Forgiveness Vs Righteous Revenge

[stickyrice]

I myself am a Chinese American, raised in Christian schools. Till just lately, I have always held that westerners (particularly Christians) intellectually place forgiveness at a relatively high place over revenge (but in practice seldom actually forgive the perpetrator of the misdeed for the perpetrators good, rather only forgive for their own emotional well being).

Whereas, I considered eastern thought more to value righteous revenge. In fact, revenge is pretty much the primary theme in 90% of Chinese action movies. (Although, I guess it would be a really bad move if it went like ... "You have desecrated the temple and killed my family, now you must DIE .... oh never mind i forgive you.)

However, lately, I have been surprised lately hearing some local (Thai) gossip, how often both male and female Thai spouses will forgive their partners for their sexual indiscretions and other bad behaviors. Not every time, but, a LOT more than I would.

So ... after all that ... (sorry so long), do you think Thai people are more forgiving then their western counterparts? Or do you think they can just put up with more naught behavior?

[robblok]

Is Taxin forgiven ? No .. so i think Thais hold a grudge too you see it a lot in politics here. If you dont vote for a side and that side wins you loose a lot. So revenge is there too. I think revenge is a human thing.

[ArthurPewty]

I had to lie down after I read that Christians are forgiving.

[Dakhar]

i think it depends on what the deed is and what culture is used to judge the deed.

Culture A) husband rutting around while the wife deep down inside would prefer he would do so because she finds sex to be a chore, much like doing the laundry, which is demeaning and labor set aside for maids....

Culture The husband rutting around in a culture in which women take deep emptioanal pride and satisfaction in pleasing their husbands sexual needs

I would think that situation B would be the worst offense of the two.

[highchol]

answer to your question, no.

could I ask one!

the reason ( if any ) in your choice of words about your self description as chinese American?

[givenall]

What I have found forgiveness is in the play as self-interest and/or selfishness. In case of partners, I have seen many time the they forgive each other because they need something from each other, could be money, income, etc.

But overall the revenge is more pronounces over here than in west. Westerns just move on and revenge is consider waste of time and effort

[MrJohnson]

Nothing inspires forgiveness quite like revenge. - Scott Adams

[stickyrice]

the reason ( if any ) in your choice of words about your self description as chinese American?

Oh, I mention that I am a Chinese American because I think Americans hold forgiveness as a desirable virtue (but I think are not actually particularly forgiving in actual practice) and because I think Chinese seem to more value retribution.

I could be totally be wrong. This is merely based on casual observation and popular media.

For example, if you ever saw the excellent movie "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" In the end, the Male Protagonist dies and then the Female Proganist kills herself (both to be with her lover in death but also to affirm that she as to PAY for breaking the rules of society). I think the ending is typical for a Chinese film but if it was an American movie they might find some way to be forgiven and have a "happy ending." (not a massage happy ending ... a movie happy ending)

[h90]

I saw very different behavior both in Asia and Europe depending on the people not depending on the region or religion.

Maybe and just maybe (I could be wrong) in Asia they are a bit more outspoken about it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Does Christian doctrine ideally or in practice place such an emphasis on forgiveness? Does Buddhism downplay forgiveness? Newscaster Brett Hulme said that if Tiger Woods is a Buddhist, he ought to convert to Christianity, to receive forgiveness. I doubt that Buddhism downplays it that much. I doubt most believers of either faith practice it much.

[Portlandstone]

stickyrice, your points are well read, but I have to say that I was under the impression that SE Asians are regularly very revengeful particularly when they are spited in emotionally-invested relationships. If Thais are indeed very forgiving for unfaithfulness, then hel_l I have a lot of cheating to start doing, but when and if I have a Thai GF I am frankly afraid of what would happen. However I do see where you pick up on this "forgivefulness". I don't think that East Asians actually "forgive" through the heart but instead they "permit" something -- that is speaking of many facets of life in general, not particularly infidelity. I'm not so sure that this permission is written in stone, or more bluntly, I don't think it's a sign for me to relax when it's granted. Seems more like "lucky."

[Moonrakers]

Revenge: In bucket loads where 'losing face' is concerned.

Forgiveness: How can somebody be truly forgiven when they are still lying and denying any wrong doing?

[bina]

as noted in other threads, it would seem that the semitic religiouns notably christianity and judaism, talk about revenge and foregiveness(eye for eye etc), (forgive and turn the other cheek) , budhism doesnt talk bout revenge or foregiveness, budhism is about living properly, treating those around u properly and all the rest will follow... well very simplified but in a nutshell anyhow..

however, my personal experience is that thais DO revenge. they may do it subtley, they may be upfront about it, but it is a main part of their life... when it has to do with losing face.

here, where i live, revenge is very very pervasiive in the culture... whether physical (killings) or mental (getting back at someone thru gossip, ways of planning their downfall in a their career) and in that respect we are often considered an 'oriental' society as opposed to a 'western' society.

judaism even has a specific holidy (yom kippur) which in part is all about foregiveness, including religoius rites to 'cleanse' one of al their wrong doings (foregiving yourself) and getting foregivenss from others (all debts are considered wiped out )...

muslems have the 'sulha' which is also a ceremony between wronged parties, to officially make things right again, the meaning of the word literelly means 'foregiveness'...

oops, forgot my train of thought..

bina

israel

[MrHammer]

It's the face thing again. Not unlike vendetta in Sicily or honor killings in the Middle East. The motivation is the same. Not actually based on a moral right for revenge, but as a means to protecting ones honor. We used to have that in the West too about 1000 years ago.

I don't think the west is against revenge as such, but it has to be just revenge. Losing face is generally not seen as a reason to go postal. But vigilante behavior if you or your family has been attacked or hurt in some way, seems to be acceptable. The truth is that revenge or forgiveness are both egoistical actions.

[MJP]

Western society has been able to easily afford forgiveness . . . until recently. I wonder how this ethos will change with plunging economies?

[IanForbes]

I think it all depends on the individuals. Some people want instant revenge, but if given a little time will slowly forgive the other person. And, it all depends on the actual crime in the first place. I would never forgive anyone who harmed my family or friends. But, I have no animosity towards anyone who lives a life of crime. They will pay one way or another. I don't think there are any boundries with religion or country when it comes to forgiveness and revenge.

[PeaceBlondie]

The New Testament forbids Christians to take revenge, based on Old Testament commands, IMHO. It also commands unlimited forgiveness.

[GuestHouse]

I'd certainly agree that Christian teachings (The accounts of the Sermon on the mount from Mathew and Mark in particular) teach forgiveness - In direct contradiction and very specifically against the eye for an eye teaching of the Old Testament.

But it would be a mistake to think this is the only reference to forgiveness in western theology/philosophy. Predating the Christian influence we Greek and Roman teachings of forgiveness - Famously (or if you'll excuse the pun) classically from no other than Julius Caesar himself - renowned for his practice of forgiving enemies.

So I don't think we can say Western Forgiveness stems only from Christianity, it is far more broader than just that.

What is very curious about Thai revenge is that it often takes place months, or even years after the offense for which it is taking revenge.

I witnessed a Thai woman smash a car up outside of a house where she had years earlier had a humiliating breakup with the Farang who lived there. The only problem was she didn't know the Farang had since moved on - The car she wrecked belonged to a total stranger - a Thai who had her thrown in jail.

I put this down to the Thai cultural habit of internalizing a conflict - not reacting or responding at the time of an insult or injury but stewing on it until the pressure finally bursts and they go ape sh1t.

[GuestHouse]

The New Testament forbids Christians to take revenge, based on Old Testament commands, IMHO. It also commands unlimited forgiveness.

Correct, again Mathew and Mark, sermon on the mount.

It's curious that so many people are unable to distinguish between the Old and New Testaments when discussing what it is that Christianity teaches.

[PeaceBlondie]

After being put in Nazi extermination for hiding Jews, Connie ten Boom said they had to forgive the the Nazis, or else God would not forgive their sins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_boom

[geriatrickid]

The multiple references to various religious teachings are pie in the sky. Forgiveness is human nature and is more related to people's inherent psychology than anything else. It is much easier to unburden oneself with the act of forgiveness than to expend energy and resources in the carrying of a grudge. Those that are wired for efficiency and profitmaking will be more likely to forgive than those trapped in a world of frustration in which they cannot cope. To forgive is a statement of mastery, of self confidence and of power. Those that are secure and self confident are more likely to forgive. One should not confuse the act of remembering and the resultant cautious behaviour and the carrying of a grudge with the intent to do harm.

Mr. Guesthouse, please do not ever consider a job in comparative theology, because your interpretations are simplistic.

I'd certainly agree that Christian teachings (The accounts of the Sermon on the mount from Mathew and Mark in particular) teach forgiveness - In direct contradiction and very specifically against the eye for an eye teaching of the Old Testament.

But it would be a mistake to think this is the only reference to forgiveness in western theology/philosophy. Predating the Christian influence we Greek and Roman teachings of forgiveness - Famously (or if you'll excuse the pun) classically from no other than Julius Caesar himself - renowned for his practice of forgiving enemies.

So I don't think we can say Western Forgiveness stems only from Christianity, it is far more broader than just that.

What is very curious about Thai revenge is that it often takes place months, or even years after the offense for which it is taking revenge. I witnessed a Thai woman smash a car up outside of a house where she had years earlier had a humiliating breakup with the Farang who lived there. The only problem was she didn't know the Farang had since moved on - The car she wrecked belonged to a total stranger - a Thai who had her thrown in jail.

I put this down to the Thai cultural habit of internalizing a conflict - not reacting or responding at the time of an insult or injury but stewing on it until the pressure finally bursts and they go ape sh1t.

The Hebrew's talmud which we call the Bible's Old testament and which has been edited and horribly translated over the years to meet revisionist Church of Rome Christian political sentiments is not just about "an eye for an eye" preachings. While it is there, there is also an undercurrent of compassion and forgiveness. Bina explains the purpose of Yom Kippur ,which when adhered to can be an painful process for all those involved as it requires an admission of error and an acceptance of responsibility in addition to the practice of forgiveness. The undercurrent themes of the Old Testament are responsibility and obedience to the dictates of the Hebrew's deity. The New Testament goes from the touchie feelie views espoused in the gospel of Matthew to the fire and brimstone vengeance and damnation in the Book of Revelations. The fires of hel_l do not consume those that are sent, but scorch, sear, and burn for eternity and those that are sent there are doomed for eternity to pain. The followers of the Jewish faith do not believe in hel_l, which suggests to me that the reverse of your position is the reality.

The Thai lady's case you cite is the manifestation of mental illness and has nothing to do with Thai culture. It is no more specific to Thailand than anorexia is to the state of California.

[canuckamuck]

True forgiveness is a high road which most people lack the character and strength to follow.

I think Thailand has more ability to overlook corruption and lies, but less ability to overlook relational offenses.

Western countries have less corruption in the legal system and usually have constitutions that don't get changed as often as hairstyles. This gives the little guy an opportunity to see some justice. In Thailand justice is a pipe dream so overlooking is the only choice. Western efficiency in the legal system also makes revenge (outside the legal system) more difficult to get away with. Which forces westerners to overlook most relational offenses.

Overlooking is not forgiving.

[canuckamuck]

The Hebrew's talmud which we call the Bible's Old testament and which has been edited and horribly translated over the years to meet revisionist Church of Rome Christian political sentiments is not just about "an eye for an eye" preachings. While it is there, there is also an undercurrent of compassion and forgiveness. Bina explains the purpose of Yom Kippur ,which when adhered to can be an painful process for all those involved as it requires an admission of error and an acceptance of responsibility in addition to the practice of forgiveness. The undercurrent themes of the Old Testament are responsibility and obedience to the dictates of the Hebrew's deity. The New Testament goes from the touchie feelie views espoused in the gospel of Matthew to the fire and brimstone vengeance and damnation in the Book of Revelations. The fires of hel_l do not consume those that are sent, but scorch, sear, and burn for eternity and those that are sent there are doomed for eternity to pain. The followers of the Jewish faith do not believe in hel_l, which suggests to me that the reverse of your position is the reality.

Please show us some of the missed interpretations of the old testament in the new testament. Also please explain how non Catholic Christians are dictated to by the church in Rome.

Also, for your information Judaism uses the word Sheol which appears to have different treatment for the dead depending on whether the dead person was righteous or not. Christian hel_l expands on the theme and stresses that none have to go to hel_l, it is their choice.

I think that you as well should avoid teaching comparative religion.

[chriswatson]

I put this down to the Thai cultural habit of internalizing a conflict - not reacting or responding at the time of an insult or injury but stewing on it until the pressure finally bursts and they go ape sh1t.

Sorry Geriatrickid, although I liked your reply to Guesthouse, I've lost count of the times my wife turns a conversation about, oh I don't know, the price of eggs, into an argument about something I may have said/done about six weeks ago and which has never even been mentioned by her before. I usually have no recollection of actually having said what I was meant to have said or having done what I was supposed to have done.

And it's even worse when I finally do remember the incident, to discover my perceived slight to her is actually a misunderstanding and she's been suffering under the illusion of something I didn't mean for the past six weeks/months/years. And then we have an argument about that

I don't mind getting blamed for things I have done, but not too OK with getting blamed for something I haven't. Who is? I put this down to the usual cultural misunderstandings, face, often covering a lie with a bigger lie etc.

As for revenge vs. forgiveness. I think the stereotyping is quite true. I forgive her more than she forgives me, and I'm sure she'd want revenge if I ever stepped out of line

Edited January 11, 2010 by chriswatson

[apetley]

From my own western stance I will forgive when I get a sorry and an explanation as to why I have been shit on or why someone has mucked up.

[GuestHouse]

The multiple references to various religious teachings are pie in the sky. Forgiveness is human nature and is more related to people's inherent psychology than anything else.

While I absolutely agree that forgiving has a profound benefit for emotional and psychological well being, simple reason (and observation) demonstrates that it is not human nature to forgive - By reason the Benefit is counter intuitive - when someone hurts/injures you it is natural to develop and aversion fear or hatred of that person - not to do so would put the injured individual at risk of repeated injury.

By observation we see ample examples of Revenge in individuals and societies (and the damage that does) Honor Killings, Blood Feuds and Vendettas are a defining characteristic of some cultures Albania and the Philippines are two very good examples.

Some religions (and philosophies) teach directly against vengeance and promote forgiveness - They do this to vast swathes of their followers.

So while forgiving is definitely good for the emotional and psychological well being of individuals, and definitely good for societies, the evidence is that it is not natural and it is promoted (against the natural urge not to forgive) by some religions and philosophies.

So far from references to various religious teachings being pie in the sky, it seems some religions (and philosophies) have developed to understand that forgiving is good for individuals and society and should be promoted.

If you insist on Mathew's Gospel as being 'Touchy Feely' then I suspect a theological discussion on the Old/New Testament, Christianity/Judaism is pointless.

--------

I absolutely agree, the lady in the example I have given was probably suffering some emotional or psychological problem. But if you are dismissing the Thai cultural norm of internalizing conflicts and emotions as not a probable cause of her (suspected) emotional or psychological problem then you are stretching credibility.

I'll refer you to a search on 'Internalizing/Repressing emotions and psychological health'.

Repressing emotions is a Thai Cultural trait and Repressing Emotions is linked to mental health problems.

[cdnmatt]

Personally, I think Thais are quite vengeful. Always try to avoid any altercation with a Thai, because more than likely, it's not going to end well for you. I don't see forgiveness a whole lot, but moreso the next day they think, "fuc_k it, mai bpen rai". Doesn't mean they've forgiven the person, but just don't care enough to worry about it.

Edited January 11, 2010 by cdnmatt