Swastikas And Thai Ignorance

[Brunus]

Although in practice communist governments have turned out to be totalitarian, there exist intellectual communists who believe in the ideals of communism (that turned out are easier to image than accomplish). Of course there is shame whatsoever for such people to be proud communists. It's not as if capitalism has been a smashing success in for all humanity either.

Marx himself defined communism as an utopia (I think it is an English word too). It means it would be good but it is impossible to reach. I am talking about "good communism". History teaches. Good communism is impossible to obtain. We have to learn from history and condemn what is bad. Communism was as bad as nazi, maybe even worse.

[Jingthing]

You are forgetting there are examples of small scale communism that have worked for some groups of people. The classic example is the communist origins of the Israeli kibbutzim movement. The idea of collective living and owning the means of production is not inherently evil. In practice, it seems to have potential to work for SMALL groups of people, not large states.

In America, there were many examples of utopian idealistic communities of people coming together which had many communist elements. No, they didn't last, but for the most part they were not evil, and certainly had good intentions. Also, in America, it was socialists and communists who for the most part were the active force to resist the capitalist robber barons and bring about some workers rights. You can't just simplistically say all communists are evil.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Jingthing

[heykki]

Endure, you said they would have no clue but have you thought of the possibility that they know exactly? Nationalism occurs in every country.

[Brunus]

You are forgetting there are examples of small scale communism that have worked for some groups of people. The classic example is the communist origins of the Israeli kibbutzim movement. The idea of collective living and owning the means of production is not inherently evil. In practice, it seems to have potential to work for SMALL groups of people, not large states.

True. But this doesn't change the fact that the communist symbol has been used for genocides as the swastika has been used for a genocide

[endure]

Endure, you said they would have no clue but have you thought of the possibility that they know exactly? Nationalism occurs in every country.

Ask the next 10 Thais you see who Adolf Hitler was. Then ask them for a list of participants in WWII. Let us know how many could answer either question correctly.

[Brunus]

Jingthing

I read many of your posts and you seem a very nice person. I understood you live in Pattaya, so do I. I would like to meet nice people here. If you want, you can PM me I will give you my mobile number and we can meet. I hope that the fact we don't agree about some issues won't be a problem for you. I am a nice guy, married, not trying to pick you up . Just want to meet nice people in this place

[bifftastic]

You are forgetting there are examples of small scale communism that have worked for some groups of people. The classic example is the communist origins of the Israeli kibbutzim movement. The idea of collective living and owning the means of production is not inherently evil. In practice, it seems to have potential to work for SMALL groups of people, not large states.

True. But this doesn't change the fact that the communist symbol has been used for genocides as the swastika has been used for a genocide

Thought I'd just chip in with my two penneth.

Whilst no-one can disagree that communist regimes have committed awful murderous crimes, and that the hammer and sickle can be said to represent some of these regimes, the nazis specifically promoted themselves as a quasi-religious cult and the black sawastika in a white circle on a red background was used to fire up the hatred of anything other than them. Thousands of banners in the Nurenburg rallies, draped on every building throughout the 3rd reich it remains today the single most chilling symbol that can be displayed, particularly from a European/North American perspective. Point being that the symbol itself represented the evils carried out whereas the hammer and sickle represented the 'supposed' coming together of the industrial and the rural proletariat in a struggle against their capitalist overlords. The facts remain undeniable that the soviet communist regime under Stalin, rather than elevating and liberating their workers and rural peasants exterminated them with a ruthlessness that the nazis copied, but the hammer and sickle does actually represent something else.

somewhat moot point if you were on the receiving end of either regime, as a cattle-truck trip to a gulag or a stalag would feel pretty much the same, slave labour to build the industrial capacity to wage war is the same under any banner.

Education is (always) the key, it is very disturbing to imagine school children marching about with nazi swastikas on their arms. I'm presuming (yes I know it's always dangerous) that they're seeing the buddhist connection to a symbol with an Asian historical/religious background from a very dark and bloody part of European history that they don't understand/are not taught.

[Jingthing]

biff, you said it better than I could. Thank you.

[Neeranam]

When it comes to cultural and historical differences between the East and the West, many foreigners in Thailand are challenged in their beliefs and sense of right and wrong. Indeed there are many aspects of life here in the Land of Smiles that westerners could learn from. But while I love my country, I cannot but feel saddened and angered over the ignorance and indifference to the crimes of the past, on a global scale, that Thais seem to eschew when it comes to WWII, the Holocaust, and Nazism.

Now I'm not talking about the one or two swastika t-shirts being sold along Silom road. My issue is with an educational institution that is supposedly teaching the minds of tomorrow. I found out today that a magnet school for this country's most prestigious university will feature a "color sport day" where over a hundred students will be wearing Nazi armbands like members of the SS... replete with an iron-on swastika. I imagine that today's youth view Nazi Germany in somewhat of a romantic light given the Hollywood exposure and little or no academic counterweight. But for teachers I hold no such understanding or forgiveness. The teachers at this school saw no problem with students building team spirit with a symbol that saw millions of people murdered. Compared with Thailand's population during WWII, half that number of Jews, Gypsies, and Poles were murdered. 1 out of every 2 Thais would be dead simply because of their ethnicity. That this horrible period in World history is not properly taught or respected I find abhorrent.

As is so often said, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. What a truly sad day that will be when it comes to this country. sad.gif

You are obviously either a Western-educated Thai or a 'look krung'. Just remember that not all real Thais are as privileged as you and don't have the benefit of international education.

Do you think Thais actually know who Sid Vicious was?

[Brunus]

Whilst no-one can disagree that communist regimes have committed awful murderous crimes, and that the hammer and sickle can be said to represent some of these regimes, the nazis specifically promoted themselves as a quasi-religious cult and the black sawastika in a white circle on a red background was used to fire up the hatred of anything other than them.

And Pol Pot and others killed their own people under the hammer and sickle symbol. And this symbol has been used to fire up the hatred among the very same people (I mean you kill your "brother" not somebody different from you). Which one is worse? For me they are on the same level.

[bifftastic]

biff, you said it better than I could. Thank you.

No problem

[bifftastic]

Whilst no-one can disagree that communist regimes have committed awful murderous crimes, and that the hammer and sickle can be said to represent some of these regimes, the nazis specifically promoted themselves as a quasi-religious cult and the black sawastika in a white circle on a red background was used to fire up the hatred of anything other than them.

And Pol Pot and others killed their own people under the hammer and sickle symbol. And this symbol has been used to fire up the hatred among the very same people (I mean you kill your "brother" not somebody different from you). Which one is worse? For me they are on the same level.

yes, as i said, the regimes are on the same level of brutality, in fact the soviets were probably worse and the khmer rouge too. If you read my whole post you will see that I said that. The symbol itself (hammer and sickle) was not used to fire up hatred, I didn't say the hatred was not there. I also said it was a moot point if you were on the receiving end of either regime.

You could, equally correctly, point out the horrifying atrocities carried out under the Union flag of my own country and those facts would be undeniable but would not change what the Union flag represents, which is a political union of England Scotland and Ireland.

What is carried out under a flag does not tell you anything about what the symbols on the flag mean.

And for the record, someone different from me is still my brother/sister (ie human!)

and no, I'm not a communist.

[Parvis]

Much what has been written about "Nazis" during the "30 jearigen Reich" is not true/and/or exaggerated - but also much of it was true. Who am I to know? - I was there - I know better - I was born in Germany.

We are all "capable of evil" as the "Stanford Experiment" so clearly demonstrated.

We should not condone - but we should also look into the mirror every day to assure we will "do unto others as we would them do unto us".

"Nazi" stands for "Nationale Socialistisch Party" - it also started as a legitimate "Ideoligy"

"Gestapo" (Geheime Staats Polizei) was no "evil force" - but just the equivalent of the FBI.

[Brunus]

"yes, as i said, the regimes are on the same level of brutality, in fact the soviets were probably worse and the khmer rouge too. If you read my whole post you will see that I said that. The symbol itself (hammer and sickle) was not used to fire up hatred, I didn't say the hatred was not there. I also said it was a moot point if you were on the receiving end of either regime.

You could, equally correctly, point out the horrifying atrocities carried out under the Union flag of my own country and those facts would be undeniable but would not change what the Union flag represents, which is a political union of England Scotland and Ireland.

What is carried out under a flag does not tell you anything about what the symbols on the flag mean.

And for the record, someone different from me is still my brother/sister (ie human!)

and no, I'm not a communist. "

I disagree. I think the symbol was used for that purpose. To justify that you kill people who wear glasses (obviously capitalists) or people who can't climb a coconut tree (obviously capitalists).

Never thought you are communist (I don't know you therefore I can not assume who you are).

As I said I put both crimes on the same level.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Brunus

[Tilokarat]

Pol Pot never used the hammer and sickle symbol/flag. The flag of the Khmer Rouge had Angkor Wat on it.

Yes, the Communists in the Soviet Union and China were better at murdering their own people than the Nazis; nevertheless, the Nazis targeted a single people, the Jews, for extermination whereas the Communist murderers targeted any perceived or real enemy. Thus, in general, the Nazis killed people for who they were. The Communists killed people for what they thought.

[bifftastic]

"yes, as i said, the regimes are on the same level of brutality, in fact the soviets were probably worse and the khmer rouge too. If you read my whole post you will see that I said that. The symbol itself (hammer and sickle) was not used to fire up hatred, I didn't say the hatred was not there. I also said it was a moot point if you were on the receiving end of either regime.

You could, equally correctly, point out the horrifying atrocities carried out under the Union flag of my own country and those facts would be undeniable but would not change what the Union flag represents, which is a political union of England Scotland and Ireland.

What is carried out under a flag does not tell you anything about what the symbols on the flag mean.

And for the record, someone different from me is still my brother/sister (ie human!)

and no, I'm not a communist. "

I disagree. I think the symbol was used for that purpose. To justify that you kill people who wear glasses (obviously capitalists) or people who can't climb a coconut tree (obviously capitalists).

Never thought you are communist (I don't know you therefore I can not assume who you are).

As I said I put both crimes on the same level.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago

[Brunus]

Sorry I can't paste it. Just check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Kampuchea

Pol Pot never used that symbol?

[endure]

Pol Pot never used the hammer and sickle symbol/flag. The flag of the Khmer Rouge had Angkor Wat on it.

Yes, the Communists in the Soviet Union and China were better at murdering their own people than the Nazis; nevertheless, the Nazis targeted a single people,

The Nazis targeted Jews, Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs and Soviet prisoners of war, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholic clergy, people with disabilities. They all went to the concentration camps.

[Brunus]

Pol Pot never used the hammer and sickle symbol/flag. The flag of the Khmer Rouge had Angkor Wat on it.

Yes, the Communists in the Soviet Union and China were better at murdering their own people than the Nazis; nevertheless, the Nazis targeted a single people, the Jews, for extermination whereas the Communist murderers targeted any perceived or real enemy. Thus, in general, the Nazis killed people for who they were. The Communists killed people for what they thought.

My grandpa was no Jew, no Gypsy and he was white. He fought in the Resistance. He was a good communist and he has been executed. I think he would feel sick if he could see what the ideals he died for did to human race. He was executed by the nazis because he was an enemy.

No nazis killed somebody because they wear glasses or can't climb a coconut tree.

I am not justifying them. Just report facts

[Harcourt]

dumball

I have no sympathy for the nazis. I have no sympathy for communists either. My point is that both symbols should be treated the same way. So if you allow someone to proudly say he is a communist you should allow somebody to proudly say he is a nazi. I personally wouldn't allow none of them.

My grandmother hates nazis but she moved on. She is 90 and happy. She told me once that she won't allow her hate towards them to make her become like them.

How do you feel about the stars and stripes? Many see that as a symbol for gross mass murder too, and not from generations old history but current day.

[Tilokarat]

Whoops...thanks Brunus and Endure.

Endure, I know about the others on the Nazi hate list.

Brunus, I did not know about the party flag, I was thinking about the national flag. Thanks for the information.

[Brunus]

dumball

I have no sympathy for the nazis. I have no sympathy for communists either. My point is that both symbols should be treated the same way. So if you allow someone to proudly say he is a communist you should allow somebody to proudly say he is a nazi. I personally wouldn't allow none of them.

My grandmother hates nazis but she moved on. She is 90 and happy. She told me once that she won't allow her hate towards them to make her become like them.

How do you feel about the stars and stripes? Many see that as a symbol for gross mass murder too, and not from generations old history but current day.

I don't think my feelings about USA current policies are relevant in this topic. I can say that they helped us to get rid of nazis. And I am glad of it

[Brunus]

Whoops...thanks Brunus and Endure.

Endure, I know about the others on the Nazi hate list.

Brunus, I did not know about the party flag, I was thinking about the national flag. Thanks for the information.

Many people don't know that. That's my point

[Harcourt]

dumball

I have no sympathy for the nazis. I have no sympathy for communists either. My point is that both symbols should be treated the same way. So if you allow someone to proudly say he is a communist you should allow somebody to proudly say he is a nazi. I personally wouldn't allow none of them.

My grandmother hates nazis but she moved on. She is 90 and happy. She told me once that she won't allow her hate towards them to make her become like them.

How do you feel about the stars and stripes? Many see that as a symbol for gross mass murder too, and not from generations old history but current day.

I don't think my feelings about USA current policies are relevant in this topic. I can say that they helped us to get rid of nazis. And I am glad of it

The OP is about Thai's and their "ignorance". You went on to compare another symbol (communist) and tried to draw a comparison with the evil behind the symbols. I merely point out that you overlooked a third symbol that carries connotations of evil for many people. Now you actually seem to defend that symbol.

That's fine, many people will.....which makes my point; that it is silly to get outraged at a group of people, in this case the OP's teachers, simply because they do not hold the same regard for a symbol that you hold.

Are Thais that hold sports days wearing swastikas ignorant or validly indifferent?

Why should Thais hold the swastika in the same regard as you? Why should Iranian students hold the stars and stripes in the same regard as you?

We in the West often have a very egocentric worldview.

[Brunus]

My point is that the Thai "ignorance" on this symbol is equal to their "ignorance" to the other symbol. Similar contest, similar atrocities. What USA are doing now is another contest. I don't want to be off topic. So if you want my opinion on this topic make a new thread (is that English? I am not sure about spelling) I will be happy to give you my point of view. I would say the same if Thai students would wear Pol Pot symbols

[Harcourt]

My point is that the Thai "ignorance" on this symbol is equal to their "ignorance" to the other symbol. Similar contest, similar atrocities. What USA are doing now is another contest. I don't want to be off topic. So if you want my opinion on this topic make a new thread (is that English? I am not sure about spelling) I will be happy to give you my point of view. I would say the same if Thai students would wear Pol Pot symbols

You miss my point completely. I am not suggesting talking about American atrocities. I am suggesting that symbols hold different meaning depending on your world view.

You seem to think Thais should hold the same view of the symbols for Pol Pot, communism, and Nazism as you.

To suggest that they look at the stars and stripes with the same view as Libyans, we both would say is ridiculous, surely? So why should they look at the swastika any differently than they do?

[wolf5370]

The OP is talking about the Nazi symbol, not the hammer and sickle, not ancient Indian look-a-likes, no the Union Jack or the star and stripes. Saying that one is worse than the other is irrelevent surely, two wrongs (or more for that) don't make a right.

If the iconology is being used to glorify Naziism, and thus perhaps its message, then it is wrong (as the message was evil) - if its just a pretty pattern on a T-Shirt then its just ignorant. Schools should be aware that such iconology would be detrimental (and likely to be picked up in the world's press) and thus should change it.

If its to be worn for historical reasosn (such as a WW2 themed day), then its simply history and all I can say to that is "lest we forget".

Thais in general know very little about history, even their own history, let alone world history. I once had a discussion with a group of Thai friends in the UK - all educated - and none of them realised that they were on the loosing side in WW2 (They all though they were on the same side as Britain and America). I had a Christmas quiz for my students (college level kids) a week ago (or thereabouts). Strangely they knew who Cleopatra was, but could not name King Chulalongkorn's (one of the most famous Kings in Thai history) father!

Edited December 30, 2009 by wolf5370

[Harcourt]

The OP is talking about the Nazi symbol, not the hammer and sickle, not ancient Indian look-a-likes, no the Union Jack or the star and stripes. Saying that one is worse than the other is irrelevent surely, two wrongs (or more for that) don't make a right.

Yes, I agree.

If the iconology is being used to glorify Naziism, and thus perhaps its message, then it is wrong (as the message was evil) - if its just a pretty pattern on a T-Shirt then its just ignorant. Schools should be aware that such iconology would be detrimental (and likely to be picked up in the world's press) and thus should change it.

I disagree. "Evil" is a matter of opinion. This is why I use the stars and stripes: many people say America's actions are evil.....see, it's an opinion. But should Thais be told not to wear the red, white, and blue symbol? No, of course not, so why not wear the swastika. It has no bearing on them.

If its to be worn for historical reasosn (such as a WW2 themed day), then its simply history and all I can say to that is "lest we forget".

Thais in general know very little about history, even their own history, let alone world history. I once had a discussion with a group of Thai friends in the UK - all educated - and none of them realised that they were on the loosing side in WW2 (They all though they were on the same side as Britain and America). I had a Christmas quiz for my students (college level kids) a week ago (or thereabouts). Strangely they knew who Cleopatra was, but could not name King Chulalongkorn's (one of the most famous Kings in Thai history) father!

I can empathise.

[Brunus]

My point is that the Thai "ignorance" on this symbol is equal to their "ignorance" to the other symbol. Similar contest, similar atrocities. What USA are doing now is another contest. I don't want to be off topic. So if you want my opinion on this topic make a new thread (is that English? I am not sure about spelling) I will be happy to give you my point of view. I would say the same if Thai students would wear Pol Pot symbols

You miss my point completely. I am not suggesting talking about American atrocities. I am suggesting that symbols hold different meaning depending on your world view.

You seem to think Thais should hold the same view of the symbols for Pol Pot, communism, and Nazism as you.

To suggest that they look at the stars and stripes with the same view as Libyans, we both would say is ridiculous, surely? So why should they look at the swastika any differently than they do?

Well. In Italy you can't show nazi or fascist symbols (against the laW). But you can proudly show communist symbols. The reason is officially "nazis killed a lot of people here, communists didn't (HERE)" more or less. Which is true . In Italy nazis killed a lot of innocent people and communists helped to get rid of them.

I don't think that this happened to Thailand. They have no idea what nazism or fascism was. But considering they are so close to Cambodia or China, they should know what communists can do. But probably they don't.

As I told you as an Italian I should see nazi symbols bad but communist symbols ok. That is what they do in Italy. But I have my own brain that allows me to get information and to decide by myself. And I think that both of them are on the same level.

[wolf5370]

....snip....

If the iconology is being used to glorify Naziism, and thus perhaps its message, then it is wrong (as the message was evil) - if its just a pretty pattern on a T-Shirt then its just ignorant. Schools should be aware that such iconology would be detrimental (and likely to be picked up in the world's press) and thus should change it.

I disagree. "Evil" is a matter of opinion. This is why I use the stars and stripes: many people say America's actions are evil.....see, it's an opinion. But should Thais be told not to wear the red, white, and blue symbol? No, of course not, so why not wear the swastika. It has no bearing on them.

....snip....

I think few people would regard the Nazi message as anything other than evil, whereas most would consider the message that comes with the stars and stripes (freedom etc) is far from evil. The message may not be true (that certainly is subjective) and the country's actions may or may not be in keeping with that message, but the message is what is given by a symbol. I really don't think we can confuse what the emotions that Nazi symbolism induces with the star spangled banner.

Edited December 30, 2009 by wolf5370