Chiang Mai In Chaos

[SpoliaOpima]

Surprise. This is no different than what the PAD and current government did to get into power. Although this article is an opinion, not a report, there will be some truth in the actual actions they say happened, I'm sure.

But one thing is better now than with what the PAD did; at least there name reflects the truth, instead of a load of bullsh*t like the last lot.

A bit naive. If the redskirts were interested in 'democracy' they'd wait for the next election. Their master obtained his position through a perversion of the electoral system, not via 'democracy.'

[ogb]

The PAD isn't the government. You have yet to sort out which parties are which. Back to school ...

Many Democrat Party members showed up at the PAD rallies, some have leadership roles in the PAD, and lets not forget the illustrious foreign minister, Kasit.

jdinasia

R.I.F. (Reading is Fundamental) --- Please start with "Feel free to look it up..." and work from there

You are the one who says you have evidence - put up, or .... ..

[Ulysses G.]

The last elections did not return a majority for ANY group in parlieament and thus the current government and the previous 2 governments have been coalition governments. This is common in parliamentary democracies. The fact that the parties that helped Samak and Somchai form governments had pledged to their own constituencies that they would not do so is of more concern than the fact that they jumped ship and sided with the Democrats to form the third government under the most recent elections...

Anybody have insomnia?

Just read this whole thread to fall in to a complete coma.

Thank God for orang37. His posts are entertaining, honest and thoughtful. We have quite enough rhetoric spewing, truth-twisting, broken record types on here.

[Samuian]

Well at least the "red shirts" are going to establish a sample of their "genuine democracy" in ChiangMai, Udon and Khon Kean - for EVRRYONE to see waht their "genuine democracy" is all about!

Shooting helpless people?

Threatening people, nay a whole nation, judges, generals and then turning every single word around -

lies and deception - can this be called "genuine democracy"?

Forget the Yellow shirts, forget the occupation of Suvannabhum, of Government house... it's over and if found to bein breach of any laws it will be dealt with.

What is the "genuine democracy" the red shirts, the UDD is trying to sell?

Why aren't they calling their leader and sponsor to face justice, as a good example first?

Why?

What "genuine democracy" are they trying to sell?

[ChiangMaiFun]

Well at least the "red shirts" are going to establish a sample of their "genuine democracy" in ChiangMai, Udon and Khon Kean - for EVRRYONE to see waht their "genuine democracy" is all about!

Shooting helpless people?

Threatening people, nay a whole nation, judges, generals and then turning every single word around -

lies and deception - can this be called "genuine democracy"?

Forget the Yellow shirts, forget the occupation of Suvannabhum, of Government house... it's over and if found to bein breach of any laws it will be dealt with.

What is the "genuine democracy" the red shirts, the UDD is trying to sell?

Why aren't they calling their leader and sponsor to face justice, as a good example first?

Why?

What "genuine democracy" are they trying to sell?

I, for one, have stated consistently that I am anti-violence of any hue... there is no genuine democracy in Thailand so lets get that clear - but i do believe that a vast majority of Thai's are not pro-yellow and 'feel' that the governemnt is unrepresentative etc. etc.

[ogb]

Why bother arguing with someone who still supports and justifies a military coup, yet thinks people who want elections are undemocratic?

The military coup was done to avoid elections - get it? !!!!!

[SpoliaOpima]

I stopped off at the redskirt demonstration in CM on Saturday. A huge portrait of Thaksin was positioned front and centre, as the visual focus of the stage. Those of you who think the UDD and Thaksin aren't inextricably linked are deluding yourselves, for whatever purpose.

If there were Demos who were members of the PAD in the past, there are none now. PAD now supports their own party, the NPP, and you can't belong to two parties at the same time.

On the other hand, look at all the ex-TRT/PPP/ and current PT members in the UDD, several of whom advocate violence. I don't think they are representative of the general rank and file of the PT either. But all appear to worship Pol Lt Col Thaksin.

[cmsally]

One of the main criticisms about parliamentary democracy is that the head of govt. is not directly elected. However as in UK, there is a general understanding/consensus that the head chosen by a party will be PM if that party achieves a majority.

Often you will hear of people switching parties when voting if they particularly dislike the head who would become PM. They often move to the LIbDem in the centre or more recently the Independent.

This is a major sticking point for coalition politics in the frame of parliamentary democracy as it stands in Thailand at the present time. We now have a situation of opposing sides, which has not really been evident in modern Thai politics in the last couple of decades at least.

In most areas a vote for Peau Thai would be equal to one against the democrats and vice versa, so basically what we have is a rearrangement of the inner sanctum which is directly in opposition to the peoples vote.

The present coalition as it stands has effectively sidelined the other main party which in fact was the majority vote winner in the past election. That would be bad enough in itself but you have all the other occurrences on top of that such as military intervention, PAD, outlawing of MPs etc etc. They have succeeded in marginalising a large section of the country which was just finding its political voice.

[jdinasia]

My plea for mob rule? How about YOU just say what YOU want to say and stop re-inventing my words? that would be a nice start?

I have sympathy for the red position - I am not a red (for a start I support Chelsea!) - I am not a supporter of Khun T., I do say that many people have concerns that the current yellow fellows have not got there through 'the people'.

I do not say that we should bring the current government down - simply let's 'test' the validity of that government - if they win they will get no bleating from me!

Is that clear? do not twist, bend nor distort my position please - thanky kindly

Are you not, in fact, calling for early elections? Do you not have to have the current government leave office early to have early elections? Is a 'test' needed when you admit that the current government was voted into place by the same members of parliament as the last 2 governments? Did you see the chart on the prior page showing actual numbers of votes cast? Did you not say that the popular vote was how you would base what YOU think of as being fair? (Not what a parliamentary democracy sets out as the goal-posts.) Did you not say that your basis for your thoughts are centered around people's 'feelings' rather than the law? (mob rule versus rule-of-law.) Did you not deny that Thaksin and the Reds are totally linked? Are you not linking the PAD with the Democrats?

I am not reinventing your words --- I am supplying context. You don't get to have it both ways early elections=bringing the current government down.

So ... some solid questions for you CMF------

Are you calling for early elections knowing full well that to do that means the current government must step down?

If you are calling for the current government to step down and hold early elections how does this fit with a democracy in your mind? You do admit that the current government is legal and that more than 50% of the people that vote for the Prime minister voted for Abhisit.

Do you admit that elections where one party is not allowed to campaign in an area is undemocratic? Do you think, given the current 'feelings' of the people you support, that they would allow the Democrat party to campaign openly in Isaan and the North in all areas, without resorting to violence or threats of violence?

Are you denying that the Red shirt agenda includes Thaksin as it's top priority?

Are you denying that a coalition government is an acceptable result of an election that does not give any single party more than 50% of the seats in Parliament, and if so how do you explain your acceptance of the Samak and Somchai governments?

Do you deny that the people you support (the red shirts) lack the fundamental understanding of the Parliamentary system of democracy in a multi-party country? (Why else would they 'feel' that this government is less legitimate than the past 2?)

Did you look at the voting chart provided by lannarebirth? Now -- what do you say in response to that chart?

Do you admit that parties that helped Samak and Somchai get elected promised their own constituencies that they would NOT do that?

[Ricardo]

The present coalition as it stands has effectively sidelined the other main party which in fact was the majority vote winner in the past election.

Priceless helpfully posted (Post #128) the election-results, which show (on the proportional voting) 14,084,265 for the Democrats &14,071,799 for PPP, how do you make that out to be a majority vote for the PPP ?

My own take on it was, the PPP & Dems are clearly both significant parties, but neither achieved an overall majority, and the rest is down to normal coalition-politics, a game which was won first by the PPP but then later-on by the Dems.

TRT/PPP/PTP were initially the ultimate coalition-government, formed even before the elections which brought them to power in 2001 & 2005, but now falling apart into their constituent-groups again. A good thing too, as that coalition was potentially so strong as to be unbeatable, which is in-itself undemocratic, and led its leaders to believe that they could get away with doing anything they liked, without fear of the consequences.

The simple fact is, there will always be a substantial-minority of voters, who don't get the government they voted for, and people will always feel aggrieved about this.

But they should protest by peaceful-meetings, or exposing the corruption of the lot in-power, as the PAD used to do to Thaksin/TRT & the Red-Shirts are now trying to do. Not by threatening judges, promising to invade police-stations (or Government-House), telling people to bring a bottle of petrol to the demo, or behaving in an intolerant and undemocratic way, as 'Rak CM 51' seem to.

Meanwhile these (IMO overstated) claims of Chiang Mai being 'In Chaos' are clearly damaging to tourism, over and above the effects of the global economic crisis, and should be condemned by us all as untrue.

[toptuan]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV friends,

When we read something like this : we ask ourselves :

1. Who wrote this at this particular time for what motive ?

2. Who owns the paper that published this : what is their source of revenue, and who pays the writer. Is the paper "officially" associated with a given political party ?

3. Is this being reported as "news," or is it an "op-ed," or "editorial."

4. How could we possibly evaluate the accuracy of the details (answer : we can't)

Then we just pray that this country we love, Thailand, and in which we are a guest, finds its own path to peace ... in spite of history, and the preponderance of evidence that the "path to peace" most often meanders across the "killing fields" on its way to ... ?

And in public here, we have no opinions.

best, ~o:37;

Great list of questions I'm going to incorporate into Unit 12 of my Journalism class, titled "Yellow Journalism."

Thanks

TT

[cmsally]

Does Thailand operate under proportional representation or number of seats gained?

I thought it was number of seats which makes the point of proportional rep. beside the point until they change the system.

[Ricardo]

Does Thailand operate under proportional representation or number of seats gained?

I thought it was number of seats which makes the point of proportional rep. beside the point until they change the system.

True, but since some 80 of those seats are allocated according to the proportional-vote, it is still relevant, and not totally "beside the point".

Either way PPP didn't get a majority, which is why I tend to respond, whenever other posters (not you) try to claim that Thaksin's supporters still have majority support in the country. The December-2007 results do not appear to support that claim.

It will certainly be interesting to see, at the next election whenever, whether his support has continued to decline or grown again, following the PAD/Swampy affair and Red-Songkran and Cambodia.

[Priceless]

Does Thailand operate under proportional representation or number of seats gained?

I thought it was number of seats which makes the point of proportional rep. beside the point until they change the system.

Again, I have no horse in this race but, for the sake of the discussion, you should decide what you are talking about. In an earlier post you said:

'The present coalition as it stands has effectively sidelined the other main party which in fact was the majority vote winner in the past election. [...] They have succeeded in marginalising a large section of the country which was just finding its political voice.'

When somebody points out that the Democrat party in fact got more "proportional votes" than the People Power Party (PPP), you conveniently switch to seats instead. In fact PPP did not get a majority of seats either, though they got close. Furthermore, the party has since split, with a significant number of MPs (Bhumjaithai) now belonging to the government coalition.

Thailand obviously "operates" under the number of seats in parliament. These are however distributed in a somewhat unusual fashion in that 400 seats are elected in (mostly) three-seat constituencies and a further 80 seats according to a separate proportional vote. If you look at the number of votes in my previously posted table, you'll find that in the "constituency voting", PPP got ~26 million votes, with the other parties receiving ~43 million.

/ Priceless

PS 'Ricardo' beat me to it while I was posting.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Priceless

[jdinasia]

Any time ANY group in parliament fails to get 50% of the seats they may be relegated to being the opposition party. You can have more seats than any other single party and not be able to form a coalition. It is part and parcel with the parliamentary system.

[mccw]

Let's face it .. the reds have shown that the only thing they see is blood and the only reason for it is Thaksin's money. They aren't "for" democracy -- they won't even let other political parties campaign. They aren't for free speech. They aren't for non-violence. They have one real agenda and that is the return of Thaksin and his wallet.

True say.

I wonder if these red lovin falangs really thought about the facts of how these vicious little bastards been carrying on or just listening their wives repeate the bullshit thats fed to some socials through red media and gossip shop. I can understand thais who want a piece of Takis money, even if they are putting their greed before the countries interests, but falang?

Only a couple hundred extreem reds; most thais i speak to and know are sick of em; but not too keen to talk too much in public in case some looney red overhears and kicks off; terrible that the majority has to suffer because of a small bunch of nutters in the pay of a cowardly criminal.

I hate having to see his cheating face on those billboards around town an all.

Abhisit is most sane and sensible prime minster thailand has probably ever had in my opinion; actually got real good policies to help all the country if any one cares to actually listen to what he's saying.

[richard10365]

Sorry...I just noticed this thread.....is there something happening in Chiang Mai other than day to day business. I have lived here now for more than 3 years and everything looks the same to me. Business as usual.

[LaoPo]

Chiang Mai In Chaos

I'm surprised so many stepped in this trap, set up on Jan 28th by the OP Mr. Prine who was banned 2 days later on Jan 30th...

Likely to be one of the many alter ego's of a formerly banned member but he's probably back already with another one....aren't you Mr. X ??

LaoPo

Edited February 2, 2010 by LaoPo

[Ricardo]

Sorry...I just noticed this thread.....is there something happening in Chiang Mai other than day to day business. I have lived here now for more than 3 years and everything looks the same to me. Business as usual.

Quite.

Despite the somewhat-alarmist title of this thread, things are relatively-normal up here.

Certainly nothing to deter any potential-tourists !

[Ulysses G.]

Thank you. I have a warm spot for "fugitives" by the way.

[PeaceBlondie]

We who are of the milk ilk rather than the silk ilk think we cannot shirk our shrinks in ink...I'm so confused.

[Ulysses G.]

We who are of the milk ilk

I wonder how many straights get this that have not spent a lot of time in San Francisco?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

Is it a good time then, this time of confusion, of squabble over the very essence of "ilk," to place your bets on the cognitive horse named "Apocalypse Now" to win by a nose in the third ?

A few years ago, when the music stopped, and the military had to re-arrange the chairs so the government could sit down again, we had the "Jatukham" amulet craze sweep our beloved adopted country : that was about Vishnu (Thai "Visanu"), the "preserver."

And now we have our beloved Lanna swept by rumors of deadly phone numbers : Killer Cell Phones for Lanna : by the way if you own a sim-card-number with four "threes" ending in "67," we will trade you a superb magical ithyphallic talisman from Cambodia for it, just PM us.

Those of you who have followed, in the last ten years, the involvement of Thai political figures with astrology, and with "sanae" (magic), and who have observed with fascinated horror some of the symbolic gestures done (and incredible rumours "stirred up") in the events of last year's crisis of two colors, and who know that for Thais that Cambodian magic is the strongest, most potent, most dangerous ...

May wish to rev up your paranoia engines with the following high-octane fuel :

We are on the verge of that time of year particularly sacred to Shiva, the "destroyer," (did you know that "Issarn" refers to "Issuan," or "Lord Shiva," and means "land of Shiva" ?). On the 12th. of this month India will celebrate Mahashivaratri, the most limnal festival for Sivaites. MahaSivaRatri

We know the well-documented belief by a certain Khun T. that the number #10 is specially lucky for him; we predict that on the tenth of this month Khun T. will be in Cambodia, and will be using the services of its dreaded master-sorcerers.

And what then could be unleashed ? Well, for the ensuing psychic horror : we best turn to a visionary like William Blake : (from "The Marriage of Heaven and hel_l") :

"But now, from between the black & white spiders, a cloud and fire burst and rolled thro' the deep black'ning all beneath, so that the nether deep grew black as a sea, & rolled with a terrible noise; beneath us was nothing now to be seen but a black tempest, till looking east between the clouds & the waves, we saw a cataract of blood mixed with fire, and not many stones' throw from us appear'd and sunk again the scaly fold of a monstrous serpent; at last, to the east, distant about three degrees appear'd a fiery crest above the waves; slowly it reared like a ridge of golden rocks, till we discover'd two globes of crimson fire, from which the sea fled away in clouds of smoke; and now we saw, it was the head of Leviathan; his forehead was divided into streaks of green & purple like those on a tyger's forehead: soon we saw his mouth & red gills hang just above the raging foam tinging the black deep with beams of blood, advancing toward us with all the fury of a spiritual existence."

Sweet dreams now.

beast, ~o:37;

[ogb]

I'll have a crack at them too

Are you calling for early elections knowing full well that to do that means the current government must step down?

You cannot deny that a significant section of the community has been disenfranchised by events that have transpired over the last few years, and the process by which the current government came to power is very dubious (to say the least!). Military coups, Constitutional/Judicial nobbling, recalcitrant military & police refusing to act on government instructions/answering to another authority, Unpunished invasions of international airports etc

Blind Freddy can see that there has been much outside influence, and the best way to settle things is to have a new election that all parties abide by, without the loser resorting to undemocratic means of getting power.

Unfortunately before an election can be held there are constititional matters which need to be resolved because a military junta effectively imposed a new constitution after a farcical 'take it, or one we choose' referendum.

In my view there should be a straight referendum asking the people to choose between to 2007 & 1997 contuitutions.

Once that has been decided, then new elections should be held, and everyone (including 'unelected institutions') should accept the results.

Vote buying was a problem in the past, but the political awareness has arisen oven the last few years, and it is generally accepted the last election was considered one of the cleanest. The initial victor of that election was not given a fair chance to function as a government, and faced numerous dirty tricks including by a somehow 'protected' PAD

The current government has admitted Thailand is divided, and when it came to power it spoke often about reconcilation, but its is clear now that was only talk, not intention. A government truly intrested in reconciliation should willingly step down for new elections to be held under a fair constitution.

If you are calling for the current government to step down and hold early elections how does this fit with a democracy in your mind? You do admit that the current government is legal and that more than 50% of the people that vote for the Prime minister voted for Abhisit.

See above about how this government came to power - what could be more democratic than letting the people choose a constitution, and having an election?

(certainly not a miltaery coup - which I note you still support & justify!)

Do you admit that elections where one party is not allowed to campaign in an area is undemocratic? Do you think, given the current 'feelings' of the people you support, that they would allow the Democrat party to campaign openly in Isaan and the North in all areas, without resorting to violence or threats of violence?

Thats never a good situation, but unfortunately thats the bed the government has made for itself, by getting into bed with unsavory characters.

The violence perpetrated by the reds has been no worse than that by the yellows, and from my personal perswective I have found rank & file reds much more tolerant than their yellow counterparts.

The situation you describe in the North & Isaan is mirrored to some extent in the South, and you should also recall that the military junta made things very difficult for the red aligned parties leading up to the last election.

So overall I think you are overstating the problem, using it as a way to justify your team staying in power.

Are you denying that the Red shirt agenda includes Thaksin as it's top priority?

From the red events I have attended there is no denying that Thaksin is a big factor. There's also no denying he is a very popular figure because he is the first who gave the poor a voice, a sense of power, and also real benefits to try to bring them up in society. However the reds also place much emphasis on democracy, and many have joined the movement not for a love of Thaksin, but for a hate of undemocratic activities like military coups.

Thaksin has never been defeated in an election, so its understandable that many want him back. Surely you can see that military coup was no way for an undefeated PM to lose his title (it was a 'below the belt' act)

Are you denying that a coalition government is an acceptable result of an election that does not give any single party more than 50% of the seats in Parliament, and if so how do you explain your acceptance of the Samak and Somchai governments?

No, coalition governments are perfectly acceptable to me under a parliamentary democracy system.

Do you deny that the people you support (the red shirts) lack the fundamental understanding of the Parliamentary system of democracy in a multi-party country? (Why else would they 'feel' that this government is less legitimate than the past 2?)

Yes I would deny it - see answer to first question.

I would also add that it is clear that the red side of the fence has a much greater understanding of the 'spirit' of democracy than the yellow side, who used undemocratic and illegal methods to get their team into power, and even were audacious enough at one stage to propose a watering down of the one man one vote sytem!

Did you look at the voting chart provided by lannarebirth? Now -- what do you say in response to that chart?

See above - no need to comment really

Do you admit that parties that helped Samak and Somchai get elected promised their own constituencies that they would NOT do that?

Maybe I will leave this one to CMF alone, as I dont understand it, other than to say in most democracies politicians never seem to be held accountable for their promises, other than next time at the ballot box.

Just saw that CMF has already posted his response - hope he doesn't mind me providing my thoughts too

[jdinasia]

CMF --- I would lose? I am not able to vote in Thailand nor am I able to hold public office.

OGB missed the boat on the issue of legitimacy entirely --- if one government was legit then all three are. Since the issue of parties switching from their promised position to Samak wasn't an issue, then the same parties switching from Somchai to the Dems can't be an issue

Your mention of tanks on the streets was in conjunction with the Dems not being allowed to campaign in Isaan and the North.

No dithering at all CMF .. parties changed alliances twice and I have no problem with it. I thought it stunk when they sided with Samak after promising their voters they would not, but I accepted it. I am sure that the Reds that UNDERSTAND parliamentary democracy think it stinks that they switched back, but they accept it

[ogb]

CMF --- I would lose? I am not able to vote in Thailand nor am I able to hold public office.

OGB missed the boat on the issue of legitimacy entirely --- if one government was legit then all three are. Since the issue of parties switching from their promised position to Samak wasn't an issue, then the same parties switching from Somchai to the Dems can't be an issue

Your mention of tanks on the streets was in conjunction with the Dems not being allowed to campaign in Isaan and the North.

No dithering at all CMF .. parties changed alliances twice and I have no problem with it. I thought it stunk when they sided with Samak after promising their voters they would not, but I accepted it. I am sure that the Reds that UNDERSTAND parliamentary democracy think it stinks that they switched back, but they accept it

It's you who missed it entirely - I never said one government lacked legitimacy based solely on the election results - you conveniently keep ignoring all the other undemocratic, unconstitutional & illegal actions that all stem from a military coup which removed the elected government.

You are blinkered, and I expect eventually will be a much sorer loser than the red shirts ever were.

[caf]

I'll post again for Ulysses benefit.

"I wonder how many straights get this that have not spent a lot of time in San Francisco?

"I did not understand it but why should I; it's off topic anyway

CM does not seem to me to be in chaos. Just the usual daily propaganda.

caf

The reason I don't understand is presumably because I am straight. Homosexual comments are off topic anyway. Though I accept it was not you who started it.

Is there a problem with keeping on topic, you seem to delight in disrupting threads. one of your friends sent me a pm saying that he likes "pissing people off on tv". you following his example.? I'll post the pm if you like to a mod, you were referred to in it.

stop the personal attacks

caf

[Ulysses G.]

stop the personal attacks

caf

I asked you a simple question about something that you posted that was not an attack of any sort. Mellow out dude.

[mcgriffith]

Ladies and Gentlemen.

Whew.

If this is just going to devolve into a tit-for-tat political argument....what say we just meet for a beer, or coffee, or a High Colonic at a place of our mutual choosing?

Not trying to stifle or suppress opinion at all. I totally believe, as does Thai Visa, in the rights of all members to express themselves.

But this is getting a bit repetitive.

Am I the only bystander who feels this way?

[jdinasia]

Ladies and Gentlemen.

Whew.

If this is just going to devolve into a tit-for-tat political argument....what say we just meet for a beer, or coffee, or a High Colonic at a place of our mutual choosing?

Not trying to stifle or suppress opinion at all. I totally believe, as does Thai Visa, in the rights of all members to express themselves.

But this is getting a bit repetitive.

Am I the only bystander who feels this way?

Nope --- trust me writing the same thing over and over and watching people duck the issues gets old even for those of us with strong views on the matter! (of course mine are the 'correct" views :-)

I do think at some point though that folks spouting what to me are silly lines and then ducking the questions that follow will eventually see the light! They will remember there wasn't an 'elected government' when the coup took place etc

Then again maybe that is just wishful thinking !