Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[zakk9]

Civil War comes to Thailand..?? Brilliant. Another simply EXCELLENT way to highlight the country around the world!

Bye-bye tourists for another season..!!!

R.I.P Thailand

No, no... they'll just make Thailand the Civil War hub of Asia, with annual Civil War Festivals, including war games, beauty contests, heavy drinking, beauty contests, prayers, drunk teenagers raving around on Sukhumvit... hey wait.... they have that already, don't they? Maybe he's only preparing for Songkran.

On a more serious note: Nutcases like him should always be taken seriously. There are enough bored, young men in this country to start a civil war any time. If they are allowed to rape and pillage at will, you could easily gather a few hundred thousand.

[chutai]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

[jayboy]

Please learn history.

All western democracys came came from coups or similar uprisings. Else we would be all in absolute monarchies.

Hmm, a follower of Acharn Giles.Who would have thought it?

[pedro01]

"I appointed myself a leader of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship"

How very democratic.

[Japhrodisiac]

Why is it that terrorists can threaten people and indeed incite violence against the government, disrupt the public peace and infrastructure (both Red and Yellow) and nothing is done about it? Normal everyday Thais are having a hard go of things, with a higher cost of living and many living on less money these days, and yet terrorists can run free and do whatever they want? Very sad

[MegaRanter]

Please learn history.

All western democracys came came from coups or similar uprisings. Else we would be all in absolute monarchies.

Hmm, a follower of Acharn Giles.Who would have thought it?

Civil wars do not need major declarations to take off, just some bruised egos with access to some arms, while the rest of the people are made to see reason why it was neccesary.

No way this is going to be of any good to the people of the southern thailand.

[Xangsamhua]

Wow did you see his website? What a nutcase!

Wow, my thai not so good but seems like this qoute is strange. From his website under one picture which shows new party office in Sanam Luang.

ที่ทำการพรรค ขัตติยะธรรม แห่งแรก ไม่ใช่พรรค ”กระยาจก” แต่เป็นจุดขายที่ ดีที่สุด กับพรรคที่ไม่มีทุนรอน ต้องอาศัยรากหญ้า แต่พรรคนาซีของ เยอรมัน ก็เริ่มต้นทำให้ประเทศใหญ่ยิ่งใหญ่ก็แบบนี้

I believe he says his new party doesn't have much capital; it depends on the working people, but this is how the Nazi Party in Germany began and made Germany big and powerful.

[animatic]

Is he a nutjob? Is he serious? Or both?

I would say both fits close enough.

Yes, this is the death knell for most of The Red Shirt claims to being Democracy advocates,

IF they acknowledge this as part of their group. All pretense would be shot then.

Will Veera and Jatuporno and the other red Leaders sign on for this?

Sae Dung is clearly in the Jakrapob corner and having just gone to meet Thaksin in Cambodia

against regulations, this squarely puts Thaksin in the war against the Army camp.

We expected the gloves to come off, and this is on schedule for the festivities to come.

This also calls into consideration Thaksins choices of who he will ally with in his quest...

A high percentage are not looking at Thailands best interests as part of their world view,

but only their advancement in a Thaksin controlled world, since they have burnt their bridges to the real world.

[Garry9999]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

Agreed, excellent post.

[lopburi3]

A reminder that English is the only language allowed in posts outside of the language forum and please respect the rules on Royal Family. Posts have been removed.

[robertson468]

This is another of many strategies to bring pressure to bear on the Government to destabalise it, which can be the only reason for announcing the intent. Otherwise it would have been kept a close guarded secret until the attack is launched, thereby maintaining the element of surprise. If the former is the casde perhaps "The General (on behalf of Tacki)" is not quite the psycho we think, although he is exposing himself to some fairly serious criminal charges.

[rayw]

Just shows how pathetic this idiot guy is, a stupid low grade bully boy by the sound of it, and those of the Red Shirts are not much better who are supporting him. All due to that corrupt bastard Thaksin who flies around the world in his private jet looking and acting like a prat, and his primary (only) interest is to preserve his mainly ill gotten billions, while 90% of the Thai people stay poor. He should instead, to deserve any support at all, be putting his heart into working for the genuine good of the ordinary Thai people and the well being of this country but he is blatantly doing the complete opposite for sure. I cannot see why everyone does not see what he is doing, it is to me and most of us here so so obvious and a no brainer, anyone with an IQ over 80 should be able to see that. So now lets hopefully have some faith that the Thai people will see through just what Thaksin is all about, i.e. selfish corrupt greed and work to support his arrest and return to Thailand to serve his jail sentence he was justly and properly sentenced to.

Okay I am just a guest retired and living here, but I do care about this country where i have chosen to live and I do care about the ordinary majority of Jai Dee Thai people, and indeed why should I not do so. I hope the Thai people in general can now knuckle down and forget Red and Yellow shirts and get behind a fair and sound PM Abhist for now until proper and fair elections can be called. I do honestly believe Abhist is not a corrupt man, he is obviously intelligent and well educated and he does have this country's well being at heart, which is the complete opposite of Thaksin of that I have absolutely no doubt. I actually do not care what political style of government get elected in (i.e. Socialist, Capitalist or Centre) though it should be a moderate and fair close to centre based government to get Thailand fully up on its feet. What IS important is that we get a Government of the people, that cares for the people, that is against all corruption and is honestly democratically elected. Idealistic maybe but that is at least what Thailand should be striving for and not supporting corrupt money crazed despot exiles who we really do not need here any more. Is this achievable well we as guests have to sit and watch and see what transpires.

[Jingthing]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

Agreed, excellent post.

To support the red shirts is to support Thaksin. Westerners would be more open to some of the messages of the red shirts the moment they totally divorce themselves from Thaksin. So the reds are not xenophobic and the yellows are? I say both are. The reds attacked the international Asean conference shutting it down and shut down the gay political event in Chiang Mai (because it did not reflect traditional Lanna values) and Thaksin himself originally ruled under the Thai Love Thai party which is a quite xenophobic moniker, wouldn't you agree. I found your post pure propaganda. Truth Today is anything but. The other falsehood you perpetuate is that opposing the red Thaksinistas equals support for the yellows. Wrong. Totally wrong.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[wolf5370]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

While I agree with practically everything you say here, I don't think this particular guy or his threats are much help to 'the cause'. How many of those soldier boys come from Yellow Shirt families (where their naes even in the lottery bin?). The red shirts (hate that name too) really need to rally behind a decent leader, not a wanted ex-PM who no one seriously belives is in it for Thailand, and not some self appointed warlord either. There must be someone in their camp thay can be brought to the fore wiothout the baggage of corruption that can make it a real force to be reckonedwith (and I mean political not militarial).

[rayw]

Wow did you see his website? What a nutcase!

Wow, my thai not so good but seems like this qoute is strange. From his website under one picture which shows new party office in Sanam Luang.

ที่ทำการพรรค ขัตติยะธรรม แห่งแรก ไม่ใช่พรรค ”กระยาจก” แต่เป็นจุดขายที่ ดีที่สุด กับพรรคที่ไม่มีทุนรอน ต้องอาศัยรากหญ้า แต่พรรคนาซีของ เยอรมัน ก็เริ่มต้นทำให้ประเทศใหญ่ยิ่งใหญ่ก็แบบนี้

I believe he says his new party doesn't have much capital; it depends on the working people, but this is how the Nazi Party in Germany began and made Germany big and powerful.

......and evil and corrupt, causing the death and suffering of millions. So yes indeed we as caring honest folk all agree we do not want that here. What Thailand now needs desperately is a non Elitist ruling class Government and a Government not run by bully boy corrupt despots but a Government honestly democratically elected by the people with externally independently monitored elections with no vote buying, poll rigging etc so the result is acceptable and sustainable by all honest Thai folk. No need then for fighting and wars as those are the actions of spoiled children who cannot get their own way. You DO though need educated people to run a country as it does require a lot of intellectual skill to do so, but not those elitist types that want to continue to suppress the poor for their own ends. Get rid of the misguided support for Thaksin and his corrupt cronies, and get rid of bully boy self elected violently angry leaders and the Red Shirts would get much more support.

Edited January 23, 2010 by rayw
remove Thai language - lopburi3

[JulesMad]

Oeps, I think we might have a problem here....

Coz I also appointed myself the leader of the red-shirts, and I just ordered them to burn their red shirts (or wash them really warm so they turn pink), and I issued the order to "Make Love, Not War".

Whoever is not obeying my order will be shot

So now there is no need for red shirt army anymore, and I don't have to be leader anymore, and I go home and Make Love, Not War

Problem solved....

If only, it would be so easy

[asiawatcher]

So this time when a red shirt puts a canister of petrol on a gas cylinder - we have reason to pull the trigger? If that is not an act of terrorism then Tacky is innocent! What idiots...

At least as war has been declared the grey area of legality of firing weapons is removed. I wonder what the poor Isaarn farmer will think when they cop a bullet? Was that worth 100 Baht? But like the dopey British in the Khyber Pass - at least the red shirts will make it less bloody to look at! I thought we reached the 21st century?

Edited January 23, 2010 by asiawatcher

[Bilqis]

Treason.

Firing squad.

End of.

i think that would just be a beginning.

[aanon]

From Thairat.co.th leading stories (http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/60592). This is after the report covers Seh Daeng talking about other issues, including where he is now, and why:

My translation:

Besides this, Maj Gen Khattiya announced that he had appointed himself as the head of the redshirts' armed forces but gave an assurance that his intention was not to use the armed forces to perpetrate violence or to clash with the Army's forces, but merely to avoid clashes between the redshirts' armed forces and principal [Army] forces.

This puts a different (perhaps less sensational) spin on the story.

Edited January 23, 2010 by lopburi3
remove Thai language - lopburi3

[jdinasia]

This is a Nation article so take it with some salt. The Nation is famous for setting up the elite against the people. Just to keep out of the arms of the NCC the directors and owners have chosen to sell their sole and independence to the yellow shirts. That is why you do not find any critical note towards courts who apply double standards and no critical note towards people like Prem, Surayud or others.

I suppose that all people who have a democratic mind and who love freedom of speech are at war with the military. Not necessarily a war in which people get killed but at least a intellectual war. It is unforgiving and unacceptable that an institution that should work for the people grabbed power more than the military in any given African banana republic did. Worse it is always to un-seed the people elected by the poor and it seems always to benefit the rich and especially the Chinese Thai minority.

Agreed, I smell a rat. As the time draws closer for the reds to start their rallies and a decision on Thaksins court case, I think the

government and their supporters will use anything to discredit the reds and Thaksin, even by linking a nut case like this guy to the reds.

I wounder if the reds will deny he is now "a leader" if not I could change my opinion.

Wow lensta -- where have you been? Sae Daeng has been closely associated with the Reds for a long time and has publicly called for grenade attacks against people etc.

They didn't distance themselves from him then and they won't now. The amazing thing to me is that you see conspiracy by government supporters in a public statement made by Sae Daeng.

[jdinasia]

From Thairat.co.th leading stories (http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/60592). This is after the report covers Seh Daeng talking about other issues, including where he is now, and why:

My translation:

Besides this, Maj Gen Khattiya announced that he had appointed himself as the head of the redshirts' armed forces but gave an assurance that his intention was not to use the armed forces to perpetrate violence or to clash with the Army's forces, but merely to avoid clashes between the redshirts' armed forces and principal [Army] forces.

This puts a different (perhaps less sensational) spin on the story.

It does? after a declaration of war?

[BigBikeBKK]

Wonderful news- hope the military will take him at his word and use this "declaration of war" as the perfect excuse to put him down like the rabid dog he is along with any who are stupid enough to follow him. Good riddance!

[billyfix]

Wow did you see his website? What a nutcase!

Wow, my thai not so good but seems like this qoute is strange. From his website under one picture which shows new party office in Sanam Luang.

I believe he says his new party doesn't have much capital; it depends on the working people, but this is how the Nazi Party in Germany began and made Germany big and powerful.

Thank you for translating. That's it!

[wolf5370]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

Agreed, excellent post.

To support the red shirts is to support Thaksin. Westerners would be more open to some of the messages of the red shirts the moment they totally divorce themselves from Thaksin. So the reds are not xenophobic and the yellows are? I say both are. The reds attacked the international Asean conference shutting it down and shut down the gay political event in Chiang Mai (because it did not reflect traditional Lanna values) and Thaksin himself originally ruled under the Thai Love Thai party which is a quite xenophobic moniker, wouldn't you agree. I found your post pure propaganda. Truth Today is anything but. The other falsehood you perpetuate is that opposing the red Thaksinistas equals support for the yellows. Wrong. Totally wrong.

Yes, this is the same of it. The "Red Shirts" have some quite good views (IMO), but are run (or at least lorded over) by people from the political past who are just as hi-so as their supposed enemy. The Reds have to build up their own leaders and push out the old guard. If its a political party, it should use the power of the vote and such non-violent means (strikes and sit-ins etc) to prove its strength.

The world will put pressure on a government if the people show en-masse their disapproval in numbers without violence. When it is violent by intent, when there arte stupid threats such as this guy's, then the world's media calls them terrorist or rioters and supports the government. World pressure is important.

I was in the UK when the last coup went down - initial reports from the world's press was going on about Thaksin being userped while abroad on conference etc. Then about tanks, but all too soon it was pictures of the public putting flowers in the barrels of assualt rifles and turrets of tanks. Suddenly it was good news and anti-Thaksin stories started appearing. Not onloy does violence begget violence, it also blinds the media and becomes the story.

[chutai]

To support the red shirts is to support Thaksin.

Is there not another position, in so much that to have sympathy for the red shirts is also to oppose dictaotrships that came to power by using semi-terroristic means ?

Thaksin did some good things for the poor, some terrible things relating to human rights. I don't support him necessarily, but the present lot are a worse bunch , imo

Westerners would be more open to some of the messages of the red shirts the moment they totally divorce themselves from Thaksin.

Bt that's not going to happen is it. And anyway what Westerners think is a bit irrelevant , don't you think ?

So the reds are not xenophobic and the yellows are?

In my experience most Thai people are. Neither side has the hegemony on xenophobia. And that really isn't the issue either.

[animatic]

Another blow for tourism in the land of smiles (not)

The least of our worries as this is shaping up....

[ironhut]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

While I agree with practically everything you say here, I don't think this particular guy or his threats are much help to 'the cause'. How many of those soldier boys come from Yellow Shirt families (where their naes even in the lottery bin?). The red shirts (hate that name too) really need to rally behind a decent leader, not a wanted ex-PM who no one seriously belives is in it for Thailand, and not some self appointed warlord either. There must be someone in their camp thay can be brought to the fore wiothout the baggage of corruption that can make it a real force to be reckonedwith (and I mean political not militarial).

Ditto to comments on the well-written narrative in post 61. Believe the cause of the "reds" was clearly defined.

But agreed that a self-appointed warlord is not the way to go when suppressed. If there indeed are a majority of "reds" who are tired of the elitist actions of the "yellows", then a more civil...and perhaps more effective...way to manage the discrepancies in proper representation across the country is to have a leader who is democratically nominated and supported on behalf of the majority "reds".

As the last post mentioned, a self appointed warlord will not win friends or allegiance to your cause by the masses regardless of whether your cause is just...especially in Thailand.

At some point we need to achieve "orange"...which is what happens when homogeneous democratically mixing of "yellows" and "reds" occurs in a civil non-confrontational environment.

[VSteve]

This must be a joke.

The guys website is scary!

[Jingthing]

Bt that's not going to happen is it. And anyway what Westerners think is a bit irrelevant , don't you think ?

It is one factor among many. Thaksin tried to gather the sympathy of western democracies to support his so called pro democracy movement. Yet he can't travel to those very same western countries. The reds do care to get western support. They have failed miserably, and deservedly so (the shameful red thug shutdown of the Asean Pattaya summit sealed that deal). Thaksin has repeatedly tried to paint himself as some kind of Thai Mandella. Nobody in the west is buying that for a second.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[rixalex]

Is there not another position, in so much that to have sympathy for the red shirts is also to oppose dictaotrships that came to power by using semi-terroristic means ?

If you oppose dictatorships i think it would be hard to have any sympathy for a group that strives to whitewash a criminal of all charges and have him lead the country.