirety. If you write a 100 page book and then post a few paragraphs or pages as excerpt on the TV Forum, you have not relinquished your rights to the entire book, just that you can then not restrict how the TV forum might further use that Copyrighted material so posted. If you write a one page essay or poem song lyric that you post in its entirety or post a photograph on the Forum, you probably then have in fact granted a Copyright waiver to the Forum.

NB from the Thaivisa.com 'About' page -- Who we are: This website is managed from abroad, and not within Thailand.

Edited January 4, 2010 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

I have found, at first by chance, that there are a few websites that allow user-posted information with the following notice:

Copyright remains with the original copyright holder

or

Contributors maintain their own copyrights to original works.