German/thai Student Dies Of Electrocution In Phuket

[ignoramus]

Nice to read that people like MrBrit et al care enough to contribute to what has to be the most important matter confronting expats in LOS, apart from crazy-mad tuk-tuk "drivers".

Extremely sorry about the young man who died (and his family of course), and the countless others who shared his fate (there are doubtless many, unreported).

Not to take the matter lightly - but have a degree of trouble imagining why anyone would want a warm shower in LOS. I did nothing but perspire whilst there, and thanked Buddha that cold water was readily available in those bloody big pots. I hate the cold but apparently there are others who suffer more than I do. Apologies for any offence, unintended.

[sesame]

If you don't want to spend a huge amount on completely rewiring your house, just head down to Homepro and pick up a spool of 2.5mm earth cable and a 1m copper earthing rod and run your own earth to each shower heater.

If you see an earth cable already attached to the shower heater, you might want to double check the connection. Often as not, the earth wire heads up into the ceiling and is wrapped around a nail banged into a concrete beam. Because all the water pipe here is PVC, there's no automatic earth connection to any exposed metal so you have to run your own.

It's also worth running an earth to your washing machine & dryer. Modern fridges are mostly double-insulated with a two-pin plug so don't need an earth. It's also worth installing three-pin sockets in the kitchen for toasters, microwaves, etc that come with a three-pin plug.

Many Thai houses have a SafetyCut ELCB built into their main power board, but as far as I've seen it's generally set to "bypass" making it completely useless. This is because the standard way these are wired is upstream of all circuits - including high current kitchen equipment like ovens and ancient external air-conditioners - all of which are likely to continuously trip the SafetyCut under normal operating conditions.

A better idea - specially if you have kids around the house - is to just buy a single circuit RCCB from Homepro (best if it's the same brand as your electrical board) and connect it in-line with the breaker for your two-pin power outlets.

It's really fairly easy and cheap to earth the critical items in your house. Better than doing nothing and putting up with the tingling and occasional shocks. And the worry of knowing that there's no protection against your kids accidentally frying themselves!!!

[bonobo]

Make sure your unit is grounded and that you have a textured rubber mat that you stand on when you shower. These problems are avoidable. Our place was not setup with the ground wire.. we had to run one down the side of the house for the shower unit. These units save electricity unlike in the USA where you have a hot water heater on all day and night keeping the hot water hot.

Does the rubber mat really make a difference?  WIth all the water flowing over it, will that still allow the electricity to flow?  I am not being argumentative; I really want to know.

[tingtongfarang]

I wonder how the thais get along with all this...do they just think its normal?

Electrical stimulus provides for transient lucid moments free from the zombie-like state.

Was thinking something along those lines but was afraid to say it

[EyesWideOpen]

I had purchased a condo in Chiang Mai. As the standard hot water heater was looking pretty tired, I decided to change it. I carefully turned off the shower heater breaker, and started to disconnect it from the wall. Next thing I know I am getting the shit shocked out of me.... After a moment of astonishment, I took the panel cover off the breaker box. It turns out that whoever had wired it up had put the breakers on the ground side, instead of the live side. So the breaker would in essence turn the device off, but there was still live 220 power being supplied to it. Might be something for everyone to check.

[tingtongfarang]

If you don't want to spend a huge amount on completely rewiring your house, just head down to Homepro and pick up a spool of 2.5mm earth cable and a 1m copper earthing rod and run your own earth to each shower heater.

If you see an earth cable already attached to the shower heater, you might want to double check the connection. Often as not, the earth wire heads up into the ceiling and is wrapped around a nail banged into a concrete beam. Because all the water pipe here is PVC, there's no automatic earth connection to any exposed metal so you have to run your own.

It's also worth running an earth to your washing machine & dryer. Modern fridges are mostly double-insulated with a two-pin plug so don't need an earth. It's also worth installing three-pin sockets in the kitchen for toasters, microwaves, etc that come with a three-pin plug.

Many Thai houses have a SafetyCut ELCB built into their main power board, but as far as I've seen it's generally set to "bypass" making it completely useless. This is because the standard way these are wired is upstream of all circuits - including high current kitchen equipment like ovens and ancient external air-conditioners - all of which are likely to continuously trip the SafetyCut under normal operating conditions.

A better idea - specially if you have kids around the house - is to just buy a single circuit RCCB from Homepro (best if it's the same brand as your electrical board) and connect it in-line with the breaker for your two-pin power outlets.

It's really fairly easy and cheap to earth the critical items in your house. Better than doing nothing and putting up with the tingling and occasional shocks. And the worry of knowing that there's no protection against your kids accidentally frying themselves!!!

I feel loath to spend money on a property i rent and cant own, I,ll put up with the tingling and cold showers as i have no water heaters...really i think hot showers here are not needed inffact in the hotter months i rather run the water a while before a shower so its cooler, Maybe i been here too long,

The one thing which worries me is the fact that the water pump could never be earthed as it only has a two pin plug...danger?

Does anyone know if these shocks actualy speed up the electric meter as they do the heart rate?

[hanuman1]

Hi everyone

I'm moving house soon and although the place looks nice, I did notice the old-looking shower heaters in the bathrooms.

Can anyone tell me this: If the ELCB test switch pops out when testing, does that definitely mean the device is properly earthed?

Thanks a lot

H & Family

[subseasteve]

Make sure your unit is grounded and that you have a textured rubber mat that you stand on when you shower. These problems are avoidable. Our place was not setup with the ground wire.. we had to run one down the side of the house for the shower unit. These units save electricity unlike in the USA where you have a hot water heater on all day and night keeping the hot water hot.

Does the rubber mat really make a difference? WIth all the water flowing over it, will that still allow the electricity to flow? I am not being argumentative; I really want to know.

No the rubber mat doesn't help, fresh clean water is non conductive meaning electricity wont pass through it, but electricity can pass through the growing organisms in the water, which believe me there are in Thailand. A rubber mat is not a solution, good earthing is the only solution and breaker switches. We dont here much about khun Thai people getting electrocuted in this way because it doesn't make big news like falangs. And also the Thai response is that is must be bad luck or carma, the thought of rectifying the faults does not even register.

[espinoza]

Don't forget earth and RCBO when you install a water warmer !

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

[david555]

Make sure your unit is grounded and that you have a textured rubber mat that you stand on when you shower. These problems are avoidable. Our place was not setup with the ground wire.. we had to run one down the side of the house for the shower unit. These units save electricity unlike in the USA where you have a hot water heater on all day and night keeping the hot water hot.

i think the rubber mat can not save you as you are all covered and feet in water onthe rubber mat

[espinoza]

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

[uts]

As an Electrician, it does amaze me why Thai buildings (including ones farang have built for them)

are always missing the Earth, as well as being wired up completely wrong.

The very sad thing is, that there are laws that the Thai's are meant to abide by and sign a certificate saying the electrical installation is safe. Obviously no one checks or actually cares.

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

not always. you are welcome to check my house

-------------------------------------------------

It never ceases to amaze me why 'earth leakage' breakers are not instaled by property owners.

These give a high degree of protection, and do not require any skill or knowledge to fit!

All throughout Asia, the exterior wiring-in the street, looks like a maze of spaghetti, and in the rain, I have seen sparking, as the power lines are being shorted out by the rain water.

I don't think the local authorities will ever be able to introduce standards, eg. wiring rules, as even the basic street standards do not exist. Narrow streets, no pedestrian footpaths, are common place in the high popuation areas. A total mish-mash of non-standards.

?

=================================

This guy has it fully right: earthing and circuit breakers... and the problems are solved.

But that means 200 to 250 HB more and that's way too much for Thai investors who are only aiming the benefits... be it only 250 THB!!!

Authorities don't care. They are shortcuited and out through tea-money and briberies... We are used to that!

===================================

[willyumcr]

I'm not an electrician but it seems to me if the shower has been working for some time and all of a sudden problem. Then it sounds like a faulty unit and not the grounding. ??

[isaanpaul]

Lost for words

But defiantly avoidable for a few baht more

RIP

I am afraid that it has nothing to do with a few bath more it is the thai way of thinking,They have little respect for live even for there own.If you die you have to die.

It is all about Karma,boon and baab you now, good luck and bad luck.I am startlet that I mention this morning (in the case of the israely boy who died in the pool)about

the electricwater heaters with no decend earth overhere and this happend.

I want to express my condolences to the family.

[robint]

sorry to say i posted on this only the other day on the Israela guy electrocuted in the pool.

it went a bit off topic but here's the gist

quote

Sad story's all over,but what to think about this electric water heater's? they are used all over Thailand.

Me, I never feel save when I use this heater's especialy because I now thai's don't take grounding electric equipment serious!!

This moment I live in a place without a shower heater it is cold but more save!

Take care

You are quite right to be concerned about electric showers which are very common in LOS. rarely do they have a proper earth (ground) wire installed. older ones dont have a safety trip and should definately NOT be used without a reliable earth connection - but how can you as a tourist know whether its properly grounded - impracticable - play safe dont use it.

the modern shower heaters usually have a safety trip and you should use the test button before showering and it really should also have an earth wire - normally visible as a separate wire.

unfortunately these trips are electronically operated and they can fail or be affected by lightning. i knew of one that failed myself and there is no warning other than it fails to trip on the test button. ive also known of a mamasan who was electrocuted by a faulty shower.

you pay your money and take your chances

unquote

FWIW

in my appartment, i changed out the standard circuit breaker (main switch which should be close to the shower heater - sometimes in the same room just above the heater - dont splash it!) for a direct replacement which looks the same but its got a test button underneath the switch. Its caled a safety breaker (not a Safety Cut). It looks identical to the standard black bakelite breaker and it cost B400 - very good investment. Also should be used on the circuit supplying your kithen.

Beware however, its not completely foolproof - for a start its made in China with their poor quality control, but its the same unit that is typicaly fitted inside a odern shower heater - so its a back up if yo like.

BUT its no substitute for a properly grounded 6mm earth wire. You can buy a proper copper coated earth rod from hardware store for about B100. eith 2m or 3m long. Bang it into the ground near somewhere that is likely to have moist ground throut the year (dried up ground is not an effective earth). I put mine close to the septic tank, but a well of open drain would do.

BTW the nasty Safery Cut box sold at an exorbitant B2000 in places like Homepro is a right con. Worse still it has a selector on the front which allows you to completely bypass the entire unit - nasty.

You have to take care because no one else will.

If anyone is seriously interested in what to do with electrics then we should start a searate topic.

[bkkdawg]

Happy we have central heating.

And we have solar waterheating

woooooooooooooooooooow

[Jangot]

I'm not an electrician but it seems to me if the shower has been working for some time and all of a sudden problem. Then it sounds like a faulty unit and not the grounding. ??

The grounding needs to be there to protect you for when the unit becomes faulty.

[kennalder]

Typical Thai disregard for anything resembling safety. Nobody has any foresight in this country when it comes to public or worker safety.

Absolutely correct! Life is cheap here. There is a reason why much of the US is requiring GFI outlets in proximity to water in kitchens and bathrooms.

[bifftastic]

I'm not an electrician but it seems to me if the shower has been working for some time and all of a sudden problem. Then it sounds like a faulty unit and not the grounding. ??

Terrible news, condolences to the poor boys family.

I am also not an electrician but I understood that the whole point of earthing/grounding is that when there is a problem the current is sent to earth through the grounding cable as opposed to through your body. yes?

When I go to chiang rai in a couple of weeks i'll be checking the newly installed water heater for an earth,( g/f sisters son installed it) just want to double check I've got the advice given here right;

assuming there isn't an earth i need to buy some insulated cable, attach it to the heater casing (how? with a screw?), run it through the wall and attach the other end to a ground spike to a depth of around 4 feet?

Any advice much appreciated, I want to avoid the possibility of this terrible tragedy happening to any of my loved ones.

Thanks

[trogers]

Concentrating on proper ground wire for the water/shower heater is not enough. It is common to find 2 other electrical points in the bathrooms in Thailand - the light switch and a power socket (probably duplex).

Installing an ELCB at the main breaker is still a better way to prevent electrocution in the home.

[globin]

Why solar and gas heaters don't lead the market here, I guess, is a question of ignorance, economics or commercial monopoly. We heat water to generate steam, to turn turbines to rotate generators, to send electricity through the grid to heat water again???

[eggomaniac]

Just in response to the 'typical Thai' and 'only in Thailand' comments; as of March 2008, there were a dozen electrocution deaths of American soldiers in Iraq at the hands of American installations.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4489783&page=1

Also, > Construction Injuries: Electrocution

It has been estimated that at least 700 occupational electrocutions occur each year.

----------

[tingtongfarang]

I wonder how the thais get along with all this...do they just think its normal?

Electrical stimulus provides for transient lucid moments free from the zombie-like state.

Was thinking something along those lines but was afraid to say it

My fridge never fails to give one of these very strong tingling shocks , Its one of those big double door american jobs with the option of ice and chilled water, I even tried putting a woven mat in front of it to stand on but it had little affect,

On a night when a date came around to stay for an amorous night she got hungry in the early hours of the morning and wanderd naked into the kitchen with intentions on cooking, After some minutes i followed and the action just seem to move to the kitchen, Not sure what came over me but i seen my chance for a small physics experiment and made sure my feet were on the mat then took a tight grip on the fridge door...the result was a strong tightening of all muscles and she pulled a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp, She got quite angry for a few minutes.

transient lucid moment or was it just me being evil?

[TAWP]

Not to take the matter lightly - but have a degree of trouble imagining why anyone would want a warm shower in LOS. I did nothing but perspire whilst there, and thanked Buddha that cold water was readily available in those bloody big pots. I hate the cold but apparently there are others who suffer more than I do. Apologies for any offence, unintended.

Some of us are not overweight and as such don't need to take cold showers to cool off or think it is too cold showering in the morning before going to work. Especially during Dec-Jan if the cold-snap comes.

[stolidfeline]

It is only when a foreigner is electrocuted that a fuss is made and things get reported in the press. In my "alternative" home in the village, we seem to have people electrocuted quite regularly, mostly from wires trailing around in the rain. Certainly a couple a year. Then down in Bangkok, it's bare cables on the sidewalk and - you guessed it - water heaters. I've lived here 35 years an I have rarely seen one installed correctly yet, even in the best hotels. I've tried explaining earthing and ELCB's to local electricians but I have yet to find a Thai, even the best educated ones, who can really comprehend what I am talking about. They just don't think things through. In most homes, the token gesture towards safety is a 30 Amp magnetic cutout usually right next to the water heater, where you can touch it standing in the shower. I've moved and rewired several over the years for people and almost been sued by the dwelling owners for my pains. Also, whenever I have seen an earth system in Thailand and have followed the grounding cable to its destination, I have often found it is attached to a 6" nail or just poked into a hole in the concrete. Even the few times I have seen a copper earthing rod, it is too small to be of any use, and in any case is hammered into concrete! Needless to say, in the villages, no circuit breakers of any kind, no cutouts, no double pole isolating switches, no ground/earth systems to be seen anywhere. Often the whole house running an a 2 core 1mm sq. cable. Many houses burn down each year due to burning cables and short circuits.

There just has to be thousands of people killed every year. Sadly, most of the time it's "mai pen rai" and sod the poor bastard that got killed.

[espinoza]

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

yes me. www.panthira.com don't live there but we travel.

Hi.

Can you please give me a price ? I`m building a one story house. About 200 m2. In amphue Faorai, in Nong Khai province. I`m going to use at least one A/C and a lot of the usual things.

Regards.

[JatujakShopper]

As an Electrician, it does amaze me why Thai buildings (including ones farang have built for them)

are always missing the Earth, as well as being wired up completely wrong.

The very sad thing is, that there are laws that the Thai's are meant to abide by and sign a certificate saying the electrical installation is safe. Obviously no one checks or actually cares.

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

So many stories like this, so sad, so needless.

It is some solace to hear an electrician confirming what I have always thought, that most wiring in Thailand is shoddy and dangerous. I came to that conclusion after having a hot wire that someone had left sticking out of the house's central power box(!) knock me off a ladder when I was painting the kitchen- I had a lovely high speed taxi ride to Bumrungrad I was in pain and real shook up but no serious damage- I got away lucky. Come to find out nothing in the house was grounded which was why I would consistently get small shocks from the DVD player or even the PC. All in all a dangerous and disgraceful state of affairs. Wake up Thailand! Stop the excuses and fix it!

[trogers]

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

yes me. www.panthira.com don't live there but we travel.

Hi.

Can you please give me a price ? I`m building a one story house. About 200 m2. In amphue Faorai, in Nong Khai province. I`m going to use at least one A/C and a lot of the usual things.

Regards.

That's quite a big house. I would say at least an 8-circuit 63A system.

http://www.safe-t-cut.com/eng/index.php?na...oduct&id=18

Budget Bt10k including installation of main board, but exclude all the other electrical works.

[SanSaiExPat]

these type of showers normally have a built in RCBO, but this would not operate if a earth is not connected in this installation. my bet is there wasn't.

this sad death could have been so easily avoided. baaaaaaaaaaaaaa

In our house in Chiang Mai I insisted on putting an "earth ground wire" in the one bathroom we have an electircal hot water heater in. (Our other bath has a gas hot water heater.) I had to run over 75 feet of #10 AWG copper wire up the side of the house and into the attic space and then down into the bath. Our neighbor who was having some other electrical work done at the same time asked my wife what I was doing and if they could lend a hand. When she told them I was grounding our hot water heater they almost doubled up laughing. They told her in Thai something to the effect that "falang are stupid". Their reasoning; "The house is made of cement brick. The cement and the building itself is the only "ground" required." I just nodded my head and told my wife that it was ok, we'd still be grounding our hot water heater, the old fashioned falang way. You can't fight them here you just have to double check all their work, smile and then go ahead and do what you know to be correct.

In Thailand don't "assume" anything. Keep your eyes open and use caution in dealing with ALL things...(women included)

[simon43]

One comment to make about installing an earth rod. One of the best conductors to use is copper, which is why shops sell 2 meter copper earth rods.

Or do they??

When I installed these at my Phuket hotel during construction, I was amazed to see the copper color coming off the earth rods a few weeks later! In fact, they were steel rods painted a copper color!!!

Needless to say, they were all replaced with copper earth rods immediately.

So if you are buying copper earth rods in Thailand, scratch them with a knife to check that they are copper all the way through!

Also, in places like Phuket, the soil is mostly sand for several meters of depth. Then it's very difficult to achieve a good grounding.

Simon