Put It To A Vote

[tigerfish]

put it to a vote.(sin sod)

1st issue; in your honest opinion, should it be paid. most of us, not all are expats living here in the land of smile. but does the question of having to pay sin sod sit well with you. yes it is a thai thing, but most of us are from countries were this sort of thing is un-heard of. in most case its the reverse, were i come from in the u.k. the parents of the wife to be usually pay for the wedding, reception party, honeymoon etc... although in these modern times has changed slightly, with the parents of the groom going 1/2s with the parents of the bride. there may be some of you who have already gone through the process and have had it come back to bite you. ie. failed marrige and the ex-wife has taken you for all your worth or the now in-laws, see you as the farang with the words atm printed on your forehead. on the flip side there may be some of you out there that have benefitted from the process.

so answers please yes or no. does it goe against or hand in hand, with your principals, beliefs and the way you were brought up to deal with such things.

2nd issue; although interesting to read about and gain advice, listen to posters views and experiences on the subject. more often than not the subject can cause alot of friction between several fractions of posters. i am mostly talking about several posts in the last few months concerning farangs wanting to marry a girl who live in a village, father in-law to be wants a large sum of money and comes from a certain part of the country. then all hel_l breaks loose. with posters flaming each other in different ways over their own particular way of looking at the issue in hand.

so what to do? keep the posts coming in to the general forum(seeing that it is a forum and all views and opions are valid) and have it turn into a free for all and hope the moderators do their job, in a sensible and un-biased way.

or! have the posts designated to a particular forum area, i.e advice, local etc.... let those posters, expats and forums moderators who may or maynot have the experience, expertease in a relavant field thrash it out themselves and leave the other aprts of the forums to those who wish to have a cival disscussion over a particular issue.

again answers yes or no, and why!

[a2396]

What's the point of conducting a poll about this? It sounds like many guys are willing paying this and more, because they are "hooked" on the lady. In my opinion the whole business is ridiculous, outmoded nonsense. Much of the justification heard about this is for the purpose of face or "keeping up with the Joneses" another facet of the culture here that could stand to be minimized. It's not going to end until people start refusing to pay. Not likely anytime soon.

[bina]

really? on my ex husband's and my ketuba (jewish marriage contract) i was given the price of 1000 ol israeli shekels by the kibbutz (1 NIS NOW!). the money in the ketuba is meant to be protection for the woman if she gets divorced, it is the minimum that the ex is supposed to pay as one time off payment. among well to do and well connected families, the ketuba price (bride price paid by the man) can be in the thousands or ten thousands. my sister, modern bostonian feminist, has a very well though out ketuba price. the ketuba is witnessed and signed by the men in the families and the rabbi.

the woman (in the old days) would bring her bride price with her to the marriage, and it would be hers again if it broke up.

dont think there is anything wrong with sin sod/bride prices.... the problem seems to be in how western men perceive the functional purpose behind it, and howit is used/abused by thai women with farang as opposed to thai husbands. i find that if a man doesnt want to pay the sin sod, he may perhaps have other problems with cultural differences between thais and the man's own culture.

whats the difference between a sin sod and an engagement ring that cost a couple thousand dollars of diamonds? its the same thing: a promise of marriage and money for the bride to keep if she needs it (u could pawn off the engagement ring).

the arab men here , when engaged to a girl, spend thousands of shekels on the presents they MUST give to their fiancee: expensive gold and diamond jewelry, tailor made clothes, cell phones etc. and these are modern men and women, fairly educated, good families, not fallaheen (field workers). it is expected by both sides. they MUST build a house and furnish it before the wedding is consumated. every guy working with us is busting his balls from the minute they have the engagement party until the wedding, usually a few years down the line.

a prenuptioal agreement seems to be the modern version of the sin sot. nothing wrong with that either.

bina

israel

[nasajsc]

The westerner can pay, but that sets a precedent - he will then be paying for the

rest of his life. Time to make a stand and refuse to follow these archaic practices.

[nasajsc]

really? on my ex husband's and my ketuba (jewish marriage contract) i was given the price of 1000 ol israeli shekels by the kibbutz (1 NIS NOW!). the money in the ketuba is meant to be protection for the woman if she gets divorced, it is the minimum that the ex is supposed to pay as one time off payment. among well to do and well connected families, the ketuba price (bride price paid by the man) can be in the thousands or ten thousands. my sister, modern bostonian feminist, has a very well though out ketuba price. the ketuba is witnessed and signed by the men in the families and the rabbi.

the woman (in the old days) would bring her bride price with her to the marriage, and it would be hers again if it broke up.

dont think there is anything wrong with sin sod/bride prices.... the problem seems to be in how western men perceive the functional purpose behind it, and howit is used/abused by thai women with farang as opposed to thai husbands. i find that if a man doesnt want to pay the sin sod, he may perhaps have other problems with cultural differences between thais and the man's own culture.

whats the difference between a sin sod and an engagement ring that cost a couple thousand dollars of diamonds? its the same thing: a promise of marriage and money for the bride to keep if she needs it (u could pawn off the engagement ring).

the arab men here , when engaged to a girl, spend thousands of shekels on the presents they MUST give to their fiancee: expensive gold and diamond jewelry, tailor made clothes, cell phones etc. and these are modern men and women, fairly educated, good families, not fallaheen (field workers). it is expected by both sides. they MUST build a house and furnish it before the wedding is consumated. every guy working with us is busting his balls from the minute they have the engagement party until the wedding, usually a few years down the line.

a prenuptioal agreement seems to be the modern version of the sin sot. nothing wrong with that either.

bina

israel

So glad I am here and not there.

"whats the difference between a sin sod and an engagement ring" - an engagement ring is showing the girl you love her, it is not

expected by her parents, but is an expression of your love for her and your desire to be together. How is her daddy wanting 200k

baht an expression of love? he's going to blow it on rooster fighting and whisky anyways....

Edited February 4, 2010 by nasajsc

[whichschool]

Yes i think its a great idea, no one is going to deflower my daughter without buying her from me first.

4 chickens, 2 duck and a goat should clinch the deal.

Doesnt sound so nice when i see it in writing though.

[whichschool]

really? on my ex husband's and my ketuba (jewish marriage contract) i was given the price of 1000 ol israeli shekels by the kibbutz (1 NIS NOW!). the money in the ketuba is meant to be protection for the woman if she gets divorced, it is the minimum that the ex is supposed to pay as one time off payment. among well to do and well connected families, the ketuba price (bride price paid by the man) can be in the thousands or ten thousands. my sister, modern bostonian feminist, has a very well though out ketuba price. the ketuba is witnessed and signed by the men in the families and the rabbi.

the woman (in the old days) would bring her bride price with her to the marriage, and it would be hers again if it broke up.

dont think there is anything wrong with sin sod/bride prices.... the problem seems to be in how western men perceive the functional purpose behind it, and howit is used/abused by thai women with farang as opposed to thai husbands. i find that if a man doesnt want to pay the sin sod, he may perhaps have other problems with cultural differences between thais and the man's own culture.

whats the difference between a sin sod and an engagement ring that cost a couple thousand dollars of diamonds? its the same thing: a promise of marriage and money for the bride to keep if she needs it (u could pawn off the engagement ring).

the arab men here , when engaged to a girl, spend thousands of shekels on the presents they MUST give to their fiancee: expensive gold and diamond jewelry, tailor made clothes, cell phones etc. and these are modern men and women, fairly educated, good families, not fallaheen (field workers). it is expected by both sides. they MUST build a house and furnish it before the wedding is consumated. every guy working with us is busting his balls from the minute they have the engagement party until the wedding, usually a few years down the line.

a prenuptioal agreement seems to be the modern version of the sin sot. nothing wrong with that either.

bina

israel

Im in Arabland at the moment, and the well educated rich men from good families (like poor people are from bad ones) all have mistresses and their women are nothing but wallflowers with no role other then to knock out a few kiddies, do as theyre told and thats about it, maybe if us western men wanted a women like that then we'd be willing to put a downpayment at the start to enable us to be infidels. As bad as us Western men are we're saints and the most caring people in comparison to Arabs with a couple of camels to spare.

[ProfessorFart]

Why marry? Tell them you aren't Thai and in the West the wife's family pay the groom and if they refuse then they are upsetting your culture

...

[nasajsc]

Why marry? Tell them you aren't Thai and in the West the wife's family pay the groom and if they refuse then they are upsetting your culture

...

Great name! love it.... how did you come up with that?

On you point exactly - they are marrying a westerner, so they need to respect our culture too, especially those who

marry to leave here.

Edited February 4, 2010 by nasajsc

[ThailandTommy]

really? on my ex husband's and my ketuba (jewish marriage contract) i was given the price of 1000 ol israeli shekels by the kibbutz (1 NIS NOW!). the money in the ketuba is meant to be protection for the woman if she gets divorced, it is the minimum that the ex is supposed to pay as one time off payment. among well to do and well connected families, the ketuba price (bride price paid by the man) can be in the thousands or ten thousands. my sister, modern bostonian feminist, has a very well though out ketuba price. the ketuba is witnessed and signed by the men in the families and the rabbi.

the woman (in the old days) would bring her bride price with her to the marriage, and it would be hers again if it broke up.

dont think there is anything wrong with sin sod/bride prices.... the problem seems to be in how western men perceive the functional purpose behind it, and howit is used/abused by thai women with farang as opposed to thai husbands. i find that if a man doesnt want to pay the sin sod, he may perhaps have other problems with cultural differences between thais and the man's own culture.

whats the difference between a sin sod and an engagement ring that cost a couple thousand dollars of diamonds? its the same thing: a promise of marriage and money for the bride to keep if she needs it (u could pawn off the engagement ring).

the arab men here , when engaged to a girl, spend thousands of shekels on the presents they MUST give to their fiancee: expensive gold and diamond jewelry, tailor made clothes, cell phones etc. and these are modern men and women, fairly educated, good families, not fallaheen (field workers). it is expected by both sides. they MUST build a house and furnish it before the wedding is consumated. every guy working with us is busting his balls from the minute they have the engagement party until the wedding, usually a few years down the line.

a prenuptioal agreement seems to be the modern version of the sin sot. nothing wrong with that either.

bina

israel

Are you saying that before you can 'sling one up' your fiancée you gotta build a house? Yeah right!

Don't know about busting their balls, I bet their balls are at bursting point if they haven't had sex for a few years?

I must say that 1000 Israel Shekels ($267 USD) is cheap compared to 10,000 THB ($300 USD)

[ProfessorFart]

Nasajack,

Thats the rub. Too many fools think that because they are marrying a Thai that they have to do it all the Thai way.

Bottom line is that if she wants to marry you, then she'll do it for nowt.

Only fuc_kwits pay sinsod. Period.

[t.s]

really? on my ex husband's and my ketuba (jewish marriage contract) i was given the price of 1000 ol israeli shekels by the kibbutz (1 NIS NOW!). the money in the ketuba is meant to be protection for the woman if she gets divorced, it is the minimum that the ex is supposed to pay as one time off payment. among well to do and well connected families, the ketuba price (bride price paid by the man) can be in the thousands or ten thousands. my sister, modern bostonian feminist, has a very well though out ketuba price. the ketuba is witnessed and signed by the men in the families and the rabbi.

bina

israel

there you go again.

[ProfessorFart]

The whole issue of Sinsod makes me laugh.

Don't pay it. End of.

You have a culture too and that is sinsod free. Stand by it....

If she loves you she marries you for nowt, if she's a grafter then you're lucky you found out so you can move on to the next one.

[BigWheelMan]

Who cares about a load of gullible idiots who seem to have lots of money to blow on a dream and a maybe from an Internet dating site or bit of young nooky.

Sin sod or whatever they call it, is no different from many other scams, like the African, I have 10 billion dollars waiting in a bank for you, BUT?

I don`t care enough to vote on it and as they say; there`s one born every minute.

The only good part is that the mug is helping the economy of a third world country, but they won`t be receiving any gratitude or medals.

You pays ya money, you gets what you get and when the bank balance is $0, no one is going to feel symphathetic.

[ProfessorFart]

Who cares about a load of gullible idiots who seem to have lots of money to blow on a dream and a maybe from an Internet dating site or bit of young nooky.

Sin sod or whatever they call it, is no different from many other scams, like the African, I have 10 billion dollars waiting in a bank for you, BUT?

I don`t care enough to vote on it and as they say; there`s one born every minute.

The only good part is that the mug is helping the economy of a third world country, but they won`t be receiving any gratitude or medals.

You pays ya money, you gets what you get and when the bank balance is $0, no one is going to feel symphathetic.

Well put mate. Its almost as though these cretins think that by paying sinsod they will be accepted.

Again. Don't pay it. Marry for love. Don't be a f**kwit!!!!!!

[ozzieovaseas]

If you are going to compare Thais to our western culture where the wifes family pays, then what of all the other costs of being married in the west??

As the other poster said, cost of engagement/wedding rings against say 100,000 baht sinsod = AU$3000...not much change there...

BUT THEN some cases in the west the husband or couple will still be up for some of the wedding costs (alcohol for reception ect) in the high thousands or more if the lady is older or wifes family is not financial.

AND THEN the honeymoon (think you can rule out that cheap hotel in Pattaya )

AND THEN Western wifeys yearly birthday/christmas offerings?? not to be a cheap charlie here

AND THEN yearly holidays (might slip in the odd one to LOS )

AND THEN cost of real estate, housing loans, running two cars, insurance ect ect on and on

AND THEN when she's finished with your ars€ she takes half (more if kids) of any sh!t thats left

Im thinking back to what a poster once mentioned on one of these threads...If you marry a Thai its best to put aside a whole amount you can afford, (i think his example was US$10 000) for ALL expenses including Sinsod.

Dole out any incoming costs and demands as they come WITH the understanding to all involved that when the money for sick buffalo, pa's whisky, sisters braces ect ect

WHEN is gone ITS GONE..no more..niente...mai mee!

With this approach the thai wife might be a bit prudent how the money is dished out and when the initial amount is gone and you have had a good dose of married life Thai style you can take further stock of the situation and RUN LIKE H€LL if needs be

hopefully with cash for live for another day.

Crazy pool to be investing to much in a house here...in any case you loose 100%

[ProfessorFart]

Have you ever seen 'Dude, Wheres my car'?

AND THEN?

[nasajsc]

Crazy pool to be investing to much in a house here...in any case you loose 100%

good points mate, but you dont have to lose it all, when you buy land you get a life

long lease on the land/house, and you can kick her out if you want once you discover

she has a hubby back in the village somewhere, as under law you lease the house.

after you die or your 30 year lease is up, then she has the house, but you would have

burnt it before you moved out.

[473geo]

I guess for those that can afford to give it.......no issues......

Looking at this thread........it is those who don't choose to give that appear to want to make issue.....

[yeesipha]

Nasajack,

That's the rub. Too many fools think that because they are marrying a Thai that they have to do it all the Thai way.

Bottom line is that if she wants to marry you, then she'll do it for nowt.

Only fuc_kwits pay sinsod. Period.

I think its time to call this guy a taxi,mate and you live in thailand?if you do i think you need to take some time out of thai,because you dont respect there ways,northerner?well.....

[bina]

engagement rings were not for showing love. they were a promise, with an expensive amount of stone and gold that more will be forthcomeing once married, and a way to seal a bargain , usually made after requesting permission from a father/older brother.....

love was usually not a rerquite of giving an engagement ring. only in the past , maybe 40+ yrs, maybe even less, has 'love' been symbolized by an engagement ring, preferably large and bulky.

bride prices and dowries have been and always will be in existance. the form just changes. i think its practical.

yes, my ketuba price was low because kibbutz limits it. but in very rich families, the price is exorbitant and no woman worth her salt (or her parents as may be the case) will accept a low price

as for 'good families rich or poor': the wording was meant to mean families with educated men , as here rich and poor delineates modern from 'primitive' or 'country' or 'provincial' -- this isnt saudi arabia here.

and yes, the muslem men i know 'dont do it' until they are legally married, and being engaged doesnt allow that: and yes, the brothers help sometimes with the financing, but until the house is finished and furnished, no marriage... several of the guys here are buildign amazing houses, but theywont marry until 30+ when they finish the things. and yes, they were even in thailand, 'we can look, but not touch' was what htey told us. they spent most of their money on water ski ing (and got scammed actually, a few months ago) and buying jeans, and presents for their fiancees...

i dont understand why everyone makes such a fuss.... if u dont like the idea behind it, dont do it, or work it out with your wife ahead of time. its like my husband has to accept the fact that there are certain responsibilites i have towards my village, that cannot be chnged even if he hates them. when he married me, he knew and understood that.

oh. a friend got offerred five white camels for his 15 yr old daughter a few years ago, by beduins. white camels are very very rare. they were serious. he turned them down, politely.

bina

israel

ts-- at least my point of view is slightly different then those of the uk, ozzie, anglo bla bla.....)) - its good for u

[Birdman]

A marriage is the business of just 2 people and should depend on nothing else than on the willingness of the both involved. No need permissions from anyone, or dowries, gold, camels....it only depends on the wish of the couple. That should be normal, because it is an aspect of freedom.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Birdman

[tigerfish]

QUOTE(Tomissan @ 2006-09-27 01:52:36)

The first step in marrying a Thai girl is to have someone approach the ladies parents to discuss the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod."

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

As a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

Although some or most Westerner's disagree or don't like the idea of paying for a wife, it is Thai tradition. For more than 20 years I've been to many wedding ceremonies, including many family members and only once did I hear of the brides parents giving some of the Sin Sod back to the groom so he could start a business. In addition, Thai grooms usually give more than farang. The bride & groom share the gifts of money given to them at the Phitee Mun ceremony

[tigerfish]

QUOTE(Maizefarmer @ 2006-09-26 22:54:00)

For the benfit of all who didnt pick up on the other Sin Sot thread - read on:

Firstly, it is never a condition and no approving parent (rich or poor) cares two hoots about it.

Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for - and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start - it is gesture, made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.

It is about an expression on the husband to be's side to accept his role of care in the family - and that is a very traditional Thai (and South East Asian) practise (in reply to the forum member who questioned why in was so totaly oppisite to "dowry" as practised in places like India and Pakistan).

Yes, it is practised less and less nowadays, because the family structures are less and less what they were in the old days, but a lot of families do still practise it.

Where sinsot is practised honestly in Thai society, you will find that the parents in law often return most of it back with the other hand to the new couple as a wedding present - who suddenly find that the poor old dad (who hadnt a penny to his name before you married his daughter) has purchased them some land for them to build a house on - or it is spent in some other relivant context: to take the often poor abused buffulo (and the excuses which this animal provides), a rice farmer would buy his new son-in-law a "new" buffalo to pull the plough (if the one the son inlaw had was old).

And yes - fact it is practised more in the rural communities, where traditions have hung on a bit longer, but its practise has been across the whole Thai social status strata, and it is not limited to certain incoime brackets - so please dont hang onto the "poverty" comparison I have made - the key words are "relivant to the circumstances".

The point I am making is that it is traditonaly reciprocated by the parents in law - so if you are concerned and trying to establish whether or not the sinsot was conducted in its correct context - look out for some sort of reciprocation, because by and large it is returned to the couple in some way or another that would be of help and relivant to the circumstances.

That is sinsot in its correct place.

It is not about money - its about gesture, tradition, committement and a whole set of values related to you becoming part of that family. It is a serious matter which has no value if it becomes an "exchange of goods" as outlined in my first posting on this subject.

It has no legal value in the sense that it is part of Thai marrige law.

In reply to the forum member who raised the question why sinsot as a subject had been related so much to bar-girls - well the fact of the matter is that most instances of sinsot practised between farangs and Thais takes place between guys who marry bargirls - not all cases, but the majority - and this is the same group in which most marriages between ex-pat males and Thai girls take place (again , not all but most) - and it is against that background that most sinsot takes place out of its correct and proper context and/or role.

I hope that helps to put the subject into perspective.

Tim

--------------------

No I'm not drunk...... I'm just exhausted 'cause I've been up all night drinking

[a2396]

In most cases the demand for sin sod reduces the marriage down to issues of money and in many cases it is a “ take it or leave it” situation with the family refusing to back down from their original amount. The application of sin sod has quite different aspects when involving a Farang marriage vs. Thai to Thai. Normally, Thais would not pay for a woman who has been married before or has children. As has been stated on this board, it is not unusual for a family of such a woman to ask this of a Farang. In addition, Thais would not pay exorbitant amounts of 1 million + for a woman with little or no education or no job skills.

Not surprisingly one million seems to be a standard asking price when a Farang is involved. …and that is usually in addition to paying for the wedding and obligatory gold offerings. Later will come requests for family support, houses, cars, etc, etc.

One million bht is equivalent to approx $ 30,000 U.S. dollars. I doubt if an average middle class American would spend this on a wedding, let alone hand it over as a gift to the bride’s parents. If a Thai family is earning 20,000 bht per month, which I doubt is the case with rural families, one million bht is equivalent to over 4 years wages. To turn it around another way, if an American made $50,000 per year and he spent 4 years wages on sin sod, that would be $ 200,000 or over 6 million bht. A very unlikely scenario, except for the very rich.

If a man has got $30,000 U.S. ++ to blow on sin sod and plans on taking his lovely bride back home, where (if she can or will work at all) she will be making minimum wage, the guy is pretty set financially. So, in the end, it’s up to the man and his financial capability. Gents who have this kind of financial capability are not any average “Joes” that I know back home. Few have $30,000 ready cash, that they would squander for such a purpose, let alone $200,000.

[ProfessorFart]

#20, respect is a two way thing no matter where you live or who you marry.

#24 is probably one of the best posts I've ever read on TV.

[MrRichard2009]

My wife would be considered valuable for sin sod ..... Masters degree, high paying job in her field, virgin, lots of assets ect. I flat out told her parents I was not paying for my wife like a prostitute, I was polite but quite clear it was not negotiable, the usual line of we will return it and it's for show fell of deaf ears with me because as I explained to them I refuse to have a show paying for my wife like a prostitute. Eventually we were married and no one cared. With this line of reasoning I can't imagine parents who are not greedy not being able to understand. My approach was simple 1) I told them the practice was offensive to me. 2) I told them it should be offensive to them. 3) I simply asked if not allowing\blessing their daughters marrage because I refused to buy her like a prostitute was a good reason.

If you use this approach you have to make it clear to them that you understand how they feel but they also need to understand how you feel, and in the end isn't it really worse to force someone to buy their wife like a prostitute even if they don't think of it that way ? I think it also set a good tone for the future as everyone knew I was not going to accept the "it's our culture" reason for things I don't want going on in my house or life.

I have no problem if people want to pay, but if your like me stand your ground if your wife really loves you she will marry you eventually. It's not like you need legal permission !