Installing Cng On A Truck

[garyk]

As I bought a fairly new truck at an auction. I was thinking of modifying to CNG. I have read if mixed properly it is no problem. I see many big diesels here that have converted.

It will void the warrenty if i do...... But the truck is sound and since i bought it cheap i do not have many concerns about this.

Anyway. I have heard not to do it and it will hurt the engin by a local guy. But i see it in some trucks and do not understand the concern.

Fill me in on the details and if it is a good option or not? I have a Ford Ranger with the 2.5 DuroTorq engin in it.

Thanks in advance.

[katabeachbum]

Can run CNG mixed 50% without problems. However do some calculations. Chevy diesel/CNG brakes even at 160k km if run constantly on 50% CNG. CNG is often not available, so this fiure is higher in real life.

[kartman]

I would have thought to look at the cost breakeven point for the KM's you do and anticipated length of ownership, unless the conversions are a lot cheaper than a couple of years ago i think only viable for high km commercial use, and it won't be worth any more perhaps less due to the local mindset as you have already found out.

[gregb]

Everyone here is so negative, I am going to take the opposite side of the argument.

Let me start by conceding there are problems with the conversion. I personally do not have a diesel conversion, but I do run an NGV vehicle with spark ignition, and have had many conversations with people who do this day in and day out.

First, understand that it is quite possible to run up to 80% gas under optimal conditions. All you really need is enough diesel to ignite the gas mixture. The engine monitors required for this are expensive however, and they generally are not used in Thailand. The kits used over here are less advanced (read cheaper), and tend to keep the ratio much lower than this for practical reasons.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that a higher amount of diesel in the mix implies less heat, and heat is your primary enemy. The disadvantage is higher operating costs because diesel is more expensive than CNG. This limits the effectiveness of installation on diesel engines except where fuel usage is extremely high, such as someone who drives alot, or has a very big engine that drinks fuel.

The engine itself will experience 3 primary problems due to the additional heat associated with CNG. It can burn your head gasket, it will cause premature wearing of your valves, and it can destroy your piston liners. Luckily, while these would all be devastating problems in the West, over here such issues are usually settled for under 15,000 baht. You should assume you will need at least 1 such overhaul during the period you are using CNG, and simply add this to the cost of the modification when doing your math.

When I decided to upgrade my car to use NGV, I had pundits coming out of the woodwork to tell me how bad this was. "It will reduce your resale value 30% I was told." Really? I responded by telling this particular person (a well respected, wealthy Thai mind you) that I knew dozens of people who were on a waiting list to get the conversion done, and begged him to tell me where all these underpriced cars were being sold, because I could sell them at a premium and we could make a fortune.

You could hear crickets chirping. The fact is, the whole argument of lower resale value is hogwash. At worst it will add no additional value to your car, and at best you could get nearly the full value of the conversion back when you sell. If you take care of the engine, it will not be an issue.

The source of the "it will lower your resale value" rumor comes from the fact that in the old days, many people disconnected their odometers, and it was assumed that an LPG conversion (note, not CNG but LPG) was only used by people who put extremely high mileage on their vehicle. Newer, modern, electronic odometers are not that easy to fool, and fuel prices have increased to the point where many normal people are making this switch. This lower resale value is now nothing more than an urban legend, but it will take a while for it to filter out of the average Thai's consciousness.

The nice thing about a diesel conversion in a truck is that you can get a really big tank in the bed. I urge you to get the biggest one you can if you decide to do this. The NGV pumps upcountry have an annoying tendency to be out of gas when you most need them, and there are several places in the country where CNG simply isn't available at all. If you are going to do the conversion, get the biggest tank you can. 2 or more of them if you can afford it. Your tank can never be too big.

As for price, fuel prices are heading up again, yet NGV is staying stubbornly at 8.50 in BKK up to 10.34 in Chiang Mai. The government has never raised it no matter how loudly they have yelled (and they've been yelling for almost 3 years about it), and it does not appear that the situation is going to change soon. Thousands of large transport vehicles that are critical to distribution of commodities around the country have converted, and raising NGV prices to 12 baht as has been threatened would target the most sensitive industries and kill the economy. It is the large fuel users who have disproportionately switched to NGV, so raising this would necessarily knock out the most critical links in the economy. If the government want to pass the energy burden onto someone, NGV is the last place they will strike.

My recommendation is to do it and don't look back. It's a great feeling when I pull away from the pump and pay 150 baht to fill up. By contrast, when I have to pay 1000 baht for gasahol 91 I feel physical pain, as if that 1000 baht note was surgically removed from my person without anaesthesia. You obviously have to do the math to make sure it makes sense based on your driving profile, but if you can justify it, then absolutely go for it.

People who tell you not to are just jealous.

[Bpraim1]

I run LPG diesel mix on my navara

Kit cost me 20k out of USA and installed myself.

along with better fuel econ, came lumps of power and no more black smoke.

No problems yet.

[katabeachbum]

I run LPG diesel mix on my navara

Kit cost me 20k out of USA and installed myself.

along with better fuel econ, came lumps of power and no more black smoke.

No problems yet.

LPG mixed with diesel is pure advantage.

CNG is much more expensive to install, wears the engine more quickly, and needs very large tanks to povide CNG range more than 200 km

[soundman]

I run LPG diesel mix on my navara

Kit cost me 20k out of USA and installed myself.

along with better fuel econ, came lumps of power and no more black smoke.

No problems yet.

Are there kits available in Thailand?

[Bpraim1]

I don't know for sure if there are kits available here.

i got mine from an old parts dealer I used to buy from.

I got knock only 1200bht duty, and the unit cost me $650 us.

Took about 2hrs to unstall

I did see a kit that a friend had and it looked very close to the same, he got it from Australia but paid $1200 au for it.

I'm sure if you know some LPG dealer/installer you may be able to piece one together cheaply.

[Soutpeel]

i got mine from an old parts dealer I used to buy from.

I'm sure if you know some LPG dealer/installer you may be able to piece one together cheaply.

Now there is a bit a scary advice, Flammable, explosive gases installed cheaply....

[katabeachbum]

i got mine from an old parts dealer I used to buy from.

I'm sure if you know some LPG dealer/installer you may be able to piece one together cheaply.

Now there is a bit a scary advice, Flammable, explosive gases installed cheaply....

I v seen installations with waterhoses for LPG supply

[gregb]

I run LPG diesel mix on my navara

Kit cost me 20k out of USA and installed myself.

along with better fuel econ, came lumps of power and no more black smoke.

No problems yet.

LPG mixed with diesel is pure advantage.

CNG is much more expensive to install, wears the engine more quickly, and needs very large tanks to povide CNG range more than 200 km

No argument here, but do keep in mind that it takes about 1.9 liters of LPG to match the energy content in 1 kg of CNG. Since CNG is currently selling at 8.5 baht/kg, and LPG at about 12 baht/liter, that makes LPG 2.7 times more expensive than NGV.

Put another way, it takes about 1.6 liters of LPG to match 1 liter of diesel, and only .85 kg of NGV. Thus, the relative costs are (adjusting everything to be equivalent to 1 liter of diesel at today's pump prices):

NGV: 7.23 baht

LPG: 19.2 baht

Diesel: 26.59 baht

Depending on how much you drive, NGV can provide significant savings even with the higher conversion costs vs. LPG. LPG prices are also constantly under threat of being increased, while NGV has been extremely stable. These are all things to keep in mind when making your decision.

BTW, both LPG and CNG conversions require annual safety inspections from the government to legally drive your vehicle on the road using an alternative fuel. If your conversion is from anyone other than a licensed installation shop, the government may give you grief with this check. Best ask the inspection station in your area first before making any decisions about this.

[garyk]

Interesting. I will ask the guys at the conversion place tomorrow the cost and see if they address any concerns.

I would like to thank every one for there opions.

This is a great place for negative and positive feedback.

I will post when i know the costs.

[soundman]

No argument here, but do keep in mind that it takes about 1.9 liters of LPG to match the energy content in 1 kg of CNG. Since CNG is currently selling at 8.5 baht/kg, and LPG at about 12 baht/liter, that makes LPG 2.7 times more expensive than NGV.

Put another way, it takes about 1.6 liters of LPG to match 1 liter of diesel, and only .85 kg of NGV. Thus, the relative costs are (adjusting everything to be equivalent to 1 liter of diesel at today's pump prices):

NGV: 7.23 baht

LPG: 19.2 baht

Diesel: 26.59 baht

Depending on how much you drive, NGV can provide significant savings even with the higher conversion costs vs. LPG. LPG prices are also constantly under threat of being increased, while NGV has been extremely stable. These are all things to keep in mind when making your decision.

BTW, both LPG and CNG conversions require annual safety inspections from the government to legally drive your vehicle on the road using an alternative fuel. If your conversion is from anyone other than a licensed installation shop, the government may give you grief with this check. Best ask the inspection station in your area first before making any decisions about this.

Do you have a study that you have quoted from or are you talking from personal experience?

The reason I ask is that people I know who run CNG claim that for what would run 10 litres of diesel (about 0.7 kg?? so say 7 kg's of fuel) they use 12 - 15 kg's of CNG which would make the actual comparisson cost in the region of 15B per kilogram for CNG.

[katabeachbum]

No argument here, but do keep in mind that it takes about 1.9 liters of LPG to match the energy content in 1 kg of CNG. Since CNG is currently selling at 8.5 baht/kg, and LPG at about 12 baht/liter, that makes LPG 2.7 times more expensive than NGV.

Put another way, it takes about 1.6 liters of LPG to match 1 liter of diesel, and only .85 kg of NGV. Thus, the relative costs are (adjusting everything to be equivalent to 1 liter of diesel at today's pump prices):

NGV: 7.23 baht

LPG: 19.2 baht

Diesel: 26.59 baht

Depending on how much you drive, NGV can provide significant savings even with the higher conversion costs vs. LPG. LPG prices are also constantly under threat of being increased, while NGV has been extremely stable. These are all things to keep in mind when making your decision.

BTW, both LPG and CNG conversions require annual safety inspections from the government to legally drive your vehicle on the road using an alternative fuel. If your conversion is from anyone other than a licensed installation shop, the government may give you grief with this check. Best ask the inspection station in your area first before making any decisions about this.

Do you have a study that you have quoted from or are you talking from personal experience?

The reason I ask is that people I know who run CNG claim that for what would run 10 litres of diesel (about 0.7 kg?? so say 7 kg's of fuel) they use 12 - 15 kg's of CNG which would make the actual comparisson cost in the region of 15B per kilogram for CNG.

second the consumption of CNG, approx double amount/kg/litres CNG compared to diesel.

For LPG I partly disagree.

Mixing LPG with 50% diesel is very efficient. The LPG cools down the fuel before combustion, giving more power and improved milage. Done on a V8 Ford 7,3 turbodiesel, power increased with approx 50% and fuel reduced with approx 50%. Figures approx since I did this like 11 years ago.

[Bpraim1]

i got mine from an old parts dealer I used to buy from.

I'm sure if you know some LPG dealer/installer you may be able to piece one together cheaply.

Now there is a bit a scary advice, Flammable, explosive gases installed cheaply....

Just to clarify, What I ment was,

I ordered the Lpg kit from an old friend that works for an after market diesel engine upgrade company.

BullyDog they are from the usa

[gregb]

No argument here, but do keep in mind that it takes about 1.9 liters of LPG to match the energy content in 1 kg of CNG. Since CNG is currently selling at 8.5 baht/kg, and LPG at about 12 baht/liter, that makes LPG 2.7 times more expensive than NGV.

Put another way, it takes about 1.6 liters of LPG to match 1 liter of diesel, and only .85 kg of NGV. Thus, the relative costs are (adjusting everything to be equivalent to 1 liter of diesel at today's pump prices):

NGV: 7.23 baht

LPG: 19.2 baht

Diesel: 26.59 baht

Depending on how much you drive, NGV can provide significant savings even with the higher conversion costs vs. LPG. LPG prices are also constantly under threat of being increased, while NGV has been extremely stable. These are all things to keep in mind when making your decision.

BTW, both LPG and CNG conversions require annual safety inspections from the government to legally drive your vehicle on the road using an alternative fuel. If your conversion is from anyone other than a licensed installation shop, the government may give you grief with this check. Best ask the inspection station in your area first before making any decisions about this.

Do you have a study that you have quoted from or are you talking from personal experience?

The reason I ask is that people I know who run CNG claim that for what would run 10 litres of diesel (about 0.7 kg?? so say 7 kg's of fuel) they use 12 - 15 kg's of CNG which would make the actual comparisson cost in the region of 15B per kilogram for CNG.

I am specifically referring to the specific, physical properties of the fuel, namely the energy content in the C-C and C-H bonds of the different carbon chains. You can google "lower heating value" together with NGV and diesel to check the figures for yourself. Here is the first link that comes up on Google when I do it:

http://www.rasoenterprises.com/index.php?o...l&Itemid=41

They state .65 kg/liter, but they are comparing to gasoline rather than diesel which is more energetic. The number I remember coming up with several years ago when I did the calculation myself for diesel was .85, so that is what I use. If you can show my math to be incorrect I will happily use a different number.

What I can tell you from careful, personal driving experience is that I get 16.0 km/liter of standard 91 gasoline (not gasahol, which is about 3% less), and 19.7 km/kg of NGV. This number was calculated over a 6 month period about 2 years ago. I believe the number I am getting on the NGV side is too low (It is certainly now where close to the .65 they state in the link above. It is closer to about .81) . I recently changed the valves in my engine and have noticed my range on NGV improving, but I have not had the chance to do a controlled study so I can't say for certain it's any better. The numbers I stated were taken over multiple trips on flat terrain in Issan with the tires inflated to 38 PSI and the air conditioning set at 28 in a 2003 Toyota Altis where the speed was kept between 99 and 103 kph.

For completeness I have to say I have no personal experience with LPG. I am basing my numbers strictly on the theoretical energy content of the fuel. katabeachbum has stated that there is a secondary effect that results in an efficiency enhancement with using LPG. It is beyond my capability to either confirm or deny this, so I would recommend you do your own diligence.

[soundman]

They state .65 kg/liter, but they are comparing to gasoline rather than diesel which is more energetic. The number I remember coming up with several years ago when I did the calculation myself for diesel was .85, so that is what I use. If you can show my math to be incorrect I will happily use a different number.

What I can tell you from careful, personal driving experience is that I get 16.0 km/liter of standard 91 gasoline (not gasahol, which is about 3% less), and 19.7 km/kg of NGV. This number was calculated over a 6 month period about 2 years ago. I believe the number I am getting on the NGV side is too low (It is certainly now where close to the .65 they state in the link above. It is closer to about .81) . I recently changed the valves in my engine and have noticed my range on NGV improving, but I have not had the chance to do a controlled study so I can't say for certain it's any better. The numbers I stated were taken over multiple trips on flat terrain in Issan with the tires inflated to 38 PSI and the air conditioning set at 28 in a 2003 Toyota Altis where the speed was kept between 99 and 103 kph.

According to your link:

How is natural gas sold? In a retail service station, natural gas is sold by mass in kilograms. With on-site fuelling, it is typically sold by volume in cubic metres or in units of energy called gigajoules. In terms of heating values,

• 1 kilogram of natural gas is equivalent to 1.52 litres of gasoline
  
• 1 cubic metre of natural gas is equivalent to 1.09 litres of gasoline
  
• 1 gigajoule of natural gas is equivalent to 28.85 litres of gasoline
  

You should be achieving 24.32km per kg gasoline equivalent (16*1.52=24.32) and you are actually achieving 19.7 km/kg. Bit on the low side, just like everybody who I have talked to about CNG.

16km/L? What car are you driving? Vios/Altis? My Camry only gets 12.5km/L and my Fortuner gets 10.5km/L approx. highway driving figures.

Everything you wanted to know about fuels and conversions. Here.

From above.

NATURAL GAS AND OTHER ENERGY EQUIVALENTS

The following are quick-reference equivalents. All figures are APROXIMATE

VALUES only for use where precision is not required. They are based on:

(i) for natural gas:

1,000 Btu/ft³ = 9,500 kcal/m³ (Groningen gas 8,400 kcal/m³)

(ii) for LPG:

an assumed 50/50 propane/butane mixture with ® or (p) indicating

that the LPG is either refrigerated or pressurised.

(iii) calorific values, MMBtu (gross):

per tonne - LNG 51.8; LPG 47.3; oil 42.3; coal 27.3

per barrel - LNG 3.8; LPG ® 4.45; LPG (p) 4.1; oil 5.8

per cubic metre - LNG 23.8; LPG ® 28; LPG (p) 25.8

According to the above, "Rich" LNG does have more calorific content.

However, to apply that to converted output as a straight calculation is short sighted without taking into account factors such as engine design, tuning etc.

[tigerbeer]

some really good discussions here on fuel differences.

i have been driving my Honda Civic 07 fitted with an NGV conversion for about 2 and half years now. I drive about 100km's per day on average and had broken even for the kit within 6 months. Which cost me 55k Baht. I get a range of between 200-250kms per fill up of about THB150. You guys do maths well, not so much for me but I am assuming a savings of between 70% to at least 80% over 91 gasohol. There are 4 NGV stations here in Chiang Mai and i am really close to the new one at Chareon Muang near the SUperhighway Rd. Filling up is super easy without having to go through any queues. I drive to Bangkok and up about 3-4 times a year and it cost me about 450 baht one way. 3 kids, the missus, a maid and me and its a bargain isnt it? Fueling stations the whole way up and down. Definitely consider NGV cause the govt are really trying to promote this fuel over LPG and PTT is doing their best to get ready for this.

Then again it really depends how much km's you do per day, month, year or whatever. LPG might suit some of you more if you do 20-30kms per day cause its a lot cheaper on the kit. But seriously consider NGV if you do higher mileage and do a lot of inter state driving.

TB..

[katabeachbum]

some really good discussions here on fuel differences.

i have been driving my Honda Civic 07 fitted with an NGV conversion for about 2 and half years now. I drive about 100km's per day on average and had broken even for the kit within 6 months. Which cost me 55k Baht. I get a range of between 200-250kms per fill up of about THB150. You guys do maths well, not so much for me but I am assuming a savings of between 70% to at least 80% over 91 gasohol. There are 4 NGV stations here in Chiang Mai and i am really close to the new one at Chareon Muang near the SUperhighway Rd. Filling up is super easy without having to go through any queues. I drive to Bangkok and up about 3-4 times a year and it cost me about 450 baht one way. 3 kids, the missus, a maid and me and its a bargain isnt it? Fueling stations the whole way up and down. Definitely consider NGV cause the govt are really trying to promote this fuel over LPG and PTT is doing their best to get ready for this.

Then again it really depends how much km's you do per day, month, year or whatever. LPG might suit some of you more if you do 20-30kms per day cause its a lot cheaper on the kit. But seriously consider NGV if you do higher mileage and do a lot of inter state driving.

TB..

100 km a day average is 36.000 km a year.

petrol only would have been 36.000 km a 2,5 baht = 90.000 baht

CNG only is according to you 150 baht/200km = 0,75baht a 36.000 km = 27.000 baht

kit 55.000 baht, I would say brake even in one year. Not bad.

For a diesel truck, the figures would be approx half, or double the time for break even, since it can run max 50% CNG.

Most people are unable to run 100% CNG like you, cause CNG is not easily available in other parts of the country.

Calculating break even, enginewear is to be considered. 200k km on CNG is considered doable, 400k km on petrol.

I guess CNG performance is another matter, not so important to those who want to save on fuel