Tiger Temple Goes To Court

[Curt1591]

KANCHANABURI, Thailand, February 3, 2010 (ENS) - Three advocates for wildlife conservation and welfare appeared in a Kanchanaburi court this morning to answer charges of defamation brought by the Tiger Temple, a tourist attraction in Kanchanaburi.

Edwin Wiek, founder and director of Wildlife Friends of Thailand, a wildlife rescue center near Hua Hin, has been charged along with two other conservationists over remarks in an April 2009 article published in the "Thai Post," a daily Thai-language newspaper. In the report, accusations were made concerning illegal possession of and trade in tigers at the temple, and abuse of the animals.

The other two defendants are Sawan Sangbunlang of the Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Dr. Surapon Duangkae of the Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage. This organization closed in July 2009 due to lack of funds.

If convicted, they could face jail sentences

source http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2010/2010-02-03-01.html

Once again, you will notice that maybe 5% is "reporting" on the trial, while 95% is berating the temple.

I am really interested in the trial, and any evidence presented. Unfortunately, all the "news" seems to be based on WFFT press releases.

[desi]

I am really interested in the trial, and any evidence presented. Unfortunately, all the "news" seems to be based on WFFT press releases.

You could always follow Edwin's twitter... no guarantees, of course.

[Garry9999]

I am really interested in the trial, and any evidence presented. Unfortunately, all the "news" seems to be based on WFFT press releases.

You could always follow Edwin's twitter... no guarantees, of course.

Not much on the twitter site either?

[Garry9999]

Out on bail, back to see prosecutor on Monday again.Getting ready to counter sue now! It's illegal to profit from confiscated goods/Thai law http://twitter.com/EdwinWiek

[tw25rw]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

[Bilqis]

As I understand it the reeding program is illegal

THe place was also officially "closed" by the Thai authorities in 2002. As there is nowhere to put the Tigers it has not been enforced.

[Curt1591]

Yet, in 2009, it was granted permission to operate as a zoo.

Source

[Bilqis]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

So, are you saying.

firstly that the report is false

and

secondly the Temple is OK?

[Curt1591]

I may have found what could turn out to be an objective blog on the trial!

Women Learning Thai

[tw25rw]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

So, are you saying.

firstly that the report is false

and

secondly the Temple is OK?

Read the lines, not between them.

[Bilqis]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

So, are you saying.

firstly that the report is false

and

secondly the Temple is OK?

Read the lines, not between them.

so I take it that you are quite happy to let the situation at the Tiger Temple continue? ...or you don't be;ieve thier is a situation there at all...or are you just slagging off the messenger and the message is still true?

Please could you clarify your position - just saying that the CWI are not to be trusted doesn't help at all - what are we to infer from this.?

do you consider some of the report to be false?

Which parts do you think are false?

[tw25rw]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

So, are you saying.

firstly that the report is false

and

secondly the Temple is OK?

Read the lines, not between them.

so I take it that you are quite happy to let the situation at the Tiger Temple continue? ...or you don't be;ieve thier is a situation there at all...or are you just slagging off the messenger and the message is still true?

Please could you clarify your position - just saying that the CWI are not to be trusted doesn't help at all - what are we to infer from this.?

do you consider some of the report to be false?

Which parts do you think are false?

Oh <deleted>.

I'm saying that CWI raise money for themselves using the names of other charities that they may or may not be making a donation to. They don't do any actual charitable work.

As for the temple, I went there. Didn't see any evidence of the animals being drugged or mistreated any more than any other captive animal. I doubt these CWI people ever did any "research" requiring them to set foot outside their private residence in Sussex.

[Nignoy]

All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of hybrid wildlife is zero.

The export or exchange of protected wildlife such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species).

A simple question... Ok, we have a temple full of hybrid tigers, with a conservation value perceived at zero. So why are zero valued tigers being protected? The only danger I see is if they mess with the official tiger breeding program already in place around the world.

The temple (seems to be) breeding the tigers like crazy (I saw 15+ babies from at least three different litters - 4 months, 6 months and more). So these particular tigers are adding to the world's tiger count, but due to the unprofessionalism of their breeding program they can't be counted.

Why not check if tigers bred in the temple are mentioned or registered in the asian tiger stud book,I know there is a studbook for Siberian Tigers because I worked on it many moons ago at its initial start, so there must be an availablebreeding record for asian tigers

[Bilqis]

so I take it that you are quite happy to let the situation at the Tiger Temple continue? ...or you don't be;ieve thier is a situation there at all...or are you just slagging off the messenger and the message is still true?

Please could you clarify your position - just saying that the CWI are not to be trusted doesn't help at all - what are we to infer from this.?

do you consider some of the report to be false?

Which parts do you think are false?

Oh <deleted>.

I'm saying that CWI raise money for themselves using the names of other charities that they may or may not be making a donation to. They don't do any actual charitable work.

As for the temple, I went there. Didn't see any evidence of the animals being drugged or mistreated any more than any other captive animal. I doubt these CWI people ever did any "research" requiring them to set foot outside their private residence in Sussex.

i might add the Temple obviously takes the report more seriously than you do. They even agreed with some of the allegations.

[Bilqis]

All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of hybrid wildlife is zero.

The export or exchange of protected wildlife such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species).

A simple question... Ok, we have a temple full of hybrid tigers, with a conservation value perceived at zero. So why are zero valued tigers being protected? The only danger I see is if they mess with the official tiger breeding program already in place around the world.

The temple (seems to be) breeding the tigers like crazy (I saw 15+ babies from at least three different litters - 4 months, 6 months and more). So these particular tigers are adding to the world's tiger count, but due to the unprofessionalism of their breeding program they can't be counted.

Why not check if tigers bred in the temple are mentioned or registered in the asian tiger stud book,I know there is a studbook for Siberian Tigers because I worked on it many moons ago at its initial start, so there must be an availablebreeding record for asian tigers

this check was done - hence the complaint about the breeding program which is illegal anyway . THere was meant to have been some bood tests to try and trace DNA, I believe but there don't seem to be any results.

[Curt1591]

CWI are parasites who take money *out* of conservation and should not be trusted

So, are you saying.

firstly that the report is false

and

secondly the Temple is OK?

Read the lines, not between them.

But often, when reading an organization's rhetoric, it is good to read between the lines.

True, false or otherwise, the report is innuendo, opinions, and accusations.

In a country where inhumanity to both man and beast is the norm, this place doesn't rank high on my list of priorities. The number of tigers affected by the temple probably doesn't equal the number of diseased, crippled, hungry animals on my soi alone!

Whatever it's classification, good, bad, or otherwise, this temple is nothing more than a money maker on both sides of the fence.

[tw25rw]

i might add the Temple obviously takes the report more seriously than you do. They even agreed with some of the allegations.

Maybe they do. Maybe there's some truth in it. But someone early on it this thread raised the name CWI so I mentioned what I know about them because I know that anything they say is unreliable. They are a profit driven organisation masquerading as a legitimate charity. Now stop directing your crap at me.

[Bilqis]

i might add the Temple obviously takes the report more seriously than you do. They even agreed with some of the allegations.

Maybe they do. Maybe there's some truth in it. But someone early on it this thread raised the name CWI so I mentioned what I know about them because I know that anything they say is unreliable. They are a profit driven organisation masquerading as a legitimate charity. Now stop directing your crap at me.

would you care to say how you come to this opinion about CWI?

a source however vague would be useful.

[desi]

I may have found what could turn out to be an objective blog on the trial! I may have found what could turn out to be an objective blog on the trial!

Women Learning Thai

Tiger Temple Interview: Dr Somchai

I would also like to know more about CWI and their report.

There are many vague stories/opinions going around the internet about the temple.

One of the eye witness reports comes off sounding like a hysterical person with ziltch knowledge of large animals. Tigers are not house cats. From what I experienced, you cannot softly stroke a tiger and expect to get its attention.

Most of all, I would like to hear from a trained vet.

[Garry9999]

The bottom line is, the Tiger Temple is not likely to be any better or worse than the many Elephant parks, crocodile farms or snake shows in Thailand.

If you don't like it, don't go. No tourists, no Tiger Temple.

[desi]

The bottom line is, the Tiger Temple is not likely to be any better or worse than the many Elephant parks, crocodile farms or snake shows in Thailand.

If you don't like it, don't go. No tourists, no Tiger Temple.

Hmmm... the way I look at it is this: The more attention and interaction the Tiger Temple gets, the more likely they are to improve their rough spots. Because I seriously doubt that they are going to close shop.

They now have vets coming. But I'm not sure if their presence is on a regular schedule. When I was there, a young veterinary student was doing her training at the temple. I don't recall how many times she'd been back, but she did have future plans to assist at the temple. I asked about outside testing of the tigers, but she said that it was all done by those based in Thailand. Pity, as it would put a lot of fears to rest.

I did feel concern over the volunteers though. One strange character had only been at the temple a few weeks. He was responding to questions from tourists and seemed to be pulling answers out of thin air. So I guess it was a good thing that he was more intent on telling his life story, than actually talking about the Tiger Temple! From what he was saying, it was all a lark to him, a minor part of his Asian vacation experience. He was not trained or educated. He was being used as a body to move tourists around the temple (and like handing someone a whistle, it was a job he was over zealous with). But his opinions and actions were what visitors to the temple went away with.

[Bilqis]

The bottom line is, the Tiger Temple is not likely to be any better or worse than the many Elephant parks, crocodile farms or snake shows in Thailand.

If you don't like it, don't go. No tourists, no Tiger Temple.

i don't see that as bottom line.

corbett's tiger subspecies is severely endangered - there are about 350 tigers in the region around Thailand and this is a 70% drop over 10 years.

elephants and crocs, no matter how badly treated are not as threatened as a species.

The main problem with the Temple is their actions are very amateur or lead by religious ideas, the result is that they are most likely actually HARMING the last remaining gene-pool of this sub-species. The testing apparently revealed that thanks to their unsupervised, illegal breeding program the tigers there are mostly hybrids and completely useless for any conservation purposes. the same criticism cannot be leveled at the appallingly run croc and elephant parks.

[Bilqis]

The bottom line is, the Tiger Temple is not likely to be any better or worse than the many Elephant parks, crocodile farms or snake shows in Thailand.

If you don't like it, don't go. No tourists, no Tiger Temple.

Hmmm... the way I look at it is this: The more attention and interaction the Tiger Temple gets, the more likely they are to improve their rough spots. Because I seriously doubt that they are going to close shop.

They now have vets coming. But I'm not sure if their presence is on a regular schedule. When I was there, a young veterinary student was doing her training at the temple. I don't recall how many times she'd been back, but she did have future plans to assist at the temple. I asked about outside testing of the tigers, but she said that it was all done by those based in Thailand. Pity, as it would put a lot of fears to rest.

I did feel concern over the volunteers though. One strange character had only been at the temple a few weeks. He was responding to questions from tourists and seemed to be pulling answers out of thin air. So I guess it was a good thing that he was more intent on telling his life story, than actually talking about the Tiger Temple! From what he was saying, it was all a lark to him, a minor part of his Asian vacation experience. He was not trained or educated. He was being used as a body to move tourists around the temple (and like handing someone a whistle, it was a job he was over zealous with). But his opinions and actions were what visitors to the temple went away with.

The tempe has had 10 years of criticism - it has REFUSED professional help and advice - Tigers are unique even when it comes to big cats - the "trained" vet is not what is needed but a Tiger conservation specialist team. (vets do not have a monopoly on animal welfare and behaviour).

Closing the place was never a practical option and not asked for by any of the bodies concerned. What they want is for the place to be run PROPERLY.

[Bilqis]

I have to sa that volunteers are a strange mix - many people are obsessed with the idea of "working with animals" to the point that they really are blinded to any rational theory or consideration of what they are actually doing - they re a kind of junky who will do anything to get up close to the animal of their choice

The temple is a CONSERVATION issue as well as an animal husbandry one, and requires some know;edge at least on environmental, conservation and animals behavioural theories.

I notice apart from casually observed lethargy, that hardly any mention of the behaviour of these animals has been made, whether in or out of their cages.many people assume that the movements of an animal in a cage a re "normal" as that is what they have seen t so many zoos etc., but now we know that they indicate far more serious behavioural problems and discomfort for the animals.

[desi]

The tempe has had 10 years of criticism - it has REFUSED professional help and advice - Tigers are unique even when it comes to big cats - the "trained" vet is not what is needed but a Tiger conservation specialist team. Closing the place was never a practical option and not asked for by any of the bodies concerned. What they want is for the place to be run PROPERLY.

Refusing, ignoring, bypassing professional advice is not new to Thailand (or SE Asia, for that matter). I realise that it does not make this issue any less frustrating, but it's the way things are. Seeing how this particular one pans out will be interesting.

Has anyone heard from the latest court case?

[Bilqis]

The tempe has had 10 years of criticism - it has REFUSED professional help and advice - Tigers are unique even when it comes to big cats - the "trained" vet is not what is needed but a Tiger conservation specialist team. Closing the place was never a practical option and not asked for by any of the bodies concerned. What they want is for the place to be run PROPERLY.

Refusing, ignoring, bypassing professional advice is not new to Thailand (or SE Asia, for that matter). I realise that it does not make this issue any less frustrating, but it's the way things are. Seeing how this particular one pans out will be interesting.

Has anyone heard from the latest court case?

the judge keeps putting the hearing date back.

[Curt1591]

I would also like to know more about CWI and their report.

There are many vague stories/opinions going around the internet about the temple.

Here is a link to the CWI report: Tiger Temple

See if you can find anything that goes beyond opinion or speculation.

[Tod Daniels]

On the many occasions I've had a chance to visit the Tiger Temple I too was flummoxed by the foreign volunteers penchants for wearing 'blinders' when confronted with things that clearly are 'less than idea' when dealing with or keeping big cats. They are almost rabid in their single-mindedness when it comes to what they perceive they are doing to further the conservation of this species of big cat.

Tigers in the wild are clearly on their way out in anything but the most remote and isolated settings; due to habitat fragmentation, rampant poaching and the myriad of other things problematic to a top predator species co-existing with humans.

A simple perusal of You Tube with "Tiger Temple Thailand" as the search criteria will yield a plethora of videos revealing some questionable treatment of the tigers by their native thai caretakers. There were also some under cover videos taken showing trucks arriving and departing in the middle of the nite for parts unknown with tigers. (Although they may now not be available for viewing).

It is quite the conundrum, and I don't pretend to know the answer.

Unfortunately for the tigers, I believe any viable solutions will neither be easily figured out, nor easily implemented given the mindset of the people who run the temple on a day to day basis and their refusal to have any professional oversight in what they clearly see as their business.

[desi]

I would also like to know more about CWI and their report.

There are many vague stories/opinions going around the internet about the temple.

Here is a link to the CWI report: Tiger Temple

See if you can find anything that goes beyond opinion or speculation.

Thanks. But I read that report quite awhile ago. In some places it is obviously out of date (there has been progress made at the temple, children are not allowed, etc). And some of the statements raise even more questions as they were not backed up by facts, so they fall under the opinion category instead.

And like was mentioned previously, what are their qualifications? And was the person who wrote that report about the Tiger Temple qualified? CWI also talks about reports from tourists and volunteers, but are any of those qualified to offer an opinion? I am of the opinion that the tigers were drugged on my first visit, but I acknowledge that it is merely an opinion from yet another disgruntled tourist. I have no proof.

The internet is awash with reports and opinions about the Tiger Temple. Where are the qualified reports? I emailed one vet who visited the temple but he would not answer my questions. He is a specialist in animal behaviour (for one, I was asking about the harm done to tigers involved in photo shoots - a point brought up in the report), but he replied that he is not qualified to comment. So, who is?

[Curt1591]

he replied that he is not qualified to comment. So, who is?

Khunwilko is, but he's been banned!

Right Bilqis?