Google Warns Of China Exit Over Hacking

[Crushdepth]

Asian growth in the internet is high if you look at statistics like 'number of users'. However, per capita penetration is very low compared to developed countries. And just because they're online doesn't mean they are spending money there. The $$$ are still in developed markets and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I also don't like Baidu's chances of competing in the global marketplace. They can't compete on technology and the only reason they succeed at home is because they are sheltered by the Chinese government.

[LaoPo]

1. Asian growth in the internet is high if you look at statistics like 'number of users'. However, per capita penetration is very low compared to developed countries. And just because they're online doesn't mean they are spending money there. The $$$ are still in developed markets and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

2. I also don't like Baidu's chances of competing in the global marketplace. They can't compete on technology and the only reason they succeed at home is because they are sheltered by the Chinese government.

1. I agree and how would that be ? maybe income ? Do you think the Asians will STAY poor forever ? I think you're wrong if you think that it will not change anytime soon.

2. I heard the same story more than 40 years ago, when the Japanese started to build (read: copy) almost everything, made in the west, back than.....and now ?

Can you imagine the west without Japanese cars, televisions, Canon, gadgets, Wii, Sony I could go on....I remember as it if was yesterday: People ridiculing Japanese products.

You better believe that the same will happen with Chinese products and inventions; have a trip to China and you will be

Warren Buffett is one of the few high rollers who noticed early on and he made a few $ Billions, buying shares in BYD; it's owner Wang Chunagfu, is the richest Billionaire in China.

Have a Google on BYD Company and tell your friends that next year the electrical cars from China will be rolling in the streets....

And Baidu? watch them, because you will be proven wrong.

China, like it or not, is the country and breeding ground of the new global companies and we better join them rather than to fight them.

I have been in many factories in my life, all over the world, including China, but if one hasn't been there you will not believe the GIGANTIC amounts of products they are producing; there is NO country on earth able to compete with those enormous producing facilities.

The amount of people and products is simply mind boggling and Baidu and it's course to the future is no exception. Next to that, the Chinese are extremely hard workers and make longer hours than most western workers and companies; I know for a fact.

My wife's business is able to contact people 7 days a week, including evenings and early morning; try that in the west!

As an example: I needed an English>Chinese translation fo 3 x A4 pages...fast.

You know what? I had it done within 12 hours -this weekend- by a professional Chinese translator................. in Vancouver of all places which is -9 hours from me and I am -7 hours from China and sent it 03.00AM my time to China.

Go figure the time I won!

No way I could have done that in my own country.

LaoPo

[nikster]

I also don't like Baidu's chances of competing in the global marketplace. They can't compete on technology and the only reason they succeed at home is because they are sheltered by the Chinese government.

Agreed. Why would anyone use Baidu? Because it knows the Chinese internet market and censorship in and out and has friends in the Chinese government? None of that is an argument for success outside China.

Mind you I think Google will compete in China, it will remain strategically important but they may just turn off censoring and hope that enough people get through the firewalls to make it all worth while, or that eventually the firewalls go away - I mean it's clear that the firewall will at some point fall, it's just unclear whether it will take 5, 10, or 20 years. Which is similar to the timeline expected for China to fulfill its potential.

[LaoPo]

I also don't like Baidu's chances of competing in the global marketplace. They can't compete on technology and the only reason they succeed at home is because they are sheltered by the Chinese government.

Agreed. Why would anyone use Baidu? Because it knows the Chinese internet market and censorship in and out and has friends in the Chinese government? None of that is an argument for success outside China.

Mind you I think Google will compete in China, it will remain strategically important but they may just turn off censoring and hope that enough people get through the firewalls to make it all worth while, or that eventually the firewalls go away - I mean it's clear that the firewall will at some point fall, it's just unclear whether it will take 5, 10, or 20 years. Which is similar to the timeline expected for China to fulfill its potential.

Because China has now soared to 384 million Internet users which is 1/3 of the total population and still growing despite the control by Beijing.

People are hungry for news and sources and search for that on either Baidu or Google.

Having a share of 60%, Baidu counts for up to 230 million users and that daily/weekly/monthly. It adds up you know.

Your argument is indeed not an argument as why Baidu would have success outside China but the clients from mr. Japan didn't read nor spoke Japanese as well, back than, and nobody still does but they all buy Japanese.

It will be the same for the product "Baidu" and they will enter other Asian markets, no question about it, as they're doing now already in Japan; why would they enter the Japanese market (a "mere" 128 million people*) if Japan is already successful in everything they do and make ?

* In comparison: Japan has 128 million people versus Guangdong Province/China with 110 million* and that's just one (the largest) province. Meaning to say that the POTENTIAL of China, including for Baidu and Internet is so huge!

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_China...s_by_population

LaoPo

[thunder30101]

I never said anything in my post about money, valuation, shares or any of that stuff. Me thinks you are etiher chinese or live there. If you wish to support a company that has the ability to censor a large part of the worlds freedom you go right ahead and give them your money, then you can join the rest of the greedy people screwing this world up.

[LaoPo]

I never said anything in my post about money, valuation, shares or any of that stuff. Me thinks you are etiher chinese or live there. If you wish to support a company that has the ability to censor a large part of the worlds freedom you go right ahead and give them your money, then you can join the rest of the greedy people screwing this world up.

..what a friendly post.

I was trying to explain WHY your words: "Baidu will never get large outside of china or a few other asian markets...........snip" didn't make sense.

But, maybe you missed my meanings; that's quite possible of course; it does happen.

LaoPo

[thunder30101]

And maybe you missed my meaning in both posts. Or is it other people that just dont understand ?

[LaoPo]

And maybe you missed my meaning in both posts. Or is it other people that just dont understand ?

I got your point in both posts Sir but I'm afraid you didn't get mine.

Never mind. We'll see what will be the outcome of Google in China and Baidu in- and outside China, ok?

Let's wait and see in 5-10 years.

LaoPo

[dttk0009]

Idle threats.

[LaoPo]

Aha...

Google probing possible inside help on attack

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - Google is investigating whether one or more employees may have helped facilitate a cyber-attack that the U.S. search giant said it was a victim of in mid-December, two sources told Reuters on Monday.

Google, the world's most popular search engine, said last week it may pull out of the world's biggest Internet market by users after reporting it had been hit by a "sophisticated" cyber-attack on its network that resulted in theft of its intellectual property.

The sources, who are familiar with the situation, told Reuters that the attack, which targeted people who have access to specific parts of Google networks, may have been facilitated by people working in Google China's office.

"We're not commenting on rumor and speculation. This is an ongoing investigation, and we simply cannot comment on the details," a Google spokeswoman said.

Security analysts told Reuters the malicious software (malware) used in the Google attack was a modification of a Trojan called Hydraq. A Trojan is malware that, once inside a computer, allows someone unauthorized access. The sophistication in the attack was in knowing whom to attack, not the malware itself, the analysts said.

Local media, citing unnamed sources, reported that some Google China employees were denied access to internal networks after January 13, while some staff were put on leave and others transferred to different offices in Google's Asia Pacific operations. Google said it would not comment on its business operations.

TALKS SOON

Google, which has denied rumors that it has already decided to shut down its China offices, said on Monday it contacted the Chinese government last week after the announcement.

"We are going to have talks with them in the coming few days," Google said.

Google is also still in the process of scanning its internal networks since the cyber-attack in mid-December.

China has tried to play down Google's threat to leave, saying there are many ways to resolve the issue, but insisting all foreign companies, Google included, must abide by Chinese laws.

Washington said it was issuing a diplomatic note to China formally requesting an explanation for the attacks.

The Google issue risks becoming another irritant in China's relationship with the United States. Ties are already strained by arguments over the yuan currency's exchange rate, which U.S. critics say is unfairly low, trade protectionism and U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.

Washington has long been worried about Beijing's cyber-spying program. A congressional advisory panel said in November the Chinese government appeared increasingly to be penetrating U.S. computers to gather useful data for its military.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H1...usbeforethebell

Note: I was right, saying earlier the Chinese Google soup wasn't so hot...

LaoPo

[thunder30101]

Oh what a sage ye are, any tea leaf reading skills ? Anyway I thought we had to wait a few years for the answer ?

[LaoPo]

Oh what a sage ye are, any tea leaf reading skills ? Anyway I thought we had to wait a few years for the answer ?

You're a bad reader Thunder30101...

I wrote:

"Never mind. We'll see what will be the outcome of Google in China and Baidu in- and outside China, ok?

Let's wait and see in 5-10 years."

I was talking the place Google and Baidu would have in China (and outside for Baidu) in 5-10 years.

Not the present situation of which I said that the Google soup wasn't that hot (Google's threat to leave China).

Oh and BTW...I wasn't drinking tea.....that's coffee

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Google postpones Android phone launch in China

By Melanie Lee and Chris Buckley

SHANGHAI/BEIJING (Reuters) - Google has postponed the launch of two mobile phones in China which use its Android platform, in the first sign its business in the country is starting to be affected by a dispute over hacking and censorship.

The manufacturers of the telephone, which was scheduled for launch in China on Wednesday, are Motorola and Samsung Electronics Co Ltd, and China Unicom would have been the carrier, a Google spokeswoman said.

A source familiar with the situation said Google Inc wanted customers to have a "positive experience" with the product, but felt that would be difficult considering the publicity surrounding the company in China at present.

Google said last week that it and other companies were targets of sophisticated cyber-spying from China that also went after Chinese dissidents, and threatened to pull out of the country.

It also said it no longer wants to censor its Chinese Google.cn search site and wants talks with Beijing about offering a legal, unfiltered Chinese site.

Android is an open source mobile operating system, already adopted by China Mobile's OPhone and Dell's Mini 3, which were launched in China late last year.

Analysts say that without search, Google's most important business in China, the firm would struggle to retain a foothold is the world's biggest Internet market by users.

The dispute could stoke tensions between China and the United States, already at odds over the value of the yuan currency, trade issues, U.S. arms sales to Taiwan and climate change policy.

Chinese officials have so far publicly fended off Google's complaints and not openly flagged any talks with the world's biggest Internet search company, which opened its Chinese-language search site in 2006.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu pressed the company a little more on Tuesday in comments that suggested scant room for giving way to Google's demands.

"Foreign firms in China should respect China's laws and regulations, and respect China's public customs and traditions, and assume the corresponding social responsibilities, and of course Google is no exception," Ma told a regular briefing.

Ma did not mention censorship as being among those responsibilities, but other Chinese officials have.

Until now, the Foreign Ministry had avoided mentioning Google's name in comments on the dispute that has also drawn Washington into demanding an explanation from Beijing.

But Ma, like other Chinese officials, did not directly hit back at the U.S.

When asked again about Google's complaint it had been hacked from within China, Ma said Chinese companies have also been hacked.

"China is the biggest victim of hacking," Ma said, adding that eight out of 10 personal computers in China connected to the Internet had been hacked. This figure apparently included the many computers infected with viruses spread online.

Other countries are also being drawn into the dispute.

India's national security adviser M.K. Narayanan told the London-based Times newspaper on Tuesday that his and other Indian government offices had been the target of hacker attacks originating from China on December 15, coinciding with attacks on Google and the other firms.

"There is no basis at all for this claim," Ma said.

Indian commerce and industry minister Anand Sharma declined to comment on the report.

He said he had not brought up the issue with China's commerce minister when they met in Beijing on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60I0...usbeforethebell

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

U.S. has met with China on Internet freedom: official

WASHINGTON - Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:59pm EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has had multiple meetings with Chinese authorities over Internet freedom and will have more in the coming days, a top State Department official said on Tuesday amid continuing tensions between Google and Beijing.

Assistant U.S. Secretary of State Kurt Campbell told reporters that Washington viewed free and open Internet use as a "universal right that should be available to all people."

"The ability to operate with confidence in cyberspace is critical in a modern society and economy," he said.

"The U.S. government has had multiple meetings with Chinese authorities on this matter and will have more in the coming days," Campbell added.

Google said last week that it and other companies were targets of sophisticated cyber-spying from China, and threatened to pull out of the country.

"We take this matter very seriously," Campbell said. "The whole issue does raise serious concerns."

He said China had denied the allegations made by Google. Campbell said Washington believed Chinese authorities were in the best position to explain the situation, "and we are asking them for an explanation."

(Reporting by Andrew Quinn and Arshad Mohammed; Editing by Eric Beech)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60I4...opnewsafternoon

LaoPo

[bendejo]

There is talk about a congressional bill in the US that would involve restrictions on the internet, with Big Corporations putting big money behind it (translation: they're buying senators). All the usual PAC-men doing the usual self-righteous posturing, claiming it will protect the nation, raise revenue and create jobs (zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....). John McCain's voice has been pretty loud on it. (don't these guys ever have enough money?)

I wonder if what Google is doing has something to do with this: "see, you're censoring free speech, just like China."

Genuine or not. it's about time someone took a stand. I was hoping that after Tiananmen Square the Western powers would band together and tell them the handover of Hong Kong was canceled on humanitarian grounds. Yeah, right.

I also think that if Google in being comprised from within they realize this sort of stuff will be ongoing, and there is nothing they can do about it (sort of like the way you can't call the cops in LOS).

[OriginalPoster]

There is talk about a congressional bill in the US that would involve restrictions on the internet, with Big Corporations putting big money behind it (translation: they're buying senators). All the usual PAC-men doing the usual self-righteous posturing, claiming it will protect the nation, raise revenue and create jobs (zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....). John McCain's voice has been pretty loud on it. (don't these guys ever have enough money?)

I wonder if what Google is doing has something to do with this: "see, you're censoring free speech, just like China."

Genuine or not. it's about time someone took a stand. I was hoping that after Tiananmen Square the Western powers would band together and tell them the handover of Hong Kong was canceled on humanitarian grounds. Yeah, right.

I also think that if Google in being comprised from within they realize this sort of stuff will be ongoing, and there is nothing they can do about it (sort of like the way you can't call the cops in LOS).

What bill in congress is it that you are referring to? McCain has one that is intended to prevent the government from passing "net neutrality" laws, is that the one that you mean? This is the bill of his that I was able to find references to on the internet, but maybe there's another one: http://mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?...38-805ed7bafc6b McCain is portraying the purpose of the bill as being to prevent government control of the internet, though I assume that there are arguments out there that say that the bill would do the opposite.

Edited January 20, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[bendejo]

Yes, the Net Neutrality bill.

HuffPost article

Big Money is behind its defeat, and they've co-opted the right wing meatballs. It usually works out that whatever these clowns are in favor of is bad for the rest of us. I heard McCain commenting on why it should be defeated with his usual rubber-stamp justifications.

It seems like there is a fog initiative around it, so it's (deliberately) difficult to get the real details, and if you try to follow it closely you risk the chance of dying of boredom. We'll see what becomes of it. Who knows, it may die. I think more likely they'll shelve it until next year, with the GOP figuring they'll have a better grip on Congress then.

[OriginalPoster]

Yes, the Net Neutrality bill.

HuffPost article

Big Money is behind its defeat, and they've co-opted the right wing meatballs. It usually works out that whatever these clowns are in favor of is bad for the rest of us. I heard McCain commenting on why it should be defeated with his usual rubber-stamp justifications.

It seems like there is a fog initiative around it, so it's (deliberately) difficult to get the real details, and if you try to follow it closely you risk the chance of dying of boredom. We'll see what becomes of it. Who knows, it may die. I think more likely they'll shelve it until next year, with the GOP figuring they'll have a better grip on Congress then

"Net neutrality" is not about putting restrictions on internet content or censoring it though, it's more about bandwidth shaping and allocation (or the prohibition thereof).

As an aisde, it's an issue that makes for strange political bedfellows. To see a writer at the Huffington Post arguing passionately in favor of the FCC's right to regulate is a bit surreal, as it is to see right wingers suddenly deciding that the FCC is the enemy.

Edited January 21, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[bendejo]

"Net neutrality" is not about putting restrictions on internet content or censoring it though, it's more about bandwidth shaping and allocation (or the prohibition thereof).

...

I think only a few senators would even know what you're talking about. Seeing internet and restrict in the same sentence is enough of an executive summary for them.

[LaoPo]

Google faces pressure as China to decide on license

(Reuters) - Google Inc could face further pressure for its other products in China as Beijing is due to decide whether or not to renew a license for the firm's flagship search engine in the world's largest Internet market.

In an effort to keep its China license, Google said on Wednesday it will stop automatically redirecting China users to its uncensored Hong Kong site within the next 48 hours.

Beijing has been silent on whether a compromise system will be enough to allow Google to stay in the lucrative market -- the world's largest with nearly 400 million users, where local powerhouse Baidu Inc is the top dog.

Google said that availability of its Web search service in mainland China on Wednesday was "partially blocked."

"If they lose this license, the trend is moving in the wrong direction for Google, it seems likely they will have trouble with their other licenses in China as well," said T.R. Harrington, chief executive of search consulting firm Darwin Marketing.

Continues here:

http://www.reuters.c...me=ustechnology

LaoPo