Israeli Electrocuted To Death In Thailand

[newtronbom]

I am an electrician of 42 years in the UK ,if the Thai government did any electrical regulations the same as the UK there would not be so many deaths from electrocution . Accidents happen but if work done properly disconnection time is point 4 of a second and no one is killed , in fact you will not feel anything it has tripped that quick. I know Thailand is very bad i have lived here for 8 years with my wife and the things they do are criminal. RIP, young man and sorry for your loss to his family.

Good point and I agree with you, but it can not happen over night. If you have lived here that long, you will know that also. When I personally ( I am not a sparky) earthed out our house, and gave the high temp shower heater its own earth and trip, neighbors asked why........now you will see many houses near me have done the same. It takes time and understanding, not just criticism.

[solai4]

Very sad Many People Not Noticing The Caution Board.Many Happen In Koh samui Chaweng Beach They Have Caution Board On Some Dangerous area No swimming But Many people Not Care About That

[peecee]

RIP

Sad story, same thing happened to my neighbors little boy a few years ago in

Pattaya

Electricity and water don't mix and should be kept well apart

But then most people know that

." I turned around and saw him drowning. I quickly dove into the pool and pulled him out."

That raises a question or 2.. cable still in the water, why didnt he get electricuted too? Was someone crazy enough to pull the cable out of the water first? Wet swimmers, wet deck, live cable, that should have toasted someone too.

The supply proberbly fused or burnt out, lucky guy though!

[robint]

Sad story's all over,but what to think about this electric water heater's? they are used all over Thailand.

Me, I never feel save when I use this heater's especialy because I now thai's don't take grounding electric equipment serious!!

This moment I live in a place without a shower heater it is cold but more save!

Take care

You are quite right to be concerned about electric showers which are very common in LOS. rarely do they have a proper earth (ground) wire installed. older ones dont have a safety trip and should definately NOT be used without a reliable earth connection - but how can you as a tourist know whether its properly grounded - impracticable - play safe dont use it.

the modern shower heaters usually have a safety trip and you should use the test button before showering and it really should also have an earth wire - normally visible as a separate wire.

unfortunately these trips are electronically operated and they can fail or be affected by lightning. i knew of one that failed myself and there is no warning other than it fails to trip on the test button. ive also known of a mamasan who was electrocuted by a faulty shower.

you pay your money and take your chances

[reallyok]

friends and booze...

drunken

let my guess.. one of his 'friends' just wanted to see what would happen if he trown in an electrical cable

strange how an electrical cable can just fall... as they are not supposed to be anywhere near a pool, day or night...

maybe somebody tossed in a latern or something

OMG thabkk !!!!! the likes of you will say anything to 'save face'.............Just have to blame someone else, it could'nt possibly be the fault of shoddy Thai wireing could it.

[jboras]

So how did this guy jusmp in the water pull the victim out and not get killed himself? Did some one cut the breaker? Hmmmm

[reallyok]

How the hel_l is a seemingly unterminated cable left live? Furthemore, it should have been connected through a Earth-leakage breaker, which would have tripped immediately upon contact with the water (earth) and the guy would not have been electrocuted. Whichever so-called electrician worked on this should be fuc_king shot!!

Oh my goodness COB, surely you cant expect a Thai electrician to know all this. Be fair now !

[kimamey]

RIP

Sad story, same thing happened to my neighbors little boy a few years ago in

Pattaya

Electricity and water don't mix and should be kept well apart

But then most people know that

." I turned around and saw him drowning. I quickly dove into the pool and pulled him out."

That raises a question or 2.. cable still in the water, why didnt he get electricuted too? Was someone crazy enough to pull the cable out of the water first? Wet swimmers, wet deck, live cable, that should have toasted someone too.

Very sad and so young.

You're right it does raise some questions. Others round the pool may have been ok if there wasn't direct contact between water on the deck and the pool or cable but then I'm not sure about in the pool either. Usually electricity find the route to earth via least resistance, in this case the water so less likely to go through a person. It's a bit like lightning on a plane where it goes round the fuselage not through the passengers.

I'm no expert but maybe someone else is.

[kimamey]

These events always puzzle me, as related they are not possible. If a person in freely suspended in water, (particularly chlorinated water), they cannot be electrocuted by dropping a live mains feed into the water.

Electricity flows from "live" to "ground" (neutral), it will follow the path of least resistance, or using Kirchoff's laws, the paths of least resistance.

If a twin cable with exposed ends is dropped into a conductive fluid, the path of least resistance is the half a centimetre or so of water seperating the two wires. If you managed to just immerse the live wire only in the swimming pool then the current will flow to ground via the water, the amount which actually flows through a swimmer would be minute.

Try it yourself, strip the insulation off the end of a twin cable, connect it to the mains supply and dip the bare ends into a basin of salt water, you will see violent activity at the cut end, green fumes and possibly a flame. Put a fish in the water and it will get excited by the activity, but not killed.

Additionally with a healthy person 220v is painful but not lethal, otherwise I would not be writing this . What kills is the shock and duration of the shock, just as a loud bang can shock some people to death. An ELCB or RCCB would have prevented this, when I rewired my Thai house I fitted an RCCB at the input to my distribution box, I can safely stick my finger into any mains socket. The RCCB trips at 30 mA, enough to make you say "ouch". if I had chosen a 5 mA trip I would not even notice before it tripped.

I mentioned this in a later post before I saw this so thanks for confirming it. Not sure I'd want to test it though.

[chill]

Any death is regrettable and my condolences go out to the young man's family.

On another point, despite some the vindictive and nasty posts, some good may come from this thread.

May I say a genuine thank you to those experts and others who have enlightened me about the dangers of electrical wiring near water with the various solutions.

I, and I hope many others, will have taken some or all of those recommendations on board and other lives may be saved.

[bina]

i didnt have patience to scroll through all the pages bbut in case it was not mentioned:

from the yediot ahronot israeli paper (blurb from the internet); they quote someone that was there as saying that the guys were playing with the water cleaning robot: i copied the hebrew also as the direct quote from the article.

איתי, ישראלי נוסף שהיה במקום, סיפר שהתחשמלות נוצרה כתוצאה ממשחק עם כבל חשמלי של הרובוט שמנקה את הבריכה. "זה לא היה רשלנות של המלון, כנראה מישהו מהחבר'ה שיחק עם הכבלים. אני לא אחראי בטיחות או משהו אבל המנוע החשמלי של הרובוט ישב די רחוק מהבריכה וכדי שהכבל ייפול למים מישהו היה צריך לשחק איתו".

my translation: itai, one of the israelis that was there at the time said that the electrocution happend because apparently someoen was playing with the robot cleaning machine. it wasnt neglegince on the part of the hotel, he says: "and then im not in charge of safety issues or something but the electric engine for the robot sat far from the pool anf for the cable to fall in the water someone must have had to play with it."

לדבריו, חלק מהאנשים הצליחו לצאת מהמים אבל סוריאנו התחשמל ומת במקום.

he also says that most of the people succeeded in getting out of the water but surianu got electrocuted and died.

the other newspapers dont mention that little piece of possible speculation; they just mention a cable fallilng in the water.

either way, if thsi was in israel or the states everyone would be sueing everyone ; if the pool isnt open at night, then it should be fenced off... etc. . here we fence off our pool at night, really really high fence cause all the guys/girls that come here as visitors happen to like to climb over and play in the pool-- i live near by and hear them. and we also have one of those robot things which always terrified me also, electricity and water. it made the second inside page here along with goverment corruption blablabla.

either way, i feel for their family...

bina

israel

[stolidfeline]

Walk along any street in Thailand and you will see cables to advertising signs lying in the water on the sidewalk, often bits of wire joined with electrical tape and often with frayed bare wire exposed. There have been numerous people electrocuted in this way.

Incidentally, the pool cleaning robot cables would probably have be harmless if (a) There was an isolation transformer, as required for all outdoor electrical installations and ( The machine was secured at night and electricity switched off.

Any of these deaths can be easily prevented - all it takes is for someone to take law enforcement seriously.

Edited December 29, 2009 by stolidfeline

[infernalman7]

If what Bina said is true then he died because of the "preventable" stupidity of him and his friends that were playing with the cleaning robot. If his family decided to sue the hotel then the outcome will depend whether the hotel did let them in or not. If not, the family will lose the case given that the warning sign is already there and is easily visible. You don't need a fence or anything.

If it's the Australian law, which is very similar to the UK's and NZ's, the hotel is not wrong at all if the sign is very visible already. Just think of it as a tiger farm where there's a sign say do not touch tigers without our supervision. If a person touches a tiger and was killed, then it's not the zoos fault.

[infernalman7]

I sorta agree that there are way too many unnecessary bashing here. If everything here in this country is so miserable, best solution: leave. If the Thais are so stupid, then don't do anything with them. No one can stop you. It's all your choice. Many of the things said here are also assumptions.

However, we must not neglect the fact that the safety standards here are not really enforced. Partly because of the Mai Pen Rai attitude but the standard has been improving, people. Thailand is still a developing country, and it is still struggling to be better. You cannot assume that it must be just like your home country.

This is a good reminder to everyone that swimming when the pool is closed where you are not familiar is not a good idea. Drinking + swimming is already not a good idea to begin with.

I feel for the family.

[bina]

infernalman:

just a reminder: i didnt state anything. i m quoting one of our newspapers - actually one that is a bit more tabloid than others btw. at any rate, in israel, rules of any sort are generally considered 'suggested actions' but not much more. i work in a hotel and i see it every day. and i am an ex safety and hygiene manager. this mind set is one of the reasons i quit that job in our factory. im too 'american i.e. square' for the workers/management. the reason our hotel pool is locked double, with a super high fence around it.and a sign in three four languages used here is because a prevous manager has that north american rule oriented background, and also a quality control /procedural mentality, because we know our clientele (mostly local). unfortuately, this same attitude of 'rules are suggestions and not absolutes' cost this kid, an ex army officer, and a generally all around nice guy-- known as a responsible kid-, his life, if indeed this was the scenario.

anyone that works in hotel/tourism has to take in to consideration the clientele, from food/religous restrictions/problems to general behavior patterns.

but also, as mentioned, thailand doesnt seem to make safety measures a priority. not hysterical safety measures, but basic ones. hotels that have young boisterous clients should probably make extra precautions, like fencing and locking entry to pools or other areas, rather then relying just on signs.

of course drinking and swimming dont mix, but pool parties for kids just out of high school/college/released from army are a popular thing in any country. which of course makes me, as a mother to three kids in this category, hysterical!>

what can i say....

bina

israel

[Brunus]

I met many Israeli people here in Thailand. Most of them just finished their military service. All of them were nice. I understand young people who want to have fun after that experience. I can't stand people telling "you deserved it". Everybody has been young, and if we are still here it's because we are lucky and we didn't pay such a high price for our youth "stupidity". So far we don't know what has really happened. And probably we will never know (amazing Thailand). I just hope that this guy didn't suffer much. I hope he was so wasted he could just remember the happy moments with his friends. R.I.P.

[wolf5370]

I am under the impression that if you are in the water, and not touching the sides or bottom of the pool, and thus not providing a fast route to earth (a bridge with a large potential difference end to end), that you would not be electrocuted anyway. The same way that birds can happily sit on high powered cables is that they are not creating a bridge for the electricity to run through (and thus boiling the poor little bird's body in the process). People get electrocuted in baths (and showers) because they are touching the bottom and sides of the bath. May be this was why only one person died while others in the pool were unhurt - and maybe why Billy the Fish survived diving in.

A small story - an Thai Aunt of mine bought a new building that was divided into flats. She decided to stay in one of the appartments. The showers were built as a cubicle with a separate toilet room. The lioght switch form the cubicle, yep you guessed it, was inside the cubicle, when she finished showering she electrocuted herself trying to switch the light off on nthe way out - as there was no earth she took a sustained shock and collapsed. She survived, but what kind of an idiot puts a light switch inside a shower cubicle?

[jsflynn603]

JB5music: "The idiot that said that has the misconception that if a person gets electrocuted by a cable in a pool that the "electrocution" happens in one short burst and then the guy is dead and the whole incident is over. oblivious to the fact that as longas the cable is in the pool ANYONE who jumps in there will be electrocuted as well unless the power was quickly cut from the cable."

Electrocution generally does happen in a short burst, even contact for 60 milliseconds (less than 1/10 of a second) can be enough. The heart either goes arrhythmic or goes asystole (without any heart activity). If the victim was arrhythmic (generally fibrillation where the heart is beating but totally out of proper rhythm) then prompt CPR and AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) within 2-6 minutes could possibly have revived him. I doubt that an AED was available within the time frame necessary. If he went asystole (no heart beat) then most AED's outside of a hospital cannot start a heartbeat.

In the US; Canada and Australia there are GFCI's (Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors) (aka RCD's; "safety switches" or ALCI (appliance leakage current interruptor)) designed to detect current leaking outside the load (such as a stereo or lamp on an electrical cord. The will break the circuit and shut off electricity if they detect 5-40 milliamperes leakage within 17-40 milliseconds. Electrical safety in many countries is almost non-existent. This case is especially sad because there is a type of GFCI that works even if the line has no line to ground which is generally the case in Thailand. If one had been installed the fellow would be alive.

JB5music: "So the next thing I would inact would be to throw the cable in the pool again and see if it's connected to a circuit box that trips because of the short. I would highly doubt it would trip that quickly because the pool is a large area allowing the current to dissipate amply which would keep the wire and the circuit from heating and tripping as rapidly as it would have had to in order for "Billy" to be standing here telling us this."

Even if it was a "slo-blo" fuse, the fuse or circuit breaker most likely would have tripped within a second or two. Because the pool is a large area it makes a great "ground," the current would indeed dissipate quickly, CAUSING the heating which would blow even a slo-blo fuse.

I have a photograph of a public pool in the Republic of Philippines where alongside the pool there is a ledge about a foot wide. About 4' above the generally wet ledge was a rather sizable circuit breaker/fuse box. Clearly electrical safety is not taken seriously at that place.

I am surprised that there is not a small, inexpensive device where a wire with a clamp can be attached to a ground (perhaps a copper water pipe) and another wire that connects to a probe could be used to detect appliance "leakage" from, for instance, a stove, appliance, or water heater.

[Jirapa]

RIP

Sad story, same thing happened to my neighbors little boy a few years ago in

Pattaya

Electricity and water don't mix and should be kept well apart

But then most people know that

Sad story's all over,but what to think about this electric water heater's? they are used all over Thailand.

Me, I never feel save when I use this heater's especialy because I now thai's don't take grounding electric equipment serious!!

This moment I live in a place without a shower heater it is cold but more save!

Take care

I've got an electric hot shower which is earthered. More chance getting run over by a bus than dying in the shower

[newtronbom]

Thanks for that Bina. Good to see some sensible comments finally coming out - at least on this page. As Bina says, any place catering for a young crowd out for a good time, should take extra care to avoid this sort of tragedy. When I was that age, a sign meant little to me either - was even a challenge. I often wonder how it is, that I made it this far too. I just hope that there will be some good to come out of this terrible accident. A few 200 baht circuit breakers would be a good start in many places!

[Roadman]

I think the safety standards have been meet. Put up a fence then the challenge is then extended to getting over the fence or if there are a lot of you through the fence. While you are thinking about how to get the p1ssed chicks and the BBQ you just found from motel unit 13 through the fence you can have another few beers. It gradually all becomes more logical.

Then once the aussie front row have shoulder charged the fence and lowered it its party time.

Billy said there was a sign by the pool forbidding swimming at night: "Everyone goes in even though it's written that violators will be fined 2,000 baht (about $60). No one cares. We were all swimming there."

The drunker the bigger the challenge. And that is why the sign is there forbidding night use because no matter how much you pool/fool proof everything you cannot fool proof drunks at their busier and drunkess time - the night.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Roadman

[newtronbom]

I think the safety standards have been meet. Put up a fence then the challenge is then extended to getting over the fence or if there are a lot of you through the fence. While you are thinking about how to get the p1ssed chicks and the BBQ you just found from motel unit 13 through the fence you can have another few beers. It gradually all becomes more logical.

Then once the aussie front row have shoulder charged the fence and lowered it its party time.

Billy said there was a sign by the pool forbidding swimming at night: "Everyone goes in even though it's written that violators will be fined 2,000 baht (about $60). No one cares. We were all swimming there."

The drunker the bigger the challenge. And that is why the sign is there forbidding night use because no matter how much you pool/fool proof everything you cannot fool proof drunks at their busier and drunkess time - the night.

Sad but true. Good comment, except a Kiwi front row would do it in half the time. Just like Sydney to Hobart. Signs are there for a reason - but they are never proof against high spirits and youth.

[rfukata]

Unfortunate and Very Sad.

Another defective THAI Electrical Engineering standard. Most Thai electricians are non-licensed laborers.

[Jonathanpattaya]

What a tragedy.

R.I.P.

Condolences to family and friends.

[Jazzmaster]

After reading this story and all of the subsequent hilariously stupid comments, I would have to say the average IQ on this board would have to be about Socket Wrench !!! Feel free to read the whole story before posting ridiculous comments. Regards to the few posters that have tried to recap the actual facts for all the short bus people here. Jeez...

[Samuian]

JB5music: "The idiot that said that has the misconception that if a person gets electrocuted by a cable in a pool that the "electrocution" happens in one short burst and then the guy is dead and the whole incident is over. oblivious to the fact that as longas the cable is in the pool ANYONE who jumps in there will be electrocuted as well unless the power was quickly cut from the cable."

Electrocution generally does happen in a short burst, even contact for 60 milliseconds (less than 1/10 of a second) can be enough. The heart either goes arrhythmic or goes asystole (without any heart activity). If the victim was arrhythmic (generally fibrillation where the heart is beating but totally out of proper rhythm) then prompt CPR and AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) within 2-6 minutes could possibly have revived him. I doubt that an AED was available within the time frame necessary. If he went asystole (no heart beat) then most AED's outside of a hospital cannot start a heartbeat.

In the US; Canada and Australia there are GFCI's (Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors) (aka RCD's; "safety switches" or ALCI (appliance leakage current interruptor)) designed to detect current leaking outside the load (such as a stereo or lamp on an electrical cord. The will break the circuit and shut off electricity if they detect 5-40 milliamperes leakage within 17-40 milliseconds. Electrical safety in many countries is almost non-existent. This case is especially sad because there is a type of GFCI that works even if the line has no line to ground which is generally the case in Thailand. If one had been installed the fellow would be alive.

JB5music: "So the next thing I would inact would be to throw the cable in the pool again and see if it's connected to a circuit box that trips because of the short. I would highly doubt it would trip that quickly because the pool is a large area allowing the current to dissipate amply which would keep the wire and the circuit from heating and tripping as rapidly as it would have had to in order for "Billy" to be standing here telling us this."

Even if it was a "slo-blo" fuse, the fuse or circuit breaker most likely would have tripped within a second or two. Because the pool is a large area it makes a great "ground," the current would indeed dissipate quickly, CAUSING the heating which would blow even a slo-blo fuse.

I have a photograph of a public pool in the Republic of Philippines where alongside the pool there is a ledge about a foot wide. About 4' above the generally wet ledge was a rather sizable circuit breaker/fuse box. Clearly electrical safety is not taken seriously at that place.

I am surprised that there is not a small, inexpensive device where a wire with a clamp can be attached to a ground (perhaps a copper water pipe) and another wire that connects to a probe could be used to detect appliance "leakage" from, for instance, a stove, appliance, or water heater.

"In the US; Canada and Australia there are GFCI's (Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors) (aka RCD's; "safety switches" or ALCI (appliance leakage current interruptor)) designed to detect current leaking outside the load (such as a stereo or lamp on an electrical cord. The will break the circuit and shut off electricity if they detect 5-40 milliamperes leakage within 17-40 milliseconds. Electrical safety in many countries is almost non-existent. This case is especially sad because there is a type of GFCI that works even if the line has no line to ground which is generally the case in Thailand. If one had been installed the fellow would be alive.

"

I had on a previous job such a device installed to protect a fishbasin/waterfall type and a nearby pool with light sources in both, after a few weeks I had to realize that this life saving device had been deinstalled by workers who simply had no clue what this was all about!

I had the access to this area cordoned off - till the device was reinstalled and in working condition (test-trigger)!

[robert00]

it's a criminal to run cables near the water, let's see who is to blame for this accident.

"we were swimming in the pool all happy and drunk" - another missmatched activities

You can bet your bottom dollar, it will be the fault of the young Israeli, RIP.

[Ikon]

RIP

[nevets]

Water ( H20) is non conductive when deionized as in condensed steam returning to water, but water in its ordinary contaminated self will conduct electricity and may kill you . So keep the power away . And yous very low power 110volts or less around water. With a trip to break the electricity on touching in the event of a problem.

[TheJalapenoKid]

sickening to hear.. RIP

and i cant believe smoking saved the other guys life!!!!