Christianity Or The Bar ?

[Xangsamhua]

Fact??? The Bible is not Fact, it is no more than a leap of faith. Made up of anecdotal stories handed down, changed, interpreted, miss intrepeted, miss translated and so on and so on. One in which you either believe or disbelieve.

If I remember, it was 400 years after the death of Jesus, that anyone even started to put pen to parchment and started to write the first part. I could be wrong though.

Was intrigued to see the comment about 400 years after the death of Jesus.

Noted the article below in Yahoo! today. This of course refers to the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament") and has nothing to say about the validity of religious truth-claims. Incidentally, the first New Testament writing we have evidence of is Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians (AD/CE 52). Final agreement was reached on the Canon of New Testament writings at the Third Council of Carthage (AD/CE 397). That might be the "400 years" you have in mind.

Nothing to do with soul-seeking Christians and fallen women, but a bit of background anyway.

Bible Possibly Written Centuries Earlier, Text Suggests

Clara Moskowitz

LiveScience Staff Writer

LiveScience.com – Fri Jan 15, 9:40 am ET

Scientists have discovered the earliest known Hebrew writing - an inscription dating from the 10th century B.C., during the period of King David's reign.

The breakthrough could mean that portions of the Bible were written centuries earlier than previously thought. (The Bible's Old Testament is thought to have been first written down in an ancient form of Hebrew.)

Until now, many scholars have held that the Hebrew Bible originated in the 6th century B.C., because Hebrew writing was thought to stretch back no further. But the newly deciphered Hebrew text is about four centuries older, scientists announced this month.

"It indicates that the Kingdom of Israel already existed in the 10th century BCE and that at least some of the biblical texts were written hundreds of years before the dates presented in current research," said Gershon Galil, a professor of Biblical Studies at the University of Haifa in Israel, who deciphered the ancient text.

BCE stands for "before common era," and is equivalent to B.C., or before Christ.

The writing was discovered more than a year ago on a pottery shard dug up during excavations at Khirbet Qeiyafa, near Israel's Elah valley. The excavations were carried out by archaeologist Yosef Garfinkel of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. At first, scientists could not tell if the writing was Hebrew or some other local language.

Finally, Galil was able to decipher the text. He identified words particular to the Hebrew language and content specific to Hebrew culture to prove that the writing was, in fact, Hebrew.

"It uses verbs that were characteristic of Hebrew, such as asah ('did') and avad ('worked'), which were rarely used in other regional languages," Galil said. "Particular words that appear in the text, such as almanah ('widow') are specific to Hebrew and are written differently in other local languages."

The ancient text is written in ink on a trapezoid-shaped piece of pottery about 6 inches by 6.5 inches (15 cm by 16.5 cm). It appears to be a social statement about how people should treat slaves, widows and orphans. In English, it reads (by numbered line):

1' you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].

2' Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]

3' [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]

4' the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.

5' Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger.

The content, which has some missing letters, is similar to some Biblical scriptures, such as Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, and Exodus 23:3, but does not appear to be copied from any Biblical text.

[yorkieboy]

Bonobo;

intelligent design itself must have itself evolved. The one I researched did not espouse evolution in any way. It stated that the theory of evolution is wrong and that we, and everything else, were created as we are now. It says that the reason we share certain characteristics is that the great wizard only had a limited number of parts from which to create everything.

On a lighter note; my father says that I am living proof that not only does god exist, but he also has a warped sense of humour. He says that as a boy often asked god for a big dick, with yours truly being his reply (I'm 6ft 2in)

[Xangsamhua]

Geriatric Kid is right, as usual, The separation of church and state, which was invented in Rhode Island in the 1600's, is NOT in Thailand. Buddhism is a State-established Thai religion that has 'divine status' here.

I'm not sure about this, PB and GK. I understand there is no "established" religion in Thailand and that the King is obliged to protect all "registered" religions, such as Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, etc. and their acknowledged sects (Roman Catholic, Baptist, SDA, etc.).

This is what Wikipedia says about the push for establishment in the 2007 constitution consultations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Thailand):

Religion

Drafters came under pressure from religious groups to name Buddhism as the national religion. Over 300,000 signed a petition in an attempt to sway the Commission, and the leader of a Buddhist group threatened that Buddhists would reject the draft constitution in a public referendum if their demands were not met.

The final draft did not in fact meet their demands.

Of course, Buddhism may be de facto the religion of Thailand and the third part of the Monarchy-Nation-Religion triad established in the Sarit era. It certainly has primacy, even if not constitutional establishment, though Buddhist hegemonists might find life uncomfortable in the South.

[GuestHouse]

Why do Christians have to equate nearly every form of sex with abuse and "sin"? Why can't they focus their disapproval and moral crusades on something else, like... oh, I don't know... how 'bout VIOLENCE? Or drug/alcohol abuse? Or poor hygiene and disease? Why is it always about sex with these people? Why can't they just accept that sex is one of the greatest joys in life and not in-and-of-itself harmful and evil?

Firstly the assertion that Christians equate nearly every from of sex with abuse and "Sin", is unfounded. There is a huge debate within the Christian Faith over the 'sex' issue (You'd have to have missed the news for at least ten years not to have heard of the rift within the Anglican Church on the issue of homosexuality - by no means a single attitude of condemning 'nearly all forms of sex as abuse and 'sin'".

Christians, VIOLENCE? Or Drug/alcohol abuse?

I guess you have never heard of the Quakers or the Salvationists and the long tradition these people have of working with victims (and perpetrators) of violence, people falling into Drug and Alcohol abuse?

Let's keep in mind that it was an argument made by people of faith that brought an end to Slavery and the Slave Trade in Britain and the British Empire at a time when the Britain and the British Empire where profiting hugely from the trade. An argument made by people of faith that ended the slave trade turning against the whole of human history.

[yorkieboy]

GuestHouse

Your argument is pathetic. Just about everyone of that era were "of faith" mainly because they were regarded as social outcasts if they didn't. Not long before that they were burnt at the stake if they didn't believe in the great wizard in the sky.

Using your logic it was people of faith (catholic) who murdered 6 million Jews

[Gaccha]

I am keen on setting up a rescue centre for missionaries to escape from rescue centres. The misery they have projected onto others by exploiting the circumstances of other people in order to have brief highs with a false sense of fulfillment in life could be revealed to them with a hearty programme of de-programming.

These missionaries (hereafter referred to as 'moral propagandists') have successfully disseminated a narrative of the World that leads to misery in bar girls who feel their lives are failures and may even resort to suicide to escape this chronic sense of ennui brought about by moral propaganists.

A rescue centre, staffed by bar girls, could bring a sense of humanity back to the moral propaganists. They would be invited to speak to people in the real world who have a firm grasp of the ontology of life, and who would be prepared to explain the relative nature of 'truth'.

Classes in brainwashing, abnormalising narratives, structural power dynamics, along with sowing classes might convert these moral propagansits to a simpler life of offering their possibly desirable bodies to men.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Gaccha

[F1fanatic]

Let's put it this way,the people who run the UK are nearly always 'Christians'. They tell us all how much they love god whilst having no scruples about killing people in other countries.......

<deleted>, Tony Blair is a 'Christian' - what more can one say??

Meanwhile we've got 'merit making' in Thailand as a way of absolving one's sins.... Not to mention that Buddah always said that he was not a god - just a way of life.....

[GuestHouse]

GuestHouse

Your argument is pathetic. Just about everyone of that era were "of faith" mainly because they were regarded as social outcasts if they didn't. Not long before that they were burnt at the stake if they didn't believe in the great wizard in the sky.

Using your logic it was people of faith (catholic) who murdered 6 million Jews

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to go away and read about the history the Quakers, the Salvationists and the "arguments of faith' made against slavery before you rush to display your ignorance to the world.

Yes, professing faith was a social norm, but it was the 'arguments of faith' revisiting Christian teachings and applying them to resolve social ills that marks the Quakers, the Salvationists and the religious opponents of slavery as going against social norms - that had been in place throughout recorded history.

Likewise, returning to Thailand, rabid ranting against Christian Missionaries in Thailand ignores the truth that Christian Missions in Thailand and the work they do are a huge force for good for the most disadvantaged in this society.

[F1fanatic]

GuestHouse

Your argument is pathetic. Just about everyone of that era were "of faith" mainly because they were regarded as social outcasts if they didn't. Not long before that they were burnt at the stake if they didn't believe in the great wizard in the sky.

Using your logic it was people of faith (catholic) who murdered 6 million Jews

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to go away and read about the history the Quakers, the Salvationists and the "arguments of faith' made against slavery before you rush to display your ignorance to the world.

Yes, professing faith was a social norm, but it was the 'arguments of faith' revisiting Christian teachings and applying them to resolve social ills that marks the Quakers, the Salvationists and the religious opponents of slavery as going against social norms - that had been in place throughout recorded history.

Likewise, returning to Thailand, rabid ranting against Christian Missionaries in Thailand ignores the truth that Christian Missions in Thailand and the work they do are a huge force for good for the most disadvantaged in this society.

Christian Missions are mainly focused on promoting Christianity - helping people comes second.

[GuestHouse]

Of course I do accept that much of what Christianity has to say about how we ought to behave towards others is a bit of a challenge to the behaviour of many expats and tourists in Thailand, perhaps this explains the rabid comments we have here on TV every time Christianity in Thailand comes up.

[cdnvic]

Stay on topic please. Christian missionaries in Thailand, not the existence of gods, or who burned who at the stake 300 years ago.

[GuestHouse]

Christian Missions are mainly focused on promoting Christianity - helping people comes second.

Obviously lacking in any knowledge of the Vocations of the various Christian Missions.

But hey, religion again and once again the old adage proved right.

Religious discussion too often like a public swimming pool - all the noise is at the shallow end.

[F1fanatic]

Of course I do accept that much of what Christianity has to say about how we ought to behave towards others is a bit of a challenge to the behaviour of many expats and tourists in Thailand, perhaps this explains the rabid comments we have here on TV every time Christianity in Thailand comes up.

I actually agree with you there, but its no excuse for religion. Christians are as bad as anyone else (in fact worst in my experience), they are unbelievably hypocritical.

[GuestHouse]

Keeping on Topic as cdnvic asks. It is quite clear that Christian Mission in Thailand have been and continue to be a huge force for good working for the most disadvantaged people in this society.

[GuestHouse]

And i suppose Thailand is the only country in the world where the Catholics are not physically and sexually abusing children. Tell me does the priesthood attract sexual deviants, or does convert men into them?

Thailand is probably one of the few countries where people in authority, political, social and religious have yet to come under the full scrutiny of the public and press - Thai Buddhist monks fathering children with female followers gets reported occasionally, we've recently had a case of a Thai Buddhist Monk committing a sex act with an animal.

If you believe that child abuse does not take place here in Thailand's schools and temples then you surely have your head in the dirt.

You've heard about it in the west because it has been investigated, reported and prosecuted.

When these things are investigated, prosecuted and reported in Thailand you'll hear about them here in Thailand too.

----

Remind me, was it you accusing me of making pathetic arguments?

[cdnvic]

Last chance to stay on topic or this is getting closed.

[F1fanatic]

Keeping on Topic as cdnvic asks. It is quite clear that Christian Mission in Thailand have been and continue to be a huge force for good working for the most disadvantaged people in this society.

Actually its not clear at all.

Any 'Christian' mission is going to be concerned with converting people to Christianity. Doing 'good' will always be secondary, or at least the primary cause for 'doing good'.

Edited January 17, 2010 by F1fanatic

[GuestHouse]

We've already had the examples of work with the stateless people, orphanages for street kids, hospices for people suffering with HIV, work with drug addicts, safe homes for women and children suffering violence and of course the work by Father Joe in the slums of Klong Toey.

Advocating for the rights of stateless ethnic minorities, helping hill tribe peoples break the dependency on drugs and the drugs trade and of course providing health care and help programs for people working in the sex industry.

Hard practical work by people who have through their faith committed themselves to helping others.

The people who benefit from these programs are at the bottom of Thai society (if admitted into Thai society at all), there is no compulsion to convert to Christianity, these people need only ask for or need help to receive it.

If you have evidence of Christian Missions working in these areas of real need demanding conversion to Christianity as a condition of receiving help - Let's have it.

Otherwise we must assume your allegation to be unfounded nonsense.

[GuestHouse]

We've already had the examples of work with the stateless people, orphanages for street kids, hospices for people suffering with HIV, work with drug addicts, safe homes for women and children suffering violence and of course the work by Father Joe in the slums of Klong Toey.

Advocating for the rights of stateless ethnic minorities, helping hill tribe peoples break the dependency on drugs and the drugs trade and of course providing health care and help programs for people working in the sex industry.

Is anyone here disputing that Christian Missions are not deeply involved (often pioneering) these things in Thailand and that providing this broad range of help to the most disadvantaged people in Thai society is not a good thing?

[F1fanatic]

We've already had the examples of work with the stateless people, orphanages for street kids, hospices for people suffering with HIV, work with drug addicts, safe homes for women and children suffering violence and of course the work by Father Joe in the slums of Klong Toey.

Advocating for the rights of stateless ethnic minorities, helping hill tribe peoples break the dependency on drugs and the drugs trade and of course providing health care and help programs for people working in the sex industry.

Hard practical work by people who have through their faith committed themselves to helping others.

The people who benefit from these programs are at the bottom of Thai society (if admitted into Thai society at all), there is no compulsion to convert to Christianity, these people need only ask for or need help to receive it.

If you have evidence of Christian Missions working in these areas of real need demanding conversion to Christianity as a condition of receiving help - Let's have it.

Otherwise we must assume your allegation to be unfounded nonsense.

I'd be the first to admit, I don't. But - are you honestly telling me they aren't looking to convert people to Christianity?

Look at the missionaries in Africa etc. Why are they there if not to convert? We've got all sorts of charitable organisations trying to help, are you honestly telling me the 'christian' missionaries aren't here trying to convert?

Non- christian organisations just want to help - Christian organisations ....... sorry, there's a sub-text involved.

Edited January 17, 2010 by F1fanatic

[F1fanatic]

Sorry Guesthouse, I LOATHE religion in any form.

They're always hypocritcal, self-serving etc. etc.

The fact that our 'leaders' in the West are always 'Christians' makes me despise them even more. They start wars, kill people - but they're 'christian', go to church - so they must be 'good' people.......

[AsiaCheese]

Christian Missions are mainly focused on promoting Christianity - helping people comes second.

Religious discussion too often like a public swimming pool - all the noise is at the shallow end.

Yep, and too many ID-iots pissin' into it at the shallow end too...

[GuestHouse]

So you'd rather street kids were left on the street, people suffering HIV/AIDS where left without a home and care, women and children suffering violence where left to suffer continuing violence, drug addicts and alcoholics were left on drugs, stateless people where left without a voice and the children of Klong Toey's slums are left without anyone offering them a hope in life because 'you believe' Christians are only out to convert people.

are you honestly telling me the 'christian' missionaries aren't here trying to convert?

No - It is you who are insisting that Christians are only in Thailand to Convert Thais to Christianity.

Again, show us the evidence that Christians in Thailand are insisting that the help they offer the most desperate and disadvantaged people in this society is based on those people converting to Christianity.

Edited January 17, 2010 by GuestHouse

[F1fanatic]

So you'd rather street kids were left on the street, people suffering HIV/AIDS where left without a home and care, women and children suffering violence where left to suffer continuing violence, drug addicts and alcoholics were left on drugs, stateless people where left without a voice and the children of Klong Toey's slums are left without anyone offering them a hope in life because 'you believe' Christians are only out to convert people.

are you honestly telling me the 'christian' missionaries aren't here trying to convert?

No - It is you who are insisting that Christians are on in Thailand to Convert Thais to Christianity.

Again, show us the evidence that Christians in Thailand are insisting that the help they offer the most desperate and disadvantaged people in this society is based on those people converting to Christianity.

Sorry Guesthouse, I LOATHE religion in any form.

They're always hypocritcal, self-serving etc. etc.

The fact that our 'leaders' in the West are always 'Christians' makes me despise them even more. They start wars, kill people - but they're 'christian', go to church - so they must be 'good' people......

[GuestHouse]

Well at least we have got to you admitting your objections are based on your own personal issues and not on the actions of Christians in Thailand.

If you are struggling with the very real truth of the huge amount of good that people of faith do here in Thailand and how that contradicts your own view regarding

They start wars, kill people - but they're 'christian', go to church - so they must be 'good' people......

Then I suggest you take some time to consider what that says about you.

[GuestHouse]

We've already had the examples of work with the stateless people, orphanages for street kids, hospices for people suffering with HIV, work with drug addicts, safe homes for women and children suffering violence and of course the work by Father Joe in the slums of Klong Toey.

Advocating for the rights of stateless ethnic minorities, helping hill tribe peoples break the dependency on drugs and the drugs trade and of course providing health care and help programs for people working in the sex industry.

Is anyone here disputing that Christian Missions are not deeply involved (often pioneering) these things in Thailand and that providing this broad range of help to the most disadvantaged people in Thai society is not a good thing?

Any takers?

[StreetCowboy]

8>< -----SNIP Nested Quotes Deleted SNIP---><8

I'd be the first to admit, I don't. But - are you honestly telling me they aren't looking to convert people to Christianity?

Look at the missionaries in Africa etc. Why are they there if not to convert? We've got all sorts of charitable organisations trying to help, are you honestly telling me the 'christian' missionaries aren't here trying to convert?

Non- christian organisations just want to help - Christian organisations ....... sorry, there's a sub-text involved.

I think you're being a bit old-school there. In times gone by, I think a lot of missionaries went to Africa and Asia with the aim of converting people for the benefit of the convertees. Education and health services were an enabler to that end. However, from my experience of churches and church-going people (which, I admit, is limited since if its not 20 years since I last attended a service then I've forgotten how long it is...) anyway, the approach appears to be to focus on the charitable aspects of work, and let recruitment take its own course - a volunteer is worth ten pressed men, and so forth...

TImes have moved on since David Livingstone, and the churches have to be (and are) much more politically correct ito survive in secular society

SC

[OriginalPoster]

The existence of God is proven mathematically as there is no possibility that the universe could exist coincidentally without intelligent design. There are many experiments carried out in the field of quantum physics which demonstrate that consciousness and reality are interconnected, and that God is at least probable. In my experience, the people I have met who are most upset by the concept of religion or God are people who have the most to lose in the end if they are wrong. It is no use arguing about it anyway, as everyone will find out one way or another in the end.

As far as missionaries and Christianity, the Christians do perhaps more good works in this country than the Buddhists do. Nothing against Buddhism as I think it is a beautiful religion and is much like Christianity in many ways anyhow. But as a whole I believe the Christian church has done more charity-wise that Buddhists, but to be fair they also have more money.

Mathematics is not biochemisty, physiology, nor biology. "Intelligent design" is a misleading invented name for the literal acceptance of the Bible's story of creation. I am not going to get into a sidetracked debate on the subject, but the ridiculous proposals used to explain how Dinosaurs came after man and that carbon dating is unbelievable speaks for itself. One might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The sad part of the Creationist, ooops sorry "Intelligent Design" position is that it is based upon making wild claims as to what the principles of evolution and selective adaptation actually say. The worst part of the false attributions made is when they say evolution says man is descended from apes. What evolution says is that we share a common origin. This is far more compatible with the Bible than the pseudo science that comes from people that are not qualified to discuss the subject and that have to make up facts.

I say again, Thailand has its own religion that is forced upon the people. Open your eyes a bit more clearly.

Are they forcing it on you?

Yes they are. It is forced upon me when I enter a public building and there are religious symbols. In countries with a secure sense of nation, a public building should be neutral. What kind of message is given to the muslim population which has been in Thailand for as long as the Buddhists? It is forced upon me when I enter a taxi or other public transit and there are the religious icons and markings in the vehicle. Vehicles in public service trade should not have a religious flavour.

It is forced upon me when I have to hear the prayers broadcast over the loudspeakers. It is forced upon me by my friends when they go to Temple with their offerings and insist that I accompany them. I will go, but decline to enter or purchase offerings. They believe that I am being cheap, particularly when I do not put money into the envelope of the guy collecting for the Temple. I will not engage in idol worship nor support such activity. It is forced upon me when a monk comes with his alms bowl. It is considered offensive not to give food or alms. I however, find it offensive that the act of charity is a public spectacle. Charity should be done quietly and anonymously. It is forced upon me with the never ending collections when someone decides he's going to make merit and be a monk for a month. It is forced upon me when the staff at the airport counter will fall all over themselves to make sure the monk gets priority service. Who cares if the monk is selling fake amulets or is a scoundrel hiding out. He's in a monk's robes, so you have to make nice. The obstacles and barriers in place for non Buddhist denominations that wish to erect a church, temple, mosque etc. does suggest that such faiths are not "encouraged".

I accept the religious aspect of life here because that's the way it is. However, there is a conceited arrogance that says there is no need to learn about any other religion or to appreciate that some people are not Buddhists.

All those things might be a perfectly legitimate reasons for a devoutly religious Western person to not move to Thailand. For me, as an atheist, they sound pretty trivial.

However the original post in this thread was about Christians buying girls out of bars in order to preach the bible at them. Apparently the consensus on ThaiVisa is that its wrong for them to do that but that it's perfectly OK for 150 kg pensioners and disability recipients to buy those girls out and bang them at a 1000 baht per thow. That's illustrative.

Edited January 17, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

Well at least we have got to you admitting your objections are based on your own personal issues and not on the actions of Christians in Thailand.

If you are struggling with the very real truth of the huge amount of good that people of faith do here in Thailand and how that contradicts your own view regarding

They start wars, kill people - but they're 'christian', go to church - so they must be 'good' people......

Then I suggest you take some time to consider what that says about you.

Umm, OK - what does it say about me other than I hate religion 'cos it generally brings out the worst and most hypocritical in people??

[cognos]

"..Christian Missions are mainly focused on promoting Christianity - helping people comes second..."

let me attempt to correct you..helping people comes FIRST!!!! ..they are mainly focused on helping people to make the choice to discover Christianity ( or not ).. they are simply pointing out that the door is always open for anyone to enter.. As much as I respect Buddhism, BUDDHA prophesized ( typo ) the coming of Jesus in approximately 500 B.C. Buddha was ALSO HELPING the people first and foremost. Oy...